BS: Proof Tories are Manipulative Liars

Subject: BS: Proof Tories are Maniplativre Liars
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 03:22 PM

Today I got a leaflet through my door from the local Torys. Full of misrepresentation of facts. Onve that got me very angry - enough to leave a message on their andget.

swerphone what I thought of them.

1. Tories have cut the budget for council tax benefit by 10%
2. Tories accuse my council of hitting poorer famalies by reducing council tax benefit because they had 10% less in the council tax benefit bugdget.

My questions

If, for example the council tax benefit budget was £1,000,000 and it has been reduced to £900,000 what is the mathematical proof that a council can spend £1,000,000 with £900,000 cash?

If the tories on one hand believe the poorest shoule pay their way, what gives them the right to criticise my council for obeying their instructions?... the options for implementing the cuts have come from ...you guesswed it... the Tories.

Should voters have to pass an exam to prove that they have individually thought through their decisons and thet they have not been influenced by tory lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof Tories are Maniplativre Liars
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 03:37 PM

It's worse than that, this sudden vicious attempt to discredit the NHS is a precursor to the Tory's ultimate long standing plan to privatise the NHS.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Proof Tories are Maniplativre Liars
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 04:17 AM

That is terrible - not really sure what can be done. The trouble was that main manipulative organ - the Murdoch empire. Well Blair spent all his time cosying up to - rather than taking it apart.

Same goes for the security services that got Thatcher eleected. After that Spycatcher scandal - the first thing a Labour government should have f=done is clean the Augean stables.

But they didn't, And they probably won't next time.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof Tories are Maniplativre Liars
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 05:52 AM

If Brown hadn't spent and borrowed so much ........well you know the rest. Of course we all know that Labour can do no wrong........ever!

Subject: RE: BS: Proof Tories are Maniplativre Liars
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 06:31 AM

Nobody gives a fuck.
Anybody who cares about society knows all politicians would sell their granny's into slavery.
Most people digest what they are served with by the media, facebook, twitter,.....simplistic shite!

All combine to rip off the NHS. Off we pop every week for our bags of pills...we smoke drink, become obese and demand to be cured or made comfortable.....huge profits for drug companies, GP's nurses who dont give a fuck... patients who want it all and give fuck all!!

We deserve what we are about to receive, as we should have seen it coming years ago in the "good" times.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof Tories are Maniplativre Liars
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 10:39 AM

Virtually all politicians end up being manipulative liars. It's a requirement of that job.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof Tories are Maniplativre Liars
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 01:50 PM

Oh Bonzo this in a week when we decide we can't afford immunisation for children against meningitis, and the papers are full of shit about Kate's baby.

If we put the royal family on a salary. and the bankers on a fair salary - we could afford these things well enough
. have some brains - its not the party of the poor people (how ever unsatisfactorily it does that job) that causes our problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof Tories are Maniplativre Liars
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 03:05 PM

You vote. You get the government.

Was anybody expecting anything else?

Lower your expectations and feel happy when they manage something good or something good happens despite them. I have in the past been a policy advisor, not a political advisor but nuts and bolts policy. If you knew the contempt that senior civil servants and ministers hold each other in, you might have something to worry about.

Al. I respect where you are coming from but NICE guidelines are based on cost effectiveness not cost. The decision would be the same regardless of country coffers. In the same month, they committed The NHS to new chemotherapy drugs which make the meningococcal vaccine seem cheap. NICE do take cost into account but not in terms of what the NHS can actually afford, but to set priorities. Political decisions on drugs haven't been tried since Patricia Hewitt's appalling weighing in over Herceptin for early onset breast issues.

The last time I was on the telly defending refusal to treat, the cost of what our medical people refused was peanuts compared to the cost of ongoing care. The operation the patient asked for would not help and nobody was willing to carry it out. The successful one off in The USA they read about in the news didn't reveal all the facts. Needless to say we asked the relevant Royal College to investigate before refusing on risk not finance.   Look North however concentrated on showing me turn up in my Jaguar. Considering that was mine and as a chairman I wasn't employed by The NHS and that was my car from my day job in industry. ... You see truth being shafted from all sides.

All rather sad but media don't always let truth get in the way of a good story.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof Tories are Maniplativre Liars
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 03:22 PM

You vote. You get the government.

Nobody voted for the Conservative/Lib Dem coalition we got.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof Tories are Maniplativre Liars
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 03:49 PM

ALL politicians are manipulative liars. Sorry but that is just the way it is. Get rid of all of them.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Proof Tories are Maniplativre Liars
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 03:57 PM

Dave. The gnomes would start off ok. They would mean well but before long would be captured by the system themselves.

Guest. You vote from a list of MPs. One of the ones on the list you voted for became theMMP based on getting the most votes. They then get together under whip to propose a government to the monarch.

I fully agree that the government have no moral mandate to have carried out ideological policies such as NHS reform or tuition fees, not under anyone's manifesto but under the rules of elections, coalitions are valid. Not the first, not the last.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof Tories are Maniplativre Liars
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 10:40 PM

'Proof Tories are Maniplativre Liars'

They're not really that manipulative.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof Tories are Maniplativre Liars
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 03:37 AM

The manipulation that I was talking about, and angered me, was Central Government make a policy (which they have a democratic right to do - and I maintain the moral right of populr revolt when those elected overstep the mark), enforce democratically elected local authorities to carry out their policies, and then the majority party in the government dropping of leaflets through my leterbox criticising my looal authority for carrying out the policeies that central government have forced them to carry out.

All in the year leading up to the next local auithrity elections.

Maybe a way forward would be to get the voting paper voter should complete an anonymous survey, say 10 statements and ticking a choice of boxes (information or misinformation - but all 10 being misinformation found in the press) then ticking one of three boxes at the end:

(1) I vote because I believe in the ideology of the party I vote for.
(2) I vote because I believe media statements about the party's track records.
(3) I vote because I have taken the trouble to find out the truth
(3)

Subject: RE: BS: Proof Tories are Maniplativre Liars
From: GUEST,Musket par for the course
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 03:57 AM

The tension between local and national legislature has always been an issue.

I too find it frustrating but not sure it is a particular issue with one party at this particular time. I recall the previous government a few years ago saying that social workers with management responsibilities need to be counted in the management overhead. They then targeted Tory council areas pointing out the increase in managers combined with the decrease of social workers on the ground. Nobody altered what they did for a living. ..

At the same time, as the treasury directive also affected The NHS, they did the same counting game with the clinical management, where asking doctors and nurses to be involved in management was the cry from all parties. When trusts had to count them asmmanagers. ... The Tory cry was "more managers than beds now! " Again, no change but a different party getting capital from manipulating figures.

If politicians hold the electorate in such contempt as thinking we fall for it every time, I would point out that statistically speaking, it appears we do. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Proof Tories are Maniplativre Liars
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 05:53 AM

The gnomes would start off ok. gnomeS, Musket? Plural? I would never be party to that (pun intended). I would be a benevolent dictator and heaven help anyone who said otherwise :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Proof Tories are Maniplativre Liars
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 05:26 PM

True enough, Tories are manipulative liars. But the even more depressing truth is that all three mainstream parties (and UKIP) are all Tory parties, as they have been for many years, and there is no reason to foresee that changing.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof Tories are Manipulative Liars
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 06:37 PM

I thought they all moved to New Brunswick years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof Tories are Manipulative Liars
From: GUEST,roderick warner
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 06:59 PM

Anyone written 'Sing a song of Stafford' yet? Must be some new relevant 'folk' songs out there...