BS: Religion, which is the best one?

Subject: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 07:43 AM

For those seeking enlightenment, which of the many belief systems in the world do you think is the best?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 07:56 AM

The one that makes you most able to help your fellows. And for some people, that could be atheistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: bobad
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 07:58 AM

The Church of Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 08:08 AM

They are all fairy stories, it seems that collectively most of mankind has a need to believe that someone else ie. a god is responsible for everything.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 08:28 AM

Sheffield Wednesday Football Club
Established 1867

Next question.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 11:13 AM

Poufs game.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 11:15 AM

What an odd thread question?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 11:18 AM

I think I'd agree, Ed. It's a question that seems intended to provoke people.

Which one is the best one? The ones that are based on the Golden Rule (do unto others...) - in their roots, most major religions seek this ideal. And yes, most major religions have had members and leaders who have perverted and distorted this ideal from time to time. As institutions and communities age, they get stale - and they need constant renewal and reform.

You may call them fairy stories, Dave. I call them sacred myths that embody the ideals that religious people seek. Literalists cannot understand or respect myth. This is what strident atheists and religious fundamentalists have in common - they have no sense of poetry and cannot see beyond the literal interpretation of things, and they cannot respect ideas other than their own.

It seems to me that there is a deep connection between folklore and sacred myth. Shallow people may scoff at them - but once you take the time to ponder them with an open mind, you find there might just be something to it. While they may not want to ascribe to a religious creed themselves, tolerant and open-minded people refrain from dismissing religious beliefs, and acknowledge that religious creeds have inspired much wisdom, art, literature, music, and culture.

So, are you a fundamentalist/literalist, Dave?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 11:58 AM

Mr. Happy has started several threads like this recently... God knows why.

I suggest that folks refrain from playing this game....

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 12:22 PM

I don't respect myth.

I don't know why anyone would

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 01:11 PM

One mans myth is another mans belief!... Just because some people don't believe in something.. doesn't mean it has to be a myth...... or that it doesn't exist!

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 04:06 PM

The lack thereof. Go with intelligence.

But there is a great flowchart here for figuring it out based on your dietary preferences...

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 04:48 PM

Just because some people don't believe in something.. doesn't mean it has to be a myth.

...also doesn't mean that isn't a myth.

Which Religion is best?

d. None of the above.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 04:55 PM

God doesn't believe in Atheists... but it doesn't mean they don't exist!

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 04:59 PM

Lightning Balls! Sign on the dotted line and send your donation to me or either of the joint Messiahs. Guaranteed happiness and Bingo every Wednesday.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 05:24 PM

john Blanchard wrote a book called "does God believe in atheists?".
it is a pretty thorough consideration of the question of atheism - but yes, I would say that would,nt I !.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 05:36 PM

This is what strident atheists and religious fundamentalists have in common - they have no sense of poetry and cannot see beyond the literal interpretation of things, and they cannot respect ideas other than their own.

What an appallingly stupid thing to say. Please tell me that you regretted that remark the instant you hit send.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Bwl on grand daughters iPad
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 07:22 PM

The best religion is the one which is the least religious.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: mg
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 08:06 PM

I would say something like the Quakers...have done some great things in the world. Mormons are very good at stocking up food and helping after storms etc. Try to find one that does not hurt people.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 12:29 AM

Now, why am I reminded of the great Samuel Johnson's reply to a question as to which of two bad poets was better then the other? ~~

~~Johnson at once felt himself rouzed; and answered, "Sir, there is no settling the point of precedency between a louse and a flea."~~

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 01:25 AM

I meant what I said, Steve Shaw. Religious faith requires a sense of poetry - otherwise, believers fall into the absurdities of fundamentalism. Take the creation story from Genesis. I admit that some people take it literally, but I don't think the writers wrote for them. If you look at it from a poetic viewpoint, it's an expression of wonder and awe at the world that surrounds us, seeing that world as a precious gift.

The Book of Isaiah is all poetry, and the works of many of the other prophets make sense only if one reads them with an eye for poetry. And the Song of Solomon, and the Book of Revelation. And the Holy Qur'an - lots and lots of poetry. The Bhagavad Gita? Same thing.

But I have found that strident atheists and religious fundamentalists can be interchangeable. They see things as absolutes. When the position they once held falls through, they grab onto the exact opposite with equal enthusiasm. And they cannot concede the validity of any perspectives other than their own.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 01:49 AM

But Joe. Joe. Joe.

You know yourself, your use of Scripture to enrich and guide is increasingly a smaller part of religious expression. Most people taken in by religion tend to believe.

There seems to be a difference between having belief and believing. You seem to think everybody can make the distinction. I have news for you. At least two people on this thread would read Genesis as literal history and one struggles with the concept of dinosaurs.

I would agree that religious belief may require a sense of poetry but by that standard most believers would fail the test. I do note that children and vulnerable adults seem to be the main recruitment target of most cults.

Frankly, I have huge issues with your inferring that life without faith is lacking something. I also need to think through whether you are demonstrating capability when it comes to defining fundamentalists and "strident" atheists.

The vast majority of people, including those who lazily call themselves Christians through a sense of tradition rather than faith don't give a rat's arse unless and until religion affects them or decisions about them.

Calling such people atheists is labelling apathy and irrelevance as being some dark force setting itself up as an alternative to religion.

I don't look for alternatives to stamp collecting and I don't look for alternatives to religion yet it is obvious religious bodies are scared of being dismissed as irrelevant even more than they are of competing cults.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 02:07 AM

Oh, come, Joe: you know peerfectly well that Genesis was intended to be taken literally by Moses or whoever when he wrote it. Song Of Solomon, now -- what is that erotic love poem doing there anyhow? The K Jas Bible commentary about its being all about Christ's love for His Church is clearly nonsensical, unless they thought that Solomon (or whoever*) had the power of an 800+ year precise prophecy. And how did that nice long agnostic document Ecclesiastes ever infiltrate?

~M~

*The first verse, "The Song of Songs which is Solomon's", could equally translate from the Hebrew as "The Song of Songs which is about Solomon"; thus making no actual authorial claim ~~

שיר השירים אשר לשלומה

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 03:56 AM

I don't think "enlightenment" is the goal for most religions. For those seeking "enlightenment" I guess Zen Buddhism or some other non-typical spiritual system involving working at particular practises dedicated to achieving enlightenment would be the thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 04:04 AM

I'm just a non believer Joe, I have a genuine love of traditional song, particularly English folk song, does this not count as poetry ?

I have tried several times to engage devout christians in discussions, but eventually they always trot out the same responses, ie. we don't understand God, he doesn't tell us his reasons, God works in mysterious
ways, God gave us free will etc.
If I ask a christian if god is all powerful, kind and full of mercy, why did he let a Bradford mother starve her child to death and leave his body in his cot for several years, they trot out the same old answers.

I constantly read news stories about child abuse [ sore point there for catholics ] child trafficking, lots of recent child murders, I can't rationalise these things with there being a god who is powerful enough to prevent these evil things with a wave of his hand........but doesn't.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 06:18 AM

Myth: A commonly-held but false belief, a common misconception; a fictitious or imaginary person or thing; a popular conception about a real person or event which exaggerates or idealizes reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 09:00 AM

"Buddha wasn't a Christian but
Jesus would have made a good Buddhist"... Ray Wylie Hubbard

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Kit Griffiths
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 09:23 AM

Mine

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 10:46 AM

Gee, that got a lot of responses. It's hard to figure where to begin. Mr. Happy, you have properly given one definition of myth. Joseph Campbell and others define it as a sacred (fictional) story meant to convey a philosophical insight.

Here's another definition from Merriam-Webster: a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon

Musket says: You know yourself, your use of Scripture to enrich and guide is increasingly a smaller part of religious expression. Most people taken in by religion tend to believe.

Well, Musket, I have no doubt that fundamentalist religion is phenomenally popular, because it appeals to people who are reluctant to think for themselves. I think, though, that the fundamentalists appear more widespread than they actually are, because they spend a lot of money on media. Philosophical believers tend to spend their money on feeding the poor.

And don't try to blame ME for the follies of fundamentalism. It certainly isn't my cup of tea.

MtheGM, modern scripture scholars say the Pentateuch (Torah, five books of Moses), including Genesis, were written and rewritten over a period of over five hundred years, building on traditional creation myths and expanding beyond that. I'd go back to Joseph Campbell again - would he say that ancient peoples held their sacred stories with the same sort of mindless literalism common in fundamentalist churches nowadays?

Back to you, Musket: There seems to be a difference between having belief and believing. You seem to think everybody can make the distinction. I have news for you. At least two people on this thread would read Genesis as literal history and one struggles with the concept of dinosaurs.
I would agree that religious belief may require a sense of poetry but by that standard most believers would fail the test. I do note that children and vulnerable adults seem to be the main recruitment target of most cults.
Frankly, I have huge issues with your inferring that life without faith is lacking something. I also need to think through whether you are demonstrating capability when it comes to defining fundamentalists and "strident" atheists.

Musket, I think you're putting words in my mouth there. I think you're missing something if you dismiss all religious beliefs and practices as foolishness. I am not a Muslim, but I have found much in Islam that I can learn from. But if I dismiss Islam altogether as violent fundamentalism, I dismiss all the wonderful things that have been accomplished by Muslim scholars through the ages.
And even fundamentalist Christians have their value, as long as they're not the kind who use their fundamentalism as a support for their bigotry.
And no, I don't think everybody can make distinctions, in whatever matter is before them. Sadly, that ability seems to be becoming increasingly rare.

Dave Hanson says: If I ask a christian if god is all powerful, kind and full of mercy, why did he let a Bradford mother starve her child to death and leave his body in his cot for several years, they trot out the same old answers. Dave, that's looking at God as some sort of Master Puppeteer that controls whatever happens in life. You know from your own experience that's not the way life works - shit happens. Most things happen by coincidence or by logical consequence. How we respond to what happens, is what makes the difference.
Most ancient perspectives define God as ineffable, undefinable. But if I were to attempt a definition, I would say that God is "That Who Is Beyond, and That Who Is Within" - I think that's a definition that is consistent with the mainstream traditions of most major religious denominations. Not a cut-and-dried answer, I'll agree - but it's something to ponder. And people have pondered over that for millennia.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 03:09 PM

While we're at it can we decide what the best breed of dog is? An who's the best singer and guitar player? And what is folk music anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 03:55 PM

Border Terrier
Me
Me
Whatever I want it to be.

Do I get the prize?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 04:23 PM

Mr Happy said: "For those seeking enlightenment, which of the many belief systems in the world do you think is the best?"

Pretty much there were no respondents to this thread who were interested in answering the question postulated.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 04:56 PM

I remember this post from 13 years ago

Back then I posted
my dogs better than your dog
my dogs better than yours
my dogs better cuz he won't eat kENNEL RATION
my dogs better than yours.



I had family members who went to school for religious studies.
I instead experienc3ed and participated in Christianity, Judaism, Zen Buddhism, Nichren sho shu Buddhism, Mystical Islam "Gurdjeiff", Bahai,
Hinduism. I read about many others like Casteneda and the Power of Myth collection but experiencing the various religions taught me more about the people and real life alterations religions actually cause.

And the winner is...

you.


if you experience as many or more as I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: selby
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 05:51 PM

Seems to me the most popular religion is the religion of ME, you see it on the roads, in the supermarket, its around everywhere and it seems to work for lots of people.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 11:44 PM

musket-- concept of dinosaurs - what does that mean.
I have not noticed anyone having trouble with the FACT of dinos, though there are lots of people believing they lived millions of yrs ago, despite evidence that they were much more recent.

joe- just because someone takes the biblical narrative as historically trustworthy hardly means they are unthinking. hopefully that was just a gross generalization, and not the bigotry it at first appears.
and on the subject of charitable giving, I hear that fundamentalists give more than liberals, and not to just church based causes.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 02:25 AM

Well, Pete, I think that the rigid, combative literalism of many biblical fundamentalists of the current day, is just wrong. Trying to prove scientific or historical information from the Bible is foolhardy.

I do not believe that the Bible or the Qur'an or other sacred writings were intended to be taken as literally as modern fundamentalists take them. Many even ignore the context of what they read, and try to prove things with single, out-of-context verses. They lose sight of the spiritual impact and importance of these sacred writings, because they're too bound up trying to use the Bible to disprove science and history.

On the other hand, I do think that some people overly intellectualize religious belief, to the point where non-intellectuals can feel uncomfortable. When I teach Bible study, I ask people to read large passages, at least half a page, and then think about how the passage affects them - without intellectualizing the thing.

And yeah, I think that "someone [who] takes the biblical narrative as historically trustworthy," has been misled. Their rigidity makes a laughingstock of the Bible, and of religious belief in general. I wish I could be more generous, but I truly believe that fundamentalism is wrong. I think that the Bible was written within a historical context, but it is not intended to teach science or history. There are ways to be conservative without buying into the rigid extremes of the fundamentalists - but rigid biblical literalism, is just wrong. It's an embarrassment to Christianity, as Islamic fundamentalism is an embarrassment to Islam.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 02:28 AM

That's more like it. Attaboy!

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 03:18 AM

Now, the historical information in the Bible starts getting more accurate after the reign of David, although much of the story of David and Solomon seems to be in the language of myth, not history. It goes off into myth again in the stories of Elijah and Elisha. And of course, the stories of Jonah and Job are clearly fictional - with elements of folktales. Jonah and Job are both meant to teach a lesson, not teach history.

Now, don't think it's only religious fundamentalists I abhor - I have similar disdain for antireligious fundamentalists, who interpret the Bible and other sacred writings with the same literalism - and then condemn these sacred writings as absurd. That sort of "I'm the only one who's right" rigidity is poison.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 08:54 AM

Any one whose followers are enjoined to mind their own sodding business, and let others get on with theirs.

In other words, it doesn't exist.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 09:30 AM

Whoever strives for wisdom (what the OP seems to mean by "enlightenment") should study thoroughly and critically whatever ideas mankind has produced - starting with the ones that were most influential on one's native culture. We can learn from such ideas and their historical and sociological contexts no matter to what extent we approve of them. In other words, we study mankind as such.

Religion is a different thing from wisdom, though somewhat related. There is no such thing as a best, good, bad, or worst religion (as opposed to theology or religious teaching). Your religion is your identity, rooted in the history of your cultural context, so you normally have no choice at all. Rather, some people can be said to have more religion than others.

Religious teachings are attempts to verbalize religion, necessarily inadequate. The larger part of religion is non-verbal, encoded in rituals and everyday customs. For children, the first important question is "Who are we?", then comes "Who am I, and how can I interact with this community?", and only third, and latest, comes "What is the world like?" For each of these questions we have distinct languages - since they use the same words, they sometimes seem to conflict. We must remind ourselves and others from time to time that religion is not meant to tell us anything about the objective world.

Like all aspects of human life, religion is being hijacked to increase some persons' own ego, power, wealth, etc. This means that even the most righteous religious leaders cannot always be trusted to say, or even know, the truth about the very religion they represent. If you asked Bill Gates about the nature of computing and software, you would not expect an unbiased answer either, and you would not condemn all computing because of his unsatisfactory answers.

The relation between religion and doing good is much more complex than reflected in verbal teachings. In particular, it is absolutely wrong to believe that religion was invented to make simple people altruistic and obedient.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Claire M
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 09:50 AM

Hiya,

Music can, & does do all that for me. Does a much better job, too.

I love to hear an ole blues man singing about how he done gone over, & how Jesus gone make up his dying bed. It was & is one of the greatest joys of my life, & when I'm carried to my own bury'n ground [walk me along, carry me along] I want lots played; but as much as I love it it doesn't make me believe in any of the sentiment behind it. I wish I did, but you can't make yourself believe it.

Why would I want anything to do w/ someone who chose to put me in a wheelchair ??

§

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 10:07 AM

Claire, have you heard religious people say that it was God that put you in a wheelchair? I would say your physical condition put you there, and your physical condition is the result of a number of natural factors - logical consequence of a number of events.
Pete, you're a conservative Christian - how would you answer this question?

And Pete, I usually try to avoid arguing with people who "take the biblical narrative as historically trustworthy." If asked directly, I say I cannot accept biblical fundamentalism. It is directly contrary to what I was taught in eight years of seminary, and in four decades of study after that. But if that's what people believe and they're not trying to force that on me or on my kids in school, then I see no reason to argue with it. People believe, what they believe - and for the most part, I think they should be allowed to do so - and respected for who they are, not what they believe. I disagree with your beliefs, but respect you because I think you are an honest, decent, gentle, fair-minded person. Same with Ake.

Can't say the same for the people here who are always in "attack" mode. I have no respect for that.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 10:24 AM

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 10:55 AM

Joe ~~ If God, however one conceives of such an entity (if one does), cannot control "natural factors" and their "logical consequence" ~~ then what is he/it FOR, please? Whence came those "natural factors"?

Regards

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 04:24 PM

In my view, it is a mistake to ask religion to explain anything in the physical world. Also, the traditional attributes of God, including his "existence", are not applicable in terms of physics.

Although I am not a friend of formulations like "music is my religion", it seems to me that Claire has grasped the essence of religion more precisely than she may think.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 04:24 PM

"Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion."
― Jon Stewart

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 05:20 PM

You may call them fairy stories, Dave. I call them sacred myths that embody the ideals that religious people seek. Literalists cannot understand or respect myth. This is what strident atheists and religious fundamentalists have in common - they have no sense of poetry and cannot see beyond the literal interpretation of things, and they cannot respect ideas other than their own.

Just a thought - but surely the literalists are the ones who seek these elusive religious ideals in Myths and 'Fairy Stories' thus missing the point? Away from that sort of literalism, Myths operate on a level more akin to poetry in the sense of ostranenie that a more literary approach reveals. I would argue such an approach is more respectful to the material of myth / fairy story which becomes a window to ideas far greater than our own - and far greater than anything 'religious' as such. Religious thinking is 'literalism' that holds (say) the creation found in Genesis to be 'true' / 'metaphorical' in an actual sense rather than just a story. The literalist / religious person (fundamentalist or otherwise) believes it to be the Word of God, thus missing the true beauty of the thing which is entirely human.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 06:12 PM

"If America leads a blessed life, then why did God put all of our oil under people who hate us?"
― Jon Stewart

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 06:16 PM

Human is a large word, whereof conscious invention by individuals is only a small part. Most of what we are, comes from our ancestors and from the whole history of our cultures, in a way that cannot be traced to single willful acts of anybody such as authors/editors of mythology. If that is not "the Word of God", or the Holy Spirit, what else?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 07:01 PM

hi joe, its very late and I don't think I should attempt answer now.
also, it is unclear to me wether Claire has been told this or she blames God for her condition.
if you are ok with telling us, that would be helpful,but of course we don't want to intrude uninvited.   blessings pete.