BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 01:46 PM

"Do you know why I use terms such as worm and Akenhateon? I just cannot come to terms with the idea that such people still exist in the 21st century in Western society!"

Ian dear fellow, you really do need to get out more....there is a whole world out there, a multitude of people who do not share your processed views on pretend equality, or entitlement without responsibility.

Try to calm down and use that sticky morass inside your skull, you may actually get to like it ...it will teach you about differences of opinion, how beneficial they are to the construction of society, how they make the world a more interesting place, and how they help you come to terms with the inner IAN.

Have a very happy and calming Christmas...AKE.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 01:53 PM

Dave the Gnome, I don't think government has to attach criminal penalties to the requirement for universal HIV/AIDS testing. Government accomplishes many things without having to resort to the imposition of criminal sanctions. Design a good, attractive program and you can have good compliance without criminal penalties.

Musket, you present an unfair and unrealistic view of the majority of people who oppose homosexuality. Only a small lunatic fringe is likely to do harm to homosexuals, people like the Westboro Baptist Church (40 members) that you refer to so often. Musket, you paint Akenaton with the same brush, and that's just not fair. The taboos against homosexuals have been part of our culture for a long, long time - it's going to take patience and good example and hard work and understanding to erase those taboos. Oh - and honesty will also help a lot. Akenaton may have thinking you disagree with, but he hasn't said any of the hateful things you accuse him of.

I'm sure that many people you know and love have held onto the anti-homosexual taboos at some time in their lives - most likely, some still hold to those taboos now. You're not going to win them over by beating them on the head, like you constantly do to Akenaton.

Merry Christmas.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 02:29 PM

Stu...I think you are simply wrong here, I do not accept that animals, with the exception of humans, knowingly have same gender sex.
In the "lower" animal world sex is triggered by instinct and chemical signals between male and female animals.
Two males simply do not have the capacity to make these chemical signals.

I have seen male animals go through the MOTIONS of sexual behaviour, but only under conditions of extreme stress; not in a natural environment.

Homosexuality IS perverse as we, male and female, were given the organs of reproduction, solely to reproduce....the pleasure we gain from sexual intercourse is an added incentive for reproduction.
So sexual intercourse with someone of the same gender is in essence a perversion of the true purpose.
That is not to say that all perversions are harmful, but this particular one seems to be gravely dangerous to those who practice it, especially if they are male.
In my opinion this is because two people of the same gender were not designed or have not evolved to have sex together, nature always has ways of kicking back at those who dare to break the natural laws

It is called "the survival of the species"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 08:22 PM

I'm abandoning the thread for Christmas and I hope everyone has a good one, without exception.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 05:35 AM

Today is Christmas day ...could we not have at least one day away from the bigotry, pettiness, small mindedness,intolerance and pseudo academic strutting from some of our regulars.

I for one wish you all a very Merry Christmas, whatever your colour, creed and sexual orientation.


Peace Love and Joy to you all

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 06:48 AM

Homosexuality IS perverse as we, male and female, were given the organs of reproduction, solely to reproduce....the pleasure we gain from sexual intercourse is an added incentive for reproduction.
So sexual intercourse with someone of the same gender is in essence a perversion of the true purpose.

This is as tragic a example of misinformed hogwash as I've experienced for some time; the sort of fascistic idiocy that underwrites small-minded hatred in which ignorance masquerades as 'informed'.

Reproduction is, at best, a random by-product of the universal procedure known as sexual intercourse. In itself reproduction is statistically insignificant given the amount of instances of sexual intercourse as against the instances of actual conception. Moreover, who has sexual intercourse to reproduce? Indeed, the mechanism of sexual intercourse is designed solely - utterly and totally - to give transcendent pleasure to the participants. It is not an 'added incentive' - it is the be-all and end-all of why we fuck.

There is nothing more 'natural' about heterosexual sex than homosexual - both are about deep instinctive sensual pleasuring to the point of orgasmic delirium (and beyond) and both work flawlessly to that end. Everything humanity turns its hand to is about using nature in such a way to enrich our lives. You hardly find steam engines, TV sets or laptop computers growing on trees, and yet these things 'work' according to the same natural universal laws that govern our bodies, with which we can do what we damn well wish in the pursuit of Peace, Love, Joy and Goodwill Toward All.

The possibilities are endless, so it's always a shame when some small-minded ill-informed fecking idiot comes along spreading their message of hate based on a complete misunderstanding of what is natural, or not natural, based entirely on their own fucked up miserable world-view which is the only true perversion here.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 09:17 AM

And a Merry Christmas to you too Jack, no matter which planet or substance you're on....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 10:34 AM

Fuck off you homophobic tosser.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 12:42 PM

Sometimes I thank God I'm not a "liberal"   :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 01:49 PM

Sometimes I thank Clapton you feel superior to "liberals."

Joe. Your reading of the comments Akenhateon makes are sadly naive. Ask the (it's Xmas) person. He will happily admit he says what he just said after your support for him actually. He puts the word marriage in parentheses when it refers to people of the same gender. He calls them perverts and says that equality for them is a liberal plot. He assumes they are rife with sexually transmitted diseases yet is ignorant of the real picture. He speaks of testing for HIV when the success story around services is to be admired over here. He speaks of compulsory registers of gay people.

May I suggest reading of the tacit respectability your church gave to European fascist dictatorships 70 years ago? Don't you think there's something similar going on? The worm is ignorant and uneducated so it would be like blaming a puppy for shitting on the carpet but the hate websites he gets his ideas from are full of nasty people who are also intelligent enough to use hate as a tool to divide society for their political ends. Just read what he puts. He throws in sentences he doesn't understand when challenged about them and he, not those of us disgusted by him, says it all.

All you have to do is read. It's so simple.

Perhaps as you keep bringing religion into it, despite the worm claiming not to be religious, you might describe how churches have a duty to social cohesion if they wish to influence outside of their congregation? Saying there is a history of bigotry therefore we have to accommodate bigotry is hopefully not what you are trying to say. But it is how it comes over.

Oh. Merry Xmas by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 02:27 PM

Ian, it's interesting to see you have "rounded up" your friends in the bell ringing fraternity to come to your assistance, as you have been steadily losing ground on the issue under debate.
Your stance is as morally bankrupt as the procedures you claim to have advised the health agencies to instigate. There has shamefully been absolutely no improvement in male homosexual sexually transmitted disease rates in the last ten years.....something I have been warning about for at least six of those ten years.

It may interest your accomplice to know that I was a close friend of the late Mr N Chaddock and assisted him in the restoration of the Inverary bell tower, which contains one of the finest ring of bells in the country.

So I obviously know more about bells and bell ringing, than our erudite guest knows about human biology, or psychology. :0)

He does though, seem to have assimilated some your finely developed appreciation of coarse personal abuse.....please pass on my condolences.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 02:53 AM

What the f..?

What in the name of all that is Yardbirds has bell ringing to do with it? Unless the worm has it as a euphemism? I've never rung a bell in my life. Come to think of it, I must have missed something if another Mudcat member has spoken of it? Mrs Musket made her annual trip to the tower the worm mentions this last summer but there again, it is her hobby. As she used to live in Edinburgh, the few Scottish towers there are get some hammer as it were when we are up there. I'll be in the pub nearby.

Who is talking about that hobby worm? Especially in this context?

I like Blandiver's turn of phrase. It sums up the disgust many feel.

Any other hobbies you know a bit about worm? Book binding? Stamp collecting? Putting a white hood on? Like bell ringing, I can't discuss the ins and outs with you, but I'm sure there are those that can. If you wish to take up bell ringing though, beware. You might come across some gay people and that would never do. Come to think about it, at least three other bell ringers would have to look in your direction all the time, and that would never do either.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 09:06 AM

So, "Jack" is not an acquaintance then?

I am not as "ignorant" as you appear to believe. :0)

I am pleased that you don't accompany Mrs Mather to the bell tower, Norman and Elsie would be disgusted to think of your soiled hands on their beloved bells.

Maybe you could tell your good lady, that as a child, I was always taken outside to hear the Inverary bells ring in the New Year.
The peal could be heard all down Loch Fyne on a still night.
Unforgettable.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 10:54 AM

Err.... There is no Mrs Mather. No Mrs Musket obviously but in the same way Akenhateon doesn't want respectable people to think old Alex is a bigoted twat, I unfortunately have a reasonably well known (in that I am held to account by politicians and media) profile, so when Akenhateon insists on using my name, he is using the name I have always used in music, keeping my professional / family apart from my hobby, singing and playing. If I could find humour in any of his posts, I would laugh at his attempts to "out" people he thinks are dangerous to his warped sense of reality.

But I can't. I have a weird sense of humour but not a sick one.

You see, I stand by whatever I say as Ian, Musket or Phil. It's all the same, but with perhaps different levels of diplomacy and empathy. In any event, my disdain of those who judge lifestyle and wish to inflict their wishes accordingly get the same treatment anyway. I would wipe my feet on the way out, regardless of whether I drink or leave my beer. I reckon I would leave it. It might taste sour.

Such people who would "do something about" sections of society have unfortunate consequences. Because of them, people might feel it not a good idea to mention aspects of what makes them what they are. I am amazed for instance how many gay people there are in the UK folk circuit whilst at the same time how many people think the folk circuit doesn't have many gay people in it. Ditto the numbers who love collecting old songs as a jigsaw to the past yet at the same time there are those who think it is no more and no less than an expression of left wing political nonsense.

We hear every life story in the pub. One of the saddest I heard when staying in London was a lad who was seeing another man. He hadn't worked out whether he was gay or not but felt very attracted to his new boyfriend. He had had female lovers as well but couldn't work out whether he was keeping his father, 500 miles away, happy. To compound matters, his new boyfriend was black and the large Afro Caribbean community down there made their feelings known regarding inter race, let alone gender! (Isn't bigotry so fucking awful?). Young Bruce felt so frustrated because he respected his family, saw his father as a dinosaur but a dinosaur he wanted to please. He was silly enough to say all this whilst slightly drunk to quite a few of us, hence I, a drinking acquaintance, heard it all.

Bigotry has cause and consequence beyond the experience of the bigot. One of the worst aspects of the affliction.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 12:16 PM

Ian, when I first encounter you on these pages, you were using the handle "Ian Mather", if you do not wish to be known as Ian, why broadcast it?
You continuously refer to me in many derogatory terms.
Ian is not a term of abuse.
Many folks here know my name is Alex, I do not object to you using my Christian name in discussion here, but I suppose it would look rather incongruous, if you were determined to keep up your childish campaign of personal abuse?
I was discussing you attitude recently with another member and we came to the rather ironic conclusion that you really think that YOU are God...that no one else on earth deserves to hold any opinion with which you....."Messiah I" disagree.
You live in a bubble Ian, the bubble of your "unconditional equality" agenda.

The reason I know this, is because I used to BE "Ian Mather". In my younger days, I saw evil in everything which did not fit with my indoctrinated world view, religion, conservatism, true liberalism, even although I knew it could never be achieved under the present socio-economic system.....I hated everyone and everything which contradicted my agenda
Fortunately, many years ago, I learned to be my own man, to think for myself to see the good things in other ideologies....and more importantly, to see the bad in my own, how I tried to hide the truth even from myself, just because it was inconvenient to my political agenda.
Today I realise that many conservative social policies are good for people and some "liberal" policies are extremely destructive to society and to the sections of society towards which they are directed.

I look on it all as a process of Growing Up psychologically, and I hope sincerely that you can start to think upon these matters a bit more deeply in the future.......A Guid New Year to you when it comes...Alex.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 12:39 PM

I suppose having a name for a star studded rock God career sniffing marching powder and being less than respectable to groupies didn't quite happen. Although the ex bass player of a well known indie band in the '90s who is himself a director of an NHS trust gets his past parodied by the local press when there is a health scare story in the offering.

Although I use a name for other than professional and private in music, hence bringing it to Mudcat, most people know both. Hence the move to Musket when a view here on Mudcat was explored (positively as it happens) at work.

That aside, allow me to address you directly. A while ago, a kind soul pm'd me lots of quotes from your past posts. (They must really have it on for you, it was a very long post...). As well as your more odious rants, mainly against gay people, it included a few gems showing a side of you that doesn't equate.

How can you post saying you see no difference in skin colour / race and that we are all fellow people yet say the exact opposite regarding gay people?

THAT is the bigotry I and others refer to. Pointing to the media fascination with the pink agenda and using that to describe all gay people. For someone normally disdainful of newspapers and government, you are quick to repeat their mantra when it resonates with your preconceptions.

You say you have lost your anger. Fine. Use the same logic to lose your fear and mistrust of fellow members of society.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link.
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 01:40 PM

I should just note that with ref to Akes post that the Christian view is that sex is for married love and not just for having offspring.       With ref to stus post...when I say that something is against nature, I was not inferring that it never happens in nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 02:18 PM

Saying that sexual intercourse is about procreation is like saying we travel in cars to die in road accidents.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 03:42 PM

Humanity has perverted sex in many ways, the sexualisation of children, or the use of sex as a marketing tool and now as a political weapon.

I said that the original purpose of sexual organs on any living creature was for procreation.

That is undeniable.....only a fool would suggest that procreation was designed by nature/god as only a by-product of sexual intercourse or that sexual intercourse was only designed to "give pleasure"

Same gender sex is without doubt a perversion of the true purpose.

"How can you post saying you see no difference in skin colour / race and that we are all fellow people yet say the exact opposite regarding gay people?

There are many types of behaviour which I believe to be destructive to society, the colour of ones skin or their racial origin do not come into that category.
Although I believe many of these behaviours are dangerous to those who practice them and to wider society, I understand that many people will not or cannot alter their behaviour...smokers for example, but I do not believe these behaviours should be promoted through legislation as safe and healthy, when the official health figures say that they patently are not.

They are being promoted because they fit into a "liberal" agenda of false "equality", which is hindering the work of those who sincerely wish to defeat the epidemic currently affecting male homosexuals.

I have a number of enemies here Ian and obviously one of them has taken the time to trawl through thousands of posts and quote me out of context....I dislike ignorant personal abuse in place of reasoned argument, but I dislike cowardice even more, if someone objects to my arguments let him/her come forward and make their case, not do their dirty work through a third party.

I give you credit for having the guts to stand your ground, but to use such material, from such a source, weakens your stance.

Pete..I understand and respect your point, but I can hardly argue the Christian case, when I am merely a Lapstatheist?... :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 04:04 PM

BTW Ian, don't think for a moment that I have "lost my anger" I am just as angry as in my youth, the difference is that I have learnt to direct my "anger" myself, rather than be manipulated by any political agenda.

As to your "informant", at the moment I am directing my "anger" in their direction :0)

I have narrowed it down to two, one male, one female, both devious ignominious cowards. As the great Rabbie said, I shall "nurse my wrath tae keep it warm".....perhaps they have enough "smeddum" to come forward, but I wont hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 05:12 PM

An explanation

Our liberal values were first given to us by the thinkers of the Enlightenment. Right from the start these values contained elements which were later to threaten the whole project. In particular, they suggested the perfectibility of mankind, that through open-ended advance society would be improved and human goodness would flourish. As Christopher Lasch has written, the outcome was that the economic machine came to be driven by 'insatiable desires'. Pursuit of happiness became the highest goal of society. As the individual took ever greater priority, moral questions turned from how we ought to behave towards each other to promoting the greatest happiness of the greatest number. Moral obligations were in effect junked, opening the way for a libertarian revolution in which freedom became an end in itself and liberalism was directly threatened.

For liberalism was essentially a moral project based on recognising the difference between right and wrong. As John Stuart Mill himself warned, a free society would be threatened if its 'restraining discipline' was relaxed. This is because the paradox of liberalism is that although it is a philosophy of freedom, it depends on moral restraint as the basis of liberty. Licence, by contrast, is a threat to freedom since it observes no obligation to others. As Jonathan Sacks has put it: 'For liberalism, freedom is collective self-government and morality consists at least in part in those virtues which support it. For libertarianism, by contrast, freedom is the protection of individual choice'.

So in our libertarian society, where individual choice is all, 'liberal' and 'progressive' have come to mean something very different. Liberals took for granted that freedom depended upon self-discipline. Libertarians decided that all such restraint was repressive. The individual had to be free from all attachments to family, culture, nation, institutions and traditions that might fetter freedom of choice. Since every individual was equally entitled to such free choices, the distinctions that were the basis of morality became eroded. To be progressive was thus inevitably redefined as being free to do harm, with harm itself being reinvented as virtue. So to walk out on your children was, in the remarkable words of Michael Ignatieff, an act of the 'liberal imagination' as it upheld an individual's needs against 'the devouring claims of family life'.

People who criticise this attitude as not only selfish but socially destructive are told, however, that they are illiberal, prejudiced and reactionary. They are also intimidated into silence. In his devastating pamphlet Moral Evasion , David Selbourne bears witness to the vast vocabulary of Orwellian distortions used by the 'liberal' media (which unsurprisingly failed to register his shaming rebuke) in their attempt to impose conformity. Terms of abuse routinely hurled at ideological opponents include 'moral crusaders', 'moral muggers', 'moral panic', 'moralisers', 'authoritarian moralists', 'mullahs of the religious right', 'new puritans', 'priggish', 'hectoring,' 'baying', 'guilty of knee jerk intolerance' and even 'ushering in a New Reich'. Such intellectual thuggery is routinely deployed in the interests of the right to behave badly. How can these assailants possibly be liberals?

In our culture of rights, what we desire is elevated to an entitlement regardless of the consequences upon others. Anything goes, all ethical bets are off, and anyone who objects is a reactionary. Yet as John Gray has written, far from creating tolerance, group rights are likely to lead to more intolerance since issues become non-negotiable and permit only victory or surrender, leading to a kind of reverse apartheid. A prime example of this is the tactics of the gay rights lobby, which brands opponents of the reduction in the age of consent or the abolition of Clause 28 as homophobes and subjects them to hate campaigns of rare viciousness.

It is of course perfectly possible to be tolerant and compassionate towards gay people while opposing elements of a militant campaign which may do harm to children. Not to think so subscribes to the view that minorities which claim victim status can do no wrong and so anyone who opposes anything they say is to be branded a bigot. Indeed, it is not just perfectly decent, liberal heterosexuals who are so branded but even some gays themselves, whose own principled opposition to such measures may expose them to 'outing' campaigns whose vileness beggars belief but on which phoney liberals, forever trumpeting their concern for gay sensibilities, are strangely silent.

The trump card played by all group rightists is 'equality', the claim that all they ask is to be treated the same as everyone else. This, though, is another debasement of the language. Equality once meant the equal worth of persons expressed through fellowship, shared experience and mutual respect. Now it has come to mean instead identical material ends and outcomes. Yet people are not identical. Their behaviour and circumstances are very different from each other. To treat them as identical may therefore be unfair or harmful.

That's why, for example, the woman who doesn't want a man around but gets pregnant via a sperm-bank on the basis that she has the right to be a mother 'like any other woman' is reckless of the disadvantage to the child conceived through such a brutal utilitarian procedure. That's why, in education, the 'all must have prizes' doctrine that says there is no difference between academic and vocational qualifications is leaving young people both uneducated and unskilled. That's why divorce court judges who award children and assets with no regard to behaviour routinely cause the manifest injustice of rewarding wrongdoing and punishing blamelessness. How can any of this possibly be considered progressive?

This radical individualism worships autonomy and deems obligation to be oppressive. Yet without obligation there can be no such thing as society. Isn't this what liberals were supposed to find so objectionable about Thatcherism? Instead, progress has been reduced to a hedonistic selfishness which unites the so-called progressives of the left with the so-called conservatives of the right. Consumerism rules in personal relations as much as in economics. Our most advanced thinkers regularly genuflect before the altar of globalisation, loudly reasserting their powerlessness to make a fairer society in the face of market forces.

In such a world, it has become a positive merit to stand for nothing since this means that nothing can stand in the way of change and the march of global capital. The term progress has become vacuous, meaning merely change for change's sake. All tradition thus becomes a suitable case for disposal. Ironically, this is as backward-looking as it is ahistorical. If the nation state is to be junked as an anachronism, we may enter what the French thinker Alain Minc has called a new Middle Ages characterised by tribal conflicts and hostilities. As for the claim that the traditional family should now be consigned to a museum, no less a liberal than the divorce expert Lawrence Stone warned that the present anarchy in personal relationships would take us right back to the pre-modern period.

To reject the barbarisms which are flowing so strongly from this reductive view of progress is not to be illiberal or reactionary. On the contrary, to resist them is to be progressive because a forward-thinking world view is one that genuinely cares for individual human beings. It recognises that for their situation to improve we must connect with reality rather than construct a fantasy of utopia. Human nature is not perfectible. It is neither intrinsically good nor bad. Instead, human beings are capable of both good and bad deeds and have a fundamental need for attachments. If we don't want a savage war of all against all, we have to encourage good behaviour and socially useful attachments and discourage the bad and socially harmful. In other words moral distinctions are crucial. Progressives therefore have a duty to resist the 'happiness above all' philosophy which collapses those distinctions and takes heavy casualties.

The idea that all pre-existing traditions or values are by definition just so much unprogressive baggage is as philistine as it is risible. Values dismissed as conservative are actually universal: attachment, commitment to individuals and institutions, ties of duty, trust and fidelity, the distinction between constructive and destructive behaviour. Without these things freedom cannot flourish and society cannot exist. The paradox is that only by conserving such values can progress occur. Small, incremental steps are the most secure way of bringing about beneficial change. Radicalism or revolution are likely to implode and leave us worse off than before.

In other words, we have to rescue progress from the so-called progressives. We need a liberal, not a libertarian, social order with deeper values than contract and other criteria for progress than material advances. Moral restraint is the glue that provides social cohesion. Liberty is not achieved but threatened by the relativistic pursuit of autonomy and rights. The task for progressives is to defend liberal democracy. That means, paradoxically, using conservative weapons. The old enemy which brought liberalism into being remains. There is still the danger of fanaticism, authoritarianism, abuse of power, exploitation or abuse of the old and the young, corruption, rigged elections and harm to minorities. In our confused discourse, some people who embody these very threats have disguised themselves as liberals. Their deep intolerance and intimidatory techniques in pursuit of licence and power must be resisted in the interests of preserving a decent, fair and free society.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 05:30 PM

Of what?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 06:58 PM

But the material was your own words with references to the posts you put them in, if context was sought.

My anger at you is borne of your own words, and even disregarding anything in the past, your own words over the last few hours alone make my blood boil.

I read words that are lifted from far right hate websites, yet you wish to have such views respected? Your post above has lots of big words but no big thoughts contained in them.

On reflection, I see no reason to alter my earlier stance. Sad but there you go.

Even pete has seen that you didn't mean what he thought you meant. Once you have had your sustainable 2.3 children, what are you supposed to do? His bible reckons prostitutes are better than wanking, so pure procreation isn't even a Christian idea, although if Keith A Hole of Hertford is reading, it may well be a Christianism idea......




Oh, making a link between being gay and abusing children? Oh dear.... I know I shouldn't have waded through your last post. I ate late and need an indigestion tablet now.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 08:31 PM

Only a small lunatic fringe is likely to do harm to homosexuals

Quite possibly the most naive and unworldly thing I've read here for years.

I said that the original purpose of sexual organs on any living creature was for procreation.

So, no wanking then? Get a bloody life, fer chrissake!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 02:58 AM

Naw Co Messiah S. It isn't his take on life that stops him from taking Capt Pickard up to warp speed. It's his geographical background. The dour buggers up there are too tight to crack one out and waste it. It explains the kilt.



Alright for you Joe? Look at me having a laugh and a joke rather than swallowing hard to keep the bile down. You try and throw an olive branch and his posts above are his reply.

How the hell do you expect me to remain civil?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 05:08 AM

Eyup Co Messiah S!

Hope the weather down in Yokelville isn't too bad. Looks grim on the news. Cold wet and windy here. The weather isn't much better either.

It would be nice if they invented a greyhound that could stay on his beanbag in the kitchen when the wind is whistling down the range flue. Ruddy furry wimp. He is cowering on the rug on the study, which is quiet and in the lee of the rather impressive wind. I lost a few ridge tiles the other week and this seems worse so keeping fingers crossed and car out of the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 05:23 AM

only a fool would suggest that procreation was designed by nature/god

You got that right, Ake.

There is no design, just ever evolving process that comes out of beauteous Godless nothing. When we fuck we commune with utter senselessness, possessed by a primal lustful passion that comes welling up from our darkest most base animal biological subroutines in which nature cons us into procreation by giving us an orgasmic addiction to the glories of the flesh which might eclipse all other considerations in the raging instant.

Gay, straight, whatever - it's all as NATURAL as anything else; men end up with a G-spot up their arseholes - which you no doubt see as intelligent design, especially as it chimes in with the delightful passages of anal sex in The Song of Solomon. Mostly we're dealing with basic sensual joys & carnal pleasures that existed MILLIONS OF YEARS before ever we figured the causal link between sexual intercourse and pregnancy. And what was our first response to that? CONTRACEPTION!

The reality is, human beings fuck one another in all sorts of delightful ways for pure holy joy of the thing - there is no right or wrong to any of it just as long as its consensual, above board and legal.

The only truly Unnatural things we've ever come up with are GOD & RELIGION.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 05:33 AM

"Stu...I think you are simply wrong here, I do not accept that animals, with the exception of humans, knowingly have same gender sex.
In the "lower" animal world sex is triggered by instinct and chemical signals between male and female animals.
Two males simply do not have the capacity to make these chemical signals."

This statement indicates you might have a rather naive view of sex and its function. Apart from procreation many species use sex as form of socials bonding, reinforcing relationships within groups and these are the reasons sex occurs between males. There are sound biological reasons for this behaviour, it exists and is studied closely as it gives us insight into our own nature. What you're doing is putting an anthropocentric slant on the behaviour of other species, and this has long been discredited as we begin to comprehend the nature of animal consciousness. They do think like us, although there are parallels (as an aside, I often wonder if the tetrapod way of thinking differs radically from that of a mollusc, such as an octopus? We recognise certain aspects of our own thinking in some animals, but are beginning to realise that many have very different ways of comprehending the world. But then some humans do; I saw a documentary on telly about an isolated forest tribe who had no concept of time as a linear process. They just were. Isn't all so wonderful?)

There is little doubt that we underestimate the intelligence and cultural nature of many animal's societies. We observe tool use in species ranging from us to birds (lotsa wonderful stuff on YouTube, plus the zoology blogs), we know many animals are capable of exchanging complex information on an intra-sepcies level, transmitting information between generations and have advanced problem-solving capabilities: they reason and can think in terms of steps ahead.

So suggesting that any animal is 'lower' is considered ludicrous (except in phylogentic terms, but that's not a judgement) and projecting our own human assumptions onto animals is equally wrong. Homosexuality is a natural variant of animal (including human) behaviour, is certainly not "perverse" (more judgement) and from a biological viewpoint has evolved as an important social mechanism.

Morality is a social construct. It is borne of a consensus amongst a population that certain actions cause harm to the greater good. Religious types will say their particular creed is the one and only correct moral source, some people (like myself) would concluded that many of our most basic moral principles were decided on a long time before the religions we have today were formed, and many of these tenets are fundamental to us all, regardless.

Homosexuality has existed since there were people and it has never dragged a society down. Worrying about what consenting people get up to in their bedrooms is rather sad to my mind, and is a distraction from the real issues facing us. Forcing our views on people whether religious (teaching creationism as science) or cultural (anti-gay, racist) is simply not the way forward for any society, end of.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 07:28 AM

Nor "end of" Stu, I agree with some of what you say, for example that animals are not lesser, I only used "lower" to distinguish the human species from other animals.....I suppose to be perfectly accurate, I should have used "higher" rather than "lower".
I don't agree about the status of homosexuality as presented by you,
You do not address the negative aspects like sexual health rates, or where homosexuals are to fit into society, their interaction with the many worldwide, who see their behaviour as "unnatural".

The crux seem to me to be the fact that homosexual couples cannot reproduce and without help from heterosexuals they can never fulfil themselves by producing or nurturing offspring.
This in itself is against the primary law of nature, which is that the species must survive.

I will say, that you are obviously sincere in your views and are also much better educated than I, but I am yet to be convinced by what you have written so far. I would like to see you tackle the negative aspects of male homosexual behaviour.....there seems to be a difference between the sexual health of homosexuals , male and female.
Do you feel able to explain this?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 08:41 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 08:59 AM

or where homosexuals are to fit into society, their interaction with the many worldwide, who see their behaviour as "unnatural".

As with God & Religion, Bigotry is unnatural too. It flies in the face of evident reality and insists upon sanctimonious propriety as oppose to just accepting things the way they are by way of engendering an individual freedom which is the ultimate aim of our species. That is, to simply LIVE and to LET LIVE without resorting to mythical absolutes in the name of a fictitious deity made up long ago when we didn't know any better.

The essence of Militant Atheism is an end of Bigotry, Intolerance and Sanctimonious Falsehood which are the fruits by which we know the Religious. Attitudes sadly typified by our own dear Ake - who would bring his own prissy standards to bear on a naturally promiscuous culture he neither understands or approves of. But then again I know life-long Monogamous Gay couples in their 70s & 80s healthier than I'll ever be. Like it matters. Mountain climbing has a statistical effect on ones expected lifespan as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,The troll formally known as the troll conce
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 09:44 AM

Peace on earth good will to all men..my arse!!!.just like the xmas truce in 1914..one breif respite then they are back at it hammer and tongs.Did none of you get no toys and games this xms?...surly you havent used all the crayobs yet...come on frauds..tger is more to life than this psudo intellectual mummery..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 10:23 AM

"… and are also much better educated than I"

Nice of you to say Ake, but I'm not at all educated! 3 'O' Levels, one art and one graphic design vocational qualification from college and years of pulling myself up by my bootstraps meaning I will starting a higher degree on New Year's Day (self-funded, vertebrate palaeontology). No undergrad degree, just managed to get in (not so easy even if I am paying).

"I would like to see you tackle the negative aspects of male homosexual behaviour…."

"Negative aspects" is simply a value judgement. There is a biological reason for what is a variation of normal sexual behaviour, and however that is interpreted by individuals is, in a sense, irrelevant as it doesn't alter the facts of the situation.

However to us it does matter, but should it? Personally as long as it's legal and people are happy I can't see what it has to do with me, or why I should oppose it. I don't believe that homosexual behaviour is any more or less 'bad' than the behaviour of the tens of thousands drinking themselves into oblivion several nights a week and acting promiscuously - and as long as it doesn't affect any innocent people then that behaviour is of no concern to me. Of course as a society we pay a price for this behaviour in terms of taxation, perhaps a degree of intimidation going to certain places at night or a sense of disgust at the mess left the next morning. But it's part of who we are as society, and so is people's sexual behaviour.

So there's a certain degree of subjectivity to how we approach issues like this. Essentially it's about freedom of choice and so I fully support gay marriage, gay clergy and gay anything else. There's strength in diversity and we all have something to contribute.

There's so much more to worry about, like the Creationist fundamentalists who want to fill our children's heads with falsehoods, lies and misrepresentations. They are a concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket nodding
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 10:45 AM

I think Dave the Gnome makes a pertinent point. Rather speechless myself....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 11:19 AM

I'm really impressed Stu, good luck in anything you go for.

I think you slightly miss the point though, the negative aspects include an epidemic of sexual disease, which does not affect other demographics.
The ruined lives and cost of lifetime treatment, Is something which should be of concern to everyone. Something needs to be done to contain this epidemic.
It is not simply a case of "none of my business". Neither have you attempted to explain why these infection rates exist, is there something intrinsically wrong with male to male sexual relationships which causes these rates over all countries, races, and all male STD's?

The rates are rising annually, while rates in other demographics are falling, should we just look the other way and pretend that all is well with the world? Or worse actively promote this behaviour as just another safe and healthy lifestyle.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 12:12 PM

Just for the benefit of anyone who is interested in the sexually transmitted disease angle:

Unprotected anal sex has a high likelihood of breaking tissue, resulting in blood contamination. Skin is pretty impervious but stretched foreskin can fe appoint of entry, ditto the internal tissue of the anus (hence the fast acting nature of suppository medicine.

Therefore, historically, gay men were amongst the first to suffer widespread HIV infection. However, (and the data behind this is UK based but according to The World Health Organisation is very typical in Western society,) since the mid 1990s, more women than ever have seen anal sex as fashionable, possibly through expectations of men with more access to pornography than ever, and this becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. Data from NHS hospitals through analysis of accident and emergency presentation and elective colo rectal treatment shows surgical intervention resulting from causes related to anal sex are predominantly women. In addition, meta analysis of lifestyle surveys concur...

Of all recipients of anal sex, women make up the majority.

Now to deal with occurrence of one of the more nasty sexually transmitted diseases, HIV. The last reporting year of The Health Protection Agency showed just over 6,000 new cases that were marked as male to male sex caused. Awful. (It was slightly less than that, poor coding by NHS trusts skew the figures, but bad anyway.) Not many in number nationwide, but still, far too many. In fact, they make up approximately half of all new cases. Public Health England, in guidance to commissioning of GU services pointed out the success rate in asking gay men to come forward to be tested and have challenged NHS providers to encourage the other risk groups, ie women and heterosexual men with promiscuous lifestyles and substance misuse drug takers to present for screening in the admirable way gay men do.

Incidentally, over forty million blood tests that can identify HIV, and six thousand (too many) positive from gay men. Statistically, that means over a million gay screens were negative, but if you are in hospital for an operation on your leg, your sexual life is not recorded, thankfully. The interesting statistic being the vast majority were from voluntary screening for that purpose rather than routine blood tests during other clinical interventions. By far the most responsible minded group in the high risk categories.



That is why these lies and false statistics are so damning. What is worse, a false politically minded interpretation is used by those who seek to demonise gay people, including many in the medical profession. A consultant in public health is shortly due in front of a fitness panel at The General Medical Council for using selective data and lecturing it in his mosque to make a false point. He has already been cautioned by his local police for inciting hate over the matter.

(Source - British Medical Journal.) if you don't cite, Keith A Hole of Hertford calls you a liar if his google doesn't work. He likes to support our resident bigot, on account of his religious and political stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 12:31 PM

It was slightly less than that, poor coding by NHS trusts skew the figures
That bit was not in the BMJ report.
You made it up.
You think you know better than HPA!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 12:38 PM

"Neither have you attempted to explain why these infection rates exist"

I'm not a virologist, and really don't have a clue. Viri are quite adept at evolving quickly and taking advantage of certain conditions, and in a way HIV is no different to any other virus. I sort of am not too interested in getting into a discussion about this subject from this angle.

My point is that from a scientific point of view same-sex play is a natural variation of normal and exists in many species. Beyond that, I'm not sure I can contribute effectively.

I'm still worrying about those bloody creationists.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 12:43 PM

In what sense is any of that sourced from BMJ?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 12:52 PM

I have kept off for a couple of days because it was Christmas and I we have had the Gnome flu in the household. Started to feel a bit better but then read what has been going on. Oh dear...

Joe, yes, you can achieve a lot by less sinister means. I agree completely. But this is not what ake is proposing. He wants compulsory testing. Note that he has never answered the question of how he proposes to enforce this? While we are at it, how about finding out what these 'radical methods' he mentions are in more detail? See, testing alone cannot achieve anything. The test results must be acted upon. We need to ask ourselves the question, what actions will be taken?

So, ake, will you detail your plans to achieve compulsory testing and thereby eradicate the virus? Give us as much detail as you like. We all have strong stomachs.

BTW - I am far from your views of 'liberal'. I would quite happily accept cruel and harsh punishments for kiddy fiddlers and granny bashers. And you don't want to know what I have in mind for the little sods who keep stealing our solar lights.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link.
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 04:08 PM

Still stuing over ..".....".....creationists.         Any logical reason for that.......other than people might see through the theory, and recognise it,s lack of evidence.   So much for tolerance....the thought police are here!.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 05:27 PM

Are you referencing the total lack of any evidence for Creationist bullshit, Pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 06:03 PM

The crux seem to me to be the fact that homosexual couples cannot reproduce and without help from heterosexuals they can never fulfil themselves by producing or nurturing offspring.
This in itself is against the primary law of nature, which is that the species must survive.

Can anyone believe that someone can proudly come on here and shamelessly spout this tripe?

Let's see how the following fit in with ake's view of the "primary law of nature" (which, by the way, was clearly not invented until dicks 'n' fannies came along, about three billion years after life began...). No wanking. No sex if you are unfortunate enough to be sterile. No sex if you've had a vasectomy. No sex if you're past the menopause. No sex if you've had six kids already and don't want any more. No sex if you're too poor to afford kids. Do you know summat, ake? You don't know anything about the primary laws of anything. You make up primary laws to fit your prejudices. "Species must survive"? Really? Are you actually aware that 99.9% of all the species that got going on this planet have not survived? I'll give you credit for one thing at least: you don't indulge in other people's predigested gobbets of egregious tripe - you make up your own as you go along. Stroll on.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 07:10 PM

I see Ian's old health problem is rearing its ugly head again...OCLD.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 07:48 PM

"Can anyone believe that someone can proudly come on here and shamelessly spout this tripe?"

Yes.. I can... because I see the very BASIC flaw in the approach.

He said :"that the original purpose of sexual organs on any living creature was for procreation."

Due not only to ake's fundamental misuse of the term 'purpose', but also to the tendency of others insert so many insults into the debate that their often quite relevant points are lost in a bad signal-to-noise ratio, it is hard to stay focused on the issue.

akenaton: first- it is a very bad practice to C&P an 'explanation' with no quotation marks or attribution:

and second...Natural laws and developments of evolution do not HAVE 'purpose' in the sense you wish to propound. It is quite true that some sort of conditions must be in place for organisms to reproduce.. and more complex organisms develop complex bio-chemical mechanisms that often lead to reproduction. As long as a certain proportion of any species DOES reproduce, there can be amazingly varied offshoots & byways in the details of characteristics. Just as hair color and height can vary widely, so can the genetic structure that defines the hormonal balance that controls not only sexual reproduction, but also affects the subtleties of sexual attraction! You do not have to accept MY word on this: the studies and statistics are there for anyone to read and evaluate. (No, I don't have time to cite 27 cross-references right now... I just read links posted in various collections of scientific journals.)

There is **NOT** an either/or about sexual preference... there is a complex continuum of variations from total, absolute heterosexuality to some sort of bisexuality to complete, overwhelming homosexuality.... with cultural and social influences operating on exactly we react to the hormonal % we are given. (and I haven't even mentioned various asexual examples or those born with organs of BOTH sexes in various configurations).

If you have a compulsion to view the variations in human behavior as agreeing with or denying some higher 'purpose', that says more about your psychology than about 'natural law'.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 01:17 AM

"There is **NOT** an either/or about sexual preference... there is a complex continuum of variations from total, absolute heterosexuality to some sort of bisexuality to complete, overwhelming homosexuality...."

Bill, Alfred Kinsey said essentially the same thing back in the 1950s, and all kinds of people like Ake shat all over his head at the time. Simply found the idea unacceptable.

Nevertheless. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 02:26 AM

See how Keith A Hole of Hertford picks up on an issue that health providers battle with, the depth of coding, and reckons The NHS makes it up. This is for two reasons.

Firstly he tries to attack anything I or two or three others say regardless and claims his google trawl doesn't give immediate quotes we use. He cannot understand we use our own words rather than cut and paste the words of others. He came a cropper when he did that with a far right political organisation earlier this year.

Secondly, this rather technical instrument, depth of coding represents the accuracy of the published data on health issues. The Health Protection Agency moan, quite rightly, that sloppy recording by health providers (including private providers) puts a far too wide tolerance on the figures. The consultants in public health who have to advise on types and priorities of services have to weigh the raw data against trawls of other intelligence. Once this is done, corrected ( to a degree ) figures are given back to The HPA. They in turn keep their original figures as their source and acknowledge refinements by public health and commissioners. Sexual health is a small part of it. The largest area is avoidable mortality. When you hear of The NHS chief medical director Bruce Keogh putting a hospital in "special measures" it is normally a concern over mortality figures. Occasionally this is found to be quality of care but in the vast majority of figures it is depth of coding. A trust in Yorkshire went from being one of the worst to one of the best in the Dr Foster ratings without a single quality improvement measure but focussing on coding. Or in other words, a man brought through A&E In the middle of the night died of the cancer he had, not the chest infection the emergency services diagnosed when collecting him from the care home. (A typical rather than extreme example.)

Sorry to bore people but this is my work. I don't know much about creationist nonsense or what Earl Haigh had for breakfast whilst earning the title Butcher of The Somme but I am acutely aware of those despicable bodies who twist health data to justify why they hate sections of society. We see it in sexual health with gay people and we see it in tuberculosis with the travelling community. We even see high incidence of type II diabetes with Asian origin people being used in the economic migrant debate.

I recognise the arguments Akenhateon and Keith A Hole of Hertford use, because those responsible for planning and delivery of healthcare services keep a watchful eye on opinions that can reach politicians in order to combat them with the real picture.

Keith rattles on about The British Medical Journal. I subscribe and read it every week. Numerous papers published over coding. Numerous papers published over planning sexual health services. I co authored a paper on the effect of coding on mortality outliers when working in regulation. Not being a health service professional, my input was board level assurance versus false flag funding.

Don't call me a liar Keith. Every time I say anything on any matter you start your tirade. You have already been exposed as a supporter of a far right group who advocate suppressing the gay community, so your credibility is about as good as Akenhateon's.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 03:23 AM

Your post I mostly had no problem with, except you said it was sourced from BMJ.
Which facts?
You repeated your claim that the November HPA figures were inaccurate.
You failed to substantiate that the first time, which suggest that you can not substantiate it.
Can you, or is it made up?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 03:30 AM

You DID state that the November HPA report was "preliminary."
That was unquestionably a lie.
You DID state that it was "superseded" by another.
That was unquestionably a lie.
You are a liar and must expect all you statements to be challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 04:04 AM

Bill....Oh but their is a demographic which covers male to male sexual intercourse.
Its very simple really, it's called MSM (men who have sex with men) and for some reason that demographic contains an epidemic of sexually transmitted diseases. Its not too complicated really...don't try and muddy the waters.