Folklore/History: Irish Famine

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 09:01 AM

It sounds as though things have quieted down over there. I don't know about a ban on peaceful rallies and so forth. Shutting people down never seemed like a real answer to me. IMO, the penalty should go to the people who caused the violence.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 05:57 AM

Luckily we live in a place where almost everybody we meet is friendly, welcoming and a pleasure to be with - it's called Ireland - no suffering on our part - a little frustration and anger maybe .
Every place produces its particular breed of monsters, and usually even those monsters have a reason for being what they are - never went in for 'original sin'
As you rightly point out - The Famine + another 8 centuries of such events have a great deal to answer for.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 04:53 AM

Actually Jim, I was in the wrong to rattle on as if I understand what you're going through. I cannot really, because I haven't lived it. I'm very aware at this point that the hurt I feel over this situation is nothing compared to yours. But please know that I've been worrying about you and praying for you. You kept me up half the night, you blasted old fool.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 03:36 AM

Sorry if I misunderstood Susan - sensitive point.
I sat with people here in the mid-West of Ireland in tears at the time of the Omagh bombing - inhuman, unnecessary, and totally beyond our control.
The most insultingly distressing of acts of inhumanity are those that are done 'on our behalf' by the people we elect and whose wages we pay.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 05:28 PM

I'm not sure how you misunderstood me Jim. You're standing exactly where I expected you to be standing. I was saying that I'm right behind you. Maybe you didn't realize who I was addressing.

When this news broke, my Irish boyfriend (on mother's side) called me up and said, "Bono's head must be ready to explode." His favorite thing to say about Bono, well, there's actually two:

1.) "Bono, shut up and sing." And the other:

2.) "Can't say I've liked him a whole lot since he stopped being Irish."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:58 PM

"Then why don't you just get the hell out?!!!"
Sorry Susan - were in god's mane do you think I stand on all this/
I - my family as far back as I can discover, have supported Britain leaving Ireland - not from any nationalist or republican motive but a simple fact that when you draw a line across a country - any country bodies will continue to be brought home in black bags while that line remains.
By aunt and uncle (my father's sister and brother-in-law) fled Derry in the 1950s wheeling my cousin in his pram and leaving their entire possessions behind - driven out by anti-Catholic rioting thugs.
The present rioting - running from early last month, which has injured 50 police officers to date, is being carried out by Loyalist thugs who with to remain in Britain - as where the months long riots around the Christmas period were protests about the English Flag being taken down from Stormont.
Then, as now, the ploce have warned that "somebody is going to get killed if these thugs don't stop.
"Then why don't you just get the hell out?!"
Why don't "I" get out - for the same reason "ypu don't prevent your countryman from sticking lethal needles into (mainly black" prisoners in Texas, or why "you" describe the selling of lethal weapons to mass murderers as a "constitution right" - of course you don't - neither do I.
Are you sure you are addressing me - I thought the feller who defends what is happening in Belfast was getting married this weekend.
Tears are welling up in your eyes, - give us a break - tears have been welling up in mine for most of my life, around the "Glorious Twelfth" to be exact.
I sometimes wonder what life is like on the Planet Zog!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:20 PM

Troubles in Belfast Jim as I'm sure you know. And this is where I just have to say:

"You love Britain that much, after all this time and everything that has happened? Then why don't you just get the hell out?!!! It was never yours to begin with."

No apology. No respect. Nothing.

I am pissed off, as in eyes welling up with tears pissed off.

Looks to me like the famine is far from over. Cannot be forgotten. Not yet. Not until certain people take responsibility.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 09:10 AM

I can't comment on the facts of the Irish famine, other than to say that my part-Irish ancestry is a result of it, with a pair of great-great-grandparents emigrating from Naas in Kildare to get work in England.

But a read of Hobsbawm & Rude's "Captain Swing" (for example) should be enough to make anyone realise the contempt in which English agricultural labourers were held by the 19th century English ruling classes. The rise of agricultural mechanisation meant that thousands of agricultural workers were unable to find work. The answer to all that was to change the Poor Laws and set up Union Workhouses in which the same workers were treated like criminals - and I have contemporary family letters from the 1830s which document this quite clearly. Finally, in an attempt to get rid of the problem, mass emigration to colonies like Canada and Australia was devised by the clergy and local squires in East Anglia. In 1837 alone, around 30,000 agricultural workers left the country - relations of my direct ancestors among them (again fully documented in contemporary letters) - thus ridding the squierarchy of the "problem".

My point is not thread drift here - but to give yet one more example of the contempt and indifference towards the unfortunates of the time on the part of the ruling classes. As in England, in Ireland - but worse.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 04:53 AM

"I wasn't even born in the nineteen the century ,so don't blame me for the famine."
Or - "you're only saying that because you're anti-British" - invariably delivered in "you- versus us" terms especially if you happen to have moved elsewhere (not forgetting the centuries old servant/master relationship)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 10:59 AM

"I realize that the British had the same special contempt for any people they abused and exploited"
I'm sure that SJL doesn't mean that the British i.e. every English , Scot and Welsh person who has lived since the Act Of Union , had this special contempt for all races other than their own

A straw man argument gets thrown up against those who say that the British administration responsible for Irish affairs in mid-nineteenth Ireland should be held responsible for what happened in mid nineteenth century Ireland .It goes like this . "You whingers, why can't you forget your dreary steeples for once why do you hate us British ? I wasn't even born in the nineteen the century ,so don't blame me for the famine."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 03:39 AM

"If we say that "the British" did all these things, who are we really talking."
Them upstairs Susan - we're only 'the ants' as a barman once told me when I tried to buy a pint after closing time.
Thanks for the link - puts it in a nutshell really
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 08:57 PM

I grew up believing that the British had a special contempt for the Irish. That is how my Irish grandmother and Scot grandfather thought and I picked it up from them. But when I run across articles like the one below, I realize that the British had the same special contempt for any people they abused and exploited:

http://www.monbiot.com/2005/12/27/how-britain-denies-its-holocausts/

If we say that "the British" did all these things, who are we really talking. Do people necessarily have to own what their government does? I hope not because I'm not taking any of the blame for what those people in Washington are doing.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 09:29 AM

Sorry Susan - I really can't for the life of me see what on earth any of this.
The root causes of the appalling consequences of the potato blight ("God sent the blight but England sent the Famine" John Mitchel) were British mismanagement, indifference and possible intent.
Where is that changed by anything you've written - shouldn't we not talk or try to understand The Holocaust, The Famine, Bosnia, Rwanda, Sabra/Shatila, and reaching some understanding, should we not place the blame where we believe it belongs, if for no other reason that to take steps to see it doesn't happen again
Please explain - or maybe not!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 08:12 AM

Jim, consider this slightly modified point of view. And don't get mad at me.

I'm certain the peasant class of England suffered every bit as much as anyone affected by Great Britain's rise to imperial power worldwide. The sun never sets... That's why I keep bringing it up. I have said before and I will again that it's easier to accept mistreatment from a foreign entity than it is your own. The English peasants were driven from what had been common lands and herded into factories and used as slave labor. It was Tyburn for those who had other ideas. For centuries, the laws protecting property were prioritized over laws protecting persons (except persons of the upper class) but I'm sure you know all that.

The problem with memorials of genocide is that the cruelty and extermination is seldom confined to an exclusive target group and we miss the point by making it primarily an ethnic or political thing. For example, Jews may have been Hitler's most despised target but there were lesser targeted groups who suffered and died just as tragically. Still, you see many Jews who protect that most targeted status to the point where they don't really recognize the suffering of these other groups, especially if it is a group they can identify with the ethnicity or political status of the perpetrator.

I have seen the same thing with Ukrainians who don't recognize what the Soviets inflicted on ethnic Russians on Russian soil. And of course we see it with the Irish who feel especially targeted but who in the great scheme of things were probably not more so than other groups, South Africans for example. In most cases this special targeted status carries ethnocentric and nationalistic overtones which are not the highest purpose for remembering victims and what they endured. It is something rather that should speak to our humanity - individual and collective- without such pronounced political and
ethnic divisions.

And Cheers to Keith and his new bride! Mnohaya Lita! Many Years!

There are several versions of this song on youtube but this my favorite one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jo-FfSflLo

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 04:20 AM

much of the political material I am aware of were made by educated activists - Casey, for instance, who were writing them in English by the bucketful.

Exactly!

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 04:12 AM

You have the advantage over me there Martin - have struggled with an understanding of Irish language songs via Ian Lee's classes during the Willie Weeks, but like many other things in my life, it's something I should have paid more attention to much earlier.
Having said that, English has been a part of Irish culture for a long time now, after all "we've been together now for - 800 years"!!
Would very much like to know more of this.
My comments on political songs were not necessarily aimed at the 'ground level made ones anyway; much of the political material I am awae of were made by educated activists - Casey, for instance, who were writing them in English by the bucketful.
I haven't pursued the Northern situation either where a bi-lingual situation seems to have been far stronger for far longer.
Best
Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 03:30 AM

Jim

I have absolutely no problem with your long-championed argument as to the importance of local composition of song – though the situation in Ireland is clearly complicated by the late switch to English as first language and the late arrival of mass education. What I AM sceptical of, in the absence of evidence, is the suggestion that there was a significantly political content in such work. As implied earlier, I think that the undoubted flowering of such composition through the twentieth century may well have been triggered by the rapid expansion of nationalism post-1916. The huge emphasis on school teaching of the more polemic nineteenth century songs (both in Irish and English) in the National Schools post-independence will have provided a good seedbed thereafter. They were still at it when I started school in 1950!

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 08:42 PM

Jim, did you know that Keith is getting married this Saturday? Cease fire!

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 08:21 PM

" musical context just doesn't make sense without some evidence."
What evidence can there possibly be Martin, apart from the evidence that we have to hand you can't prove a 150 year old negative. The same applies to present claims that virtually all (92%) of our folk songs originated on the broadside presses because the printed versions to hand predate the oral ones - this was before any serious collecting was ever carried out prior to 1899 - no evidence because there was no reason that there ever should be.
It flies in the face of reason that people suddenly where making songs by their hundreds (in Miltown) in the 20th century, yet didn't a decade or so earlier.
I still find myself reeling at the number of songs that we have learned about that have virtually no precedent in print or have never been found elsewhere, almost certainly because of their local nature.
Do you know any other versions of The Rineen Ambush (four separate versions here) The Wreck of the Leon (1 version in currency, 1 reported but not recorded and two hand written, framed and hanging in the porch of Quilty Church)
Everbody knows French's 'Are you Right There Michael' - I've never come across Straighty Flanagan's 'West Clare Railway' elsewhere.
Our late neighbour 'Paddy Mac' used to call in on Sunday evenings on his cuirdh (spelling?) and invariably would bring a tatty sheet of paper bearing a local song, 'The Drunken Bear' springs to mind, (a local reprobate who was barred out of every pub in Miltown when he went on a spree).... or further afield - The Bobbed Hair ,dating back to a hairstyle popular in the 1920s and apparently originating in the Corofin area
We included over half a dozen of these on the albums we compiled - 'Paddy's Panacea' and 'Around the Hills of Clare' - we rejected twice as many good ones because we realised they would not make sense to anybody who wasn't from here.
There was a half-serious attempt to compile a booklet of these for the forthcoming 'Gathering' - god save us from the ghosts of our ancestors!!'
I know these are all 20th century examples, but most of them are not part of political upheavals or national events - just the desire to set out experiences, feelings - etc. poetically and pass them on, even if only for a short time.
Shouldn't have started this at this time of night - I'll never get to sleep now - where's the whiskey bottle?
We are hoping to get to the Frank Harte weekend and almost certainly will be at Knockroughery - will see you somewhere before too long, no doubt.
Best to Josephine
Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 04:11 PM

Jim, you had no cause to apologise.
It was not bickering.
We compared historians' views of the famine.
I understand and respect that it is an emotive subject and an horrific event.
I had to challenge your statement, "I believe this to be a truly remarkable ballad which, along with songs like Skibbereen, reflect a return to the spirit of rebelliousness following the degradation and horror of the Famine, evictions and forced emigrations.
They are an indication of a determination to obtain independence; "

Would you make that statement again?

Not trying to argue.
I am not in your league on the songs.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:50 PM

Keith
Re The Croppy Boy : I suspect you're thinking of The Galtee Mountain Boy.

Jim
That there was a sub-repertoire in that sense, I have no doubt - especially in areas where opportunities for singing/music were regular. But speculation as to what it consisted of, or how strong it was, is idle without evidence. They were probably as eclectic as some of those among whom you've done such excellent work. Extrapolating the post 1916 republican fervour backwards in a popular (as distinct from polemic) musical context just doesn't make sense without some evidence.

Regards

p.s. A pint or two would certainly help to tease out the problem - you planning on Frank Harte Festival this year? ;>)>

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:21 PM

"You joined in too Jim. Remember?"
As I pointed out and apologised for - your turn (in my dreams!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:17 PM

Keith - I have no intention of continuing your attention seeking game, particularly as you haven't even bothered to acknowledge my comments on your serially-destructive behaviour on this forum - not even to deny it.
I see that someone else has expressed similar views on how you wreck thread after thread, as you have done here.
Without attempting to argue Martin's comments - I'm more than happy to bow to his superior knowledge on the couple of songs he pulled me up on - as I said, the list was off the top of my head - (of course I knew Bold Fenian men was wtitten by Kearney; some of my family were friends of the Behans - my uncle, Pat Hannen watched him run naked in the snow around the Arbout hill parade ground for a couple of cigarettes)
Fred is of course right about Croppy Boy (thank you Fred) and there more than enough pre 20th century songs to render any suggestion of their being "rare" absolutely hilarious.
Nuff said - go and say what you don't have to say to someone else - I really can't be arsed with you anymore.
Martin.
re your 'local songs comment' (I'm not sure this wouldn't be more usefully dealt with where there aren't any precocious children in the room (not you Fred)
As I said, we have recorded or otherwise gathered dozens of 20th century locally written songs here in West Clare over the last thirty years on all subjects from a railway train (no - not Percy French - same train though) to Rineen, (Miltown) and The Leon (Quilty) (four of each of those last two).
We have been told of earlier songs that date back into the nineteenth century though few of these survived the events (unless someone bothered to write it down) - the one about the Stackpole murder at Spaniish Point springs immediately to mind.
Nobody can argue that a sub-repertoire (local) existed from the beginning of the 20th century, and I can't possibly see how anybody could give a reason why one shouldn't have existed earlier - man, especially working man, has always had the desire to produce artistic representations of his experiences as far back as the cave paintings, and as far as vocalising those experiences poetically, we have no reason to believe that he/she didn't do this as well.
I confess I found this 'sub-repertoire' a total revelation - I never came across it in Britain to any significant extent, though I now believe it existed in abundance, but didn't spread because it had no relevance outside the immediate areas. Nor was it 'collected' because it didn't line up with the know 'folk' repertoire.
Irish and Scots Travellers (and some English) were still making specifically 'Traveller' songs right into the 1970s
Folk song scholarship emerged in an organised form in Britain in 1899. As far as I am able to find, there are no major published collections of songs in Ireland apart from those published in The Irish Folksong Journal (early 1900s) and I'm not sure how representative of what was sung around they were.
The point I am making in my long-winded way is that we have nothing to gauge what was sung from what was gathered
I'm aware of of the work of McCall and Bunting, et al.
We have no idea what was made and sung locally prior to the beginning of the 20th century, but there I believe it can be stated with certainly that something certainly was - there was no reason whatever that rural bards with their protest songs suddenly sprang out of the bushes in 1916.
By the way - whoever mentioned it, John K Casey's ('Leo's') 'The Rising of the Moon' along with several other songs of Irish rebellion was published in 1869.
Sorry this is so rambling Martin - Liverpudlians aren't very good at multi-tasking
A pint sometime maybe?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:09 PM

I only knew the Paedar Kearney Bold Fenian Men.
The one they sing in that John Ford, John Wayne cavalry film.
Sorry.
I have been looking back at our discussion of this in 2008.
You joined in too Jim. Remember?

Thanks Fred.
I was sure I had heard of a Croppy Boy from the Civil War.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 01:00 PM

McBurney's dates are b. 1855 d. 1892.
I assumed the "Bold Fenian Men" was that of Michael Scanlon (1836-1900).

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 12:12 PM

Woah. Hang on a minute. It's true that The Bold Fenian Men comes from around 1916, because that's roughly when Peadar Kearney wrote it. But which Croppy Boy are you on about? There is actually two entirely different songs with that title.

One was written I believe by an Irish poet named William B. McBurney, aka Carroll Malone, in 1845. That's the one which concerns a confession given by a Croppy to a priest who turns out to be an English army captain. In any event, it predates 1916 by 71 years.

Regarding the other CB. Zimmerman, Songs of Irish Rebellion prints several broadside texts, all of them undated unfortunately, but we can say without equivocation that it was in print long before 1916.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 11:40 AM

Keith

Croppy Boy is about Civil War post 1916.
Bold Fenian Men is post 1916.

Wrong on both counts.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 11:14 AM

Kerry Recruit is in no way about "determination to obtain independence."

Take another look at your list Jim.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 11:09 AM

and that' just off the top of my head - are you completely insane?
Not me.
Croppy Boy is about Civil War post 1916.
Bold Fenian Men is post 1916.
Rising of the Moon already mentioned.

That is off the top of my head.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 10:13 AM

Jim

I agree completely about 20th C. - of course. I simply make the point that I know of no evidence of a similar tradition before that. The list you supply for Keith largely reinforces my basic point, being largely polemical ballads written and published for mass consumption.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 09:59 AM

"I know of no evidence for this, pre-20th century"
Sorry Martin, can't possible agree.
Places like Miltown have literary hundreds of songs (still in existence) that have been made throughout the 20th century and have never moved from the area because of their parochial nature - not only do I see no reason why this has not always been the case, but I believe that much of our national repertoire has come from such local events, but have 'slipped under the wire' and taken root elsewhere (rather than having been made by 'hacks' as some people would have us believe.
I believe that this 'desire to record'is very much a part of what we are - where .
Would be delighted to discus this with you - here or over a pint
Best Jim

Keith
"pre-20C songs about British rule are rare."
Boolalavoge, The Croppy Boy, Kelly From Killane, Rising of the Moon, Who Fears to Speak, The Suit of Green, The Kerry Recruit, Dunlavin Green, Bold Fenian Men, Manchester Martyrs, My Old Fenian Gun, Rody McCorley, General Munroe, Billy Byrne of Ballymanus, Shan Van Vocht, Patrick Sheehan, God Save Ireland.... and that' just off the top of my head - are you completely insane? All of these can still be heard in any singaround and drunken boozy session anywhere – both sides of the Irish Sea and beyond.
These songs and hundreds more make up a significant percentage of the Irish repertoire, in England as well as in Ireland and are a small part of a greater number not generally sung, but well documented.
These do not include the ones I mentioned that have not been fully documented because they deal with the many local events that took place during the centuries long period of English occupation – and I haven't even mentioned the Protestant repertoire which deals with British rule from the other side of the fence.
If you are so unaware of this at to make a crass statement such as you have just made, why get involved to the extent you do – it's certainly not to learn anything – you don't read what people write
Maybe it's to show that British rule was accepted and welcomed wherever the flag flew maybe? That is the dominant message in all your postings
We've just been debating a country-wide tragedy that proves beyond doubt that it wasn't.
I tried to revive this thread by bringing in songs that I believed to be relevant to the subject – Susan and Mick obliged and I thought it might work, but there you go again – making the crassest of crass statements on a subject you obviously know nothing whatever about.
Once again your limpet-like stranglehold has sent yet an attempt to prevent yet another thread from crashing in flames.
Why do you do this – why do you deeply involve yourself in intense debates, dominate them and then finally admit (hide behind) your self-confessed ignorance - do you hate this forum so much?
Trying to debate on a serious topic when you are around is like trying to have a conversation in the presence of a fractious, attention-seeking infant.
Again our sterile bickering has driven away people who have a genuine interest in an important subject
I would like to deeply apologise to those who would liked to have continued with this subject from doing so because they been driven away by our childish bickering – I would like think you will do the same – but you won't – you simply don't do that sort of thing.
I would also like to think it won't happen again – it probably will.
Apologies to all – for now, and the next time, and the next time...... it happens.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 08:18 AM

Political songs about Irish struggle date back centuries, many of them never moving further than the towns and villages were the incidents took place

I know of no evidence for this, pre-20th century. Broadsheet ballads and songs/poems-set-to-music published by those associated with various political movements (Young Ireland, Fenianism etc.) - certainly; songs written in exile, yes. The tradition of local accounts of local events I associate with the War of Independence, Civil War and subsequent events.

Can you think of a few examples of what you mean, Jim?

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:56 AM

So, not well known songs then Jim.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 04:26 AM

True Martin, but the point remains, political songs about Irish struggle date back centuries, many of them never moving further than the towns and villages were the incidents took place
These remain largely unpublished and would make a study on their own - fancy the job?
Best
Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 04:06 AM

Mind you, most of the common "1798 songs" were written for the centenary.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:42 AM

"but it was rife in medieval Ireland." - practiced almost exclusively by English landlords - including landed gentry.
"I said that pre 20C songs about British rule are rare."
You could fill several dozen shelves with pre-20th century songs about British rule - more than a shelf of these would be of the 1798 rebellion alone - go read a book!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:25 AM

What Jim?

Droit du seigneur was never customary in England, but it was rife in medieval Ireland.
You can not blame it on the English, but some people always will.

I said that pre 20C songs about British rule are rare.
The Glenswilly song is one such, the author being an activist.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 01:53 PM

'Nuther black hole that's been plumbed to its limits
Bye Keith
Jim Carloll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 11:10 AM

But nowhere, except probably Tsarist Russia, was the droit du seigneur practised more openly and brutally than in Ireland. In Ireland the landed aristocrats were backed by the English army of occupation, and enjoyed the rights of conquerors as well as the old feudal rights of great land-owning aristocrats

"army of occupation" is Tosh.
It was one nation.
Half the army was Irish.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 08:52 AM

Susan,
Sorry – find the Bea(s)tles unbelievably bland – would send me to sleep if it wasn't for their their pseudo American – cum – watered-down Scouse didn't irritate me so much
Droit du seigneur was claimed to the common practice of in rural Ireland English Landlords, "surpassed only by Tsarist Russia" by
Jim Carroll

Quinn and Droit du seigneur ~ Quinn, The Lord of IT and Life is beyond the law.
Posted on August 27, 2012 by dialogueireland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur

The French expression Droit du seigneur roughly translates as "right of the lord", but native French prefer the terms droit de jambage ("right of the leg") or droit de cuissage ("right of the thigh"), in reference to the exercise of this supposed right. The term is often used synonymously with jus primae noctis which is Latin for "law of the first night".
A few days ago I was talking to a person who was telling me without thinking about it that Quinn thought from the earliest days that he had Droit du seigneur. This led me back to 1988 when I met a very beautiful woman who had done the massage course and observed that Quinn would have liked to have exercised the ("right of the thigh"), with her. To protect her anonymity put it this way if her partner had heard about it Quinn would have had a contract put out on him. Quinn did not practice this in the original sense of the "law of the first night" but in the sense that he had the right to have any woman he wished regardless if she was married, engaged or a virgin at any stage but usually when he could control the milieu. It was not always him who exercised this right, other males around him also did this and he was in some cases second in line. He regarded himself as not being above the law but beyond the law. This person who told me this was so conditioned he did not in any way think it strange that this was type of stuff happened. Added to this was the fact that in his early days he was able to use his Jesus Christ aura to mystify women and get them to go places they were unable to resist.
http://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2011/12/15/the-origins-of-tony-quinn-at-templeogue-house/


We have alluded to a woman who was involved with sex magic who has been affected psychologically since the early seventies. I have interviewed her personally and will publish her story when it does not harm her in any way. I have a witness who was present the next morning and heard how frightened Quinn was of retaliation.
Recently and in conversations with women and in the comment section these issues have been alluded to.
If any one has flash backs about this and taking into account what is been written about the guilt and the fear you have about speaking about this, do contact us and we can put you in touch with women who can travel with you.
http://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2012/08/27/quinn-and-droit-du-seigneur-quinn-the-lord-of-it-and-life-is-beyond-the-law/

Arthur Young was born in London worked at Kings Lynn. He wrote widely on social matters in England and France and travelled extensively. His book ,"A Tour in Ireland" in 1780 was highly acclaimed. He criticised heavily the landlord class and sympathised with the plight of the lower and working classes. All this evoked much debate . He claimed that 'droit du seigneur' was commonplace in rural areas of Ireland at that time. For the first time the focus was on rural life in Ireland, rather than on that of Dublin.
http://www.colaiste-na-ngael.com/iris6/answers.html

But nowhere, except probably Tsarist Russia, was the droit du seigneur practised more openly and brutally than in Ireland. In Ireland the landed aristocrats were backed by the English army of occupation, and enjoyed the rights of conquerors as well as the old feudal rights of great land-owning aristocrats.
http://www.ricorso.net/rx/az-data/authors/m/Molloy_MJ/life.htm

Young went on to describe how some landlords were sexually abusing Irish women over whom they had power: 'Landlords of consequence have assured me that many of their cottiers would think themselves honoured by having their wives or daughters sent for to the bed of their masters, a mark of slavery that proves the oppression under which such people live.'[17] This was reminiscent of the times in ancient Britain when nobles had enacted laws like jus primae noctis (right of the first night), which gave them the right to have sexual intercourse with a woman serf on her wedding night - and the medieval custom of droit du seigneur which allowed the feudal barons to do the same. Young showed how similar practises - and worse - were going on in Ireland towards the end of the 18th century.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 07:31 AM

So Keith, does this Droit du seigneur fall under "general treatment of tenants"?
No such right existed.
If true it was an abuse of his position.

He was a tyrant.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:58 AM

So Keith, does this Droit du seigneur fall under "general treatment of tenants"? What a ghastly thing. I first learned about it from watching Braveheart. I was sitting there saying, "You've got to be kidding me! Who ever thought of such a cruel thing?"

Jim, you didn't even like McCartney's song, "Give Ireland Back to the Irish"? It was banned in Britain if you recall. The Liverpool accent always sounds like the speaker is slightly bored :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 02:49 PM

The full story of the shooting and the assassins is given here.
http://www.loughrynn.net/id41.htm

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 12:59 PM

"One of his assassins was identified as having distinctive red hair"
I seem to remember that was 'Rory' - name fits the colour.
"....every man had shaved off his hair."
Latter day Croppies!
There's an excellent little booklet (134 pages) entitled the Third Earl of Leitrim by local (Donegal) man Liam Dolan (1978) which may still be floating around - we used to have two copies but gave one away, otherwise you would have been welcome to it.
We do have an article about the Ballad by AL Lloyd, and numerous other bits and pieces, which you are welcome to copies of - if so, PM me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 12:39 PM

there's a mudcat link with a similar Glen Swilly verse here, Jim . thread.cfm?threadid=42118

One of his assassins was identified as having distinctive red hair according to a story I heard about Lord Leitrim, which I haven't been able to verify. The authorities rounded up locals the next morning to find that every man had shaved off his hair. They all kept their heads shaved until independence.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 10:58 AM

Don't think I've come across that one Mick.
I find I have 15 variations on the theme - yours may well be among them, but if not, I'll add what you sent
The version that bears the 'S' number in the BBC(may well stand for 'secret'), is the one recorded from Thomas Moran of Leitrim.
I used this and a 'lament' type version in a talk I once gave on song and history - lovely contrast in approach to the subject.
I'd give my right arm for a decent recording of the other, sung at a live concert my a great singer, Thomas Creamer.
One of the legends connected with the killing was that one of the assassins was 'Rory of the Hill' who was a victim of Clements' 'Droit du seigneur" when his wife was lawfully 'broken in' by 'is Lordship on their wedding night.
Jim Carroll

Lord LEITRIM
Thomas Moran, Mohill, Leitrim

O you boys of the shamrock, give ear to my ditty.
Be alive to your duty, be wise and be witty.
You keep your powder dry and we'll make the tyrants fall,
And we'll give them what Lord Leitrim got up there in Donegal.
To me whack fol the dero, fol the riddle dee.

It being on All Fools' Day the debaucher left his den,
Leaving gamblers, bums and harlots in his castle of Lough Lynn.
To make his men courageous he gave a hellish call,        
Crying:   "We'll tumble all the cabins up in County Donegal 1"

'Twas but a few hours after, old Meehan he did say:
"Oh, my lord, I feel a horror we'll meet Rory on the way.
"His lordship then made answer in the presence of Kincaid, Saying:
"Of Rory or the devil, sure, I never was afraid."

On the second day of April the old viper passed this way
Till he came to Gortha Wood at an angle of the sea.
There stood Rory of the Hill, who never feared a ball,
To protect the decent widows in the County Donegal.

When Rory saw them coming, sure, his heart did jump for glee.
He cried: "Three cheers for Tenants' Rights, Home Rule and liberty!"
And then as he approached them he made a low salute,
Saying: "Where are you going today, you stinking ugly Orange brute?"

Oh, this monster's face began to foam, his venom he did spew,
And he roared out in a hellish tone: " Come tell me, who are you?"
"Well, my lord, I'm Rory, That makes you welcome all
To a bloody dose of bullet pills up here in Donegal. "

"Spare us our lives," says Meehan, "Bold Rory, if you please."
"Oh no, for if you lie with dogs you're sure to rise with fleas."
The gay boys behind the wall, oh, they was laughing at the joke,
Saying: "Today we'll blow this bugger off with powder, ball and smoke."

"Come, all my boys," says Rory, "Make ready, present and fire!"
At his lordship's brain they took aim and hurled him in the mire.
"Upon my word," says Rory, "Wasn't that a splendid crack,
To see Lord Leitrim, Meehan and Kincaid all a-tumbling on their back? "

This old degrading viper deep down in the mire did crawl,
Calling, bawling, cursing God and the boys of Donegal.
To end the joke, his skull they broke and his carcase they did maul,
And in a pool they threw the fool up there in Donegal,

"Well done, my boys," says Rory, as he turned to the sea,
And they got in their little boat that calm at anchor lay.
They paddled their own canoe and they got a speedy shawl*,
And "Hurrah, my boys," says Rory, "For the girls of Donegal!"

Oh, the polismen like beagles gathered round this dirty beast,
And the devils all, both great and small, they had a sumptuous feast.
The haled him down in hell like a bullock in a stall,
And the devils ate him, rump and stump, that night in Donegal.
To me whack fol the dero, fol the riddle dee.

* Several versions concur that the word is "shawl ". Its sense eludes me. Perhaps it has special local meaning?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 09:07 AM

It is those cruel English laws that blight our native isle
Must Erin's sons live always slaves or else die in exile?
There's not a hand in all the land to strike for liberty
Since Leitrim's lord like a dog was shot , not far from Glenswilly

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 08:52 AM

Thanks for that Mick.
Coincidentally, I knew nothing of this incident until a couple of months ago when I stumbled across a copy of 'The Veiled Woman of Achill' in a local charity shop - haven't got round to reading it yet.
There were many hundreds of documented incidents such as this, and many more undocumented ones that have survived in oral tradition.
The killing of William Clements, Lord Leitrim, (the landlord who was said to have practiced Droit du seigneur - the putative legal right allowing the lord of a medieval estate to take the virginity of his serfs' maiden daughters) probably being the best known.
I find it amusing that, to this day the BBC have a recording of a ballad of his assassination by one of Ireland's finest traditional singers which their index notes as being "scurrilous" and will only allowed to be played with special permission - and it's the Irish who are described as "bearing grudges".
Would very much appreciate some for information on the song.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 08:18 AM

It reminds me of Lyncheahun ,Jim.
I'm Lynchahaun ,I'm Lynchehaun , I'm just your very man.
I'm Lynchahaun I'm Lynchehaun, come catch me if you can.

They seek me here they seek me there , they seek me through the land
But I was with them searching for the famous Lynchehaun

A cattleman from Mayo was taken for me twice
while I was laughing at the foe and that was very nice
and then as well, down in Clomell they spied a railroad man
They stopped the train but all in vain
For here was Lynchahaun

They seek me high they seek me low, they seek me far and near
And every place I leave behind , I write Lynchahaun was here

..............
"It was almost a decade since Agnes MacDonnell and the Valley House had made national and international headlines when the landowner was brutally attacked and her home set on fire on the night of 6 October 1894. James Lynchehaun was convicted of the crime in Castlebar Court in 1895 and sentenced to life imprisonment."

http://www.theirishsto

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 05:29 AM

My impression is that songs "of a determination to obtain independence" did exist pre 1916, but quite rare.

I can not see it in those last two.