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BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: MartinRyan Date: 25 Aug 13 - 05:11 PM I wonder if the line about how at the time of the Easter Rising "Britannia's huns with their longrange guns sailed in through the Foggy Dew" originated that usage or originated in it. My recollection is that the original had "sons" and that "huns" is a later - and not frequently used in my experience - alternative. Apart from anything else, the author, a Catholic priest, was unlikely to use it. Regards |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Aug 13 - 04:53 PM I wonder if the line about how at the time of the Easter Rising "Britannia's huns with their longrange guns sailed in through the Foggy Dew" originated that usage or originated in it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 25 Aug 13 - 07:38 AM The "huns" slang of my comment is a sectarian term of abuse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: GUEST,JTT Date: 25 Aug 13 - 05:08 AM The Daily Mail online has a feature headlined "We shall fight them on the beaches..." - about German tourists arriving in the UK. It's a slightly bitter joke across Europe that German tourists get up early and rush down to the edge of the sea or pool to distribute towels on the beach loungers with the most convenient location, to say "dibs on these"; other nationalities arrive down to see huge numbers of empty loungers with towels on them so no one else can use them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: GUEST,JTT Date: 25 Aug 13 - 12:40 AM What a wandery thread! A couple of further side-paths: I think (though I'm open to correction) that inequality of income lessened during the Celtic Tiger years; certainly social mobility increased - I was constantly talking to millionaire entrepreneurs who were the sons or daughters of milkmen or truck-drivers, something that used to make me get all teary-eyed with happy pride. The second point: Ireland is about to take history off its core school curriculum, in a completely mad action. If I remember The Weir correctly, it's an extremely creepy play about a child abuser who continues his abuse of a loved child beyond the grave when both are buried in the same graveyard. Do I? As for the definition of the place name, there are many places in Ireland with names including 'Corrán', which literally means a heronry; since herons tend to hang around weirs, where the underwater grasses are attractive to fish, this is fairly interchangeable with the term for a weir. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Aug 13 - 06:33 PM Leaving aside national labels, where different rules apply, If hate or contempt is intended, the acceptable name for any group can carry it just as effectively. And sooner or later that initially acceptable name is likely to become only usable with an explanation, or unusable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 24 Aug 13 - 06:03 PM It is everybody's own choice and responsibility. On a public forum, we always speak to the world, who might not know about our feelings or intention, even if the previous poster to the same thread does. I would never use any such word, to be on the safe side, and, even more importantly, to present myself as an opponent of name-calling altogether. To sum up, I would list the breaches of politeness in question in order of increasing seriousness as follows:
The notion PC = "politically correct" is not really adequate here; I used it for brevity. The original idea behind it was to give special protection to groups that deserve political solidarity, which sounds OK at first sight, but can lead to absurd consequences. (Besides, "PC" can be understood in the context of "doublethink" as "not really correct, but politically desired". It is rumoured that this ironic interpretation predates the serious one.) "Politeness" suffices for our topic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Aug 13 - 04:31 PM One thing that helps keep such terms understood and alive is that they are short and handy for headlines. Most of the time it isn't that the words in themselves are particularly offensive. It's the intent - if you feel hate of people, any word to use to refer to them is coloured by that hate, including the official label. If you feel affection, the very same word will convey affection. "Yanks", or "Americans" are prime examples. So are. "Brits" or "British" is another. There are some words, and some places, where a legacy of hatred overrides that, and any kind of nickname will be understood as conveying hatred, even when that's not intended. The official label won't convey the same message, though of course it can be used with the same hostile intent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: Manitas_at_home Date: 24 Aug 13 - 03:40 PM I don't think anyone would be insulted by the use of the word Tommy. It applied only to British soldiers (not civilians) and started out as an example of how to fill out an army paybook - Tommy Atkins was the example given - as was given wider popularity by Kipling. The other examples you give are certainly used insultingly in Britain as well as affectionately in the case of Yanks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: MartinRyan Date: 24 Aug 13 - 12:00 PM Many years ago I used to spend a couple of weeks each summer teaching sailing with a French (Breton, rather) organisation which had bases in Ireland. I remember calling in to the Dublin office one year before heading to the West Cork base; I was handed a list of the Irish participants for the week. At the bottom of the page was a note - "+ 10 Frogs'. My French instructor colleague duly arrived from France with the list of French participants, at the bottom of which was written - "+ 10 Paddies". Regards |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 24 Aug 13 - 11:28 AM It seems it had to be, justifying Leadbelly/Manfred's apprehension. For those who really do not know: any name-calling of nations, ethnics, races, and other collectives is strongly impolite, unless used in special "slang" situations such as sports events with national teams. Examples for such words include "Tommies", "Krauts", "Yanks", and abbreviations such as "Japs" and "Gerries". The H word is a downright insult, similar to the N word, even if those addressed are not present or do not feel insulted. If you use these words outside very small circles of like-minded, make sure you mean them. The insult is not only to Germans, but also to British war efforts: the latter, however questionable in some detail, had much better moral justifications than a dumb and evil speech by Queen Victoria's grandson (or, referring to another "popular" invective, Hitler's alleged deficit in testicles). I am always surprised of the extent to which parts of British society seem to be isolated from relevant discussions in the rest of the world (including Ireland and the USA). Even a perfect gentleman like McGrath, who never dreams of insulting anybody, does not appear entirely up-to-date in these matters. Mudcat may not be the best training ground for beginners, but has many relevant threads which make good reading - preferably prior to posting. (I wish I were a perfect gentleman myself, but I sometimes feel obliged to teach the world and thus to take the blame of criticizing, pontificating, patronizing, and pedantry.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 24 Aug 13 - 10:06 AM It is current in Belfast, if not elsewhere in the North. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Aug 13 - 09:09 AM It's hardly an expression restricted to "the North", whichever North that refers to, though it's not particularly current these days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 24 Aug 13 - 04:33 AM "Huns" is a slang term in the North. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Aug 13 - 06:31 AM Rather the same way Canadians get grouped in as Americans, or New Zealanders as Australians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: GUEST,Airto Date: 23 Aug 13 - 04:09 AM "We call them Germans", together with the expletive, sounds like the speaker is not too interested in their exact country of origin. "We call them all Japanese, though some of them may be from China or Korea" would be a similar statement, slightly short of PC,.... Exactly |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 22 Aug 13 - 04:19 PM "We call them Germans", together with the expletive, sounds like the speaker is not too interested in their exact country of origin. "We call them all Japanese, though some of them may be from China or Korea" would be a similar statement, slightly short of PC, though not by far the kind of slur that McGrath mentioned in his first post. I think the question of the OP has been answered to everybody's satisfaction. Tourism and nations is a large topic, though, also relevant above the line. Those who only look at wars and governments miss many important aspects, both in history and nowadays. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: GUEST,Airto Date: 22 Aug 13 - 03:48 PM In Ireland 'Germans' means Germans. There's no need to be reading anything else into the text of the play. "Are they from Germany? ...We call them Germans... Where are they from? Is it Denmark, or Norway? It's somewhere like that... Ah, I don't know where the fuck they're from." I would read this as meaning the character had assumed they were from Germany, but "now that you ask me, I don't actually know, they could be from some other country in that part of the world", or words to that effect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 22 Aug 13 - 01:32 PM Irish food: ... not my own opinion of course, having spent my early childhood in the Soviet Union, and later moved to England and Germany. The French are not too keen on going abroad altogether, compared to Germans. Dreaming is more comfortable than reality. Some young rebels from northern France went to southern France for holidays, where the food is excellent, joining their German and Dutch peers. They assured the natives of their solidarity by sticking Languedoc emblems on their Renaults. The natives may have had similar mixed feelings as the Irish (- ask our expert Monique if you dare). The important point is that Ireland and England are quite different in their emotional relations to other countries. Bev and Jerry (12 Aug 13 - 07:32 PM) tell us that Americans have a slight headstart in Ireland, based on the assumption that they are lost relatives. If they declare themselves Catholics and mention a St. Patrick's Parade, they are practically naturalized (even if their name is Mancini or Wysztawczocki). In Germany, mentioning a Cleveland Octoberfest does not do the trick even for a John Luther Schumann; good language skills (like presumably Ron's) will work, though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Aug 13 - 12:09 PM I had a look at that other thread. Bringing in St Paul"s views on glossolalia in the context of the use of nonsense words seemed quite a reasonable thing to do, and not an "absurd combination". Nothing worth anyone getting their knickers in a twist. Or worth discussing further. Irish food? Pretty good if you care enough about that stuff to look around. Like German food in that respect. Personally I like to keep it simple, and stick to good potatoes and bacon with a bit of cabbage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 22 Aug 13 - 08:40 AM Ron, please read my posts as hints to you, not as complaints. You have the potential to improve your reputation greatly if you cut your sometimes aggressive and repetitive rhetorics. Try to analyze why you attract the attribute "feud-addicted" - not my own words - as opposed to other posters of equally strong opinions. (Not being quite in the picture is a comparatively minor fault, which can happen to anybody, and does not concern this thread anyway.) You scored some points in your favour upthread, notably when hurrying to Leadbelly/Manfred's consolation.— Back to Ireland: there were periods in which anything Irish, "even" James Joyce, was very fashionable in France. In the 1970s I heard someone say in Paris "We are Irish from Northern Ireland", to justify their British passports. Many French would have loved to visit Ireland as the Germans did, were it not for the food ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: Ron Davies Date: 21 Aug 13 - 11:12 PM "It seems sophistry is hard to combat." QED And Grishka, I'm sorry if you don't approve of the citing of the St. Paul connection. It was the luck of the draw as to what I cited as an absurd combination. You're welcome to substitute your choice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 21 Aug 13 - 09:27 AM Here is the thread Ron was referring to, for those who are interested. No big deal in my view, and definitely not what I would like to discuss here. Romantic feelings towards Ireland are a more interesting topic. The above post From: GUEST,JTTgives us an important hint with respect to postwar Germany, but the phenomenon is much older and also known in other countries. Dreams of Ireland imagined a people of higher integrity and self-identity than found in continental Europe. Strangely enough, our avid reading of "A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" did not destroy that image, but amplified it. (I was about to quote St. Paul: "Read Joyce" ...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Aug 13 - 08:48 AM Aiin't thread drift wonderful? I wonder where this will head next, assuming it does head anywhere? I think when carrying stuff over from other threads - quotations, discussionns or feuds - it's as well to give some indication of the threads concerned. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 21 Aug 13 - 06:10 AM Ron (20 Aug 13 - 09:23 PM), of course you are welcome to quote other threads, fresh or old, and to make jokes. I was just wondering why you keep mentioning that discussion about the history of non-semantic yet meaningful and powerful singing or chanting, where your "reading carefully, doing research, thinking, and expressing myself as clearly as possible" was sorely lacking in spite of your claims to the contrary. Jokes have their places afterwards. Aggressive behaviour, including "ridiculing", is rarely conducive to one's reputation, even if one is "right". McGrath and most of us can do without it; your education should enable you to follow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Aug 13 - 09:23 PM As for why St. Paul, etc.: first, it happened recently so it's still fresh; second, it was one of the most absurd juxtapositions I've seen in a while, and therefore just wonderful fodder for ridicule. That was a fun thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Aug 13 - 09:13 PM Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Aug 13 - 07:37 PM I never even mentioned anything about "54 or fight", but only the odd little episode from 1859. The point in common between anyone in other countries who liked the ida of the USA breaking and the UK breaking was precisely that - they liked the idea of the country concerned dividing. Why they might have wished that to happen, whether that might have been for similar reasons or not, and whether you, I or anybody else might agree with them is a completely different question. In fact, as I indicated, I believe that in any free union there has to be an intrinsic right of secession. For example, if in next year's referendum the Scots vote for independence they will be entitled to have it. Nowadays that is the settled view of the Westminster Gvernment in such matters - having learnt a hard lesson in Ireland back in the Twenties. The same will apply if the people of Wales or Northern Ireland make the same choice in time. Howwever a right of secession is not the only relevant right which can come into play, and the case of the South in 1860 is complicated by the existence of slavery as a motivation for secession. This would have made it impossible to see it as a simple expression of the right to secede, in contrast to the position if, for example the earlier calls for Northen secession had won majority support and led to the declaration of a Republic of New England. Or of course the position held by those who supported the right of Ireland to full independence at the time when England was mantaining an unfree Union, But none of this is in any way relevant to the fact that in both the USA and the UK there were people who, for whatever reason, favoured a part of the other country breaking away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 20 Aug 13 - 07:00 PM Ron, I wonder why you keep recapitulating a situation on another thread in which you definitely failed to read properly and to strive for full understanding, as everybody who cares can find out (- no need to argue). In your current "feud", I am inclined to assign you more expertise, but even for the most sublime wisdom it suffices to write it down once.— Wars are not the main sources of national clichés and emotions. Often it is the other way round. Still, the fight of the Irish for independence has raised romantic sympathy not only in the USA, but also in Germany and France, and presumably in other countries. It predates Böll's "Irish Diary" by far. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Aug 13 - 06:09 PM It seems sophistry is hard to combat. Face it, Kevin, no matter how many times you try to allege it, there is no parallel between Americans' view on Ireland's independence and Britons' views on independence for the South--unless you think the South had a right to be independent just as Ireland did. On most threads, especially those on history, I believe in reading carefully, doing research, thinking, and expressing myself as clearly as possible. History is enough of a minefield without sloppy reasoning or encouraging the same. You were wrong on 1859 as being the occasion for "54-40 or Fight" and you are wrong on this one also--there is no parallel. Nobody is perfect. When I am wrong I admit it and go on. If somebody drags an absurd connection into a discussion, e.g. bringing St. Paul into a discussion of putting "na-na-na" onto the end of songs, then of course any off-the wall remark and in fact ridicule is just fine in my book. Otherwise, accuracy is a good goal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Aug 13 - 07:42 AM I note that 1818 Thomas Jefferson wrote "If any State in the Union will declare that it prefers separation with the first alternative, to a continuance in union without it, I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate'. " This was at a time when the idea of secession by states in the North was a live issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Aug 13 - 04:30 AM A bat is a mammal in the same way that a horse is a mammal. That is because they are both mammals. They are also mammals in a different way from each other. The way we use language is confusing. "Justice" would have been only one possible reason someone might have favoured Southern secession. Perceived national advantage tends to be a stronger motive in such issues. In any case, as I argued in my previous post, there was a case for arguing that there was an intrinsic right of secession - and at the same time that the question of slavery transcended that right in this case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: Ron Davies Date: 19 Aug 13 - 11:09 PM The problem is with Kevin's post of 5:49 PM. 18 Aug. All parties need to read this again. He states that there were folks in the UK who were in favor of the breakup of the US, and "in the same way many people in the USA always favored the end of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and were pleased when it happened". It's not "in the same way". Americans were in favor of independence for Ireland as a matter of justice. Only if you feel that the secession of the South was a matter of justice for the South is there a parallel. I'm not surprised some want to dodge the issue. (Again, Don, I'm not addressing you.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Aug 13 - 10:10 PM It's not relevant to the question of relation between Britain and the USA - but thread drift is how the Mudcat works I suppose. Here's how I see it. The thing is, there were two issues involved. The right to secede is in itself arguably intrinsic in setting up any kind of union. It's written into the European Union documents, for example, but I don't think that if it hadn't been that right would in any way cease to exist. The constitutional set up with the United States was if course different, but I would suggest that for that right to be extinguished, It would have needed to be formally excluded in the USA Constitution, which it wasn't. On the other hand no country has a right to operate a system involving chattel slavery, and it is reasonable to claim that its neighbours have the right to intervene to bring that to an end. Yet another complication is that when the war started there was no question of imposing abolition on the states seeking to secede. In fact it was clearly stated at that point that if they stayed in the Union they could mantain the system within their territory. So formally the point at issue from the North's point of view was preventing secession rather than ending slavery. It would have been hard for lookers-on to know where the balance of justice lay. Fortunately, I would imagine they would have felt, it wasn't up to them to determine that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: Don Firth Date: 19 Aug 13 - 09:34 PM "Have you always felt the seceding of the South was a matter of justice?" No. The North objected to slavery on moral grounds, and when the South wanted to extend slavery into the Western Territories, Lincoln and the Republican Party opposed the big, slave-owning plantation owners (my, how things have changed!). That's when the South's move to secede began. I don't believe Ireland had a slavery issue. Did they? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: Leadbelly Date: 19 Aug 13 - 05:30 PM What an interesting discussion! Couldn't understand all without a dictionary because I'm german. But one thing I would like to correct. Ron isn't an a.....e. In an other tread obviously he was simply a little bit of arrogant or satyric to a nice Italian. That's all right, Ron? Believe, that you're highly intelligent.Like all others in this ongoing discussion. And now:go on, friends. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Aug 13 - 03:46 PM It's not a matter of "if the British had invaded Maine there would have been a war. If the British had invaded Maine that would in itself have been an act of war, and a state of war would have existed. It might have been a small war, It might have been a big war. But it didn't happen. If my uncle was a woman she'd be my aunt. As for the rights and wrongs of the US and the UK breaking apart, that's completely irrelevant. In the event the US didn't break up, and the UK did, and the two countries never went to war over it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: MartinRyan Date: 19 Aug 13 - 11:39 AM Apologies for interjecting a simple fact into such a sophisticated argument. Regards |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: Ron Davies Date: 19 Aug 13 - 11:31 AM To try to preclude any chance for sophistry: Ireland has the right to be independent. Did the US South have the right to be independent? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: Ron Davies Date: 19 Aug 13 - 11:11 AM Sorry, it is not in fact a daft question--and I suspect you know this. The attempted parallel was between the UK view on the US splitting in two and the US view on ireland becoming independent. We have always felt Ireland's independence was a matter of justice. Have you always felt the seceding of the South was a matter of justice? Yes or no. No tome necessary. Thanks so much. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: MartinRyan Date: 19 Aug 13 - 10:55 AM Ron Sorry - that's a daft question! Regards |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: Ron Davies Date: 19 Aug 13 - 10:41 AM Did the Irish agree? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: MartinRyan Date: 19 Aug 13 - 10:26 AM Are you implying that all of Ireland was part of the UK? ???? It was. Regards |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: Ron Davies Date: 19 Aug 13 - 09:52 AM "the Irish" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: Ron Davies Date: 19 Aug 13 - 09:50 AM "But war. No way". Kevin, you may take my word for it. You do not live in the US. I've tried to tell you about the strong militaristic streak in the US. If the British had in fact invaded Maine in 1861 and US citizens had been killed, there would have been war. Lincoln could not have prevented it--though it would have been disastrous for the US, and possibly for the UK. And it appears that such an invasion was planned. It's very lucky for all sides that it was postponed, since it appears that it was considered necessary by some British strategists as a pre-emptive strike against the feared invasion of Canada. By the way, "were pleased when it (breakup of the UK and Ireland) happened". What do you mean by this? Are you implying that all of Ireland was part of the UK? I think the irish have always disagreed with this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Aug 13 - 05:49 PM Occasional hot air from hot heads, occasionally even hot heads in high places, but no actual fighting. In other words, nothing significant. Never even a withdrawn ambassador or an expulsion of embassy staff. Obviously there were some people in Britain and other countries who rather hoped the Civil War would mean the break-up of the USA, and who wouldn't have been averse to helping that along if the chance had arisen. After all there were a great many people in America who wanted that to happen, otherwise there wouldn't have been a Civil War. But popular sentiment in Britain was very much for Abolition. In the same way many people in the USA always favoured the end of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and were pleased when it happened. But war? No way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: Ron Davies Date: 18 Aug 13 - 05:10 PM Don, I didn't direct any comment to you. You are one of the people who reads posts, knows a lot about history, and not somebody from outside the US who wants to tell us about our own history. Would there were more like you. I did say "Well, Kevin...." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: Don Firth Date: 18 Aug 13 - 03:42 PM Ron, I'm not claiming that the dispute over the pig precipitated the situation. The "54-40 or fight" thing had been going on for some time, as had the British laying claim to all territory south to the Columbia River (which would include what became the State of Washington—where I live). The pig was an incident that precipitated the thirteen year stand-off on San Juan Island, where my great-grandfather had settled after coming over with the Hudson's Bay Company. There are National Historical Parks on both ends of the island, English Camp at the north end and American Camp at the south end, where troops from the respective countries were stationed, pending possible hostilities. But during the some thirteen years (as I understand it) that the "Pig War" hung fire, there was a lot of fraternization with "the enemy." As I mentioned above, they would often get together at either one camp or another and "party it up." An interesting side issue was Captain (later, General) George Pickett (good article in Wikipedia HERE). He was a Southerner, and it was known that there was a great chance of a Civil War pending. He was under secret orders from the South to try to get the United States involved in some kind of conflict, so that when the South tried to secede, the North would be too involved to offer much opposition. A war with the English, or a major war with the Indians, might do nicely. Among other things, he issued orders that any large group of Indians who approached the island were to be immediately fired upon. This, knowing full well that every year a flotilla of about 6,000 Haida war canoes came down through the Straits of Georgia from the Queen Charlotte Islands, carrying Indians to help the local farmers with their harvest, in turn for a share of the crops. Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed. A brief but good rundown of the situation HERE. As I mentioned, my great-grandfather came "'round the Horn" with the Hudson's Bay Company to Victoria, where Governor Douglas placed him in charge of the Belle-Vue ranch at the south end of San Juan Island. Once the dust cleared, he decided to settle there, returned to Scotand, married his sweetheart, Jessie, and brought her back to San Juan Island where they settled in and raised a family, which included my grandfather, then my father, who was born there, and miscellaneous aunts, and cousins by the dozens. So I do have an interest in local history. I was amazed when, on a trip to San Juan Island to visit some of those cousins and generally learn more about my father's birthplace, a park ranger at the American Camp asked me my name. When I told her and she heard my last name, she practically genuflected!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: Ron Davies Date: 18 Aug 13 - 11:19 AM Wiki even implies that the feeling in Britain that Maine might be willing to "change masters" was a factor in postponing the planned invasion of Maine. It would be fascinating if a misreading of Maine was responsible for the UK actually making the right decision in this case--to postpone the invasion. I'll try to get some more information on this question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans' From: Ron Davies Date: 18 Aug 13 - 11:04 AM I actually find history endlessly fascinating; there are always more corners to poke into. Even on Wiki you can learn quite a bit. It appears that at the time of the "Trent" affair there was a considerable fear an American army would invade Canada. So the British had contingency plans to invade the US---taking Portland and large sections of Maine. It was thought by at least one of the British strategists that there was a sizable group within Maine which was in favor of annexation to Canada. I have some books on this period and I will be consulting them to see if they support Wiki on this. |
