BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 04:15 PM

Point of order, Mr Chairman!

Just because pete and 'troll-de-roll' choose not to believe in something, doesn't mean that that thing is "illogical"!

'Believable' doesn't equate with 'logical' and 'unbelievable' isn't equivalent to 'illogical'.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 05:39 PM

shimrod -" ..count as something from nothing?"
not far off actually.
"by faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear" Hebrews 11 v 3.
so yes, something from nothing - via someone, namely God.
so you are quite happy to go along with the consensus! it is just as well the pioneers of science that didn't do that, or we would still think that rats arose from rubbish by spontaneous generation. now where have I heard something like that elsewhere.......
stu also admitted to not having an answer but seems to be assuming others have [ and of course I am only arguing from a very limited understanding]
seems to me that most scientists believe in evolutionism because most scientists believe in evolution!

ah musket, master of evading the point by going off topic.
not to mention a dose of denial, and mockery.
many of my quotes are by ,to illustrate the argument I make ,that the general theory of evolution is woefully lacking evidence.
whether that constitutes cut an paste don't much bother me, as i'm more concerned with Someone infinitely greater.

actually stu, I was referring not only to first life, but first anything.
and even if amino acids were around, they don't just happen to come together in the right combination, in luckily the right conditions to turn to proteins, and on and on....
someone compared it to millions of blind people simultaneously solving a rubic cube puzzle at the same time [quote from memory]
like I say- a faith position.
the rest of your post is only a rant, not worthy of your more reasoned responses.

shimrod - could this be a turnaround on your part?
not calling something illogical, because you don't believe in it!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 08:16 PM

The last refuge of a gobshite shaw...quoting script from people/belief's you allegedly despise..

But I didn't quote anything, sugar tits. As it happens, Jaysus said mucho that I agree with, so I don't at all despise what the man is alleged to have said (do note "alleged"). But I do disagree with several of Jaysus's SOTM points, bigtime. That's the great thing about us atheists. We can consider what people say from a neutral point without being scaredy-pants sycophants, which is the mark of true Christians, a spineless bunch if ever I saw 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 02:30 AM

The only people infinitely greater than me are those who have had the exalted position of donning the blue and white strip at Hillsborough. I'd happily have a pissing contest with anyone else.

No pete. You started this saying that when employees of Jesus fuck children they aren't doing it as Christians. I'd happily go along with that. But the inference that lacking superstition could lead to having such criminal tendencies wasn't very nice, was it?

The Christian groups in America bank rolling the Ugandan politicians to make being gay criminal. That was as Christians. Pushing for the death sentence? Yep. As Christians.

Offering nonsense such as YEC as an alternative to reality? At least wait till they are adults before offering lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 03:29 AM

"by faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear" Hebrews 11 v 3.

What?? Incomprehensible, pious sounding gobbledegook!

Anyway, pete, I'm willing to go along with the scientific consensus because I'm not a practising astrophysicist. Holding some sort of 'faith-based' position because I've read a few articles in 'New Scientist' and a few popular science paperbacks would be absurd! As far as I'm concerned, the jury is out on how the Universe came about - but there seems to be more evidence for a point source followed by expansion than anything else. I suppose there might be an outside chance (probability = 0.0000000000000 ... 0001%) that it was all created by some big beardy bloke in the sky - but there is no evidence for such an occurrence (a load of pious gobbledegook in an old book doesn't count as scientific evidence). And if that was the case, to the non-indoctrinated, enquiring mind, it raises more questions than it answers!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 10:20 AM

The Christian groups in America bank rolling the Ugandan politicians to make being gay criminal
That is very concerning.
Please give some details as I can not find any reference to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 10:31 AM

Just for you, as you usually accuse me of made up shit when you can't find things...

BBC news website - it's not difficult to find..

This is by no means the only reference. It was cited in the documentary Stepping Out the other month, Stonewall have information about the funding and come to think about it, I first read it, I think, in The Week, which is the only newspaper I subscribe to, for the digest rather than the stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 10:43 AM

I read the piece you linked to, but found nothing to support "Christian groups in America bank rolling the Ugandan politicians to make being gay criminal."

I have found many references to Western churches denouncing the bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 12:26 PM

Read the fucking thing. I particularly noticed the line "It's critics say the bill gas been pushed by some US evangelical Christians."

After that try your bleeding google. Funny that I saw reference to it on the telly in a documentary, in The Week, when Haigh was being questioned on The Today Programme.....

But you, man of the world and soooo clever, didn't notice it.



Did your church give you another medal for your blazer for defending Christian Horse shit? Problem is Keith, all your denials of naughty things being done in the name of your failed saviour don't make them go away. Nigerian pogroms using either religion as an excuse still go on, even after you call me a liar for seeing a report on the news.

pete has more credibility than you. And he's away with the fucking fairies.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 12:57 PM

The only people infinitely greater than me are those who have had the exalted position of donning the blue and white strip at Hillsborough.

Ah, I see that Liverpool now top the league. And, in the Championship, Burnley, team of Jimmy Mac and my youth, are doing rather well. Odd, could have sworn the Owls were in that division...oh, hang on, yes, there they are! Gosh, my eyes aren't as quick as they used to be at scanning big lists from top to bottom... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 03:03 PM

"It's critics say the bill gas been pushed by some US evangelical Christians."
Just those 12 words in the whole BBC article, and they do not justify your claim.
I did try googling.
Nothing.
Looks like you made it up Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 04:56 PM

Was the sermon on the mount where he said "Blessed are the cheesemongers"?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 13 - 07:24 PM

"Pants on fire" again Ian?

On this forum outright lying is frowned upon, proper sources are required not second hand hearsay.

You do however seem to have rather a lot of inside information from Stonewall.
When are they going to make their midnight visit to "the Croft"? Are they preparing a "Dodgy Dossier?".   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 13 - 10:08 PM

You know, when Mudcat shuts down for a day, all the threads die. I often hope at the time that certain threads won't be resurrected. My hopes are usually disappointed.

But Ian, one would think that you could come up with better proof than Its critics say the bill has been pushed by some US evangelical Christians.

I suppose that the statement is absolutely true. You're a critic of the bill, and you have alleged that it has been pushed by some US evangelical Christians.

And it's true that we do have a few evangelical Christians here in the US who are extremely anti-homosexual, so no doubt they've thrown in a buck or two to this campaign.

This is an assertion that I have heard many times, that it's US Christians who are somehow imposing this law on Uganda - but I have yet to see any real evidence that there is any significant support for this horrendous Ugandan legislation, in any country other than Uganda.

If there's proof of this, I'd certainly be concerned. But in the interest of fairness, I think that there should be proof of this allegation of significant foreign interference to force enactment of this legislation. From what I'm seen, the bill comes from within Uganda, not from foreign influences.

And from what I've been able to learn by interviewing Africans immigrants in the U.S. about it, it seems clear to me that the African taboos against homosexuality are longstanding and come from within Africa, not from Western Christian influences.

If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd really like to see it. But all I see are allegations.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 01:28 AM

If politicians took money from foreign interest groups to change policy, it would a huge issue in any country.
That would be the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 04:46 AM

I'll ignore Keith's comment about foreign influence. He says it all himself.

Joe. It happens. The politician proposing the private members bill is quoted as saying it is the Christian thing to do. He's a Christian by the way. In the BBC documentary Stepping Out the other month he told the interviewer Stephen Fry that he was financially supported by US Christian groups.

So.   

Is it a Christian decision? Some Christians say it is therefore it must be. If you say otherwise then demonstrate why it isn't.

Out of interest, I was always taught that anti homosexual taboos were mainly brought in by the missionaries and used the high prevalence as the reason the heathens needed saving.

Sorry but defending the indefensible on account of it being Christian isn't very err. Christian? As you can see, it clouds the issue to the point that little men such as Akenhateon get confused and think their criminal stance is somehow respectable. He can't help it, he possibly needs help.

But others can make rational conclusions. Keith has a right wing agenda so his mealy mouthed picking up on detail to thicken the fog is disgraceful but because the Ugandan fascist are making laws in the name of Jesus, let's not be too judgmental eh?

If I were a Ugandan person, I'd laugh hollow bellows at the term Merrry Xmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 05:09 AM

Funny how the BBC summary does not mention that explosive revelation, and other clips are supplied but not that one!
It is as if you made it up Musket.

"Episode 1 of 2

Duration: 1 hour

In the first of this two-part series, Stephen Fry reflects back on just how much has changed for gay people during his lifetime. He meets Elton John and David Furnish, the couple who inspired Stephen to be open about his sexuality as well as many others.

This episode, Stephen travels to Uganda, where the government is considering a new law that would make homosexuality a capital crime - putting gay people to death for their sexuality. Stephen meets the men and women targeted by this proposed law and finds out the impact it is already having on their lives.

Stephen also travels to the USA to explore 'reparative therapy', which claims to offer a 'cure' for being gay. Whilst in the states, he looks at how Hollywood deals with the gay issue by talking to Neil Patrick Harris, an openly gay man who continues to land leading roles."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 07:12 AM

Steven Fry is a lying drama queen, I have viewed some of his material and he never lets the truth intrude into his ideology.
Mr Fry, appears to have several psychological problems which will be obvious to anyone who is familiar with his professional history.

It must always be remembered that the media, of which Mr Fry is a leading figure, has a heavy pro homosexual, anti-religion bias, even mainstream news programmes are heavily biased in favour of "homosexual rights"
I do not agree with the criminalisation of homosexuals for their sexual behaviour, but to be specific, the Capital crime was for specific behaviour, not just for being a practicing homosexual.
We also have laws against certain sexual behaviour, like infecting someone with HIV without telling them of your status.
Uganda retains the death penalty for many crimes.

I am against the death penalty on principle, with perhaps one exception.....the rape or murder of tiny children, the people who commit such crimes are beyond redemption, and should be removed from society, to put them out of their misery...a kindness really.

Of course, Ian believes I should be removed from society for opposing Homosexual "marriage".....I suppose its all comparative and how strong ones political agenda is.....funny old world.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 07:29 AM

I do not agree with the criminalisation of homosexuals for their sexual behaviour

So, how do you propose that the compulsory testing of all homosexuals, that you advocate so strongly, is enforced then?

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 08:24 AM

Merry Christmas Dave!

Sorry, I should have explained, the "compulsion".....IF it should be required, would be associated with the eradication of the epidemic of HIV amongst male homosexuals, not about their sexual behaviour.
They would not be compelled to stop having sexual intercourse.

I am sure "compulsion" would not be necessary after male homosexuals accepted that their behaviour must be regulated, promiscuity rates cut, and a more responsible attitude towards their sexual conduct adopted.

The family structure amongst heterosexuals, regulates their sexual behaviour to reasonable levels
Social engineering, as in the mainstream acceptance of homosexuality, always has unexpected consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 08:38 AM

BTW The "opting out" policy mentioned earlier in this thread seems a reasonable start in addressing the problem.....a move in the right direction from the agencies......at last!

Do you have any thoughts at all on how this epidemic can be defeated, or are you in the "none of our business" camp?

It seems that all you do is try to be obstructive without putting forward any ideas on the subject.

The HIV virus does not appear to be a great supporter of "equality" or homosexual rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 10:41 AM

The worm isn't fit to lick the boots of Stephen Fry. Obviously Keith A Hole of Hertford sees the one liner for a series of documentaries and writes his opinion. He appears to do the same with "history" books. Perhaps you should google the script, including the interviews with the Christian promoting hate filled politicians like the one in question and his grateful support of Christian groups from The USA. Stephen Fry and his team dealt with that documentary in a nonpartisan way, tried to ensure all sides were heard and you know what? It turns out bigotry isn't nice. Strange I know, and I doubt homophobia will die out just yet, but we can live and hope.

Yeah worm, I do whatever it is.. I didn't get to the end it's post. Sorry.

By the way worm, let's regulate your life too. Shut the fuck up and crawl away would be a good start. Nice to see you support the death sentence too.

No such thing as homosexual rights. Rights of individuals, full stop. Your puerile interest in the bedroom affairs of others is as sleazy as it is voyeuristic.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 11:51 AM

Eyup Co bloody Messiah... Less of the blaspheming!   

You obviously don't quite get this faith lark do you? Just because Liverbloodypool are the top of the finance league doesn't mean they are the best. Firstly, you are about to lose the player who single handedly got you there. Secondly, having the most doesn't make you the best. Far more Muslims in the Middle East than Christians. Far more Buddhists further east still, yet each cult will claim theirs is the best.

The difference being, The Owls actually are... Straight up and without any doubt. After all, football is real, Jesus is just an excuse for controlling people. We have women referees, Christians just allow them to be the equivalent of linesmen. They have awful dry wafers, we have pies, real honest to goodness rats' coffins. Not to mention the Bovril.

Look, the true path needs heritage, and Sheffield Wednesday go back to 1867, far more historically credible than many religions.

Mind you, I do agree with the prophet Shankley on that score......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 01:11 PM

Excellent post full of exactly the kind of denial that makes messiahs so great! This religion lark is clearly doing you a power of good. It's helping me too, though you may have noticed that I have yet to proclaim my soft spot for Bury FC. Damn, I think I might just have.

By the way, ake, by homosexual "marriage" do you mean homosexual marriage?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 01:34 PM

Soft spot? That's what I feel for Sheffield United. Pity is a wide ranging emotion......

Regarding the worm, I tend to shorten it to marriage. Fascists were roundly defeated in the war my Dad fought in. That little bastard just goes to show, they made an impression on shallow fools. I genuinely hope that one day, prejudice and irrational hatred shall be dead. We can all dream I suppose...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 02:25 PM

"The worm isn't fit to lick the boots of Stephen Fry"


I paraphrase.......
YOU lick Fry's arse if you like Ian, "the worm's" not for boot-licking"... :0)

Never have been....never will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 02:49 PM

Steve, I put homosexual "marriage" in inverted commas, as I do not agree with this definition of marriage.

In my opinion, marriage is defined as one man, one woman, a secure base to bring up children and build an extended family structure.

We see society disintegrating around us and applaud the wreckage, our brainwashed, dumbed down populace are doing their best to prove Mrs Thatcher right.

"There is no such thing as society"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 03:02 PM

Many Christians are strongly prejudiced against homosexuality, and they say their religious beliefs support their condemnation of homosexuality. Many other Christians are very supportive of homosexuals, and there are organizations in many Christian churches to promote the rights and dignity of homosexuals. The biggest such organization in the US Catholic Church is Dignity. It has not always had an easy time with the Powers That Be, but the organization continues to thrive.

So, is the bigotry against homosexuals a Christian thing, or is it just that many Christians are bigoted against homosexuals? I think the latter is true, the former not. Rather than attack Christianity as the root of bigotry, I think it far better to attack the bigotry itself. If you do that, you'll find you have many Christian allies, who also believe in justice and tolerance.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 03:37 PM

Joe, in my part of the world and in very many others, most people, both Christian and secular see sex between people of the sex as a perversion. Is it "bigotry" to oppose this "perverted behaviour" being accepted into the church and integrated into the traditional marriage ceremony?
Do you not understand these Christians viewpoint, as you watch the church come under attack from secular "society"
Do you not understand what these "secularists" are really about? Do you really think they give a stuff about the marriage rights of a handful of homosexuals?

Your church is the real target, and I'm sorry to say well meaning folks like yourself are part of the problem.
If you and others like you don't start fighting back soon, a fully secular society is on the cards.
The church fulfils a great need in a huge proportion of humanity, if the church allows itself to be dragged like a sheep to the slaughter by what is politically fashionable, then these people are being abandoned, condemned to a life with no spiritual nutrition.

But like Pontius Pilate, your hands will be clean.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 03:49 PM

I'll go along with that Joe.

Snag is, you say it isn't a Christian thing. Other Christians say it is.

You can't both be right. They quote from the bible. Both Pope and Archbishop of Canterbury have views about being gay that don't sound like "nothing to do with anyone else."

Bigots pick up on this supposed credibility for their awful crusade. I can't help thinking church leaders realise this. That said, our resident small man claims he isn't religious. Although look how he grasps at what he thinks is religious support of his disgraceful bile.

Sorry Joe. I cannot and will not accept bigotry as a valid view. Everybody has a right to live without being judged. Just look up at what Akenhateon is saying and ask yourself if gay mudcat members deserve to have to read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Elmore
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 04:19 PM

Told my doctor I wanted a second opinion. He said "You're ugly too."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 06:36 PM

Joe, in my part of the world and in very many others, most people, both Christian and secular see sex between people of the sex as a perversion.

Really? And what part of your part of the world might that be, and where do your numbers come from? In my part of the world, a part of the world that couldn't possibly ever vote left-wing even if it had a dagger at its throat, most people don't give a flying fart about other people's private lives. That's the thing, innit, ake. Other people's private lives. I regard anyone who has a prurient or otherwise illegitimate interest in other people's private lives as a pervert. So that makes you a pervert. God, I hope I've never accidentally met you. I might have to disinfect myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 06:45 PM

Disinfect yourself?......Don't do it Steve, it could be fatal. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 06:51 PM

You know, when Mudcat shuts down for a day, all the threads die. I often hope at the time that certain threads won't be resurrected. My hopes are usually disappointed.

One has three options (four in your case):

(1) Ignore the thread.

(2) Lustily take on the wankers who annoy you so.

(3) Whinge about the thread.

You have chosen option three. That is by far the weakest and most undignified option. If all the people who purport to hate threads ignored the buggers therein, it would leave approximately two of us rattling uselessly around like dobbers in a biscuit tin. There is one forum, an offshoot of Grief 'n' Nipple, that has been abandoned by just about everyone because of the sad Canuckistani troll who now runs it. By our feet have we voted. I recommend the approach. His game is not worth our candle. Other methods will lead to blood pressure and angst in what is not the real world. It's like pub sessions. There's no money in it, so enjoy yourself, get out or go insane. There is always the choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 01:22 AM

I would tackle the epidemic by ensuring there is enough money for research into the condition without having people whinging that good money is being spent on perverts! You still haven't answered my question. How can you enforce compulsory testing without involving the legal agencies, therefore criminalising those who are not tested.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 02:52 AM

Dave. If it comes up with a solution for you, assuming you haven't been holding your breath too long, see if you can apply it to the majority (just) of UK people with infectious sexually transmitted diseases.

They are easy to spot, they are called women. Of the men, the vast majority are heterosexual. Hence the issue for women.

I'll give Cameron his due. Despite bigoted shouting by the more reactionary elements of the Conservative party and the two faced cop outs by the Bishops, he realises that the vast majority of the (voting) population are decent people who don't pre judge others and are comfortable with people finding happiness wherever they need to find it.

Joe. See? Just read the sickening hate filled words it writes and ask yourself if your sense of fair play and respecting views of others needs review. Free speech is responsible speech. Something small minded vermin need to learn before being allowed out in respectable company.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 04:13 AM

Is that a joke Ian, your last post is one of the most hate filled missives that I have ever read, in fact almost everything you write is a diatribe of hatred, especially of free though or free speech.

....and you have the effrontery to accuse others of "Fascism"...:0).

You foolish child!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 04:40 AM

I would have thought the worm would have been out today carrying out manual labour or whatever it is his sort do?

Perhaps we need a compulsory register of inferior people, so we can keep tabs on where they are, what they do and especially what they say......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 05:21 AM

Still no answer to my question then?

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 05:53 AM

Ake says: Joe, in my part of the world and in very many others, most people, both Christian and secular see sex between people of the sex as a perversion. Is it "bigotry" to oppose this "perverted behaviour" being accepted into the church and integrated into the traditional marriage ceremony?

Ake, I have to say, despite opposition from the hardline liberals here, that I think you have a point. Many cultures have taboos against sexual contact between people of the same sex, and these taboos have lasted for ages. The taboos are gradually lifting in North America and Western Europe, although many people in those places and most people in other parts of the world, still hold onto these anti-homosexual taboos. The taboos aren't particularly hateful for the most part - some people of good will just can't find it within themselves to think that same-sex sex is OK. Now, one could condemn these people as horrible bigots, but they really aren't. Once they get used to the idea, they'll at least tolerate it, although they may not support it enthusiastically. Yes, there are some people who are hateful in their hardcore bigotry, but that doesn't describe most of the people who hold onto anti-homosexual taboos.

Rather than condemn these well-meaning people as bigots, the homosexual community needs to reach out to these people in a non-threatening, non-condemning way, and show them that homosexual love can be a good thing. And Ake, several homosexual couples have convinced me by their example that this is true - that their love is pure and wholesome, not something to be seen as perverted.

But just because somebody holds onto a taboo that his/her culture has held for centuries, is no reason to condemn him/her as a bigot.

---

Musket says: Snag is, you say it isn't a Christian thing. Other Christians say it is.
You can't both be right. They quote from the bible. Both Pope and Archbishop of Canterbury have views about being gay that don't sound like "nothing to do with anyone else."

So, Musket, why can't both of us be right? Christians are a huge and vastly diverse group. Why is it that you think that Christian opinions on homosexuality must be uniform?

---

And of course, this goes back to the idea that has been proposed here that is so repulsive to our "militant atheist" participants. Very often, it seems to us in the middle that the militant atheists and the fundamentalist Christians share a perspective. Both groups believe in absolutes, and the rest of us aren't so sure of that. Both groups appear to believe that there can be only one right answer to any given question, that there can be only one correct decision when a choice is presented, that there can be only one correct way of looking at things, and that people are either good or bad (but never both).

Well, many of us disagree. We don't share the "clarity of vision" held by the militant atheists and the Christian fundamentalists. We see diversity. We see that every question has a variety of answers, and every issue has a huge number of valid perspectives. The militant atheists and the Christian fundamentalists are convinced that they possess the Truth, even though their truths are very different from each other. The rest of us spend our lives trying to balance various perspectives, and we know that all we can hope for is a changing balance of perspectives that can only be an approximation of the truth.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 06:04 AM

Dave the Gnome says: I would tackle the epidemic by ensuring there is enough money for research into the condition without having people whinging that good money is being spent on perverts! You still haven't answered my question. How can you enforce compulsory testing without involving the legal agencies, therefore criminalising those who are not tested.

Dave, I worked for thirty years as an investigator for the U.S. Government, and I had a national reputation for the quality of my work. I relied completely on the good will of the people who had information to give me, and I knew that I had to win that good will. I knew that if I had to resort to coercion, I had failed - so I never made use of threats or coercion.

I had a coworker who had worked for the State of California as a venereal disease investigator before he worked for us doing security clearance investigations. It sounded to me like it would be horrible doing VD investigations, but my friend learned to take it as a matter of course - to earn cooperation from people, never to force it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 06:37 AM

Joe my friend, and I mean that sincerely, the people we speak of are not referring to "love", which is always wholesome no matter to whom it is directed. I have "loved" male family members and close friends with all my heart.....but sexual attraction, or sexual intercourse with someone of the same gender is a completely different matter.

This is what so many people find so hard to stomach...it is a natural reaction to behaviour which seems to defy nature/gods will.
God or nature created man and woman to go forth and multiply.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 06:43 AM

Hi, Ake -
Same-sex attraction is something that you and I will never understand. On occasion, it makes me very uncomfortable - especially in public displays of sexual attraction. But this is not your world and it isn't mine, so we'll never understand it. For them, though, this is the way they live life. Who are you and I to interfere, since we simply can't understand?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 07:08 AM

Dave, you still don't get it..do you?
There have been vast amounts of money spent on research, and even larger amounts are being and will have to be spent on lifetime healthcare for those affected by hiv/aids.

The problem is transmission rates, which are massively higher amongst male homosexuals than any other demographic....not just for hiv, but ALL STDs.

This is obviously a sexual behavioural problem. THINK P.R.O.M.I.S.C.U.I.T.Y.   Look at lifetime sexual partners, length of sexual relationships etc, then ask yourself, why do these figures only apply to male homosexuals?

To halt an epidemic, exceptional measures have often to be used, but I would hope that the homosexual community would be able to oversee a regime of compulsory testing and contact tracing which in time would make it socially unacceptable for practicing male homosexuals not to be regularly tested.

The opting out scheme which is being suggested, is a step on the correct path.

If infection amongst male homosexuals continues to rise at the present rates, something radical will need to be implemented.

You suggestion of throwing MORE money at the problem is a weak cop out.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 08:17 AM

Joe - My comment was about ake's line I do not agree with the criminalisation of homosexuals for their sexual behaviour
while still maintaining that compulsory testing should be performed on all male homosexuals. I quite agree with you about threats and coercion being a failure but ake is advocating compulsory testing. Which I believe is wrong. Thanks for responding anyway.

ake. Still no answer then? How would you enforce compulsory testing?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 08:19 AM

Oh yea, and I have a damned good idea what something radical would entail. Take a leaf from the annals of history maybe? Eliminate the problem altogether? Am I getting it now?

Sick, sick, sick.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 08:51 AM

much as I would like to see the atheists trying , still, to make the impossible in the least remotely likely, without One who can do the seemingly impossible, I see the debate has moved on.
seems to me that words like "bigotry" and "taboo" in use here amount to being judgmental about those of us who for religious belief, or even secular reasoning see homosexual behaviour as against Gods will ,and against nature.
I, and probably most in that category still relate happily to those who practise such things, just as much as other sinful practises, since we regard ourselves as sinners also.
sad that some posters cannot tell the difference between having an opinion and being hateful. seems those particular posters exhibit the most ill will.
but tis the season of good will, so happy holidays to militant atheists, and a blessed Christmas to everyone else.    pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 09:52 AM

Oh good grief. Now we have the against gods will and against nature nonsense. Which gods will is it against, Pete? Yours I suppose. It doesn't seem to be against Joe's or that of countless other religious people. And how can anything that happens naturally be against nature? Or is it against nature in the same way that priest are supposed to be celibate?

I have had a bellyful of this tripe. Any more and it will spoil my Christmas celebrations. Yes, I do celebrate Christmas. And any other excuse for a good time.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 10:40 AM

"This is what so many people find so hard to stomach…it is a natural reaction to behaviour which seems to defy nature/gods will."

"words like "bigotry" and "taboo" in use here amount to being judgmental about those of us who for religious belief, or even secular reasoning see homosexual behaviour as against Gods will ,and against nature."

Well, I can't invoke God but I can science and same-sex encounters exist in nature and are common, including amongst very intelligent species. Bonobos for example frequently engage in 'homosexual' behaviour, as do male lions, many herding animals and cetaceans (Google for papers etc).

So if you need to direct your ire against a certain part of society because you don't approve of their sexual behaviour, don't invoke nature as an argument against homosexuality as it common and natural behaviour. Stick with the theology and argue from there, as your 'against nature' argument is inaccurate and borne of ignorance.

Of course, I'm guessing the extremists would suggest God made nature, so you might well ask yourself why he would build this behaviour into so many species? He's infallible so you must be wrong if as a Christian you think it's wrong . . . and if you're not asking yourself that question, then you need to wonder why.

It's NOT unnatural, it's NOT perverse and it's NOT 'wrong'. Those that protest so much do so for a reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 11:39 AM

You know... I never propose restricting peoples' religion. Neither do I propose restricting peoples' lifestyle.

Joe. If you accept the observation that some people find other peoples's lives wrong, then fine. You may also observe that some people commit murder, fiddle with children and don't take library books back. Observing isn't condoning, and from your comments to the worm, that is how it comes over.

If your religious sense of whatever is hardwired in you does anything other than see people as equal, see opportunity for all regardless of sex, belief, ethnicity or sexual preference, it isn't the likes of me or the vast majority of people who are sickened by prejudice that you should be aiming your guns at.

If any religious teaching says anything other than everybody in society is equal, has equal opportunity and is treated exactly the same, then the religious teaching needs scrutinising to see if we need to protect children and the vulnerable from it.

Please don't walk a tightrope between tenets of your faith and your thoughts as a fellow human. Before making excuses for people who hate gay people, ask yourself how much credence you give to people who want to "string up niggers."

When you were a moderator, you would have asked if a post could give offence to those who stumble upon it. The worm provokes disdain, but a decent normal person reading his hate? And then you pick out a word or two and say the worm has a point?

I note I am not the only person who feels sick when reading his hatred. Pray for the bugger if you like, I will pray for the day when society moves beyond accepting hate as a view. Wanting to rape women is a view too, but I doubt I will ever fill my glass and start a debate.

Do you know why I use terms such as worm and Akenhateon? I just cannot come to terms with the idea that such people still exist in the 21st century in Western society. With the education and morals that society offers in post superstitious communities, I simply cannot see why such views have to be humoured. Hence if I must refer to it, I have to refer in the abstract. As I keep repeating, it makes me feel sick, and judging by other comments, many more too.