Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,cujimmy
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 07:35 AM

Ive been helping homeless people in Bradford for 19 yrs, this is similar to what I see.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LapHYVbnCBo

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 12:04 PM

I have never criticised immigrants.
I think you made that up.

When we discussed the street grooming and trafficking of children I stated from the start that it was nothing to do with Islam.
I have never criticised a Muslim for being Muslim.
I have criticised objectionable behaviour in Muslims, Jews, Christians and many other groups.
No prejudice from me.

Your assumptions about be are wrong.
Go check.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 11:28 AM

Keith, you never miss an opportunity to criticise immigrants or Muslims. What else should I call you?

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket confused
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 05:28 PM

The iPad was me. The elves have removed the empty post I accidentally sent above it.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Allan Conn
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 05:20 PM

"20/20 hindsight"

Thanks for that!

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Fucking iPad!
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 03:19 PM

Try again..

ONS figures are used by some government departments. Practice population by others. The difference is far wider than the 50,000 you are arguing the toss over. Neither represents the population.

We don't know the population, we accept either estimate when planning relevant services. Immigration affects the real population. We don't know what that is any more than we know the numbers in or out.

Granted, you need to hang your point on whichever figures can be manipulated to support your prejudice and fear mongering.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 12:43 PM

Musket, you might not be happy with ONS census data, but no-one knows how to provide better.
The immigration stats. have been criticised for the margin of error (35 000 not 50 000 as I said previously) because of the sample size (I think 50 000 of which only 5000 were migrants.)

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 12:30 PM

Keith is no xenophobe and did not say that.
While we were discussing immigration and housing, that very issue was reported in Daily Telegraph, so I posted it without comment.

How does that invite the ludicrous, false description of xenophobe?
You are very quick to label someone you disagree with, rather than actually disagreeing.
That would require you to think of course.
Labelling is so much easier.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 10:29 AM

Xenophobe Keith says " Nearly half a million immigrants have been given taxpayer-funded homes over the past decade, it has been revealed. "


And how many have left them again?

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 09:01 AM

Except The Commons Public Accounts Committee.
Except The Audit Commission.
Except me actually, yes.

Me and the other 1.4 million NHS employees, the vast majority of whom are aware of how practice populations don't match census populations which don't match local government populations. Background to how The NHS works and why forms induction training for all, and GP lists forming the registered population is day 1 Topsy & Tim info.

If they did match other population figures, planning of services would not be so fraught with difficulties. You forget too the number of people, including indigenous British people, who drop out of society, don't wish to be on the radar. Drop in clinics for specific health issues are used to seeing people for other primary care concerns as some people don't want to be "on the system." Sad indictment of how society is seen as big brother, and I don't just include new age travellers and illegal immigrants. After all, in the scheme of things, there aren't enough to get excited about. Unless it suits your agenda.....

Don't talk about population figures without stating which. As a rough guide, if we accept a population of say 60,000,000, and apply the 5% margin for GP practices to get up to date eventually, that figure alone has a tolerance of 3,000,000.

Makes your 50,000 look as irrelevant as your argument.



Allan. Whilst I have not always agreed with the real you on some matters, I apologise for thinking the above was you. 20/20 hindsight, it isn't consistent with your usual contribution.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 06:51 AM

I note Keith apparently thinks that anyone who ever receives "social housing" stays in it for ever. How surprising

How stupid of you to note such a stupidly wrong thing Richard.
How surprising.

How can population figures be accurate if net adjustments (in/out) cannot be trusted?
Immigration figures are calculated by sampling at ports and airports.
The criticism is that the sample is too small leading to an error margin around 50 000.

Population figures are produced by ONS using census techniques on a very large scale, and you will find that no-one from any quarter has ever questioned them.

Except, now, you Ian.
Still laughing?

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 06:27 AM

I've been the victim of identity theft on this board myself. So I'm happy to accept that whoever posted that message, about benefit offices and Eastern European immigrants, wasn't Allan Conn. However, he or she would have done well to read through the earlier messages on this topic.

If he or she had done so they would have found a message from me refuting the notion that significant numbers of Eastern Europeans will be coming here to live on benefit. For the benefit of the blinkered and the bigoted, and anyone who just plain can't see common sense, here it is again.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This isn't an attempt to defend immigration on pragmatic grounds; IE., we'll let them in as long as Britain is a nett beneficiary. I would far rather argue the case on humanistic grounds and say that they are people just like us, except that they are often escaping the most unbelievable poverty, and deserve every chance they get.

However, two pieces of information worth bearing in mind:-

1. Many recent/forthcoming immigrants come from Eastern Europe. The pattern of immigration there is for people to migrate for a limited period, say four or five years, work like buggery to earn as much money as they can, and then go home.

2. Many recent/forthcoming immigrants are well educated young professionals who are moving here to start careers. I don't think anyone has established an immigration pattern for these people yet, but they are the type of people who would be a good solid asset to any nation.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 05:51 AM

Again the last post in this thread was not posted by me.

_____________________________________

The bogus posts have been dropped. The troll seems to be stirred up again. Ignore him and just let a moderator know if you see a fake post in your name. ----mudelf

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 04:58 AM

I note Keith apparently thinks that anyone who ever receives "social housing" stays in it for ever. How surprising.

Building council houses would be a damned good idea - and it would stimulate economic activity as well.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 04:38 AM

Keith...



Ha Ha HA HA {chortle}    Oh dear, {wiping eyes.}

How can population figures be accurate if net adjustments (in/out) cannot be trusted?

As I asked above, which population figures do you mean anyway? There's more than one official government population measure. When I started interfering in The NHS, it amazed me to find the registered population (those registered with a GP) can be allowed to be out by 5% before GP practices had to make adjustments. (GP practices were remunerated (GMS) based on pratice list size.) The Audit Commission always qualified health authority (and later PCT) accounts where GP practices were quick to add babies to the list to get paid for them but were not so quick at dropping dead people off, as the system allowed them to work within 5% or so....

Allan. 7 Million coming over? err... Bollocks? The government do not expect that number, not even 5% of that number. The conservative party have used that figure, as have UKIP, BNP and others with an agenda, but just because the conservative party have people in the government, their political posturing is not government figures. The conservative party do not represent the government, they merely work for it. The Home Office is pointing out the measures in place to prevent mass migration from Eastern Europe. The Polish government is moaning about the numbers going back to Poland.

Germany is where the nervousness stands, as they will have to give them full status, unlike the Turkish workers there now. In any event, one of the many facets of EU status is the infrastructure rebuilding programs, so Bulgaria and Romania have jobs a plenty for the near future. OK, we are paying for them, but hey ho, we don't pay all we should be as equal partners, so we are let off lightly.

There shall be some. yes. A family from The Netherlands bought a house near me the other month. Perhaps I should put a Union Jack flag outside my house to make them feel more welcome?

(If Michael is reading this. Yes, I know it isn't a Jack unless it is on a UK registered ship in international or foreign waters.....)

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 07:39 AM

I have not given any immigration figures, just population figures which are not at all in question.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket trying to do technology
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 05:23 AM

I notice the migration figures are being doubted. Not much of a mental leap to question immigration figures as they are extracted from the same sausage machine.


So lets stop bandying crap statistics eh?

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 04:27 AM

So Jim do you deny we have a crisis of housing and homelessness?

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 03:34 AM

"There are some empty houses"
Around a million - there are no figures whatever to indicate where these houses are, so once again you are making up facts.
The fact that that figure has all-but doubled in a coule of years shows conclusively that the housing crisis is down to Government (of all persuasions) incompetence and not immigration.
Immigration is as significant to this crisis as is predatory investment, the crisis caused by political incompetence and corpotate banking greed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 03:59 PM

telegraph 14 hours ago.
Half a million immigrants given social housing in the last decade
Nearly half a million immigrants have been given taxpayer-funded homes over the past decade, it has been revealed.

Four million migrants arrived in Britain between 2001 and 2011, and of those 469,843 were given social housing
The news comes as the waiting list for social housing hits a record 1.8million, most of whom are British born.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10205963/Half-a-million-immigrants-given-social-housing-in-the-last-decade.html

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 03:55 PM

Jim, there a housing and homelessness crisis in England.
Everyone including your guardian piece agrees.
There are some empty houses because they are in the wrong places, as much good as all those empty new estates in Ireland.

I say again, if you deny our housing and homelessness crisis you are proved a dogma bound fool.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 01:09 PM

""Latest figures from Holland show that its population density was 395 a square kilometre in 2002 and 393 in 2005. It is estimated that English population density will rise to 464 people for every square kilometre by 2031.""

There are seven countries in Europe more densely populated than the United Kingdom, as shown in the link below.

They are, in descending order, Monaco, Gibraltar, Malta, Jersey, San Marino, The Netherlands and Belgium.

""Beyond Europe, England's population density is among the highest in the world for major countries. England ranks third in density after Bangladesh (1,045 per sq km) and South Korea (498 per sq km).""

Anybody who doesn't go in for cherry picking statistics might enjoy looking at the 49 countries listed in the link below, all of whom are more densely populated than the United Kingdom.

Infoplease list

These figures are per square mile rather than square kilometre, but the ratio is the same.

The list is dated 2007.

Converting the UK figure of 650 per sq mi to sq km

you get 251 per sq km. OK so the figure of 395 for England is credible.

However the Netherlands, in 2007, according to that list was 1259 per sq mi. which converts to 486, certainly higher than England and almost double the UK figure. And the Netherlands was No 6 of the seven European countries above the UK.

I think that Telegraph figure was somewhat creative, indicating a rather nasty agenda.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 12:57 PM

Should read a millon
Jim Carroll

But Monbiot fails to mention that across Britain there are close to a million empty homes, and enough abandoned commercial buildings that could be converted into half a million new dwellings. These have far greater potential to create homes than filling up spare rooms. The number of empty homes has increased over recent years. Under-occupation has too, but not to the extent Monbiot claims. Relying on one figure in a report on energy use, Monbiot says that "between 2003 and 2008 there was a 45% increase in the number of under-occupied homes in England". But the English House Condition Survey shows an increase from 31% in 1995-96 to 37% in 2008-09.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/13/housing-crisis-empty-homes

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 12:47 PM

"For God's sake, either put up some facts to refute what Keith is saying, or get back in the creche!"
You too are choosing to ignore them
Your stareter for 10
Half as million empty houses
Care to comment?
We're all aware where you as a Socialist (sic) on immigration.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 11:59 AM

""I tell him that most of what they are taught is correct, but we have come to accept our way of life as "personal freedom" and "equality".

What else can I say?""

How about:

1. "Different strokes for different folks".

2. "Live and let live".

Either of which is better than you trying to promote equality(?)

Don T.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 11:55 AM

For God's sake, either put up some facts to refute what Keith is saying, or get back in the creche!

To attempt to negate everything Keith says by shouting racist, is childish...and boring.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 11:47 AM

"If you deny we have a housing and homelessness crisis you are a fool."
And to continue to ignore that fact that there are half a million empty habitable houses and refuse to acknowledge that this fact not only is a main cause of homelessness in Britain, but that any Government that continues to ignore that fact makes you either extremely dishonest or extremely stupid.
To attempt to ignore this fact and blame immigration on homelessness is to be an agenda driven..... well, it's fairly obvious to all here what you are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 11:46 AM

""They'll never change eachothers' viewpoints, so why continue with insults and vituperation?""

1. Because we don't want Mudcat hitting the top of the search engines when people google "Racism".

2. Because we don't want people to get the idea that we are supporters of these low lifes.

3. Because there's a vanishingly small chance of opening a mind that is currently tight closed by inherited hatreds.

You see Eliza, one or two of us care enough to want to clear filthy prejudice out of here.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 10:52 AM

What's the problem with housing associations? Are the common people not fit to live with?

Jeez, Bonzo. I can just picture you on your hind legs berating one and all at the convocation of the middle class worthies of Worthing or whichever leafy tree lined suburb you decided to put roots down in. "We don't want any asylum seekers/illegal immigrants/benefit cheats/bedroom tax dodgers/scroungers/layabouts/gypos or any of that scruffy lot they call the working class. Nice round your way is it?

You'd have been in your element in California in the days of the dust bowl.

Vigilante Man. Words and Music by Woody Guthrie

Have you seen that vigilante man?
Have you seen that vigilante man?
Have you seen that vigilante man?
I been hearin' his name all over the land.

Well, what is a vigilante man?
Tell me, what is a vigilante man?
Has he got a gun and a club in his hand?
Is that is a vigilante man?

Rainy night down in the engine house,
Sleepin' just as still as a mouse,
Man come along an' he chased us out in the rain.
Was that a vigilante man?

Stormy days we passed the time away,
Sleepin' in some good warm place.
Man come along an' we give him a little race.
Was that a vigilante man?

Preacher Casey was just a workin' man,
And he said, "Unite all you working men."
Killed him in the river some strange man.
Was that a vigilante man?

Oh, why does a vigilante man,
Why does a vigilante man
Carry that sawed-off shot-gun in his hand?
Would he shoot his brother and sister down?

I rambled 'round from town to town,
I rambled 'round from town to town,
And they herded us around like a wild herd of cattle.
Was that the vigilante men?

Have you seen that vigilante man?
Have you seen that vigilante man?
I've heard his name all over this land.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 09:47 AM

We own our house and we do not want any houses in our road falling into the hands of a Housing Association.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 07:41 AM

Migration Watch UK.

mmm There's an independent source... Interesting that he knows more about economics than economists. Presumably economists know more about blaming vulnerable sections of society for all society's ills....

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 06:50 AM

Commenting on the report released by the Office for Budgetary Responsibility,(subject of Richard's OP) Sir Andrew Green, Chairman of Migration Watch UK, said:

"Once again the OBR has given only part of the story. It is true that, in the medium term, migration provides a larger pool of working age people which increases tax revenues. But, of course, migrants also get old so to maintain the same ratio of working age people to older people would require an ever increasing number of migrants each year.

On their immigration assumption of 140,000 a year we would add 14 million to the UK population in their 50 year time scale which is nearly a quarter of our present population.

All studies of the pension problem have concluded that the only way to tackle it is to increase the pension age as expectation of life increases. Furthermore the public have made it perfectly clear that the social and environmental consequences of continued mass immigration are unacceptable to them.

It is time that economists understood this."

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 04:23 AM

6 June 2013

Government figures released today show that the number of homeless households in England has risen by 6% over the past year, to the highest in five years.

The figures also show a 14% rise in the number of people living in B&Bs. Shelter is warning that cuts to the housing safety net, added to the rising cost of housing, are already having a real impact.

B&B-style accommodation often means a single room for an entire family with no cooking facilities and a shared bathroom, sometimes miles away from their jobs and support networks. Though there is a legal requirement limiting this to six weeks for families, many have to stay in this situation for weeks, or even months.

Shelter is also worried that today's figures mask a further group of 'hidden homeless'; families who have lost their home but may not be counted in official statistics due to recent changes in the way councils handle homelessness applications.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 04:18 AM

The more people you have the more houses you need.
That is a simple and obvious fact.
If you deny we have a housing and homelessness crisis you are a fool.
It is also an insult to our desperate, homeless families.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 03:09 AM

You are the one making the accusations, you justify your claims - I don't have to - innocent until proved guilty - isn't that the way things are done in Britain?
Justify your claims that immigrants have a detrimental effects on the housing crisis in Britain; I have given reasons why they don't.
I say that it is a long-term situation caused by political indifference and corporate greed -
You have made a nonsensical claim that there are "no houses available in Britain", I say there are half a million habitable homes standing empty and have provided evidence to that fact - a pretty conclusive indication as to where the blame lies for the housing crisis (or are immigrants the cause of them not being occupied - I'm sure you are capable of making up some 'facts' to show they are if you set your mind to it)
Prove your statements or withdraw your hate-generated claims - though, as I said, you are far more likely to walk away from them - as you always do.
"I just asked, given that we do not have enough houses for those here already...."
Seems like only yesterday you were claiming there were none - oh, it was only yesterday.
Once again you've shown yourself to be the small-minded, racist little shit that you are - I'll settle for that.
I have little doubt you will continue to milk this subject for as long as anybody responds to you and will insist once again on having the last word, as you always do.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 04:34 PM

I assume nothing.
You stated that immigration has no effect on our housing crisis.
Please justify that amazing theory.

This thread is about increasing immigration.
I just asked, given that we do not have enough houses for those here already, where would they live?

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 03:30 PM

I take it we've away from the nonsense of there being no houses available! Don't suppose you'd like to comment on your misinformation - no? I thought not.
"Net immigration is 250 000 every year."
You assume, as you would, of course, that all immigrants enter Britain without support, without having families to assist them and offer them accommodation, without having the wherewithal to purchase some of the half million unoccupied houses that are presumably on the market - in fact, that their presence will be an immediate strain on the resources of the country - not true of course, certainly not the community conscious, hard working and resourceful Asian communities.
Of course there will be refugees, economic or otherwise, who will rely on assistance to start out, but the vast majority manage to make their own way without state assistance.
I've know some of them, especially those in the catering trade, who will live over their employers premises until they find their own accommodation - very common in restaurants.
There is no evidence whatever that they are a strain on the well-being of the country other than the shit poured out by the BNP, EDL, the scabloid press and scum like you.
Wonder if this appears familiar?   

"The current open-door policy and unrestricted, uncontrolled immigration is leading to higher crime rates, demand for more housing (driving prices out of the reach of young people), severe extra strain on the environment, traffic congestion, longer hospital waiting lists, lower educational standards, higher income taxes, lower wages, higher unemployment, loss of British identity, a breakdown in community spirit, more restrictive policing, higher council taxes, a shortage of council homes, higher levels of stress and unhappiness and a more atomised society."
http://www.bnp.org.uk/policies/immigration

Homelessness, paedophilia, terrorism - and everything else you and your kind put down to immigration have always been a part of the way of life of the lower paid in Britain - certainly much longer than the first passengers from The Windrush set foot on British soil   
Of course, your phantom friend who only appears to give you the backing you are not getting elsewhere (as long as he doesn't actually have to commit himself, of course) might be able to put me right from leafy Cambridgeshire – stranger things have happened!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 02:49 PM

stopping immigration tomorrow would not make one iota of difference to the housing shortage

Net immigration is 250 000 every year.
How could it not "make an iota of difference" not having to find a bed and a roof for a quarter of a million extra people every year.

Immigration is the main factor driving our ballooning population, so obviously it does make a very big difference to the lack of homes for so many people.

You have chosen to live in a country bigger than England, with a whole population less than half that of London, with many thousands of brand new, empty houses, and with a substantial NET EXODUS!
You are not well placed to lecture us on the need to increase our immigration.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 02:37 PM

Aaaarrrrggghhhh ~~ it was not so when Neil did reign and this old hat was new...

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 02:16 PM

Michael. It cringes me to read your post, so it does.

There were never any bluebirds in Britain other than the ones Vera Lynn set free near Dover for the cameras. Apparently wiped out by a single sparrowhawk.

Lemonade fountains. That's a different story. Made by Wunderbar with up to 12 buttons although the multi hose gets stiff at that level...

Just thought I'd get that in before the expat with attitude points it out in all seriousness.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 01:49 PM

pre-Thatcher Britain, when homes were regarded as just that - homes, and not investments.
Jim Carroll

Oh yes ~~ and the bees buzzed in the cigarette trees and the soda water flowed from the fountains by the lemonade springs where the bluebird sang...

Get real, eh Jim?

As if!

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 12:18 PM

"Whatever the causes, Ireland has spare houses, but England has none."
I have no idea where your figures came from but according to Shelter as reported in the Guardian there are a quarter of a million habitable homes lying vacant - there are no figures for how many there are in need of repair in order to make them habitable, but you can bet there are at least that many again.
There are also no figures available for how many vacant non-domestic properties are available for demolition in order to produce land for domestic building.
Another fact to be taken into consideration is that immigrants in general do not build, so the question of there being no land for building purposes does not enter into the equation as far as they are concerned.
A policy of producing affordable homes and a will to tackle the problem is what is needed, not cutting back on immigration.   
And as I have said and you have chosen to ignore over and over again, stopping immigration tomorrow would not make one iota of difference to the housing shortage, real or imagined; what is lacking is not the homes, but rather, the will to tackle to problems of homelessness.
This would mean a return to pre-Thatcher Britain, when homes were regarded as just that - homes, and not investments.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 12:08 PM


On the subject of racial purity Keith - none of us are %100 pure - now lay off

I have always known that stuff Jim.
I have no issues about "racial purity" and "on the subject" is made up by you.
We were never "on that subject" and I would never contribute to a thread that was.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 11:26 AM

The empty houses in Ireland are the direct result of predatory banks overlending in the good times, largely for second homes;

Whatever the causes, Ireland has spare houses, but England has none.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 11:22 AM

you have more than enough room to alleviate overcrowding in Britain if the will was there to do so,

No we do not Jim.
Wiki.
"The official figures[6] from the Department for Communities and Local Government for England (not including the rest of the UK) are that on average 498 people sleep rough each night, with 248 of those in London. There are a total of 84,900 households (which may contain more than one person) that are classified as homeless"

There are not 84 900 spare houses.
And we have 470 000 EXTRA people every year.

If you deny that England has a severe housing shortage and desperate homelessness, you are an ignorant fool.
If you do not deny it, where will you put even more people?

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 10:46 AM

"The Scots integrate fully" As do the English in Scotland. Many a Scot has English parents or at least one English parent and they are no less Scottish for that. Integration is basically seemless. Others aren't accepted quite so readily. It is down to racial, cultural and religious differences. No such great massive difference between English and Scots so no real serious discrimination is present. You do still get a tiny minority (ie like the obnoxious Siol nan Gaidheal group) who would look to repatriate English incomers - though you could probably fit the entire bunch of that shadey lot in the back of a couple of buses.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 09:11 AM

" but England is the most crowded country in Europe"
The mindless repetition of this and the constant and deliberate ignoring of the fact that there are many houses standing empty for want of attention only underlines your on-going agenda of making immigrants the enemy of the British way of life. Throw in the fact that there is also a great deal of built up, but unused property that could be used for domestic building and you have more than enough room to alleviate overcrowding in Britain if the will was there to do so,
I repeat - the ending of immigration would alter the 'supposed' overcrowding in Britain
Your either deliberate or totally ignorant misrepresentation of the Irish sutuation only serves to underline your agenda-driven hatred.
The empty houses in Ireland are the direct result of predatory banks overlending in the good times, largely for second homes; few efforts were made to accommodate permanent residents in rural areas.

"If only there was a very uncrowded, almost empty land nearby,"

There are indeed a great many newly built homes here - some statistical facts to put that in context.
"Present population of Ireland 4.576 million
Focus Ireland estimates that there are up to 5,000 people who are homeless in Ireland at any one time. You can view some facts and figures on the number of homeless here. A small minority of people who are homeless sleep rough but most stay in emergency accommodation such as a hostel or a night shelter, a B&B, with family and friends or in a squat.
All of these are very stressful and short-term arrangements. In some of them only essential living necessities are available; in others not even basic needs are being met. None of them is a place to call home.
There are also thousands more families and single people who are at risk of becoming homeless. These people are often at risk of losing their current accommodation due to various reasons including struggling to pay their rent or falling in to serious mortgage arrears.
Focus Ireland works to support people in these situations (And people in groups that are deemed to be particularly vulnerable to homelessness) to prevent them from becoming homeless in the first place.
People who are homeless can find it very difficult to find a place to live. There is a large waiting list for local authority housing* (* Over 98,000 households in 2011) and there is very little housing association accommodation available.
Focus Ireland has called for the government to set a new deadline of 2013 to end long-term homelessness. The previous target of 2010 was not met, mainly because of the failure by successive government to provide the housing vital to move people out of homelessness.
Focus Ireland believes that it is possible to both and homelessness."

Homelessness, here or elsewhere has nothing to do with the availability of land for new building, rather, it has everything to do with the political and social will to tackle the problem - but there again, it's a handy, time-tested stone to throw at 'Johnny Foreigner'.
So far you have used paedophelia, terrorism - even the murder of a soldier as a platform for your racist hatred, sometimes going to unbelievable lengths to turn the crimes of a few into the 'cultural tendencies' of all; now you have turned to 'overcrowding' to extend that platform - the energy that you are prepared to put into your campaign is more than a little gob-smackingly admirable.
All these issues are genuine concerns, but none of them have the silightes to do with immigration or multi-culturalism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 08:37 AM

"I talk to a Muslim who tells me...."

Answer your door to a Jehova's Witness and he shall tell you everything the local vicar stands for.. Do you know, them old women who sneak into church every Sunday? They incite riot you know? Their battle songs start with lines such as Fight the Good Fight! and Onward Christian Soldiers! They don't want a fair society, they want religious law imposed on us all! Save us ! Save us!

zzzzzzzzz

Most Muslims I know stand for raising their family, getting on, supporting their local football, cricket or rugby team and trying to ensure they are not a drain on the system. If I could make a generalisation, it would be the work ethic, based on my experience.

I used to inspect prisons, and speaking to the Imams on the chaplaincy teams, it would appear there are quite a few armed robbers, rapists and people with sever mental health problems including personality disorder too.

You know what that all adds up to?

UK citizens all.

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 08:22 AM

Obviously some parts of any country are more overcrowded than others, but England is the most crowded country in Europe, and third in the whole world.

The context Jim, is about INCREASING the level of immigration while there is already a massive shortage of housing and a crisis of homelessness.
I am just asking where all the additional people will live.

If only there was a very uncrowded, almost empty land nearby, with thousands and thousands of brand new homes all standing empty.

Any thoughts Jim?

Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 06:15 AM

"If land and homes were sufficiently available, there would be no upward pressure on prices, and profiteering could not happen."
The percentage figures for overpopulation grossly distort the overall picture - Overcrowding is centered in larger ares, London and Glasgow being the main ones, there is plenty of undeveloped land available elsewhere.
And still you refuse to address derelict and empty homes issue which, if tackled, could ease both the supposed shortage of homes and many of Britain's economic difficulties.
Tackling this would affect the price of fresh building land which is available, but it's far easier to use the race card rather than tackling the real problem, which affects far more people than immigrants.
Should immigration be stopped tomorrow, the poorer people of Britain would still be faced with the problems brought about by political disinterest and corporate greed, which the present incumbents in Westminster have no intention in tackling.
The crises in both Britain and Ireland were brought about by predatory speculation and calculated political incompetence and neglect. They predates any increase in immigration figures, even significant immigration to Britain itself; I know this because I was brought up on (and have just visited) one of Britain's largest 'problem estates' - when was the last time you visited (let alone lived on) one of these?
Jim Carroll