BS: Stand Your Ground

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 09:25 AM

You aren't even funny, GfinS... You are just another KKKer as far as I can see...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 12:53 AM

Robot: "There is no doubt in my mind that Zimmerman not only got away with murder but that there are folks out there...."

Yeah, and ...there's a herd of turtles on their way to your house...they have torches and muttering about 'Goin' to be an old time Southern lynchin'"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 12:34 AM

Well, I mean, you know, your Gun Laws are altogether...






Oh, let it go, Michael. What's the use!

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 05:18 PM

I know. "We told him multiple times..."

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 05:08 PM

Unfortunately, none of them working for law enforcement in Sanford, Florida.

Expect a lot more stories like

"He attacked me and ran onto the end of my nightstick".
"He walked into the door as we frog marched him out of the building".
"He tripped over my foot and broke his jaw on a mail box".

Or more simply "I thought he was going to beat me to death with that white stick,...so I shot him. It was God's will!"

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 09:37 AM

Well, you have to look at it this way- despite the verdict, it is a consciousness raising story that won't be forgotten anytime too soon. I think a lot of people came away from this with a bigger commitment to civil rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 07:35 PM

Opps... I was just reading Don's stuff and then it just went away and I had posted nothing...

What SJL said, Don...

There is no doubt in my mind that Zimmerman not only got away with murder but that there are folks out there, some of them here, who are happy about the entire story...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 07:32 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 06:32 PM

All very good posts Don. I agree totally.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 06:40 AM

""Why do people go on as though this kid had no rights of his own? No right to be in the neighborhood where he was staying. No right to walk home from the store. No right to get defensive when stalked.""

Because, SJL, he was a black kid walking through a gated community guarded by a violent vigilante!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 06:34 AM

""1) What crime, specifically, do you believe Zimmerman committed? (Not a rhetorical question.)""

The jury are a red herring in this argument. They could have reached no other conclusion based on the evidence they were allowed to hear.

The defence was allowed to poison the trial with that trumped up witholding nonsense.

They were allowed to use Martin's past behaviour to paint him as an aggressive pot smoking thug!

The prosecution were not allowed (or didn't bother) to bring up Zimmerman's violent nature.

If Martin were alive to take the stand, he would have had a good case under "stand your ground".

It is significant that the defence wouldn't put Zimmerman on the stand, as a proper cross examination would have demolished him.

He is guilty at the very least, of manslaughter, but he will never reap the just reward for that, and there will never be justice for Trayvon Martin.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 06:20 AM

""Who was more to blame, moralists? A man stepping from his car and walking a few yards or one who comes back, breaks that man's nose and beats him to the ground""

Two things wrong with that scenario Lighter!

1. Z claimed he was ambushed by Martin on returning to his car, but the following morning the bush Martin was supposed to have jumped out from had miraculously disappeared.

2. Martin's mobile didn't support the ambush story, with Zimmerman accosting him with the words "What are you doing here". Not exactly what you would say as a man jumps out of a bush and attacks you.

Zimmerman initiated the confrontation.....FACT!

Zimmerman lied.....FACT!

Yet you believe everything he said.......Go figure!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 06:12 AM

""Not to mention that Zimmerman claims that the "innocent child" Martin had found and was fumbling for the gun. Or is that plain impossible because Zimmerman said it?""

"Zimmerman said this", "Zimmerman said that", "Zimmerman claimed", "Zimmerman stated".

And it's all accepted as gospel, because the only person who could call him a liar is conveniently dead!

Does nobody see the problem inherent in that, or the mindset engendered by it.

Don't bother punching anybody who gets in your way! Shoot the bastard and claim he frightened you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 05:53 AM

""a cop wanna-be""

Seems a fair description of one who applies to join the police force, is turned down because of his violent past (attacking a woman and a police officer in separate incidents), and then joins neighbourhood watch, carrying a concealed firearm in contravention of neighbourhood watch policy, then, instead of watching from home and reporting, decides to patrol the streets looking for trouble.

What would YOU call him Lighter?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 05:35 AM

""M kept beating the smaller Z instead.""

In the interests of accuracy, Trayvon Martin weighed 156 lb, while the ""smaller Z"" came in at a tiny 204 lb (three and one half stone heavier).

Just one of many holes in the case.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 05:29 AM

""(And the laws only apply if the force is potentially deadly. If you punch my nose, and I'm in no deadly danger, I'll still go to jail if I shoot you.)""

Zimmerman didn't!

Maybe that's the difference between Florida and the other states. We'll just have to wait and see when somebody gets punched.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: GUEST,Who?
Date: 03 Aug 13 - 05:12 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvlTJrNJ5lA&sns=em

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 05:46 PM

Actually, this thread is not supposed to be about the Zimmerman case. We should go back to the thread with the million posts. Personally, I think there should be a limit of about 300 posts. If you look at a thread and it's 1000+, not many would want to read all of that in order to catch up. Then if people were not done talking about a given topic, they could just start a new thread with a similar name, a variation of some kind- and naturally they would be linked together. A hidden advantage to a thread limit is that the end of it would be kinda like an ebay auction. Almost fun. Who gets the last word? A new and different concept in this crowd.

Stand Your Ground is a bad law because it promotes dishonorable terms of engagement such as were roundly rejected in the Old West for good reason. Because it allows cowards who go looking for trouble with a gun, and can't even withstand a bump on the nose, to shoot and kill an unarmed man. If you are pursuing an unarmed individual with a gun and you end up shooting him, you're automatically in the wrong, whether civilian or law enforcement.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 07:52 AM

Lighter, her inconsistencies are nowhere near as egregious as Zimmerman's.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 08:26 AM

Of course I intended to write "the media has NOT emphasized."

Miss Jeantel also claimed on the stand that she clearly recognized Mr. Martin's voice on the phone saying "Get off! Get off!" just before or after his phone was apparently dropped to the ground. (Miss Jeantel also testified that she could "hear wet grass.")

When the defense played the tape of the deposition she made months closer to the incident, she was clearly saying then "That *could be* Trayvon."

Miss Jeantel then denied that she'd uttered those words, saying "You didn't get that from me!"

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 11:06 PM

????

Greg, you sarcastic son of a bitch! How the hell are you? Have a drink.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 11:00 PM

You know, I think I meant the vous you and not the you you, but I agree, it was a very thoughtless remark. So I am sorry. Man! You can bitch up a blue streak. Thank you for responding to my dumb ass thread about Snowden.

Lighter, don't be mesmerized by the CSI effect. If Albert Einstein himself were here, he would tell you, there are things we can never know. He would be the first one to explain that there is science, and on the other hand, free will. And he would tell you that George Zimmerman should be locked up because he is mashugge.

Bobert, rock on.

You know, I listened to this interview a week ago with one of the foremost experts on American law, Paul Finkelman. He says the federal case could be very strong and won, with multiple charges against Mr. Zimmerman. He spoke if it very optimistically and hopefully. Maybe. We'll see. George Zimmerman is a sociopath. With an acquittal, he's riding high. He could fuck up on his own. We'll see about that too.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 09:24 PM



?????

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 07:12 PM

Watched it. 1:15h. It's not the trial. It's part of the discovery. Anyone can watch it and make up their own minds. I encourage everyone to do so. I am gonna watch the second link as time permits.

I'll only say this before I say gnightgnu. Don't make up my mind in your mind. That simply makes your mind the mind of a bully no matter your opinion. Take note... I have not offered an opinion except to call those who would judge before reading the full trial transcript nothing more than a lynch mob. That is the only solid argument put forth yet. I do not know who is guilty and who is innocent yet, other than hearing the verdict of the jury, because I haven't read the full trial transcript. And neither does anyone else who wasn't at the trial or who has not read the full transcript.

If Z SHOULD be hung, I'll find a suitable tree and I'll supply the rope... few of you would be up to the task given the fact that few of you are up to the task of seeing justice properly done in a court of law. Shame on you!

Please PM me if any of you find the TRIAL transcript. Thanks in advance.

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 06:21 PM

THANKS! I have been riveted to the first vid. Just had to take a pee break at one hour in and happened to read your comment "... that is if you are inclined to view the two of them as being human beings worthy of consideration:..." to which I repond, respectfully... WTF is YOUR problem? Don't cast aspersions on my character because I ask questions. I do not make judgements about you or anyone else. I find that remark disgusting and vile.

Now, I am gonna go pee, watch the rest of the first vid and then watch the second link. I will watch and read every link. And I will watch the full trial and I will read the full trial transcript. At that point, I will make up my own mind about all of this.

However, I must take offense to you making up your mind about me by posting such an accusation regarding my character. If that is the way you conduct yourself when asked for help... go fuck yourself. Don't take that the wrong way. I appreciate your help in understanding what happened and I thank you for it. But, character assassination for no reason is assassination of YOUR character and not mine. Feel free to apoligize if you have any character.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 05:41 PM

Since you seem to know exactly what happened, Lighter, why weren't you asked to testify???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 05:00 PM

> I believe this girl's testimony.

She testified that M was headed home. But the phone records, distance to M's house, and the location of the fight add up to show she was wrong.

I watched the trial. The media has emphasized these significant facts, and others, which were known to the jurors. The chatterers are focused on Jeantel, not on how what she said fit in with other evidence.

She couldn't see in what direction M was headed, but if he was walking home fast he should have been there in about 45 seconds or less.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 04:20 PM

Well gnu, this is the best I could do. I don't think there is a full transcript available online.

http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-8-files-trayvon-martin-

But I believe this girl's testimony, that Zimmerman kept up pursuit, unafraid of a confrontation because he had that gun, and accosted Trayvon Martin. I don't believe he ambushed George Zimmerman as he was attempting to retreat to his truck.

Don't forget to read the comments. They are so hate filled, it literally turned my stomache. What did this poor girl do to deserve all that hate (from both sides) except that she was on the phone with her friend at the time the incident occurred? She wasn't trying to be part of any of this.

Here's more on Rachel Jeantel and her relationship with Trayvon Martin, that is if you are inclined to view the two of them as being human beings worthy of consideration:

http://m.globalgrind.com/news/trayvon-martin-few-people-who-didnt-tease-rachel-j

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 12:25 PM

"...then pursued him on foot and I believe ultimately accosted him. Then when the "suspect" asserted his right to defend himself, he killed him. Once he got close enough to the boy to provoke a confrontation, the kid had a right."

I just searched again and I cannot fine the trial transcript. Can one of you, such as Guest,SJL, please provide a link to the trial transcript on accounta I really wanna read it. Thanks in advance.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 09:52 PM

Deadly force is only justified if you are in immediate peril.
Guest, I'm sorry you didn't understand my post. Maybe it wasn't a good analogy.

If someone breaks into my house and I catch him removing my tv set, I would NOT take his life. That's what an eye for an eye means. Check with any Rabbi.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 08:00 PM

A guy in Florida heard something out front of his house and looked and saw someone "messin' with my truck"... So the guy grabbed a machete and went out, confronted the guy, the guy took off running and the guy chased him down and chopped him to death with the machete...

Florida courts said, "Okay, good work"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 04:28 PM

Savaged worse by a guinea pig? Sounds about right. Is it me or does it seem like the only force that is considered justifiable in Stand Your Ground states involves a gun? It's not okay to punch someone in self-defense, only shoot them?

First he stalked him from his vehicle, then pursued him on foot and I believe ultimately accosted him. Then when the "suspect" asserted his right to defend himself, he killed him. Once he got close enough to the boy to provoke a confrontation, the kid had a right. A perfect stranger like that? Why do people go on as though this kid had no rights of his own? No right to be in the neighborhood where he was staying. No right to walk home from the store. No right to get defensive when stalked. C'mon, where's the sense of fairness?

In the first 911 call, couldn't you just hear the disappointment in Zimmerman's voice when told not to follow? After that, you could hear his impatience with the dispatcher who was asking for more info. He wanted to get off the phone and get back to it. Remember he wanted the police to call him when they arrived because he wasn't sure where he would be? In the end, his tale of being attacked is just not credible.

George Zimmerman once pursued a pickup truck for nearly 5 minutes (out of his way) when he observed that there were kids in the car with no car seats. Can you imagine? What happened to getting a plate number? I seriously think he thought of the police as HIS backup.

Stand Your Ground is a bad law but maybe it's not really my business to worry about because I live in New York? Maybe it's up to people who live in the states that have it to decide? Or maybe it should be made into a federal case? I really think it could be interpreted as unconstitutional myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 12:15 PM

was physically unable to retreat.

He shouldn't have stalked Martin & should have retreated like the police told him to do in the first instance then, eh?

Zimmerman put himself in harms way - not that the harm amounted to much. I've been savaged worse by a pet Guinea Pig.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 12:05 PM

The SYG defense requires proportionality of force.

It did not apply to Z because, pinned to the ground for with his head being thumped on the pavement for nearly a minute, he "reasonably believed" he was in danger of death or great bodily harm and was physically unable to retreat.

That would be true *whether or not* M found the gun (the DNA samples were inconclusive) and/or told Z, "You're gonna die tonight, m--f--" (for which we have only Z's word).

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 10:41 AM

QUOTE
If you carry a gun and some thug demands your wallet at knife point you have the right under Stand your ground to shoot him. But, would you? An eye for an eye means just that, no more, and a life for a wallet breaks that rule.
/QUOTE

So you mean that "stand your ground" is about revenge (eye for an eye) not about self defence (where lethal force would be a proportionate defence against a lethal weapon)?

To misquote Obelix "these Americans are crazy"

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 10:18 AM

Oh, and how about all these states pushing for people to be able to not only stand their ground but carry guns into bars???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 09:42 AM

Stand your ground is one of the silliest laws ever.

This morning I was in the center lane and the sign said "Right lane ends". Some jerk in the right lane goes tearing past. I could have forced him into the ditch but I chose not to. If you deliberately contribute to an accident, it is not an accident, and you are equally guilty.
If you carry a gun and some thug demands your wallet at knife point you have the right under Stand your ground to shoot him. But, would you? An eye for an eye means just that, no more, and a life for a wallet breaks that rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 09:21 AM

I'd love to see them bring the case... I doubt if the language in federal law would allow for a conviction but I'd like to see Zimmerman have to squirm some more for what he has done...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: GUEST,Red Queen
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 01:40 AM

Bobert, I was listening to NPR earlier tonight and a prominent Albany law professor, Paul Finkelman, was interviewed about the case. He said that if the feds brought a case, they would win. I wish they would.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 07:30 PM

What, Lighter???

You say you listened to the testimony???

So what did Martin supposedly do??? Rain MMA blows down on Zimmerman of pound his head into the concrete???

You can't pick both 'cause martial arts don't work that way... I mean, you can do one but you can't do both...

So please, Lighter, just answer the question since you seem to think you know exactly what happened...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 06:42 PM

There is no point in answering to your prejudices.

Or you realize that you're wrong in saying that history doesn't exist and/or doesn't matter, and is not still very much with us??

What's next? You going to tell us that "Some of your best friends are Negroes"? I think that one was a favorite of George Wallace and "Bull" Comnnor.

Anyway, take it up with Bobert, why dontcha. Shame Azizi isn't still here, too; she'd be impressed with your point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 06:11 PM

Dang, Bobert, I listened to the testimony as it was given - just like the jurors.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 04:47 PM

Every time someone uses the word "KKK", somewhere a little puppy dies.

Bobert,

I'd love to see Zimmerman do time for anything and have a big black guy as a cell mate... That would be justice...

Come now. For "anything"? Be serious a second.
1) What crime, specifically, do you believe Zimmerman committed? (Not a rhetorical question.)
2) In what way would the above scenario be justice served for that crime?

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 02:44 PM

Danged... Why didn't Lighter take the stand since he seems to be the only person on the planet who knew that Martin pounded Zimmerman's head into the concrete???

But never mind that...

Here's the real deal... Had Martin had been on top and in a position to pound his head into the concrete - which is very doubtful seein' as it was Zimmerman who supposedly knew mixed martial arts - then guess what, people... There would have been a lot more damage to Zimmerman than what we saw in the photos...

Plus, one of the two witnesses who says he kinda saw the fight said that Martin was raining down punches on Zimmerman... Lighter - who was not there and is clueless as to what really happened - and Zimmerman say that the head was getting pounded into the concrete...

Hmmmmmm???

Which was it??? Head pounding from the front or back???

Geeeeee???

Someone is dead wrong here on the defense side... Please explain, Lighter, how I can rain down MMA punches while pounding your head into the concrete...

This is a bullshit case tried in the South... I'm sure Lighter and his KKK buddies are tickled to have their boy beat the wrap...

Me??? I'd love to see Zimmerman do time for anything and have a big black guy as a cell mate... That would be justice...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 02:38 PM

None of your business, GF, but I have relatives in central Georgia and have resided in both GA and TX and worked for a time in the latter.
There is no point in answering to your prejudices.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 02:05 PM

John in Kansas. The juror who spoke out said that Stand Your Ground informed their decision. So basically, it was Stand Your Ground.

And btw, that juror was so colossally ignorant. Good Christ! If she had a brain in her head she'd be lonesome, as my dad used to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 01:12 PM

Q, get real - there was no statement or suggestion that it was made "SOLELY" on that basis.

But the idea that it had nothing to do with the verdict is delusional.

Ever live in the deep South & for how long?

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 01:11 PM

As for the jury, the three prosecutors were quite satisfied with the jurors' ability to judge fairly when they accepted each of them after pointed questioning.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 12:50 PM

"Three hundred years of history..."

This suggestion that the six women of the jury made their determination solely on prejudice is deplorable.

The evidence of the trial could lead only to acquittal.

Your imaginary scenario bears no relation to the evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Stand Your Ground
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 10:11 AM

You can assume, presume, pretend, and guess at any possibilities you want, Lighter - even if it strains credibility, rationality and common sense and three hundred years of history and past practice.

It this a great country or what?