Who invented Folk Clubs UK

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 06:12 AM

And a book is in the offing.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 07:06 AM

"Re your posting 13th August. Somebody must have taken 5 minutes or possibly more."
Assume you mean 17th August.
Can't wait.
I know Fred Woods and Mike Brocken had shots at writing a history of the revival.
Fred threw his hands up and fessed up that he'd made a hames of it - I found Brocken's efforts depressingly unsatisfactory.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 08:05 AM

The Second Revival, as we sometimes call it, was quite a phenomenom. I guess some people feel it destroyed any concensus of what a 'Folk Song' might be with a tsunami, or maybe just a big wave, of neo-pop songs, singer-songwriters, Americana and singing comedians.

But the folk clubs really did bring something or other of old songs and tunes to a much wider public then the collectors of the First Revival - although clearly that legacy was central to the Second Revival.

So what is the legacy of the Second Revival? Quite a bit I think - not least thousands and thousands of people who sang, played, danced, mummered and son on and thousands and thousands of songs and tunes etc.

Thanks you Folk Clubs

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 09:09 AM

Jim Yes,
My apologies, blame it on lack of sleep.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 09:43 AM

"The Second Revival, as we sometimes call it, was quite a phenomenom."
Absolutely
To say it changed many of our lives would be an understatement.
"I guess some people feel it destroyed any concensus of what a 'Folk Song' might be with a tsunami, or maybe just a big wave, of neo-pop songs, singer-songwriters, Americana and singing comedians."
Right again Les - it took away our choice of what we wanted to hear - if I wanted to listen to Elvis or Buddy Holly wannabes I could go to my local talent night (used to be a wonderful one half way along the Stretford Road) - nowadays I'm more likely to find the same and similar in anywhere that adverstises itself as a "folk club"
It really isn't a matter of "definition", "purism", "folk-policing"... or any of the other garbage substituted for argument - it's simply a matter of what you expect to find from what you read on the label.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 11:44 AM

It really isn't a matter of "definition", "purism", "folk-policing or any of the other garbage substituted for argument - it's simply a matter of what you expect to find from what you read on the label.

true enough - but theres more of us than you and we like sigue sigue sputnik and frank sinatra in our folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 12:28 PM

Ok BAW,

"but theres more of us than you"

How do you know?

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 01:33 PM

" but theres more of us than you and we like sigue sigue sputnik and frank sinatra in our folk clubs."
There might well be, but only because thousands of us pissed off leaving you with the thriving and healthy position you now find yourself in
And you still haven't told us what your particular brand of 'folk music' is - and does it include Elvis wannabes - just so as we can tell if there really are more of you than us..
Wish you'd make up your mind whether you want to be recognised as a bully or a clown - you don't appear to be good at either.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 01:54 PM

I first became involved in running folk clubs with my college folk club in 1963 - 50 years ago.

I married Tina in 1966 and within a few weeks we were running a weekly folk club; we still run a folk club 47 years later with virtually no breaks. Can anyone beat our record for longevity?

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 02:06 PM

Doubt it Vic - though Ted and Ivy must be close runners
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 02:50 PM

I think all live music is a generally good thing. If people want to sing anything whatsoever, then they should - and I wish them the best of luck.

But if it's called a folk night and most of the songs have be written in the last 20 or even 50 years I will feel I have been misiled.

Yes I know people have written fantastic songs in the last 20 or 50 years and some of them have passed into the current oral tradition ie the folkies like em and sing em but I don't want to hear people sing pop songs - with odd exceptions.

We are not narrow minded or musical biggots we just know what we like and we can read. So when the flyer or weby says folk we have a reasonable expectation that ....................

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 03:48 PM

perhaps it was a lot of different people, much like the process of traditional songs changing shape.

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 07:59 PM

not a clown or a bully. just proposing that the nature of folk music is decided by folk.

and if Elvis speaks to them more than Ewan....well that's the role model they will base their own self expression on.

to my certain knowledge the eccentricities of the traddy crowd have closed more folk clubs than the occasional care in the community elvis wannabe.

but really that's an irrelevance. society changes, and the folk club survives only if it does change. charismatic leaders emerge every few years and redefine the folk club to answer a society's need.

what were the needs of the 1950's folk club customers - to escape from the stifling values of the time, a little taste of the bohemian lifestyle, to protest about the bomb. attempts to turn the folk clubs into a museum for putrefying traditions were at best ill considered.

Today I sang in a Weymouth church, a song I wrote last week. celebrating the life of folksinger Al Kendrick. The place was packed. I've had people coming up to me all day thanking me for my contribution but I wrote directly for the people who knew Al -not in some ossified tradition.

folkmusic - like tears are for the living.

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 04:09 AM

Yes it is Al - but not a minute number of clubs who have decided that they have no interest whatever in folk as it has been always understood, has a definition and i fully documented and archived as a specific type of music.
The vast majority of 'The Folk' have no interest in folk music in any shape, form or definition - we have totally failed to involve them in any way.
If any club is going to decide to change that definition they have to say what it has been changed to, they have to give the reasons why it has changed and they have to gain some sort of a consensus - if that doesn't happen the term becomes meaningless and we cease to anybody ese
This is what has happened in the 'anything goes' clubs.
Pop music, jazz, classics - whatever, is not folk music in any shape or form - not better or worse, just different.
I gave up "words mean what I want them to mean" when I stopped reading Alice in Wonderland.
If you are drawing audiences into folk clubs and not giving them folk music you are conning them and you are nausing it up for those of us who have some idea of what it is.
By the way - you are not in the majority, as you claim - you have no consensus, no definition, no history, no documented evidence, no archived examples and no credibility - we have
You are dispirit groups who can't even reach a consensus among yourselves other than "words mean what I want them to mean" - and you've managed to do an enormous amount of damage to an extremely important music.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 04:55 AM

like the usage of the word bodhran, it received wide currency in the 50's but the concept was known before then. Though the actual description of the word may have eluded folklorists in the Victorian era.
Hootenannies date from the 40's, ceilidh (in its literal translation) is much older than that. And I don't doubt the C# would have met in a suitable establishment, alcoholical or not, before they built C# house. And songs would have been sung for the enjoyment as well as for the erudition. And like SAR these days, discussion would be part of that.

What strikes me quite often is that people's idea of what is very old has a cutoff date around the youth of their parents or grandparents (depeding on their exposure to memories from those antecedents). Earlier than that is considered very very old (especially if it is Folk) ie maybe 100+ years. Speaking from personal experience - revelations about a song's (ie) provenance can be surprising after having "assumed".

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 05:09 AM

Well, whatever folk music is it is currently in quite good shape. The level of musicianship and quality of performance above the semi pro and pro individuals and bands is very high. The number and quality of festivals is excellent.

I don't really know, but suspect that the number of dance bands and dancing events is higher than for a longtime. Border Morris is all over the place and guess other schools of 'dancin' are also on the up.

Collections of dance tunes from 18/19C sources are getting published and the RVWM Library is putting all that stuff on line hence The Full English and a whole lot more.Current performers are still going back to 19/20C collections and 20C source singers as well as the legacy of the Second Revival.

The old songs tunes and dances are just good to listen and to be involved in. Most of this is Third Revival (?) no maybe not, but most of this activity comes from people who know, love and enjoy old songs and tunes. They work well in small acoustic spaces, small and large halls and even big festivals.

If people want to have nights dominated by Elvis, Buddy and todays charts - great get on with it.

Best wishes

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 05:17 AM

"If people want to have nights dominated by Elvis, Buddy and todays charts - great get on with it."
Could't agree more - but don't call it what it aint
And try telling the copyright holders that it''s in the public domain (which folk music is by law) and see how far it gets you.
Terms like "folk music" don't "change", (certainly not at the whims of groups of individuals who can't bother there arses to keep the rest of us up to speed as to what they've changed into) - these meanings EVOLVE with common usage and added information - neither applies to Elvis or Buddy wannabes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 05:23 AM

Open mike seems to do the job quite well for events when people sing pretty well anything. Xlnt - They also use mikes which most folk clubs don't

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 05:36 AM

Apologies to all who are allergic to discussion on definitons - they're fairly inevitable on a forum such as this, I would have thought - and I didn't start it.
"so perhaps what he invented wasn't what we call folk clubs."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 09:15 AM

There are several threads missing here: firstly, like it or not, the National Song Book laid a foundation in Schools which the early clubs drew on. Secondly, both Wales and Northumberland had local community performance traditions which never broke: in Northumberland, the practice of visiting around the farms in the evening, as it was a major exercise to get into town for the cinema. In Wales, the Hwyl Nos and Gymanfa Canu traditions, often based around the Rugby Clubs, which went far beyond the hymns and arias. Maddy Prior's first steps, for example, were taken in a Methodist Church youth group in Kilburn. I was taught maypole dancing in school in the 1960s by one of the "heritage" dancers passing on the family tradition.
Therefore, yes, if you want to focus tightly on the Clubs themselves, you have to go back the jazz/skiffle. But they drew on older roots sown by RVW and CS and their circle in the 1920s, performed in the Church Fayre processions and the like.

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 09:17 AM

Oh, I forgot to add another section to the list of unbroken traditions: the Sheffield Carols around the pubs at this time of year.

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 11:49 AM

Thanks Guest, good points and for many of us the oral tradition of brownies, guides, cubs and scouts.

Does anybody have a reasonable estimate of the number of folk clubs active in about 1972?

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 04:39 PM

everything is in flux in our society. everything changes very fast. language reflects that.

institutions change too. I think I would agree that traditional music has an importance i'm just not really sure what the nature of that importance is. to scholars and historians certainly. to musicians and composers looking for inspiration an tecdhniques. the archives are there - how can they be damaged?

if the idea was originally to preserve and present traditional singers only. you have to face facts, Jim.

your idea has been hijacked by a group of people hungry for self expression and charismatic performers who have forged a means of expression more accessible than poetry or the drama of Samuel Beckett. I don't think you should disparage this or rail against it. you have been part of a great artistic movement, be proud!

history writes itself. we cannot choose our role in the cast.

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 07:36 PM

1972, probably more than there are now.

What is its place now? Partially, keeping good songs alive. In this, there can be a case for the performance of songs which returned from overseas, which is why Cecil Sharp went to Appalachia. Also, because it's the music of the people, not something forced on them by some industrial combine. A tension has existed between the people and their bosses since forever, which became particularly pointed after the collapse of feudalism c1500. Why is nobody targeting the modern bosses, energy companies, banks, tax abusers, the NHS? Has feudalism returned?

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,roderick warner
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 08:13 PM

'Why is nobody targeting the modern bosses, energy companies, banks, tax abusers, the NHS? Has feudalism returned?'

If/when people do target them musically - they will hardly do so within forms that are irrelevant in this century, surely? If they want an audience... which they will surely not acquire within dying formats like 'folk clubs?' A load old old people singing to old people in forms they think are 'folky' aren't going to hack it. Surely? Things move on... too fast for some, perhaps... Kumbayah, y'all...

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 13 - 03:45 AM

"everything is in flux in our society. everything changes very fast. language reflects that.
"
What happens at your 'folk' club does not represent "society" only what happens in your club - you have no impact whatever in the outside world ad how the rest of us choose to communicate with one another.
If you want to communicate outside your particular bubble you use the language we all do
If I needed to find out what folk song was (assuming I hadn't spent half a century actively working at it, organising folk clubs, singing folk songs, lecturing and writing about it - and most of al, spending three decades collecting it from people who are part of a long chain that reaches back centuries in passing on the songs) - I would simply reach for one of the hundreds of books labelled "folk songs".
If all this no longer applies or if it has changed in any way - tell me what it has become - you and your buddies are awfully shy in passing on your secret - it seems to range from "what I choose to call it", through "what happens at our club" to "it doesn't have any definition".
C'mon Al - give us a clue - show us yours!!!
By the way - one clown suggested that we have to abandon the term "traditional" as the Buddy Holly/Elvis wannabes are "traditional now because they change a few words.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,Terry Masterson
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 12:04 PM

To MtheGM :"Are you the young man who sang Irish songs who turned up on my recommendation at one of the Cecil Sharp House monthly sessions.....and sang "Are you there Moriarity?"?"

Well, Michael, I have no recollection of that particular Cecil Sharp House session, but it sounds likely as I know noone else who sings "Moriarity". It was a long time ago but if I met you at Eel Pie Island I'm sure it's true. You'll have to remind of your name, although the old grey cells are not what they used to be.
Sandy Paton was very encouraging to me - recommended I listen to Margaret Barry, etc. I saw her at the Bedford in Camden Town and eventually booked her at my club in Lewes, Sussex. My last contact with Sandy was in the States round about 1969/70.

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 12:28 PM

Anybody up for a stab at how many clubs existed in the mid 1970s?

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 10:55 PM

four hundred and ninety six - but were they all real folk clubs, featuring nothing but real folk music. or were they pesky buddy holly wannabes. define your terms if you want me and jim to take you seriously.

Me an Jim have decided to reclassify everybody - if you're not a real folk, your licence to run a folk club will be revoked. anyone who seems to be influenced by fly by night operators like Elvis Presley and Buddy Holly will face excommunication.

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 04:13 AM

"Me an Jim have decided to reclassify everybody"
When will you get it into your head that what you have done is to de-classify the term so that we no longer know what we are going to be given when we turn up at a 'folk' club - that's why so many of us went somewhere else for what we wanted.
Where's your description - or is it just "what we choose to give you"?
If we can't get to (or can't be bothered to) turn up at your particular club, where is it we can find out exactly what you do?
Is it documented at all.
We've got the literature - we've got the history - you want to hear what we do - listen to 'Voice of the People' or 'Folk Songs of Britain' - or the output of Veteran, or 'Greentrax' or 'The School of Scottish Studies' or the 'Musical Traditions' output.
You want to read about it try 'The Greig Duncan Collection' or 'The Penguin Book of Folk Songs' or just work your way down The Roud Index or the 'Kist o' Riches' or The Irish Traditional Music Archive' website - all available at the flick of a finger.
Where's yours?
Us and ours have been around since at least 1899 in solid, definable form - where have you been all my life - where are you now - where is your consensus, or has 'folk' come to mean "Magical Mystery Tour"?
You may have re-classified what you mean but don't involve anybody else until you can tell us what the new classification is.
C'mon Al - give us a clue - and stop sniping.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:09 AM

Taffy Thomas. He also invented beards, dominoes, stories and jokes. And escapology. It's as likely as the inane ramblings of Al Whittle - wonder what part of him is 'Big' ?

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:52 AM

tummy -guest.

Inane, I may be but my observations don't ramble. They tend to be very much to the point.

My point is the same as always. Jim and a few anal types may have codifies what they regard as folk music. However the actual folk of England (including the early Ewan Macoll) express themselves very differently due to the fact they no longer live in isolation. THey are influenced by all sorts of music. They have moved on and voted with their feet. And I don't think anyone has the right to resent this.

(I am thinking of the jazz clarinet of Bruce Turner on Dirty Old Town. Don't think Ewan was writing about New Orleans.)

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:08 AM

Look Al, I can see you just like having a laugh - nothing wrong with that obviously but if somebody calls an event folk or a folk club I wont be happy if when I get there people are playing jazz.

This is not a judgement about anything other than calling a dog a dog.

That's it really. Loads of us know more or less what we define as folk its a minorty interest, but we like it. We don't want to be misslead by people singing - for instance pop songs all night - as good as they may or may not be and an interesting interpretation is sometimes welcome.

I am genuinely surprised that you haven't quoted that deeply meaningful "All music is folk I never heard a horse sing" - but you can if you like.

Best wishes

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:23 AM

Still no references of what we'll find at your club - read a lesson into that Al
Irish traditional music is flourishing, particularly among young people - the reason - it never abandoned its base; people who came to the music had masses of examples to draw from - all recognisable as traditional.
It will survidve for at least another two generations because of this fact.
People coming into the music for the first time can do what they want with it - and they do, but they have a model to hold up and say - "this is what we are and this is what we do".
The last time I was in an English folk club I was nearly blinded by the glare of bald heads and grey hair - same old tiny number of faces as those that were there last time I visited it twenty years ago.
You don't even have a reference point, no definition, no literature, no archived examples - just evasive waffle.
You have failed totally to involve the world outside your little bubble, and it's them who ring the changes and evolve the language to redefine definitions, not the little band who turn up at the Boggart Hole Clough 'Folk' club, or whoever and wherever you are.
Stay with your Alice in Wonderland of "words mean what I want them to mean - and I'm not telling you what that is" if you want, but don't accuse me of re-classifying anything.
By the way - Ewan MacColl didn't "write" folk songs and he always made a point of emphasising that fact - he sang fold songs, and introduced many of us to them, but his own creations were just that - his compositions, largely, but not exclusively based on folk styes.
One thing you were guaranteed of when you came away from one of his performances was an earful of folk songs - not a Buddy Holly wannabe in sight t.b.t.g. - I could get that at my local pub session most weeks.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:34 AM

Ewan once said he didn't consider himself a ' songwriter ' he just made some stuff up.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:42 AM

Would it be OK to sing a Ewan Macoll song in a folk club? We've got Jon Heslop and John Connolly booked next year. Is that alright?

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:47 AM

Al, no one disagrees with the fact that the 'folk' have voted with their feet. For decades, mass culture has been more interested in commercial popular music than in traditional music. That may or may not be regrettable, depending on your point of view.

However it is irrelevant to what goes on in folk clubs. These were never intended to reflect current popular or 'folk' culture - they are governed by an aesthetic approach rather than a sociological or ethnomusicological one. The folk clubs were (and are) places to enjoy a specific musical genre, which has at its core a particular style of treating traditional material.

For reasons partly to do with the origins of the folk revival and partly to do with an ethos of encouraging ordinary people to perform, folk clubs have always been more or less accepting of quite a wide range of other types of music which have only a tenuous relationship either to the core tradition or the revival style of playing. That is both their strength and their weakness. It has meant however that folk clubs have been seen as a suitable outlet for a wide range of performers who don't fit easily into other genres and might otherwise find it difficult to find other venues in which to perform.

They have also come to regard their music as 'folk' and may come to believe that they have an automatic right to be accepted in folk clubs, and may even feel aggrieved when their talents are not as widely appreciated as they feel they deserve. The reality is simply that their music is on the fringe of what the folk clubs are based upon, and will only find a limited audience within this genre.

I don't think most other genres would be as tolerant. Try going into a jazz club or classical music group with your guitar or melodeon - I think you'll soon be asked more or less politely to try elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 08:21 AM

"Would it be OK to sing a Ewan Macoll song in a folk club?"
Don't be facetious Brian - I've have never attempted to restrict what goes on in a folk club, I just object to turning up at one and not hearing a folk song.
I'm still chasing this myth about folk song being re or de-defined and trying to find out what that re-definition is, if it really exists - next stop Loch Ness!
I really didn't start this, but Al's insecurity seems not to allow him to make a comment on folk clubs without taking a pop at those of us who are delusional enough to believe that we know what folk song is - silly us!!
Wot Howard just said with knobs on.
Happy Christmas to all, just in case I die of boredom or anticipation before the event in a 'folk club' (as distinct from a folk club)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,johncharles
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 08:47 AM

folk club party tonight expect we will sing some carrolls *<:)

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:55 AM

I also recollect the late Ian Campbell telling me the greatest influence on his Dad's generation of singers was Al Jolson - so what I'm proposing is not a new idea. And it has occurred to others far more distinguished in their achievements than I.

If you find the ideas inane -maybe you just are unable to comprehend, or unwilling.

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 11:00 AM

"the greatest influence on his Dad's generation of singers was Al Jolson"
So what Al - are you suggesting Al Jolson was a folk singer - a Bridge too far even for you.
Go to South Wales and you'll find hundreds of miners choirs singing opera - Verdi a folk composer - come onnnnn.
I eat food - I'd crawl over broken glass to sample a South Indian vegetarian curry at this moment - all down to my choice in what I want to eat/listen to at any given moment - a right you are happy to deprive me of it would seem.
Stop talking gibberish and tell us how you define what happens in your club - what can I expect, Buddy Holly, Elvis, Singalonga-Max, give us a clue.
The majority of people's particular tastes in music are a thousand miles away from folk music, and thanks to the efforts of people like your good self, are likely to remain that way for the forseeable future - Attila the Hun could have taken lessons from you people in how to tear down something that some people took centuries to pass on to us.
By the way, of all the people to choose, Ian Campbell was both knowledgeable and articulate in explaining what he meant by folk music - he didn't faff around in hiding his opinions.
If I was ever at a loose end in Birmingham The Jug of Punch was fairly high on my 'go to' list.
Unable - unwilling to comprehend.... until you explain what you mean by folk - either will do.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 11:19 AM

He can't Jim

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 12:33 PM

Tony McCarthy emigrated to Australia to work, I believe, in broadcasting/TV.

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 02:12 PM

"You'll have to remind of your name, although the old grey cells are not what they used to be."

.,,.
Hi, Terry. Thanks for response. I think you may be the same man that I remember. It was a good while ago -- 55 years by my reckoning!

My name is Michael Grosvenor Myer [in those days it was just Michael Myer].

~M~

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 02:28 PM

... Terry: my recollection is that Sandy called up a young man called Terry to sing at Eel Pie Island. He sang a couple of Irish songs. I said 'hi' to him at the end, & mentioned Peter Kennedy's monthly folk afternoons at Cecil Sharp House, the next one of which the following Sunday I was due to chair. The young man called Terry came in a bit after the start, & I said "One of the best young Irish singers I have herd for good while has just come in. His name is Terry & I met him recently at Eel Pie Island. How about a song. Terry?", and he sang "Moriar-i-ty". At the end, I remember, a young woman called Jennie Leathers, who had earlier sung the McPeakes' Jug Of Punch, went over to chat him up.

I think that Terry might well have been you. Any bells rung?

~M~

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 04:14 PM

Not being facetious Jym, just trying to make a valid point. I'm glad you've never attempted to restrict what goes on in a folk club. You might well have been politely requested to go forth and multiply if you'd tried. You have, however, expressed some strong opinions about what should or should not go on in a folk club. Correct me if I am wrong but I think you have said that a certain amount of written material informed by the tradition was acceptable. You gave me a list of examples. It might include, for instance, the works of Ewan Macoll.

The trouble with that is that you have then abandoned all rules and the choice is purely subjective. If someone wants to sing Elvis, your own rules allow them to do so.

A couple of points -

I haven't taken the slightest bit of notice of anything Big Al says for quite some time. I recommend it. I think you will find it liberating.

In forty years I cannot recall ever having heard anyone sing an Elvis song or a Buddy Holly song in a folk club.

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:07 PM

GUEST,johncharles

folk club party tonight expect we will sing some carrolls *<:)

Here's a little something we're doing in Sussex this Christmas - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgInUHrWIf4

Note the reactions of Will Duke and Bob Lewis when Stuart Walker conducts a little too enthusiastically.

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,johncharles
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:48 PM

I must get down to Sussex one of these days.
john

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 07:23 PM

'In forty years I cannot recall ever having heard anyone sing an Elvis song or a Buddy Holly song in a folk club. '

wel all I can say in forty years you can have been to bloody few folk clubs. in face of your complete ignorance, let me explain what jim is endlessly bitching about.

some kids have been influenced by Eva Cassidy who played acoustic guitar and sang some Buddy Holly songs in her repertoire. Some older people were influenced by Don Mac, pete seegerlean - a man who was influenced by Josh White Elvis Presley and Buddy Holly. Most contemporary English folksingers were influenced by John Cash who - whatever the hardships of the character in the song /story he was performing, delivered it in epic style - rather than the snivelling miserable quavering voice so loved by traddies.

jim feels the traddies are right and the rest of humanity are infra dig.
something tells me you agree with his opinion. don't worry - seek liberation inside your shell, mon petite escargot.

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 08:10 PM

should read


'In forty years I cannot recall ever having heard anyone sing an Elvis song or a Buddy Holly song in a folk club. '

wel all I can say in forty years you can have been to bloody few folk clubs. in face of your complete ignorance, let me explain what jim is endlessly bitching about.

some kids have been influenced by Eva Cassidy who played acoustic guitar and sang some Buddy Holly songs in her repertoire. Some older people were influenced by Don Maclean - a man who was influenced by Josh White Elvis Presley, pete seeger and Buddy Holly. Most contemporary English folksingers were influenced by John Cash who - whatever the hardships of the character in the song /story he was performing, delivered it in epic style - rather than the snivelling miserable quavering voice so loved by traddies.

jim feels the traddies are right and the rest of humanity are infra dig.
something tells me you agree with his opinion. don't worry - seek liberation inside your shell, mon petite escargot.