Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed

Subject: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:57 AM

George Osborne's own Office for Budget Responsibility reports today that current policies to restrict immigration will leave our ageing population completely screwed, with an increase in national debt from 75% of GDP to 99% by 2036. More net inward migration is needed as the report notes that immigrants are more likely to be net revenue contributors. Love to say "I told you so"

http://cdn.budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/2013-FSR_OBR_web.pdf

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:58 AM

Oh shit that should have been BS - would a mudelf please fix?

------------------Done. Mudelf-------------------

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 05:07 AM

I totally agree. The vast majority of immigrants come here to work, not to rake in the benefits, and they are a major asset to this country; culturally as well as economically.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:15 AM

I would suspect that the UK experience is similar to the German one - recent immigrants generally tend to be well educated for the most part. It's only now that the unskilled are starting to arrive, and they certainly have a will to work which is unfortunately exploited by unscrupulous people.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:19 AM

What a surprise!

Exactly what I've been saying for twenty years past.

I'm (somewhat unusually) with Richard on this one.

LOVE to say I told 'em so.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 01:03 PM

This isn't an attempt to defend immigration on pragmatic grounds; IE., we'll let them in as long as Britain is a nett beneficiary. I would far rather argue the case on humanistic grounds and say that they are people just like us, except that they are often escaping the most unbelievable poverty, and deserve every chance they get.

However, two pieces of information worth bearing in mind:-

1. Many recent/forthcoming immigrants come from Eastern Europe. The pattern of immigration there is for people to migrate for a limited period, say four or five years, work like buggery to earn as much money as they can, and then go home.

2. Many recent/forthcoming immigrants are well educated young professionals who are moving here to start careers. I don't think anyone has established an immigration pattern for these people yet, but they are the type of people who would be a good solid asset to any nation.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 02:44 PM

Ok. Damn and double damn. This love affair with Bridge. ... it will end in tears I know.

In the meantime.

The NHS goes from not enough to training too many clinicians. But to secure a safe effective service, the visa issues in getting doctors is excruciating. Those from countries with a similar standard to us in training, Indian sub continent, USA etc we have issues getting them in under immigration criteria yet those from Eastern Europe where professional regulators have problems with levels of training, wr have to accept their qualifications.

Perhaps the right wing newspapers who are bleating today at the state of health care should make a link to their usual bleating about immigration.

We need specialists in many areas, we can, believe it or not afford them but Home Office stand in the way.

Foreign doctors and nurses in this country pay shed loads of tax and support local economies. Interesting. ....

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 05:25 PM

There is supposed to be a legal requirement that everyone gets at least a minimum rate per hour. This needs to be properly enforced, with all the loopholes blocked, and draconian penalties on any employer who fails to ensure all their employees get that minimum.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 06:38 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draco_(lawgiver)

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 07:10 PM

Where will people live?

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 02:23 AM

I heard you may have a spare bedroom Keith?

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 04:43 AM

The whole immigration issue was manufactured by the right-wing as part of their desire to manipulate using fear as the motivator. Similar to the way welfare and it's recipients have been wildly misrepresented, and now they've moved on the NHS, which the tories especially hate.

They've just sold off our blood supply, in which we are (er, were) self-sufficient to an American private equity firm founded by Mitt Romney (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/is-there-no-limit-to-what-this-government-will-privatise-uks-blood-supply-sold-to-/). This is NOT a specialist firm.

If this lot stay in much longer, we will, as the great sage once said, be well and truly fucked.


"Where will people live?"

In your house. Boo!

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 05:28 AM

So you are saying, "housing crisis, what housing crisis?"
I am already letting a room in my house, but that has made no noticeable difference.

We do already have a massive shortfall in housing, and we have to produce enough new jobs, houses, roads, power stations, schools, hospitals, fire and police stations, water supplies, waste facilities etc to meet the needs of a new Liverpool every year, just to stand still at the current rate of population growth.
We are not even coming close.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 06:02 AM

"Osbourne wrong"
Why single him out?
Every party has committed itself to reducing immigration, because it has been too high they say.
That includes Labour. Milliband stated that the last government had been wrong about it.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 06:11 AM

See?

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 06:18 AM

See what Richard?
Did I get anything wrong?
Sorry, please put me straight.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 07:21 AM

"We do already have a massive shortfall in housing"

We do, but net immigration doesn't increase the pressure on housing by any large amount. I'd love to see hard, peer-reviewed evidence that it does.

In the meantime, we have no significant state-owned social housing stock as we did before Thatcher sold it off and we became a nation of unregulated landlords. This is a problem created by short-termist politicians, not immigration., who have allowed thousands of unregulated landlords to fuck over the people and the state. However as these people are the natural constituency of the tory party, they let them carry on their parasitic business.

It amuses me greatly to see so many people believe the tories when they go for the low-hanging fruit to scare the witless, unquestioning gorps that believe their propaganda. Immigration, disabled people, benefit claimants, Muslims and christ knows who else are used as scapegoats by these nasty sods. They're even trying to resurrect the cold war to justify the white elephant that is trident.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 07:44 AM


We do, but net immigration doesn't increase the pressure on housing by any large amount. I'd love to see hard, peer-reviewed evidence that it does.
I'd love to know how adding more people could fail to increase the pressure on housing!

Thatcher sold the council houses, but she did not pull them down.
They still exist but there is a massive shortfall in the number of houses compared to the number of people.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 07:59 AM

Britain is far fom self-sufficient in both energy and agriculture. Young people are struggling to get on the property ladder. The National Health service is overstretched. Our roads are congested. The country is a trillion pounds in debt. The more the population increases, the more we have to import as a proportion of what we consume. To pay for this we have to export more and more goods per head of population. This does not appear to be happening, at least not sufficiently to bring the national debt under control. It seems to me we need more immigration like a hole in the head.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 10:26 AM

"I'd love to know how adding more people could fail to increase the pressure on housing!

That ain't evidence. Fail.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 12:05 PM

"Young people are struggling to get on the property ladder. The National Health service is overstretched."

Interestingly, when I needed a plumber and electrician to work on my house renovations, they were both Polish. My GP and my eye consultant are also immigrants. Personally, I'm grateful they are all here.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 12:08 PM

Evidence.
People need houses to live in.
There are already not enough houses for the all the people to live in.
Add even more people, AND THE CRISIS AND MISERY CAN ONLY GET WORSE.
Please point out the flaw in that logic.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 12:13 PM

leveller, are you comfortable about depriving countries like Poland of their doctors, trained at the expense of those much poorer countries, so that we can get health care on the cheap.
I find that despicable.
I think we have a moral obligation to train our own.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 02:27 PM

You're talking bollocks, as usual. How do you know where they were trained? I'm not depriving anyone of anything. People have the right to make their own decisions about where they wish to live and work. Obviously you think its OK to deny people that choice - unless, of course, they happen to be born in the UK. There's a name for that sort of attutude.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 02:44 PM

Hello leveller, long time no argue! However, I agree with you entirely!

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 03:31 PM

It is not me talking bollocks leveller.
It is you getting your treatment by depriving the poor abroad.
It is not just me who finds that "morally indefensible."
BBC 2005

"Doctors' leaders have strongly criticised the continuing reliance on medical staff from developing countries to fill NHS vacancies.
British Medical Association chairman James Johnson said taking much-needed staff is morally indefensible.

The BMA says African nations in particular are being damaged.

Last year two thirds of newly-registered doctors, and more than 40% of nurses, came from abroad.

About 12,500 doctors currently registered to work in Britain are from African nations that face serious staff shortages themselves, said the BBC's Mike Thompson.

And, over the last six years, nearly 16,000 African nurses have registered to work in the UK.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 03:07 AM

At Consultant level, at least 4 my wife and I have been referred to came from abroad, and excellent they were too.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 03:27 AM

This is an enquiring post, not an opinionated one: but as I understand the last post ~~

Bonzo agrees with leveller et al: he thinks we "need" [thread title] immigration in order that he and his wife can enjoy the "excellent" services of "at least 4" consultants who "came from abroad".

Have I got that right?

Where 'abroad'? Do the people wherever it is not ever require the excellent services these consultants might have provided? Have they so many consultants of their own that they can spare us these? Have we no consultants of our own who could have furnished equally excellent service? If so, where are they practising? If not, why not?

As I say ~~ just enquiries. I am a little exercised as to these situations & assertions.

~M~

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Ian Mather
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 03:42 AM

Note not Musket.

Just on the doctor training issue.   The Royal Colleges predict and then the deaneries apply to be able to fund. The upshot is that predictions can fall wrong and are based on 10 year old assessments. 10 years ago, everybody was convinced that by now there would be better integrated care, more support in the community and proactive primary care. Hence not training as many for an A&E consultant role. We all know that for various reasons, many of which are political, that isn't the case so we have vacancies that are difficult to fill.

That is an example using today's crisis of the week. Emergency care.

What is also in the BMA report is their complaint about overseas trainees not joining BMA (it is the doctors trade union) As well as taking doctors trained in other countries, which does have a moral dilemma, we also provide training for those who come under visa, are trained and go back to their country. It is good business for the universities and we get service from them whilst junior doctors.

Something I am not quite so informed about is education overall. To get into medical school requires the highest grades of the highest achievers. Our universities in general bemoan having to run foundation courses to get 18 year old to a level of education so they can start properly. Medical schools cannot do this. Are our schools developing children sufficiently?

Something else The BMA point out is that with consultants being well remunerated, and so many of them immigrants, the tax take and contributing aspects of immigrants is far higher than newspapers would have you believe.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 03:45 AM

Once again, facts and common sense (by Keith), versus, ideology byeveryone else!

The point made by Keith regarding the drain on poorer countries health capabilities, falls on deaf ears.....so much for "liberal" egalitarianism.
Is it a case of we're all right Jack?.....or is it less expensive to bring medical staff from overseas than train our own?

Never forget the immortal admission by the Blair (Labour?)govt.
"WE must have increased immigration to make ourselves more competitive in the global economy!"......Its all about money.

Mass immigration is all about driving down living standards....I know it, you know it.....why do you try to excuse it.

Of course, due to the "financial disaster" living standards are going to plummet in any case, so, would we not be better to take the opportunity to rebuild oor society, rather than attempt to prop up the facade by using cheap labour and professionals traned at the expense of people much poorer than ourselves.

Too liberal for the "liberals"?

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 04:40 AM

Immigration. Knock it off. Give us your tired and your poor. Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free ..,

God Bless America. This is our country. We take everyone.

Immigration act. Do you expect us to side with you? We are ALL immigrants. There were people here before you came. Wise up.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket getting bored now
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 04:51 AM

Ok. Once more.

There is a moral issue in attracting overseas professionals where poorer countries than ours have invested in their training. What the flying fuck that has to do with liberalism is beyond me.

There is a proud tradition in the medical schools of providing training for those who then return to practice in their own country. The visas are tight and this happens, regardless of what you read. You can't go underground and retain your GMC number. We are paid for training them and our hospitals get good junior doctors work out of them. In England, over 20% of junior doctors in hospitals will practice abroad.   We in return need specific speciality doctors that have not come through the system yet, hence attracting overseas candidates.

The worst dilemma out of interest is the Cuba South Africa Europe triangle.   Cuba have an excellent medical school. They can ill afford to run it but they do. Due to treaties it is easy for a Cuban doctor to work in South Africa for more money and a better life. There are vacancies because many South African doctors come to The UK and Germany. ...

The Indian subcontinent has about parity. People crossing between The UK and back is little different in percentages to those crossing between hospital trusts in a region of The UK.

Regarding rebuilding The UK. We need to be competitive in the world market to be able to afford to. Circular argument. ..

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 05:47 AM

"Regarding rebuilding The UK. We need to be competitive in the world market to be able to afford to. Circular argument. .."

Worthy of the infamous Tony B Liar himself.

Competition will not get us out of this one!
Unless of course the populace can be persuaded to live in corrugated iron shacks, sell their children into industrial slavery and accept payment in their rice bowls!

Wecome to the reality of global Capitalism.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 05:59 AM

In spite of the unemployment problem and the recession, many employers just can't get UK-born workers to work for them. I'm thinking particularly of the industrial-scale agricultural areas such as Norfolk and Lincolnshire. The folk who ARE prepared to turn up reliably, work in freezing cold or boiling hot conditions in boring and tiring work for a minimum wage are the immigrants from, for example, Eastern Europe. The huge greenhouses growing tomatoes or lettuces are full of them, poor souls. In the open fields you see gangs of them chopping sugar beet or sorting spuds. The farmers are glad of them, and British lads wouldn't want such work. The cockle-pickers in say Morecombe Bay and other estuaries are often immigrants. As for the NHS, we've had excellent dentists at our practice from Bulgaria, India and South Africa. One wonders why British people trained as dentists don't fill the jobs. Maybe they've shoved off to the USA for better pay and conditions?

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 06:14 AM

I suppose what you are saying Eliza, is, get the fat lazy bastards out of their designer trainers, track suits and expensive disability scooters and herd them out onto the cotton fields of Kent or the mudflats of Morcambe.....I have a lot of sympathy with that, but not without completely changing our social and economic system, which protects the rich "drones" who have cost the country much more than our fag smoking, beer swilling, media stupified brethern.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 06:20 AM

I made no judgement one way or the other akenaton, about the British who don't want that type of work. I merely stated the case. I did say, 'poor souls' as I have every sympathy with workers of any origin suffering in adverse conditions. But the immigrants who do so are contributing heroically to our economy. If they were all booted out, where would we be?

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 06:21 AM

""and draconian penalties on any employer who fails to ensure all their employees get that minimum.""

Well MGoH, that would certainly tend to ease the housing situation, since Draco advocated the death penalty for almost every offence.

It would also have a beneficial effect on traffic congestion, if universally applied to illegal parking and motoring offences.

Maybe this Draco bloke had something.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 07:57 AM

I dont think anyone is suggesting that all immigrants be "booted out" Eliza, but the conditions of entry, access to benefits and sheer numbers of entrants needs careful scrutiny.

Just yesterday, I spoke to a young Scots lad who was labouring in a local builders merchants yard....he told me he had been through uni and had reasonable qualifications, but there were no jobs available.

He appeared to hold no malice for the system which had allowed this state of afairs to come about...in fact he said he was really enjoying the manual work and the camaraderie. He said he was lucky to get a job at all as most of the "low skilled" jobs had been taken by the local East European contingent. He said it had become like a "closed shop" for manual labour, whole families and associates working for the larger industries like fish processing.

I know the guys who runs the builders merchants which is long established and they try to employ as many local young people as possible.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 08:13 AM

So we must base our policies on the experience of one bloke in Scotland. Oh and a racist policy of one builders merchants based on bollocks in The Scotsman about other industries.

I wonder if my wife will be classed as a foreign trained doctor if Salmond gets his vote?

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 08:30 AM

I didn't say anything to you Ian, simply having a civilised discussion about a complicated issue with Eliza, tho' before long i'm sure everything will be simplified into "equality" and "inequality"....with further discussion prohibited.

"Orwellianism rules"

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 08:41 AM

By the way, do you really think it is racist to try to provide employment to the sons and daughters of local families who cannot find employment?
These men grew up with the fathers and mothers of the young local unemployed. Given employment they will provide the next generation of our community, unlike the immigrants who regularly return home after a few years.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket trying to be civil
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 11:14 AM

Equality of opportunity. It's in the last SNP manifesto to uphold commitment to equal chance to obtain a job based on merit.

When I was in business, my shareholders quite rightly required that we obtained the best person for the job. Those who can perform best help keep the other employees in a job and keep shareholders happy at the same time. The best person for the job could include local knowledge, credibility with customers and better communication skills, but get the job on merit, not on who the daddy is on the birth certificate. Funny that Etonian ministers are frowned upon for the same reason....

Oh, you weren't talking to Eliza, you were posting on a thread and your comments are open to scrutiny by all, as ever.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 02:30 PM

I think gradually, in the far future, The World will be seen as one country. Ebb and flow of populations with different skills and ambitions will occur as needs arise. Many of the countries from which immigrants arrive have actually many good resources in minerals, oil, agriculture and technology, but the endemic corruption allows the few rich to grab all the benefits and deny the poor any kind of decent life. If all this could be sorted out, almost every nation would have something to develop and trade. Looking at UK at the moment, the population is ageing, and we do need young incomers. The birth rate for example has risen (according to statistics) due to the immigrant families not waiting until their thirties to have children. I feel this is a good thing.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 05:41 PM

"he thinks we "need" [thread title] immigration in order that he and his wife can enjoy the "excellent" services of "at least 4" consultants who "came from abroad".

They just happen to be part of the consultancy team at our local BMI hospital. As far as I know they come from Egypt, India, Southern Rhodesia and possibly Saudi Arabia. But populations are moving, never more so than in the present, so I don't see the problem.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,musket again
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 06:31 PM

Under The Health and Social Care Act 2008 and before then The Care Standards Act 2000, the private hospitals under practicing privileges have preferred to use consultantswwith NHS contracts working in their spare time. Having NHS contracts, they don't need to appraise or provide training etc

Very rare to have a consultant in private practice who isn't an NHS consultant for at least 10 sessions per week. Mind you, most private hospitals need to rely on NHS work to survive.

We all want good health care yet many politicians and media fail to see how the international aspects in many ways help solve most of the problems.

Mind you. .. when we were in New Zealand a while ago, we started looking in estate agents windows. . They are crying out for my responsible adult's specialty. Professional workforce planning is truly international these days. My parents never worked far from where they were born. I have lived abroad and my brother hasn't worked in The UK since the late 70s.

Times change and immigration is and always has been a factor.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 06:41 PM

The United Nations should finally respect land rights, make all economic/CAPITALIST immigration illegal, and help genuine asylum seekers to their NEAREST safe nation.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 08:01 PM

"Equality of opportunity"....thats a fucking laugh!

How many ex comprehensive schoolboys/girls are in the govt?
How many Old Etonians in the cabinet?

"Equality" is a myth.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket getting his tuppence worth
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:37 AM

Yeah. Equality has its drawbacks. Equality in education means you are capable of using a keyboard.

Why so bitter? Why find a target (any political viewpoint you could generalise as liberal) and blame it for society's ills?

Or are you just blaming yourself for not using the opportunity to get a better suck on The UK nipple?

Immigration? Fucking liberals. Gay equality? Fucking liberals. Akenaton's predicament? Fucking liberals.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 05:08 AM

I don't think there is any factual evidence to back this up. I can only speak about my own town, Eastern Europeans have found it is more profitable to claim incapacity benefits and D.L.A. Many bring aged relations over so they can claim attendance allowance for them and have a better standard of housing provided by the taxpayer. The local maternity unit of our hospital witnesses the breeding for benefits programme by Eastern Europeans on a daily basis.

Crime in our area has increased dramatically, ATM thefts, sexual crimes, robbery and stabbings. Eastern Europeans have brought much to Britain, all of it we could do without might I add.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 05:40 AM

I, Ian, have been very fortunate.
I have a very happy and fulfilling place in our community, brought up with socially conservative values and from a loving family home.
Politically, I am still very much a socialist, but have come to realise that political and social issue are better separate. Since the advent of "liberalism" in the sixties societal structure has weakened, and only our economic prosperity prevented a social disaster years ago.

The prosperity has gone for good and the social anomalies are going to have to be tackled.
Time for a change.