BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 08:41 PM

I don't know about your legal system in the States, but I can't imagine that an organisation with members can very easily change that status so that it has no kind of membership control.

Some churches can work on that basis, where there has never been any kind of internal democracy, but my understanding is that any kind of voluntary organisation has requirements on those lines. At least that applies in the country I live in.

I'd suspect that in a legal assault on the hostility to democratic control of the current NRA the issue of whether non-gunowners should be able to take over the organisation might be a significant issue, which is why in my post at 2:28 ((which I accidentally put in as a GUEST) I suggested that the responsibility for exorcising the NRA should lie primarily with sane gunowners. I'm assuming that gnu isn't unique.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 06:51 PM

Unfortunately, the composition of the membership doesn't matter, Don, since the NRA is no longer, and hasn't ben for a long time - a real membership organization. Its a lobbying and propaganda outfit bought and paid for by the gun manufacturers.

Greg F - former NRA member.

PS: The fact that the overwhelming majority of USAsians favor the Affordable Care Act and health care reform hasn't stopped the House TeaPublicans from voting 40-plus times to rescind it, at a cost of ca. 1.5 million per vote.

We're dealing with real brain death here.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 03:14 PM

""The fact that that hasn't happened suggests that most gun owners are in fact nuts. But maybe it,s more a matter of apathy.""

I didn't suggest that sensible gun owners join.

I said ""Campaign for all those Americans who favour sensible and strictly enforced control of gun ownership to pay the membership fee and join the NRA.""

I would assume that there should be no difficulty persuading the NRA to accept your subscription, whether you own a gun or not, but I am of course open to contradiction from anyone who can state that this isn't the case.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 02:59 PM

In the US culture, violence is celebrated on TV, Video Games, Movies and in the para-military and military. Gun ownership is considered a sign of masculinity (maybe in place of a penis) and the apathy of the public is based on helplessness.

Stricter gun laws, although they won't eliminate the problem, don't reinforce the violence.
These laws make it less easy for NRA lobbyists to get to politicians and take the guns out
of the hands of those who are crazy.

The analogy is, the Civil Rights Movement where you can't legislate prejudice but you can make it easier for minorities to vote, attend a restaurant with decent service, and not be refused work due to race or ethnicity.

The NRA represents not the gun owners per se but the gun manufacturers who are getting rich at the expense of human life. These manufacturers are part of a bigger military industrial complex. Greed at the expense of human lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 02:28 PM

That does seem a pretty obvious approach, Don. If it's actually true that most gun owners are sensible enough people, who have nothing against sensible rules, such as having proper checks and limitations on who can get hold of guns, all they need to do is take back control of the NRA.

The fact that that hasn't happened suggests that most gun owners are in fact nuts. But maybe it,s more a matter of apathy.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 02:08 PM

""As for the NRA, that's only in the hands of crazies because the people who aren't crazy - more especially the gun owners who aren't crazy - don't take it over and turn it around so it supported sensible policies.""

Here's a thought!

Campaign for all those Americans who favour sensible and strictly enforced control of gun ownership to pay the membership fee and join the NRA.

Then make the crazy bastards back off and do it your way. The democratic process at work!!......Simples!

Providing of course that there are any Americans who genuinely care.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 12:55 PM

McG, I'm pretty sure that the fact that our laws require a person to show a very good reason for possession of a firearm, and that 'self-protection against "The Bad Guys" or "Mad-Dog Killers" is NOT acceptable as a good reason within those laws, the vast majority of people who might otherwise be attracted to gun-ownership or possession are deterred from even considering it.

But I agree that the majority of British people rightly regard private ownership of guns, and the willingness to use them against other human beings, as an obscenity and a perversion in a civilised society.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Tradsinger
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 04:33 AM

It's a simple equation - less guns in the community means less dead people. Full stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 13 - 08:19 PM

Actually those statistics don't prove that it's the strict gun laws in the UK that prevent everybody getting hold of guns and shooting anybody in sight. Rather the strict gun laws reflect the fact that there's overwhelming revulsion at the idea that guns should be readily available, or should be seen as a normal part of life.

In fact it's not so long ago it was well into the 20th century that there were any gun control laws in the UK, and use of guns was pretty limited even before then.

As has been said here a few times, the problem in the States isn't so much the laws, it's the culture.

As for the NRA, that's only in the hands of crazies because the people who aren't crazy - more especially the gun owners who aren't crazy - don't take it over and turn it around so it supported sensible policies.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 04:33 PM

The odd irony is that people in the US who say they want a gun for protection would probably not know how to use it if faced with a criminal who does. There are very few reports of US citizens being able to protect themselves with a weapon successfully. There are no competency tests with background checks.

Most people who own guns are subject to theft of their weapons by criminals or kids who get into the gun closets.

Britain has the right idea here.

When I went up for jury duty, I told the defense attorney for the guy who used a gun in the commission of a crime that I would immediately pronounce him guilty. I didn't get selected for the jury, obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 02:37 PM

In reply to John of Kemsing, yes things certainly have changed in the UK and guns are being used more often by criminals than used to be the case. However the difference is that these are largely used by gang members and other criminals against each other, rather than when committing crimes against members of the public. It would be very unusual for an ordinary burglar or even a mugger to carry a gun. Armed robbery is treated very seriously by the courts and given far heavier sentences. The police are still ordinarily unarmed and special units attend gun incidents.

Hardly anyone here feels the need to have a gun for their own protection, because it is overwhelmingly unlikely that we will ever be faced with an armed attacker. And while we are not immune from the occasional nutter running amok, it happens far less often because our nutters usually aren't able to lay their hands on guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 04:28 AM

2011 - United Kingdom - population c. 60,000,000 - deaths by gunshot 146
2011 - United Kingdom - population c. 60,000,000 - homicides by gunshot 38

Proof (if any is needed) that the UK's gun laws, unlike those of the US, actually work.

source: gun policy.org

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 02:19 AM

2012 - Afghanistan - population 31,108,077 - people killed 2,754 - 0.008%.

2012 - Chicago - population 2,714,856 - people killed 506 - 0.018%

In Chicago in 2012 there was a shooting every 3.5 hours.

Unfortunately the reality is that the bad guys will always get the guns - our experience in Britain shows us that and we must have the strictest gun laws in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 08:39 PM

When does the government of the people and by the people fail???

When 90% of Americans want back ground checks and this chicken-shit Congress listens only to the 10% of gun wackos...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: bobad
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 07:15 PM

"It really beats me why anyone would want a firearm?"

In the US they say it's for protection against all the other persons with firearms - they don't get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 06:01 PM

The problem lies with the political clout of the NRA and the cowardly Congress who refuses to oppose them. Actually, the NRA is indirectly responsible for the mass shootings in the US and until their lobbying efforts and political control is curtailed, there will be more.

Stricter gun laws will have an effect on curtailing mass shootings although not eliminate them entirely because of the ideological nature of a gun culture that misinterprets the Second Amendment.

Not every person has a right or privilege to gun ownership and the owner
should be made accountable through liability insurance, mental stability, competence in handling a weapon through background checks and licensing and automatic weapons should be banned.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 05:54 PM

I think we need better people. Desperately.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 01:00 PM

Nonsense. Don't believe everything you read in the tabloids.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 12:18 PM

Many, many years ago in London, a policeman was shot and killed while attempting to arrest two burglars on the roof of a warehouse. It was a time when only soldiers carried guns. The newspapers were engaged with this story for ages. Shock! Horror! Policeman killed by armed robber! This was the notorious Craig and Bently case, a tale of questionable capital punishment in itself.

       Today, in cities such as Manchester and Nottingham and East London the police are having to deal with gun incidents by gang members with illegal possession on a daily basis, sometimes resulting in deaths or injuries. Even automatic machine type guns from certain Eastern bloc countries have been confiscated.

       My, how things have changed!

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 01:06 PM

It's interesting the way people talk about the American Constutution as if it was set in stne, and the Supreme Court just interpreted what was there all the time. In fact, in this as in other matters, the situation has been that over the years it has ruled one way and ruled another, and twisted and turned to meet the political views of the panel of judges.

So for example in 1939 it ruled that either the federal government or the states were perfectly entitled to limit any waepons types not having a "reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia". In 1876 it ruled that any limitations on imposing restrictions on bearing arms only applied to the Federal government. In 2010 it ruled precisely the reverse"...

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 11:59 AM

'And, of course, the vast majority of British people have absolutely no desire whatsoever to own a gun'

Good point

It really beats me why anyone would want a firearm?

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 11:52 AM

"the only point I'd argue on is......"Regulation of firearms should be as stringent as the rights for automobile owners, with liability insurance needed, testing for competency, and laws governing the use of cars."

In the UK the regulation of firearms is considerably stricter than for cars, and rightly so. Which is why hardly anyone here owns a gun, and hardly anyone gets shot. "

And, of course, the vast majority of British people have absolutely no desire whatsoever to own a gun, and have the sense to realise that you're not safer if you have a gun, in fact it's more likely that you'll be shot by an armed assailant if you have a firearm.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 10:54 AM

In the greatest democracy in the world, the majority of the population must like guns so much & murder so commonplace, that they're not really concerned about changing laws.

I'm glad I don't live there!

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: PHJim
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 10:45 AM

From: gnu - PM
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 03:54 PM

"SSP... Canadian 《Noun》 Armed to the fuckin teeth but not in public. Keeps guns and ammo securely locked up separately as required by good gun laws. Has a permit to do so which is renewed every five years by good gun laws. Must possess a licence for possession or a licence for possession and aquisition or a licence for possession and aquistion of restricted weapons. Must apply for a permit to transport restricted weapons (like handguns) to and from an approved range at ceratin times and by certain routes. Must take a course and pass tests for competency before obtaining permits. Must submit to a background check. Must have written permission from a spouse.... I'll stop there. In other words: Canadian 《Noun》Responsible gun owner."

That definition makes it sound like all or even most Canucks own guns. Very few of my friends own guns and those who do own hunting rifles. Canadian handgun owners are not commonplace.
Canadians and Americans are not all that different. We watch the same violent TV shows and movies, play the same violent video games, have the same proportion mental disorders and bad people, and Justin Bieber has shown the world that the "polite Canadian thing" is a myth, yet somehow Americans are statistically much more likely to die from guns than are Canadians.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 09:53 AM

The only point I'd argue on is......"Regulation of firearms should be as stringent as the rights for automobile owners, with liability insurance needed, testing for competency, and laws governing the use of cars."

In the UK the regulation of firearms is considerably stricter than for cars, and rightly so. Which is why hardly anyone here owns a gun, and hardly anyone gets shot.

IT WORKS.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 09:49 AM

thirteen reported fatalities at a US Naval base


Hey, the shooter was exercising his Constitutional rights.

The fact that he was a nutcase with any number of run-ins with the Police is immaterial.

It doesn't matter how many innocent thousands are gunned down in the US annually, the defense ofConstitutional rights takes precedence.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 09:35 AM

Gun regulation would cut down the mass shootings because there would be prohibition on automatic weapons being sold. People who were mentally unstable could be identified
and refused after a comprehensive background check. Criminals would still be able
to obtain these weapons but might be isolated easier by law enforcement.

The NRA is an accomplice to the mass shootings taking place in the US. They have bought Congress and made them fearful. The NRA is a dictator not unlike Assad. They have not come out against more sophisticated weaponry. They have no scruples about the usage
of firearms.

Regulation of firearms should be as stringent as the rights for automobile owners, with liability insurance needed, testing for competency, and laws governing the use of cars.

The "well regulated militia" among firearms owners and the NRA doesn't exist. It's NRA's distortion of the meaning of the Second Amendment that intends no "standing army" in peacetime.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 12:11 AM

"And on the news today, another mass shooting with thirteen reported fatalities at a US Naval base."

Yep, and the result will be a few million more guns sold to the small-dick, John Wayne wannabes. My wife has a theory that Americans are all idiots. I've always disputed that with her but, certainly where firearms are concerned, I'm beginning to think she might be right.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 06:50 PM

Ed T: "Are you choking the chicken again gnu? You will go blind doing that:)"

He'll see to it!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 06:45 PM

f the supply of volunteer soldiers dried up...& etc.

That's as may be, Don, but your idea that soldiers in the US are serving " They are doing a job you or I wouldn't relish and they are doing it often involuntarily" because of the draft is what's REALLY bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 06:15 PM

And on the news today, another mass shooting with thirteen reported fatalities at a US Naval base.

Ho hum!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 06:08 PM

""It's not guns. It's the gun laws.""

And here I was, thinking that was the subject of the thread.

Well, you live and learn!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 06:04 PM

It's total bollocks Greg F!

If the supply of volunteer soldiers dried up and America's government wanted to fight, they'd reinstate the draft in a New York minute.

The only reason that there was no draft for Iraq or Afghanistan, was the fact that their technological advantage was such that they needed only the existing volunteer forces.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 05:56 PM

Are you choking the chicken again gnu? You will go blind doing that:)

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 02:38 PM

It may be that this is based on ideas that can't be legislated but certain laws prohibiting automatic weapons and clips that contain many bullets can be implemented.

The US is crazy with a gun culture that apparently is politically and Ideologically motivated and fueled by the nutty NRA. Canada and Switzerland have about as many guns as in the US but don't have mass shootings as we do here on a regular basis.

Once again, the Constitution has been perverted and misread. Gun owners by in large are not a well-regulated militia.

Automatic guns were designed to kill people even though they are used secondarily for target practice. The crazy NRA supports their ownership distorting the Second Amendment.

Does it say something that you can use a gun owner license to vote but you must have a government ID if you don't have one. The message, only gun owners have the right to vote without any other documentation. The Voting Rights Act has been gutted by the Roberts Court. (Thread creep).

Movies, video games, TV shows all bow and give oblations to the Almighty Gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 08:52 AM

"Why would anyone want a gun? Weird."

Why, to protect themselves from 'The Bad Guys' and 'Mad-Dog Killers' of course!
What they really need protection from is their own pants-pissing fear and paranoia.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 08:47 AM

"Here is a challenge for each and every one of you. Go get your favorite gun, buy a gun if you don't have one, then lay your gun on the middle of the floor not allowing anyone to touch it, sit and wait. Let me know how long it is before your gun shoots and or kills someone."
THe key phrase here is "not allowing anyone to touch it" which sounds suspiciously like a gun law. Absent this, how long would it be until someone picked up the gun and shot somebody?

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 08:12 AM

Why would anyone want a gun? Weird.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 04:19 AM

"It's the gun-laws"

Yep, gun laws that allow any Tom, dick and harriet to own guns, and a constitution that actively encourages it.

Anyone who believes that gun-nuts are a few sausages short of a barbecue should come and live here, where we have good gun laws designed to limit gun ownership very strictly indeed, so almost nobody has a gun, and almost nobody gets shot, .

Anyone spot the correlation there?

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 11:09 PM

LH... misunderstanding. My apologies.

As for the rest of the comments, it amazes me that yet another gun thread will go on and on. Literally thousands of posts on this topic have choked the chicken here in Mudcat for years. And few really get it.

Guns don't kill people. Bad gun laws kill people. You can't sentence a gun to pay for committing a crime. If you don't regulate who can own a gun and what kind of gun they can own, you can never limit crimes involving guns. BUT, you cannot take guns away from Yanks and Canucks. If you tell a Yank or a Canuck they have to give up all of their guns... well, they just think yer a fucked up idiot that must live amongst a bunch of truly fucked up idiots that can't be trusted to be a responsible gun owner. Seriously, most Yanks and Canucks are smart enough to be responsible gun owners. Unfortunately, we have bad gun laws that allow misuse and abuse. Hopefully, we can get that rectified. But, NObody will ever take all of our guns away so shut the fuck up about it.

It's not guns. It's the gun laws.

See ya in another thousand posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 10:14 PM

"
"Criminals will find a way to get them regardless of your useless laws. "

Great logic. Therefor we shouldn't have any laws, since criminals disregard them.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 04:03 PM

""BTW comparing the murder/gun murder rates in Canada to the U.S. is moronic at best. The population of NYC is probably greater than the entire country of Canada..(besides what U.S. citizen in their right mind gives a tinkers damn about what happens in Canada anyway)""

Even if one corrects for the population difference, (lets say Canada is roughly 10 percent of the population of the USA), the gun crime stats differences are still significant-Canada being much lower. Maybe it's guns, maybe it's the wacko users, or maybe it's just that some in the USA don't give a darn what happens in Canada and choose to remain misinformed of what happens elsewhere, or find it too crime free and dull and stay home in the US of A (thank you for some of that, US crime fellas) - who knows the entire reasons for the differences :)

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 12:04 PM

Ooops. Operator error. Lets try THIS

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 12:00 PM

Youse gotta problem wid dat, Dick?

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 11:30 AM

Doesn't everyone find the thought of a legally blind (or spastic) or otherwise physically limited, or criminal gun owner comforting?

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 11:00 AM

they are doing it often involuntarily, having been drafted (in the US at least)

NOT. Hasn't been a draft in the US since Vietnam. Don't believe Britain has a draft. Can't think of any of the European countries that do.

Also, THIS raises a valid point.

My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.
   -Carl Schurz

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 02:26 AM

And, anyhow, cars do require strict government regulations to own, at that, don't they? & people who harm others with them are very likely to lose the right to own them...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 02:10 AM

" hammers, cars, knives, etc will all be outlawed or require strict government regulations to own "

hammers are designed to do what?

cars are designed to do what ?

knives are designed to do what ?




and guns are designed to do what ?


When you can build a house, take your kids to school, and whittle a flute with a gun, your a-hole argument will begin to make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 01:55 AM

"Criminals will find a way to get them regardless of your useless laws. "
.,,.
True, here in the UK also --

but beside the point. It's not the criminals, who are breaking the law anyhow so have a 'sheep-as-lamb' take on the matter, who are the main problem...

but the respectable people who get angry & happen to have a deadly weapon to hand, so kill or harm seriously someone with it, which they would not do if it were not to hand.

I have said at some point on every thread on this topic in the last 4 years (& just count them!) that the rest of the world looks on in disbelief at that powerful nation so full of wise people ~~ the leaders of the civilised world, no less ~~ which nevertheless can't get heads round this simple fact; and continue to dysfunction in a manner pretty well unique to them as a result. If you don't believe me, just look again at those helpful annual statistics provided by Wiki {"List of countries by firearm-related death rate"} of the number of gun fatalities, country by country, which I have cited before: in single, or at most double figures everywhere except the US; where it is a 4-figure number ~~~

& be ashamed of your disgracefully dysfunctional non-laws...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 09:25 PM

yes