BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'

Subject: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 05:15 PM

Jerry is rehearsing for a play that takes place in an Irish pub near Carrick (Co. Donegal)and the term "the Germans" comes up several times. For example, "You get all the Germans trekking up here in the summer, up from the campsite" and "All the Germans'll be coming in here and they love it". Obviously these are references to tourists but it seems like the term "Germans" has some other connotation.

And then at the end of the play we hear, "Are they from Germany? ...We call them Germans... Where are they from? Is it Denmark, or Norway? It's somewhere like that... Ah, I don't know where the fuck they're from."

Anyone familiar with this term?

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 07:42 PM

Sounds like the same stereotype of German tourists you get in England - pushy and prosporous and organised, first to the beach. Anybody like that is likely to be assumed to be Germans. Unless they are obviously Yanks.

Like most sterotypes, very unfair as a generalisation, but accurate enough for a certain type. Who aren't particularly likely to be German.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 08:42 PM

Once ask a B&B host in Dingle how it felt to live in the Deutschtacht. He laughed and said that it was a pretty accurate description of the place "these days now."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: gnu
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 10:35 PM

"Term." Odd but, yet, somehow understanable, given the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:26 AM

Kind of like in Juneau where we tend to call all tourist-shop meccas in town "T-shirt shops" no matter what they sell in actuality.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 04:40 AM

Bev and Jerry, can you tell us when the play was written?

Tourists have always and everywhere been a target of taunting, all the more so if their money is badly needed. Typical national profiles and prejudices vary, though, and depend on both nations involved. England and Ireland are very different in this respect, and even likely to attract different types of tourists.

The simplest explanation is of course that at that time, Germans were by far the largest group of tourists in Europe, before Americans and Japanese took over. Moreover, Americans and other English-speakers traveling to Ireland were often searching for their "roots", which made for quite a different emotional situation. (In other countries including England, Americans mentioning their local ancestors won't be bought a beer, unless they display a keen effort to learn about the country. Irish, it seems, have a particularly soft spot for their lost relatives - see the "Irish famine" thread.)

We need statements from residents of Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 05:05 AM

Yes, no slang involved, just Germans. Tourists. Sounds very 1980-ish.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 06:40 AM

Wot McGrath and Peter just said -
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Leadbelly
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 09:02 AM

Was für eine saublöde Diskussion. Verdient keine Übersetzung.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 09:41 AM

Ganz genau. Wollte ich gerade sagen.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 09:52 AM

Nur dass es is vielleicht moeglich dass einige Leute hier sind selber gegen so einen Ausdruck.   Der Ausdruck kommt auf jeden Fall scheinbar aus den 80's.

Wir sollen deswegen vielleicht Verstehung fuer diese Diskussion haben.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 09:55 AM

Wir sollen deswegen vielleicht doch Verstehung fuer so eine Diskussion haben.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 10:03 AM

Sie hat mit der Teilnehmung eines Buehnenstuecks zu tun.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:12 PM

By the quotations of the OP, the Danes and Norwegians may primarily feel offended. It was McGrath who mentioned clichés about German tourists, common in England and some other countries, but probably not that much in Ireland, where they may indulge in wanderlust as camping backpackers.

(Ron, nicht schlecht, deine Sprachkenntnisse! Bleibauch, nur keine Aufregung am falschen Ort.)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:15 PM

From the 1960s on the west of Ireland was aflock with Germans. It started, I think, from an article in a German news magazine about the safest places to live after a nuclear war, and then there was Heinrich Boll's Irisches Tagebuch (Irish Journal), which pictured our country as a land of dreamy, sweetly innocent peasants driving donkey-carts. German idealists took this hook line and sinker, and proceeded to visit Ireland annually, with many moving in.
The tourists were perhaps a little less popular than those from other countries, because of a perception that they took more than they gave - even the cycle tourists often thriftily brought their own food with them, and stayed in hostels or campsites rather than giving business to local B&Bs and shops.
So any sharp references to "the Germans" in the play are probably the Donegal people feeling a certain reserve about being treated like a human zoo in a beautiful landscape by people who may not wish to form any real exchange.
(All this has largely changed with the tourists coming back year and year and growing older and richer - in their fifties and sixties they now tend to be sensible and stay in B&Bs and buy from local shops. And those who have moved in largely went native; I remember visiting a friend in west Cork some years ago who had been waiting three months for a local German carpenter to come and mend the window.)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:21 PM

Good piece by the Irish novelist Hugo Hamilton here, by the way>

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 03:23 PM

The play is "The Weir" by Conor McPherson and was copyrighted in 1997.

And, we made an error in saying that the location was in Carrick in County Donegal. It is in fact in Carrick-on-Shannon in County Leitrim. Carrick is an anglicized version on the Irish word for weir, is it not?

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 05:52 PM

If the actors don't know what it means, how is the audience supposed to know? Apparently it's slang that has lost its meaning. The director should rewrite the lines without it so the play will go smoothly.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 06:06 PM

Why see it as any kind of slang?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 06:23 PM

I'm Irish. I never heard "German" used as a slang term.

A "German" is somebody from Germany.

Maybe it has some other meaning further north in the country, but I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 09:37 PM

Grischka--

Ebenfalls.

Und danke vielmals.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: gnomad
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 03:38 AM

thread.cfm?threadid=119645 has a few 1960s thoughts from Luke Kelly which might be germane. Foreign visitors/immigrants seem to have been occupying the thoughts of at least some Irish people at that time.

Luke did a fine recording on the LP "Revolution", the bitterness is almost palpable.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 07:10 AM

And, we made an error in saying that the location was in Carrick in County Donegal. It is in fact in Carrick-on-Shannon in County Leitrim. Carrick is an anglicized version on the Irish word for weir, is it not?

The Irish name of the town is Corra Droma Ruisc - and the first word does indeed mean "weir". Anglicisation as "Carrick" is a bit misleading because that word is usually derived from "carraig" - which means rock.

BTW, the switch of county from Donegal to Leitrim is very significant! Some of the earliest consistent German tourists to Ireland (as distinct from the first wave of escapees to the edge of Europe, mentioned elsewhere) were people hiring cruisers on the Shannon river. They had a distinct impact on the culture of the riverbank. When I went to live in Athlone (further downstream from Carrick) at the beginning of the '70's, the only decent delicatessen in the town was within two minutes walk of the marina. I remember being told that, in Ireland, you could only buy sauerkraut within about a mile of the river!

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 07:25 AM

And yes - "Germans" was really a generic term for such tourists. They were (and to to some extent still are) mainly German, Swiss, Austrians - with a sprinkle of others. I remember sitting in a sailing dinghy in one of the big locks, surrounded by hired cruisers - and not a word of English to be heard. They were often keen fishermen and would bring home freezer boxes full of pike - a favourite delicacy!

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 09:24 AM

The OP's question seems to be answered comprehensively.

It is not quite PC to name an international group of persons by the nation of the majority. (From time to time, the old question arises whether Canadians are Americans; my atlas clearly suggests so ...) However, in colloquial speech, as quoted in the play, it can be tolerated, all the more so if no specific slur is involved.

"The tourists will love it" may sound like "... will be stupid enough to waste their money for/at it" - a worldwide phenomenon, often reflecting envy of the perceived affluence, but essentially harmless.

Selling out the country is a different topic, the blame being more on the sellers than the buyers. Whenever a genuine such problem arises, ideas like Luke Kelly's are not likely to solve it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 11:53 AM

Ireland's economy appears to have been a real rollercoaster.

If this play takes place during the 80's, that may have been a low point.    Irish Independent 24 Oct 2004 (is this the voice of the business community?):    in the 80's Eire was a "land of high tax, high unemployment, high debt, high emigration, one of low growth, little opportunity and less hope". It's no wonder there would have been bitterness.

Then came the period of high foreign investment,   including lots from the US: Dell, Intel and Microsoft all invested heavily.   Partly due to this, employment went up.

Next was the housing bubble (and the banking crisis)--and its bursting, with those consequences, exacerbated by the worldwide recession.   Irish Times   22 Dec 2013:    "By 30 Jan 2009, Ireland's government debt had become the riskiest in the euro zone."

It did not help that it appears that the gap between the highest and lowest income households actually widened during the period of the "Celtic Tiger".

So it's understandable that the bitterness may well be back--though perhaps not directed at Americans, perhaps partly because of the US investment and jobs resulting (and perhaps since US tourists may spend more heavily than others). Also quite a few US tourists--supposedly 40% of the US population traces ancestry to Ireland--feel kinship, justfied or not, with Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 12:03 PM

"justified or not"


And of course historical struggles against Britain by the Irish and the Americans play a role in the perceived kinship.

But this is all probably rather obvious.

Sometimes it's hard to answer questions without being seen as lecturing.   Wonder how Dale Carnegie got around that.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 06:54 PM

I'd doubt if solidarity with the American Revolution is too significant in this context. Or indeed that outside of direct family connections there's too much difference in the way people in Ireland view rich Tourists from America and elsewhere, as against how they actually behave.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 07:32 PM

Thanks for all the info and opinions. We once were in a tourist information place somewhere in Ireland and the lady there called the owner of a B&B for us. We heard her say, "No, they're not Germans, they're Americans." We took this to mean literally that we were not from Germany but now we have a better understanding of what she was talking about.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 06:02 AM

We heard her say, "No, they're not Germans, they're Americans." We took this to mean literally that we were not from Germany but now we have a better understanding of what she was talking about.


Well she was exactly saying that. You were Americans, not Germans. I don't see why you persist in seeing a hidden meaning where there isn't any.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 10:50 AM

Point is, Kevin, that since about 40% of Americans feel kinship with Ireland, they are likely to treat the Irish with respect and possibly affection.   And this is noticed.    Perhaps noted with tolerant amusement, but that's better than feeling exploited, which is evidently how at least some Irish felt about "the Germans". You live neither in the US nor in Ireland. I at least have some concept of the American attitude toward the irish--romanticized or not. And long memories are involved here, as any Englishman should know.    We still have evidence of it here on Mudcat--and of course friction between Britons and Irishmen is not in fact a distant memory.

And who knows, perhaps the investment of US tech firms in Ireland plays a role here--as opposed to what is perceived--rightly or wrongly-- as manipulation of the Irish banking system, in which it seems UK banks were heavily involved. Were US banks involved also? Probably, but due to the different histories of the countries involved, the reaction may be different.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 11:05 AM

"American attitude toward the Irish"

And the American Revolution is only one of a long series of points of friction between the US and UK---and therefore identification with the Irish struggle against the British.

I'm sure I don't have to tell you about the long-running love-hate relationship between the US and UK--continuing even today with British resentment of US "cultural exploitation" and the resulting perceived dumbing down of UK culture, and possibly on the US late entry into the two world wars.   And on the US side with the continuing inferiority complex felt felt by some Americans, based primarily on language.   It's only recently that villains in Hollywood have been other than lopsidedly those with a posh British accent.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 11:09 AM

And of course the subsidizing of the IRA by some Americans did not help smooth relations between the US and UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: mayomick
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 11:27 AM

The anti-irish prejudices of certain backward British people thankfully hasn't stopped Donegal locals being any less friendly to English visitors .

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 01:29 PM

" Tolerant amusement" towards Yank tourists is about right.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 04:34 PM

We'll take "tolerant amusement".      Probably similar to the attitude of US westerners towards Britons on dude ranches.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 05:22 PM

Incidentally I think the American Revolution is about the only significant falling out beween the US and British government of which many people in Europe are aware. Even the war of 1812 wouldn't win many right answers in pub quizzes.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 06:20 PM

I assure you lots of Americans are aware of others. It's amazing how many there have been historically.   Of course it depends on your definition of "significant"--a very fungible term.

But we do have an armistice now.   Don't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 08:01 PM

"Fungible" -- capable of growing mushrooms?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 09:45 PM

That's right. And the mushrooms are also protean.   As opposed to the people eating them, who only think they are.    And when the people try to fly out of windows, for instance, that can be a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 09:49 PM

Maybe Americans know about stuff like that. But if there are many people anywhere else who are aware of it I'd be astonished.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 09:51 PM

Heck, Kevin, a lot of people know about mushrooms.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Stu
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 05:40 AM

"It's amazing how many there have been historically. "

I'm interested. What are these falling outs then?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 11:11 AM

Adjective
(of goods contracted for without an individual specimen being specified) Able to replace or be replaced by another identical item...

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 10:13 PM

US-UK friction:    quite a list. Some incidents direct clashes between the governments;    often private citizens creating uncomfortable situations for the governments.

And some of them are really colorful.

Perhaps my favorite so far is the United Columbia scheme in 1796.

Ira Allen, brother of Ethan, of "Green Mountain Boys" fame, got the French to procure him cannon and 15,000 muskets which he claimed was for the Vermont militia.    The British suspected they were in fact intended for the United Irishmen.    The ship, the "Olive Branch"--perfect name for a conspiracy-- carrying them was intercepted 200 miles south of Ireland.   Allen's real intent:   smuggle the arms into Canada to promote a rebellion in support of a French invasion by sea.   Then Vermont would secede from the US and, with Canada, form a new republic called United Columbia.

Allen's chief partner:   John Graham.    "After studying divinity, Graham shifted to the study of law, which better suited his tastes for women, drink, and money." Civil War of 1812 p 78.

However, when the British caught the "Olive Branch" he felt for some reason compelled to betray Allen by revealing the actual destination for the arms.

At least one American was executed-- by firing squad--for participation in the United Columbia scheme. Both Graham and Allen survived.

The Adams administration, bent on good relations with the UK, disavowed any knowledge or part in this.

But there certainly are more incidents of friction other than the obvious ones, the Revolution and the War of 1812.   I can give you more of a list sometime soon if there is real interest--but you can easily make your own list.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 10:48 PM

"he claimed were..."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 04:31 AM

Can't someone ask the playwright , Conor McPherson?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Stu
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 04:47 AM

Thanks Ron - I might well look into this a bit further. I'm ashamed to say I'm largely ignorant of the earlier history between the two countries (apart from the big events) as in our schools here in nasty England we weren't taught much about many of the UK's past conflicts and campaigns as it didn't fit in with the concept of 'glorious empire' (at least that was how it was in the late '70s).

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 11:49 AM

I somehow doubt if that little episode would be too familiar to very many people it Ireland. Or indeed anywhere, including Vermnt.

The remarkable thing is that there haave been so few serious disagreements over nearly 250 years. Undercurrent of mutual dislike sometimes? True enough, though perhaps that's a bit too strong a word, but accompanied by the reverse.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 12:22 PM

Depends on your definition of serious disagreements.

There have been in fact several times when hotheads in the government or outside--on either side-- have pushed for war between the US and UK.   Not including the Revolution and War of 1812. More times when there has been considerable suspicion of the other side. And I'm somewhat surprised Kevin that you say that outside pub quizzes few in the UK would recognize the War of 1812.

The "special relationhip" is a recent phenonenon.   And even that "marriage" has not been without its squabbles.

More later--no time now.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 12:43 PM

Hotheads calling for war doesn't add up to much. Never came to blows. I believe there some row about a pig in Oregon wasn't there?

Seriously I doubt if too many people outside the US or Canada have even heard of the War of 1812. Even if you did History of the period it gets crowded out by bigger conflicts. 1812? That's Napoleon in Russia isn't it?

Lonnie Donnegan fans have heard of the Battle of New Orleans, but I'd suspect most who haven't studied the lyrics too closely would think it was about something in the American Revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 01:57 PM

Don't underestimate the power of demogogues.   " 54-40 or Fight" was not over a pig. Kevin, you may not understand the appeal of militarism in the US.   After all, the largest group of our presidents trace their ancestry to the Scottish-English border in the 16th century: violence as a way of solving problems. It paid off at the ballot box.   Still does--see GWB.

And people wind up in a political campaign being pressured in directions they may not want to go--and find they cannot back away. I have read Madison did not want to start the War of 1812. But it sure happened. And the start was a surprise--to the American military--when it did.

Pacifism was an also-ran in the US--at least until the 20th century.   And though the US did not want to get involved in what was seen as European quarrels, if we felt personally threatened, as military response was always close to the surface.


But it's much too glorious a day now to spend more time on this.

More later.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 02:00 PM

And I'm sure there's a lot of ignorance of history in the UK. Here too, of course. And it doesn't help in making the right decisions--at the ballot box, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 02:05 PM

One more thing: if you want to be effective, it pays not to have a flippant attitude towards problems. At least in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 03:35 PM

An enormous amount of ignorance about history in the UK. In a sense more awareness of it in Ireland, but only some aspects.

Every now and then the BBC homes in on programmes about some period, but it tends to be rather comic book stuff, with little effort to knit the periods or the themes together.

But as for 1812', when I did my A levels many years ago that period was one of the ones I had to cover, but it was European History and it never got a mention. First time I heard anything about it was when Lonnie Donnegan recorded the song, and I got curious.

I don't know when I heard about the Pig War. According to Wikipedia the only casualty was one pig. That's what I mean by not significant.

A fair amount of irritation,, distrust and bad blood, but that's normal enough with any foreigners in any country. Just, it's not the whole story.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 10:39 PM

I repeat, "54-40 or Fight" was not about a pig.

Also, it was not the only time aside from the Revolution and the War of 1812 that war with the UK was pushed for by US hotheads.   And there is also at least one when war with the US was advocated by UK hotheads.    You have some too, just not as many as we do.

And flippancy is not a good attitude when talking about a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 05:52 PM

It may not have been about a pig, but that's it appears to have picked up that nickname, and a dead pig appears to have played a significant part:

"The crisis came on June 15, 1859, when Lyman Cutlar, an American, shot and killed a company pig rooting in his garden. When British authorities threatened to arrest Cutlar and evict all his countrymen from the island as trespassers, a delegation sought military protection from Brig. Gen. William S. Harney, the anti-British commander of the Department of Oregon. Harney responded by ordering Company D, 9th U.S. Infantry under Capt. George E. Pickett (of later Civil War fame) to San Juan. Pickett's 64-man unit landed on July 27 and encamped near the HBC wharf on Griffin Bay, just north of Belle Vue Sheep Farm..."

That's from this site For all I know it might be folklore rather than history. Anyway it never came to a war, any more than any of the other differences that might have blown up over the years.

Incidentally, I don't think I've ever met anyone who has heard about it. I think I read about it in some believe-it-or-not article in which the unfortunate pig was the main interest. There really is very little awareness of historic disagreements between the USA and Britain, in either Britain or Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 05:52 PM

It may not have been about a pig, but that's it appears to have picked up that nickname, and a dead pig appears to have played a significant part:

"The crisis came on June 15, 1859, when Lyman Cutlar, an American, shot and killed a company pig rooting in his garden. When British authorities threatened to arrest Cutlar and evict all his countrymen from the island as trespassers, a delegation sought military protection from Brig. Gen. William S. Harney, the anti-British commander of the Department of Oregon. Harney responded by ordering Company D, 9th U.S. Infantry under Capt. George E. Pickett (of later Civil War fame) to San Juan. Pickett's 64-man unit landed on July 27 and encamped near the HBC wharf on Griffin Bay, just north of Belle Vue Sheep Farm..."

That's from this site For all I know it might be folklore rather than history. Anyway it never came to a war, any more than any of the other differences that might have blown up over the years.

Incidentally, I don't think I've ever met anyone who has heard about it. I think I read about it in some believe-it-or-not article in which the unfortunate pig was the main interest. There really is very little awareness of historic disagreements between the USA and Britain, in either Britain or Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 06:24 PM

Egad!! We're into family history here, McGrath.

I was going to do a whole riff on the Pig War, then remembered that I had already written a bit on in on the "John Dwyer – Songs & Stories" thread some years back.

Subject: RE: John Dwyer - Songs&Stories
From: Don Firth - PM
Date: 06 Jan 01 - 04:38 PM

Outrageous! Howdy, Mark. I remember, you and I rode up to San Juan Island together (in 1985 I think it was -- thanks for the lift, by the way) for the songfest at English Camp. And well do I remember Maggie in her park ranger's uniform and Smoky Bear hat, who, I think, set the whole thing up. Marvelous afternoon.

I know this is a bit of "thread creep" which I don't want to do, particularly on this thread, but I just have to stick this in: I have a family connection with the Pig War and all that. When the British were trying to establish a presence on the San Juan Islands (they claimed everything down to the Columbia River, while the Americans were yelling "Fifty-four-forty or fight!") they asked the Hudson's Bay Company in to see if they could use the islands somehow. In 1858, my great-grandfather, Robert Firth, who worked for the Hudson's Bay Company, was appointed by Governor Douglas in Fort Victoria to head the Belle-Vue Ranch at the south end of San Juan Island with the idea of running about 6000 head of sheep on the island. By the time the thing finally got settled by Kaiser Wilhelm and the San Juans stayed on the American side, my great-grandfather had settled in, was raising a family, and decided to stay. My grandfather (another Robert Firth) and my father (also Robert Firth) were both born in Friday Harbor (my great-grandfather came originally from the Orkney Isles, as did many Hudson's Bay Company employees, and I understand that, even now, every third male in the Orkneys is named "Robert Firth"). I learned some of this from Maggie, some from another park ranger on a later trip to the San Juans, and some from a couple of books on San Juan history.

John's song is factually right on! That's what happened -- names, events, everything! I'm amazed at the accuracy, but since it was written by John, I'm not at all surprised.

Incidentally, the Captain Pickett, who was in command of American Camp on the island, resigned his commission after a year at American Camp, went home, and joined the Confederate Army. This is the same George Pickett who led the heroic but ill-fated "Pickett's Charge" at the battle of Gettysburg.

By the way, Stewart, you wouldn't happen to have the tune for this, would you?

Don Firth

And here is the song, written by the late John Dwyer:

An 1846 agreement extended the boundary between the U.S. and Canada along the 49th parallel to the west coast and from there to the "middle of the channel" through the islands southeast of Vancouver Island. A war between the U. S. and England almost erupted in 1859, triggered by the killing of a pig and disagreement as just where the "channel" went — whether the San Juan Islands were British or American.
SAN JUAN PIG — John Dwyer, 1978

Let me tell you of a story of a San Juan pig.
It wasn't worth much cause it wasn't very big,
But it rooted in a garden and it nearly caused a fray,
Between the King of England and the U. S. A.

Now the Pig it was Canadian, the settler was a Yank
What the pig did to his garden was more than just a prank,
For it dug up his potatoes and it tore down his fence,
Since it wasn't just the first time Cutler's anger was immense.

When he saw the pig a-rootin', Lyman Cutter, he got sore.
He grabbed up his musket, for the pig he tore.
The pig saw him comin' and headed for the woods,
But he stopped at the edge, and Cutler shot him good.

Then Cutler felt regretful and went down to Hudson's Bay,
And told the clerk in charge of the porker he would pay.
Griffin said, "One hundred dollars, he's a prize breeding boar."
Cutler told him "I'll pay three, and not a penny more."

Then up stepped A. G. Dallas, and said, "See here, my man,
You're already trespassing upon Canadian land.
You know it's British country from Rosario to the west,"
"Not so," said Lyman Cutler, "East of Haro is U. S."

Well, the settlers they backed Cutler with their muskets in their hands.
The British thought it wiser not to make a stand.
The stars and stripes were hoisted to celebrate the day,
And were seen by General Hamey a-sail in' on the bay.

The general came ashore and he listened to their tale.
He was a man of action and to help he did not fail.
To Fort Bellingham he sent 'ere he sailed away again,
And down came Captain Pickett with a company of men.

Then up sailed the British with war ships one, two, three,
Which made a few too many for Pickett's company.
They had to find a way to even up the score,
So he sent to Fort Steilacoom and got five hundred more.

Well they argued in the Senate, and in the House of Lords,
And they didn't make much progress but they used a lot of words.
So they asked the German Emperor the boundary to define,
And tell those treaty makers where to draw the line.

Now the Kaiser gave his answer in 1872,
And said that Haro Strait was where the line went through.
Well they called it a war, but it wasn't very big
And the only one got killed was a little British pig.

Midi file of the tune.

Here's more on the "Pig War" from HistoryLink.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 06:49 PM

Lovely stuff. But since the pig's identified as Canadian in the second verse, maybe that last line should have been

And the only one got killed was that poor Canadian pig

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 07:32 PM

I don't know what John was thinking when he wrote "Canadian" rather than "English" (I don't think the pig had a passport). The farmer who owned the pig was English, as I understand it.

Local folklore has it that the English farmer and the American farmer (each considering the other an interloper) had had words several times about its rooting up potatoes in the American farmer's garden. The American would yell, "You keep your pig out of my potatoes!" in response to which the English farmer would yell back, "You keep your potatoes out of my pig!" Cutler finally warned the English farmer that the next time he saw the pig in his garden, he was going to shoot it. The following morning, there was the pig again, so he made good his threat.

I also understand that the English farmer was going to sue the American for the $100 he felt the pig was worth, but the problem was—under who's jurisdiction? The resulting argument over who got to try the case led to the thirteen year stand-off, with American troops on the south end of the island and British troops on the north end.

I also heard that the British and American troops used to party it up together while people in other parts of the world were yelling at each other.

As mentioned, once it was settled, it was determined that the only casualty in the hostilities was the gluttonous but unfortunate pig.

If you're going to have a war, I'd say that's a good way to do it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,BobL
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 03:23 AM

And does history record who got to eat the pig?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 10:22 AM

Well, Kevin, it seems to me that if somebody wants to consult Wikipedia, the first thing is to be clear on what the question is. Wikipedia does not deserve the scorn certain Mucatters have lavished on it.   But you do have to to consult the footnotes on Wikipedia and decide, especially in questions of history, whether you trust the source.

However in this case the problem is much easier:   all you have to do is read carefully--not a hallmark of Mudcat posters, admittedly. I have said more than once that the crisis I have in mind in this case is best known as "54-40 or Fight".    If a poster just types this into a search engine, you get the answer clearly--even on Wikipedia.   It appears you have not done this.

It was not 1859, but rather the 1844 campaign, and had to do with the border of the Oregon Territory.   As far as as I can tell, no pig was cited as a casus belli in this case, colorful as that would have been. I also have heard about the pig factor in the friction you cited, but for my question you are barking up the wrong tree.   No pig will come down.

There were in fact, as I have noted more than once, quite a few Americans who around 1844 wanted war with the UK unless the 54-40 border were acccepted.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 10:40 AM

What appears to have happened in this case is that Polk rode this slogan to victory, but partly since he knew there was also friction with Mexico (which he was not tamping down), he was in fact willing to compromise with the UK on the Oregon border, and in fact did so after his election.

But as you can no doubt see there was no "special relationship" at this point--just rivalry.

   Nor was there smooth sailing in US-UK relations at the time of the Civil War.   If you want to actually be serious about the topic, you might want to try leaving the pig alone and looking up "Trent Affair", not to mention the "Alabama".

At the time of the "Trent Affair", no doubt there were quite a few in the UK who did not look with disfavor on the prospect that the US would split into two parts permanently--and they would be willing to aid in that endeavor.   Lincoln realized his admininstration would have to back down and did so.

If you read enough history you have a better chance to avoid rash generalizations.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 11:04 AM

I actually find history endlessly fascinating; there are always more corners to poke into.

Even on Wiki you can learn quite a bit.   It appears that at the time of the "Trent" affair there was a considerable fear an American army would invade Canada.   So the British had contingency plans to invade the US---taking Portland and large sections of Maine. It was thought by at least one of the British strategists that there was a sizable group within Maine which was in favor of annexation to Canada.

I have some books on this period and I will be consulting them to see if they support Wiki on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 11:19 AM

Wiki even implies that the feeling in Britain that Maine might be willing to "change masters" was a factor in postponing the planned invasion of Maine.

It would be fascinating if a misreading of Maine was responsible for the UK actually making the right decision in this case--to postpone the invasion.      I'll try to get some more information on this question.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 03:42 PM

Ron, I'm not claiming that the dispute over the pig precipitated the situation. The "54-40 or fight" thing had been going on for some time, as had the British laying claim to all territory south to the Columbia River (which would include what became the State of Washington—where I live). The pig was an incident that precipitated the thirteen year stand-off on San Juan Island, where my great-grandfather had settled after coming over with the Hudson's Bay Company.

There are National Historical Parks on both ends of the island, English Camp at the north end and American Camp at the south end, where troops from the respective countries were stationed, pending possible hostilities. But during the some thirteen years (as I understand it) that the "Pig War" hung fire, there was a lot of fraternization with "the enemy." As I mentioned above, they would often get together at either one camp or another and "party it up."

An interesting side issue was Captain (later, General) George Pickett (good article in Wikipedia HERE). He was a Southerner, and it was known that there was a great chance of a Civil War pending. He was under secret orders from the South to try to get the United States involved in some kind of conflict, so that when the South tried to secede, the North would be too involved to offer much opposition. A war with the English, or a major war with the Indians, might do nicely.

Among other things, he issued orders that any large group of Indians who approached the island were to be immediately fired upon. This, knowing full well that every year a flotilla of about 6,000 Haida war canoes came down through the Straits of Georgia from the Queen Charlotte Islands, carrying Indians to help the local farmers with their harvest, in turn for a share of the crops.

Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed.

A brief but good rundown of the situation HERE.

As I mentioned, my great-grandfather came "'round the Horn" with the Hudson's Bay Company to Victoria, where Governor Douglas placed him in charge of the Belle-Vue ranch at the south end of San Juan Island. Once the dust cleared, he decided to settle there, returned to Scotand, married his sweetheart, Jessie, and brought her back to San Juan Island where they settled in and raised a family, which included my grandfather, then my father, who was born there, and miscellaneous aunts, and cousins by the dozens.

So I do have an interest in local history.

I was amazed when, on a trip to San Juan Island to visit some of those cousins and generally learn more about my father's birthplace, a park ranger at the American Camp asked me my name. When I told her and she heard my last name, she practically genuflected!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 05:10 PM

Don, I didn't direct any comment to you.   You are one of the people who reads posts, knows a lot about history, and not somebody from outside the US who wants to tell us about our own history.   Would there were more like you.

I did say "Well, Kevin...."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 05:49 PM

Occasional hot air from hot heads, occasionally even hot heads in high places, but no actual fighting.   In other words, nothing significant.   Never even a withdrawn ambassador or an expulsion of embassy staff.

Obviously there were some people in Britain and other countries who rather hoped the Civil War would mean the break-up of the USA, and who wouldn't have been averse to helping that along if the chance had arisen. After all there were a great many people in America who wanted that to happen, otherwise there wouldn't have been a Civil War. But popular sentiment in Britain was very much for Abolition.

In the same way many people in the USA always favoured the end of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and were pleased when it happened.

But war? No way.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 09:50 AM

"But war. No way".

Kevin, you may take my word for it. You do not live in the US. I've tried to tell you about the strong militaristic streak in the US.   If the British had in fact invaded Maine in 1861 and US citizens had been killed, there would have been war.   Lincoln could not have prevented it--though it would have been disastrous for the US, and possibly for the UK.

And it appears that such an invasion was planned.   It's very lucky for all sides that it was postponed, since it appears that it was considered necessary by some British strategists as a pre-emptive strike against the feared invasion of Canada.

By the way, "were pleased when it (breakup of the UK and Ireland) happened".   What do you mean by this?    Are you implying that all of Ireland was part of the UK?   I think the irish have always disagreed with this.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 09:52 AM

"the Irish"

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 10:26 AM

Are you implying that all of Ireland was part of the UK?

????

It was.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 10:41 AM

Did the Irish agree?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 10:55 AM

Ron

Sorry - that's a daft question!

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 11:11 AM

Sorry, it is not in fact a daft question--and I suspect you know this.   The attempted parallel was between the UK view on the US splitting in two and the US view on ireland becoming independent.

We have always felt Ireland's independence was a matter of justice.

Have you always felt the seceding of the South was a matter of justice?

Yes or no.   No tome necessary.

Thanks so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 11:31 AM

To try to preclude any chance for sophistry:

Ireland has the right to be independent.

Did the US South have the right to be independent?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 11:39 AM

Apologies for interjecting a simple fact into such a sophisticated argument.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 03:46 PM

It's not a matter of "if the British had invaded Maine there would have been a war. If the British had invaded Maine that would in itself have been an act of war, and a state of war would have existed. It might have been a small war, It might have been a big war. But it didn't happen.

If my uncle was a woman she'd be my aunt.

As for the rights and wrongs of the US and the UK breaking apart, that's completely irrelevant. In the event the US didn't break up, and the UK did, and the two countries never went to war over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Leadbelly
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 05:30 PM

What an interesting discussion! Couldn't understand all without a dictionary because I'm german.
But one thing I would like to correct. Ron isn't an a.....e. In an other tread obviously he was simply a little bit of arrogant or satyric to a nice Italian.
That's all right, Ron?
Believe, that you're highly intelligent.Like all others in this ongoing discussion.
And now:go on, friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 09:34 PM

"Have you always felt the seceding of the South was a matter of justice?"

No.

The North objected to slavery on moral grounds, and when the South wanted to extend slavery into the Western Territories, Lincoln and the Republican Party opposed the big, slave-owning plantation owners (my, how things have changed!). That's when the South's move to secede began.

I don't believe Ireland had a slavery issue. Did they?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 10:10 PM

It's not relevant to the question of relation between Britain and the USA - but thread drift is how the Mudcat works I suppose. Here's how I see it.

The thing is, there were two issues involved. The right to secede is in itself arguably intrinsic in setting up any kind of union. It's written into the European Union documents, for example, but I don't think that if it hadn't been that right would in any way cease to exist.

The constitutional set up with the United States was if course different, but I would suggest that for that right to be extinguished, It would have needed to be formally excluded in the USA Constitution, which it wasn't.

On the other hand no country has a right to operate a system involving chattel slavery, and it is reasonable to claim that its neighbours have the right to intervene to bring that to an end.

Yet another complication is that when the war started there was no question of imposing abolition on the states seeking to secede. In fact it was clearly stated at that point that if they stayed in the Union they could mantain the system within their territory. So formally the point at issue from the North's point of view was preventing secession rather than ending slavery.

It would have been hard for lookers-on to know where the balance of justice lay. Fortunately, I would imagine they would have felt, it wasn't up to them to determine that.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 11:09 PM

The problem is with Kevin's post of 5:49 PM.   18 Aug.   All parties need to read this again. He states that there were folks in the UK who were in favor of the breakup of the US, and "in the same way many people in the USA always favored the end of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and were pleased when it happened".

It's not "in the same way".   Americans were in favor of independence for Ireland as a matter of justice.   Only if you feel that the secession of the South was a matter of justice for the South is there a parallel.


I'm not surprised some want to dodge the issue. (Again, Don, I'm not addressing you.)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 04:30 AM

A bat is a mammal in the same way that a horse is a mammal. That is because they are both mammals. They are also mammals in a different way from each other. The way we use language is confusing.

"Justice" would have been only one possible reason someone might have favoured Southern secession. Perceived national advantage tends to be a stronger motive in such issues.

In any case, as I argued in my previous post, there was a case for arguing that there was an intrinsic right of secession - and at the same time that the question of slavery transcended that right in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 07:42 AM

I note that 1818 Thomas Jefferson wrote "If any State in the Union will declare that it prefers separation with the first alternative, to a continuance in union without it, I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate'. " This was at a time when the idea of secession by states in the North was a live issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 06:09 PM

It seems sophistry is hard to combat.


Face it, Kevin, no matter how many times you try to allege it, there is no parallel between Americans' view on Ireland's independence and Britons' views on independence for the South--unless you think the South had a right to be independent just as Ireland did.

On most threads, especially those on history, I believe in reading carefully, doing research, thinking, and expressing myself as clearly as possible. History is enough of a minefield without sloppy reasoning or encouraging the same.    You were wrong on 1859 as being the occasion for "54-40 or Fight" and you are wrong on this one also--there is no parallel. Nobody is perfect.   When I am wrong I admit it and go on.

If somebody drags an absurd connection into a discussion, e.g. bringing St. Paul into a discussion of putting "na-na-na" onto the end of songs, then of course any off-the wall remark and in fact ridicule is just fine in my book.    Otherwise, accuracy is a good goal.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 07:00 PM

Ron, I wonder why you keep recapitulating a situation on another thread in which you definitely failed to read properly and to strive for full understanding, as everybody who cares can find out (- no need to argue).

In your current "feud", I am inclined to assign you more expertise, but even for the most sublime wisdom it suffices to write it down once.—

Wars are not the main sources of national clichés and emotions. Often it is the other way round. Still, the fight of the Irish for independence has raised romantic sympathy not only in the USA, but also in Germany and France, and presumably in other countries. It predates Böll's "Irish Diary" by far.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 07:37 PM

I never even mentioned anything about "54 or fight", but only the odd little episode from 1859.

The point in common between anyone in other countries who liked the ida of the USA breaking and the UK breaking was precisely that - they liked the idea of the country concerned dividing. Why they might have wished that to happen, whether that might have been for similar reasons or not, and whether you, I or anybody else might agree with them is a completely different question.

In fact, as I indicated, I believe that in any free union there has to be an intrinsic right of secession. For example, if in next year's referendum the Scots vote for independence they will be entitled to have it. Nowadays that is the settled view of the Westminster Gvernment in such matters - having learnt a hard lesson in Ireland back in the Twenties. The same will apply if the people of Wales or Northern Ireland make the same choice in time.

Howwever a right of secession is not the only relevant right which can come into play, and the case of the South in 1860 is complicated by the existence of slavery as a motivation for secession. This would have made it impossible to see it as a simple expression of the right to secede, in contrast to the position if, for example the earlier calls for Northen secession had won majority support and led to the declaration of a Republic of New England. Or of course the position held by those who supported the right of Ireland to full independence at the time when England was mantaining an unfree Union,

But none of this is in any way relevant to the fact that in both the USA and the UK there were people who, for whatever reason, favoured a part of the other country breaking away.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 09:13 PM

Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 13 - 09:23 PM

As for why St. Paul, etc.:   first, it happened recently so it's still fresh;   second, it was one of the most absurd juxtapositions I've seen in a while, and therefore just wonderful fodder for ridicule.    That was a fun thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 06:10 AM

Ron (20 Aug 13 - 09:23 PM), of course you are welcome to quote other threads, fresh or old, and to make jokes. I was just wondering why you keep mentioning that discussion about the history of non-semantic yet meaningful and powerful singing or chanting, where your "reading carefully, doing research, thinking, and expressing myself as clearly as possible" was sorely lacking in spite of your claims to the contrary. Jokes have their places afterwards. Aggressive behaviour, including "ridiculing", is rarely conducive to one's reputation, even if one is "right". McGrath and most of us can do without it; your education should enable you to follow.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 08:48 AM

Aiin't thread drift wonderful? I wonder where this will head next, assuming it does head anywhere?

I think when carrying stuff over from other threads - quotations, discussionns or feuds - it's as well to give some indication of the threads concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 09:27 AM

Here is the thread Ron was referring to, for those who are interested. No big deal in my view, and definitely not what I would like to discuss here.

Romantic feelings towards Ireland are a more interesting topic. The above post

From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:21 PM
Good piece by the Irish novelist Hugo Hamilton here, by the way

gives us an important hint with respect to postwar Germany, but the phenomenon is much older and also known in other countries. Dreams of Ireland imagined a people of higher integrity and self-identity than found in continental Europe. Strangely enough, our avid reading of "A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" did not destroy that image, but amplified it. (I was about to quote St. Paul: "Read Joyce" ...)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Aug 13 - 11:12 PM

"It seems sophistry is hard to combat."

QED

And Grishka, I'm sorry if you don't approve of the citing of the St. Paul connection. It was the luck of the draw as to what I cited as an absurd combination.   You're welcome to substitute your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 08:40 AM

Ron, please read my posts as hints to you, not as complaints. You have the potential to improve your reputation greatly if you cut your sometimes aggressive and repetitive rhetorics. Try to analyze why you attract the attribute "feud-addicted" - not my own words - as opposed to other posters of equally strong opinions. (Not being quite in the picture is a comparatively minor fault, which can happen to anybody, and does not concern this thread anyway.)

You scored some points in your favour upthread, notably when hurrying to Leadbelly/Manfred's consolation.—

Back to Ireland: there were periods in which anything Irish, "even" James Joyce, was very fashionable in France. In the 1970s I heard someone say in Paris "We are Irish from Northern Ireland", to justify their British passports. Many French would have loved to visit Ireland as the Germans did, were it not for the food ...

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 12:09 PM

I had a look at that other thread. Bringing in St Paul"s views on glossolalia in the context of the use of nonsense words seemed quite a reasonable thing to do, and not an "absurd combination". Nothing worth anyone getting their knickers in a twist. Or worth discussing further.

Irish food? Pretty good if you care enough about that stuff to look around. Like German food in that respect. Personally I like to keep it simple, and stick to good potatoes and bacon with a bit of cabbage.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 01:32 PM

Irish food: ... not my own opinion of course, having spent my early childhood in the Soviet Union, and later moved to England and Germany.

The French are not too keen on going abroad altogether, compared to Germans. Dreaming is more comfortable than reality. Some young rebels from northern France went to southern France for holidays, where the food is excellent, joining their German and Dutch peers. They assured the natives of their solidarity by sticking Languedoc emblems on their Renaults. The natives may have had similar mixed feelings as the Irish (- ask our expert Monique if you dare).

The important point is that Ireland and England are quite different in their emotional relations to other countries. Bev and Jerry (12 Aug 13 - 07:32 PM) tell us that Americans have a slight headstart in Ireland, based on the assumption that they are lost relatives. If they declare themselves Catholics and mention a St. Patrick's Parade, they are practically naturalized (even if their name is Mancini or Wysztawczocki). In Germany, mentioning a Cleveland Octoberfest does not do the trick even for a John Luther Schumann; good language skills (like presumably Ron's) will work, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Airto
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 03:48 PM

In Ireland 'Germans' means Germans. There's no need to be reading anything else into the text of the play.

"Are they from Germany? ...We call them Germans... Where are they from? Is it Denmark, or Norway? It's somewhere like that... Ah, I don't know where the fuck they're from."

I would read this as meaning the character had assumed they were from Germany, but "now that you ask me, I don't actually know, they could be from some other country in that part of the world", or words to that effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 04:19 PM

"We call them Germans", together with the expletive, sounds like the speaker is not too interested in their exact country of origin. "We call them all Japanese, though some of them may be from China or Korea" would be a similar statement, slightly short of PC, though not by far the kind of slur that McGrath mentioned in his first post. I think the question of the OP has been answered to everybody's satisfaction.

Tourism and nations is a large topic, though, also relevant above the line. Those who only look at wars and governments miss many important aspects, both in history and nowadays.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Airto
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 04:09 AM

"We call them Germans", together with the expletive, sounds like the speaker is not too interested in their exact country of origin. "We call them all Japanese, though some of them may be from China or Korea" would be a similar statement, slightly short of PC,....



Exactly

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 06:31 AM

Rather the same way Canadians get grouped in as Americans, or New Zealanders as Australians.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 04:33 AM

"Huns" is a slang term in the North.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 09:09 AM

It's hardly an expression restricted to "the North", whichever North that refers to, though it's not particularly current these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 10:06 AM

It is current in Belfast, if not elsewhere in the North.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 11:28 AM

It seems it had to be, justifying Leadbelly/Manfred's apprehension.

For those who really do not know: any name-calling of nations, ethnics, races, and other collectives is strongly impolite, unless used in special "slang" situations such as sports events with national teams. Examples for such words include "Tommies", "Krauts", "Yanks", and abbreviations such as "Japs" and "Gerries".

The H word is a downright insult, similar to the N word, even if those addressed are not present or do not feel insulted. If you use these words outside very small circles of like-minded, make sure you mean them. The insult is not only to Germans, but also to British war efforts: the latter, however questionable in some detail, had much better moral justifications than a dumb and evil speech by Queen Victoria's grandson (or, referring to another "popular" invective, Hitler's alleged deficit in testicles).

I am always surprised of the extent to which parts of British society seem to be isolated from relevant discussions in the rest of the world (including Ireland and the USA). Even a perfect gentleman like McGrath, who never dreams of insulting anybody, does not appear entirely up-to-date in these matters. Mudcat may not be the best training ground for beginners, but has many relevant threads which make good reading - preferably prior to posting.

(I wish I were a perfect gentleman myself, but I sometimes feel obliged to teach the world and thus to take the blame of criticizing, pontificating, patronizing, and pedantry.)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 12:00 PM

Many years ago I used to spend a couple of weeks each summer teaching sailing with a French (Breton, rather) organisation which had bases in Ireland. I remember calling in to the Dublin office one year before heading to the West Cork base; I was handed a list of the Irish participants for the week. At the bottom of the page was a note - "+ 10 Frogs'. My French instructor colleague duly arrived from France with the list of French participants, at the bottom of which was written - "+ 10 Paddies".

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 03:40 PM

I don't think anyone would be insulted by the use of the word Tommy. It applied only to British soldiers (not civilians) and started out as an example of how to fill out an army paybook - Tommy Atkins was the example given - as was given wider popularity by Kipling. The other examples you give are certainly used insultingly in Britain as well as affectionately in the case of Yanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 04:31 PM

One thing that helps keep such terms understood and alive is that they are short and handy for headlines.

Most of the time it isn't that the words in themselves are particularly offensive. It's the intent - if you feel hate of people, any word to use to refer to them is coloured by that hate, including the official label. If you feel affection, the very same word will convey affection. "Yanks", or "Americans" are prime examples. So are. "Brits" or "British" is another.

There are some words, and some places, where a legacy of hatred overrides that, and any kind of nickname will be understood as conveying hatred, even when that's not intended.   The official label won't convey the same message, though of course it can be used with the same hostile intent.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 06:03 PM

It is everybody's own choice and responsibility. On a public forum, we always speak to the world, who might not know about our feelings or intention, even if the previous poster to the same thread does. I would never use any such word, to be on the safe side, and, even more importantly, to present myself as an opponent of name-calling altogether.

To sum up, I would list the breaches of politeness in question in order of increasing seriousness as follows:

1. Subsuming smaller groups under the name of a larger one, as in the quotation of the OP
2. Doing so with an implied slur, e.g. racial ("they're all the same")
3. Using a nonstandard collective name or abbreviation publicly
4. Using such a name that indicates a cliché, e.g. a dish or a first name
5. Insulting the group by an established derogatory name, e.g. the H word, clearly meaning "off civilization".

For discussions about possibly acceptable names, see the dedicated threads - I am rarely convinced, particularly of universal acceptability.

The notion PC = "politically correct" is not really adequate here; I used it for brevity. The original idea behind it was to give special protection to groups that deserve political solidarity, which sounds OK at first sight, but can lead to absurd consequences. (Besides, "PC" can be understood in the context of "doublethink" as "not really correct, but politically desired". It is rumoured that this ironic interpretation predates the serious one.)

"Politeness" suffices for our topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 06:33 PM

Leaving aside national labels, where different rules apply, If hate or contempt is intended, the acceptable name for any group can carry it just as effectively. And sooner or later that initially acceptable name is likely to become only usable with an explanation, or unusable.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 12:40 AM

What a wandery thread! A couple of further side-paths: I think (though I'm open to correction) that inequality of income lessened during the Celtic Tiger years; certainly social mobility increased - I was constantly talking to millionaire entrepreneurs who were the sons or daughters of milkmen or truck-drivers, something that used to make me get all teary-eyed with happy pride.
The second point: Ireland is about to take history off its core school curriculum, in a completely mad action.
If I remember The Weir correctly, it's an extremely creepy play about a child abuser who continues his abuse of a loved child beyond the grave when both are buried in the same graveyard. Do I?
As for the definition of the place name, there are many places in Ireland with names including 'Corrán', which literally means a heronry; since herons tend to hang around weirs, where the underwater grasses are attractive to fish, this is fairly interchangeable with the term for a weir.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 05:08 AM

The Daily Mail online has a feature headlined "We shall fight them on the beaches..." - about German tourists arriving in the UK. It's a slightly bitter joke across Europe that German tourists get up early and rush down to the edge of the sea or pool to distribute towels on the beach loungers with the most convenient location, to say "dibs on these"; other nationalities arrive down to see huge numbers of empty loungers with towels on them so no one else can use them.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 07:38 AM

The "huns" slang of my comment is a sectarian term of abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 04:53 PM

I wonder if the line about how at the time of the Easter Rising
"Britannia's huns with their longrange guns sailed in through the Foggy Dew"
originated that usage or originated in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 05:11 PM

I wonder if the line about how at the time of the Easter Rising
"Britannia's huns with their longrange guns sailed in through the Foggy Dew"
originated that usage or originated in it.

My recollection is that the original had "sons" and that "huns" is a later - and not frequently used in my experience - alternative. Apart from anything else, the author, a Catholic priest, was unlikely to use it.

Regards