Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 07:58 AM

Enough of the self-deprecation, Jack, you're as much as an enthusiast (for the music, if not the concept) as I am, and you think about it a lot more than most.

The concept, and the study thereof is integral to the appreciation of the music. Can you have one without the other? I doubt it. Problem is I was invalided out of academia 20 years ago & I've never quite recovered my nous in all that time. One thing I still carry though is that whilst LINGUISTS study, account for & celebrate the feral phenomenon of language, only PEDANTS insist upon correctness.   

I hope you enjoy Bert's radio programmes - I certainly did.

The Folk Music Virtuoso is a classic I cherished for years but never did think to make a copy of it, alas. Now I can enjoy it afresh - but not before backing it up!

Nice to see the spirit of co-operation between such regular antagonists. I much prefer my vituperative arguments to be grounded in some kind of mutual respect, or even friendship.

I take that as a given!

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 07:38 AM

the same could be said of jazz, prog-rock, classical, most of the bill at Glastonbury and any number of other minority-interest musics

Not true. Those idioms are born of the bourgeois social elite. Not co-opted & reinvented by them on the backs of proletarian art & creativity, which is in any case diminished by notions of anonymity & traditionalism. Like I say - a case of not seeing the trees for the wood.

Of course we can see the phenomenon of Prog in terms of it being a collective cultural tradition, but to really understand it's history & development, we have to address ourselves to the lives & times of the individual geniuses (specific musicians, bands, promoters, entrepreneurs, graphic artists, pharmacists etc.) that were involved in its creation, as oppose to its perception and definition. Prog, Jazz, Pop, Classical etc. are musics defined by the people who make it. Folk, OTOH, was a music defined by the people who perceived & collected it. A very crucial difference.

Talk about lazy generalisations, Brian - yours is positively narcoleptic.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 07:33 AM

"but its almost total rejection by the working class is a crucial factor in our understanding of its nature & purpose."

Whilst it is true that in my area the bulk of the working class (whatever exactly that is) are not folkies it is also true that the a good proportion of the folkies are of the same said working class. We have factory workers, window cleaners, paramedics, domestic helps, shop workers etc. Even those who maybe some wouldn't describe as working class often come from a solid working class background. I run my own financial services business so am I working class? My mother was a dinner lady and my father a hosiery worker. I see no need to throw up false divisions. The truth is that the vast bulk of the people who attend our club are just ordinary folk.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 07:26 AM

"As ever I defer to your superior learning on the minutiae of this matter, Brian - (I'm a folk dilettante at best)"

Enough of the self-deprecation, Jack, you're as much as an enthusiast (for the music, if not the concept) as I am, and you think about it a lot more than most. I claim no superior learning, but I do think it's worth paying attention to detail, and that flaws in that can throw suspicion on the greater whole.

I hope you enjoy Bert's radio programmes - I certainly did. Jim is very generous in sharing his (often rare) traditional song resources. Nice to see the spirit of co-operation between such regular antagonists. I much prefer my vituperative arguments to be grounded in some kind of mutual respect, or even friendship.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 07:22 AM

Did the Young Tradition sing it like it was? Or was that just more middle-class revisionism? Not that it matters. What was was; and what is, is - the rest is down to personal taste. Ultimately, in matters of art, we're only answerable to ourselves, not some namby notion of The Tradition which is simply a matter of not seeing the trees for the wood.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 07:06 AM

Never saw the late Johnny Silvo then?

Or the chap from the Spinners... But the proposition about a mainly white demographic is broadly true - the exception proving the rule.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 07:04 AM

"its almost total rejection by the working class is a crucial factor in our understanding of its nature & purpose."

Even if we were to accept such lazy generalisation and terminology, the same could be said of jazz, prog-rock, classical, most of the bill at Glastonbury and any number of other minority-interest musics. Not all of which, I imagine, were born of 'imperialistic paternalism' or 'fabrication'.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 07:03 AM

As ever I defer to your superior learning on the minutiae of this matter, Brian - (I'm a folk dilettante at best) - but the gist & soul of the thing is all present and correct. As I said earlier once I managed to track a copy of Fakesong down I was amazed how mild & straightforward it was - but it is an OU book after all!

Anyway, I'm in a cool mood - my new pills are working wonders (blood-pressure! Moi!) and I've just received a braw wee bundle from Jim stuffed with A L Lloyd radio programmes, so I'm battening down the hatches as winter (supposedly) brews without with a vengeance. And me with a braw new bike on order... The thoughts of riding along the prom to Cleveleys listening to Bert on my MP3 player is just too much.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 06:57 AM

I'll say more when I've reacquainted myself with the actual books, but speaking as a Marxist I'd rather have patient, nit-picking scholarship from a grumpy Tory than a good story with the edges shaved off from someone whose politics I share - just as I'd rather have The Young Tradition singing it like it was than The Imagined Village doing Guardian-friendly rewrites. (A contemporary "Hard Times of Old England" with a verse against the Countryside Alliance? Really?)

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 06:51 AM

The only black face you see at a folk festival is on a morris dancer with feathers in his top hat.

Never saw the late Johnny Silvo then?

DtG

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 06:39 AM

Sorry again : it's THE crucial factor... likewise it's pure white demographic. The only black face you see at a folk festival is on a morris dancer with feathers in his top hat. And that's a relatively recent morris fashion...

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 06:37 AM

'Fakesong' presented a useful resume of the work of the 19th century ballad collectors as well as the Edwardians, and was no doubt a necessary corrective to the previously uncritical acceptance of the ideas of Sharp and the first Folk Revival. However, it's undeniably agenda-driven, to the point where a notion presented on one page as a possibility (i.e. speculation) is stated as proven fact a few pages later - the kind of logical jump, ironically, that Harker accuses Sharp of. I also remember with some amusement Harker's attempt to depict an unnamed 19th century community (which, after a bit of digging, turns out to be Stony Middleton) as some kind of suburb of Sheffield.

Though some of the late Mr. Bearman's wilder outbursts did him no favours, I've yet to find a rebuttal of his analysis of Harker's figures and textual claims regarding Sharp.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 05:44 AM

(I'm sorry - I'll post that again...)

(while at the same time wishing he'd turn down the rhetoric and stop banging on about being a socialist as if it was a bad thing)

The crucial thing with both Fakesong & The Imagined Village, is that neither author resorts to 'rhetoric' or 'banging on' - they simply give clear accounts of the social & cultural history of Folk which, I would have thought, is pretty much self-evident anyway. From the imperialistic paternalism of early folklorists to the middle-class middle-English hobbyists & apologists of today, Folk is a fabrication born of a disparity which rests at the very heart of our island's history both ancient and modern. Its appeal to intellectuals of the Left and Right is easy to figure, but its almost total rejection by the working class is a crucial factor in our understanding of its nature & purpose.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 05:18 AM

(while at the same time wishing he'd turn down the rhetoric and stop banging on about being a socialist as if it was a bad thing).

The crucial thing with both Fakesong & The Imagined Village, is that neither author resorts to 'rhetoric' or 'banging on' - they simply give clear accounts of the social & cultural history of Folk which is pretty much self-evident anyway, I would have thought.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 05:01 AM

"Jeez! That's the f***ing Wild Rover"!
Happened to me in a singaround in Miltown a year ago
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:50 AM

I've always felt that London is actually a set of villages, each with its own scene. When I lived there, I had a flat in Bayswater, used to walk down to Notting Hill and Portobello Road of a Saturday morning, had friends in Battersea, friends in Muswell Hill, friends in West Hampstead, friends in Putney, etc.

Each of these places had its own vibe, with its own character - and its own musical shape, - and anyone who's lived in London, or still lives there, will understand that. That vibe was created by the people who lived in the area. They made the music; they made the scene. The pubs and clubs were the spaces where the music could happen and - yes - much depended on a sympathetic landlord.

In my pub-playing days - and I still do the odd gig in one from time to time - the common saying was that a pub landlord had to take over the bar three times what the band were paid, just to break even. (I've never gone into the actual economics of that, but I can believe it's basically right given a landlord's overheads). So, he/she gets in music which pulls in the punters - whatever that music might be in the particular London "village" in which the pub is located. Those punters probably won't be tourists, and the music probably won't be traditional music.

All of which has very little to do with traditional music per se.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:40 AM

Have managed to find a beautiful version of 'Wild Rover (from the Carolan family) and am often amused when asked "why don't you sing the one everybody knows".

I used to sing that version regularly during my Athlone/Glasson days - and keep an eye and ear out to spot at what stage someone would say to their neighbour "Jeez! That's the f***ing Wild Rover"!" ;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:26 AM

I think folk can be presented at least four levels aimed at attracting different audiences/participants.

(1) The concert - either festival main acts/concert halls etc, or folk club guest nights. Aimed at attracting audiences who want to see (or be seen with) a particular act. These audiences could be folk club habitués (or sons of habitués), or those who have originally come into 'contact' through tv, radio, other internet. In this case the act, or what the act does is the draw.

(2)The folk club (back room) environment, a social gathering of people with a common interest (ie folk).

(3) The session, usually tunes rather than songs, but run in a more public space. I would also include folk dance/ritual in this category, eg morris, long sword etc etc etc.

(4) Public space performs - pub bands, bar venues at festivals etc. Apart from festivals, where the acts are engaged by festival organisers, pub bands may be engaged by pub landlords with the aim of drawing punters into venues. One example of this is a pub in Brentford but I can't remember its name.

While pub acts may perform what is seen by those who take folk music more seriously a more stereotypical image of what folk song/music is, it does draw in customers who enjoy it - and enjoying something must surely be the first step in becoming more involved in folk. When we were in Dublin the performances in the pubs where we went did come under the stereotypical category, but we still enjoyed ourselves more than is we had gone to a pub with a large screen sports match blaring out.

London does have occasional folk concerts, and folk clubs, and sessions, but if we go to other public spaces - nothing - multi sports screens, fruit machines, juke boxes, but next to no live music, and what live music there is, virtually no folk - and what there is isn't widely promoted.

To a large extent, pub landlords need to take a lead, or be convinced to take a lead in this so that more folk song/music has a chance to be seen more in public, and if the interest takes off, then it would be promoted more - at that in turn would spark more interest in folk music, people wanting to here more and a wider breadth of what folk is about - and folk clubs re-emerging to cater for the demand. And so on and so on...

In the 19th Century every port had its sailortown, virtually every city had (and probably still has) its red light district. What city like London needs (not just the square mile) is its cultural district - not just the big business theatres but an area known for where visitors can see culture - of at least a representation of culture close up, vibrant, exciting - so tourist can come away and say - yeah, I've seen London culture first hand.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 01:49 PM

OP,could be we are being too anal retentive.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 10:30 AM

What, and argue on the basis of an informed opinion? Who knows, it's so crazy it might just work.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 09:30 AM

Perhaps you could read or re-read the book and then decide.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 09:07 AM

Bit more to it than that, I think, but I don't pretend to be an expert on any of this - I've just read some of Bearman's polemics & thought he was making a lot of sense & advancing what seemed to be quite telling criticisms (while at the same time wishing he'd turn down the rhetoric and stop banging on about being a socialist as if it was a bad thing).

Anyway, he won't be writing any more, or so I'm told, and I'm sorry to hear it.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 07:55 AM

Bearman's 'dismanting' of The Imagined Village consisted of saying that I'd made Mary Neale the book's 'hero' - I disagree, but readers can decide. And then treating a misprint as a deliberate slight on Cecil Sharp.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 07:07 AM

Sorry to hear, elsewhere, that Chris Bearman has died. I don't think I'd have wanted to cross him, or to get onto the subject of politics - I get the feeling he saw 'Marxist' as a term of abuse* - but his work dismantling the Harker/Boyes critique is valuable & deserves to last.

This isn't to say that Sharp & Karpeles were paladins of the proletariat, or that nobody ever went out collecting from a great socio-political height, like Sidney Carter's young man with a microphone. Just that if you're going to make this kind of argument you have to do it properly.

*But then, he wasn't the only one.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 05:28 AM

Forgot to update you on the difference between a Folk festival and an Acoustic Music Festival as witnessed at Swinton last weekend.

Well, certainly for the afternoon sigaround, it was quite significant. The folk festival ran an 'anyone session' with named artists leading in the bar of the pub whereas the AM festival had it more like a concert in the back room. Both had their advantages but it was telling that toward the tail end of the afternoon a 'breakaway' informal group formed in the bar!

One big plus was that the landlord put his cask bitters on sale at £2 a pint all day. Maybe AM fans drink more than folkies :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 05:38 AM

'S all all right Jack
I feel the same about 'Liverpool' as I do about 'Larks they Played Melodeons', 'Wild Rover' and numerous other good song which have been hammered into the ground simply because they're good.
AHave managed to find a beautiful version of 'Wild Rover (from the Carolan family and am often amused when asked "why don't you sing the one everybody knows".
There are a couple of worth-digging-out versions of 'Whiskey in the Jar' and 'Black Velvet Band' if anyone cares to take the trouble to look them out.
Leaving of Liverpool, particularly in its full version is a beautifully poignant song and works very movingly when sung with a degree of sensitivity.
Answer my last PM Jack; have made a start and might have a little time on hand in the next week or so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 05:13 AM

"It is totally unfair of club organisers to put the onus on singers by suggesting that they should have to "ask their listeners not to join in"

I totally agree with that. In our club the problem is not so much with harmonising as much (which at least tends to be quite good) but with percussionists. Not the real percussionists but with ones who started on percussion as they feel they should be doing something and have that anyone can bang a drum attitude. Several months ago I had practised one of my own songs with a female friend and when we tried it at the club it was totally spoiled by a woman who'd bought a cajon and was going to bloody use it whenever she could. The song stops half way through then restarts at a much slower tempo then shifts back to the original. She started banging on the drum and made no attempt to watch and work out what we were doing etc and it ended up a real mess. We hadn't asked her to join in!

In our club you can have someone doing something quite rousing where participation is wanted. However if you are going up after that and want to do something on your own then you really now have to say "please don't join in on this" which is always a bit awkward. Much better that people only join in if asked. Especially as after our open mic we go to the pub for a free for all pub session afterwards where everyone can play all night.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 03:03 AM

Jim! Honestly that was a cross post. Pure coincidence!

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 03:01 AM

British Music is in a pretty Fish 'n' Chip Traditional mode at the moment. There's a lot of amazing young musicians content to tread cultural water no doubt owing to wider recession / depression. Whilst that level of reaction has always been the case with Folk, it's been less obvious in popular musics, where new glories arise in the face of evident despair (i.e. Post-Punk). Now there's a nebulous underground of middle-class folk wyrd whilst more dynamic acts (like Lune Deep here in Fleetwood) are essaying cover versions with a power, wit and grace that leave old grunters like me gasping for breath in disbelief at the cunning of a bunch of fifteen-year-olds even if they are doing cover versions. But that is the nature of popular & folk music forever,right? At it's worse it's : don't come back to our folk club until you can sing something we can all join in with (I've actually had this recently; I spend days working up new ballads only to be asked if I know 'Leaving of Liverpool' Which I don't. And never will.). Talking of which right now one of my favourite bands are Liverpool busking band BOLSHY, who never fail to get our toes tapping & leave us with glad hearts for the rest of the day...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgV7vDnzSsM

As someone once said : The Folk Process continues...

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 02:59 AM

There's nothing better than a good joined-in chorus, or a sensitively participated-in refrain when it's welcomed by the singer.
MacColl and Seeger used to come in for a lot of stick because of the time they took teaching choruses.
I remember particularly the first time I ever heard 'Sweet Thames' at The Singers Club; I had arrived late and couldn't find a seat, so I sat on the edge of the stage facing the audience.
I swear they breathed in time with the singer, and that beautiful refrain..... still sends shivers.
Peggy sang a ballad entitled 'The Baron of Lys' - a young woman is seduced by a nobleman, she tries to find the identity of her seducer, who prevaricates.
The choruses fall into two halves, her question - his responses/prevarications.
Peggy divided the listeners into two sections, the women joining in the woman's part, the men, the Baron's
When it worked, as it usually did, it was truly memorable.
Ewan and Peggy had stock 'finishers' to their evenings, chosen by the fact that they had longish choruses 'I'm a Rover' and 'Leaving of Liverpool' were among the most popular.
They always left me with the feeling that I had been part of something rather than merely a bystander.
Which is all a far cry from something which (I understand) has become standard practice in many clubs - an audience being allowed, even encouraged to join in anything, anywhere.
It is totally unfair of club organisers to put the onus on singers by suggesting that they should have to "ask their listeners not to join in" It's difficult enough to stand up in front of any audience, without adding a further complication which can quite often throw up barriers between performer and listener.
Simple bad manners, at the very least - artistic vandalism equivalent to painting a moustache on the Mona Lisa "because somebody told me I could" at its most extreme.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,eldergirl on another computer
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 06:33 PM

I love devising harmonies to songs, but it's usually in the choruses, and Quietly so as not to disrupt the enjoyment and concentration of others. and many songs demand proper focused listening, in which case, should we not all Belt Up?
on the other hand, roaring along with a shanty is some of the best fun you can have.
our home town folk club runs guest nights, and singarounds. often there are twice as many at the singarounds as at the guest nights. everyone wants their little turn in the spotlight (me included). and many of the sing around habitues are singer-songwriters, some better than others. and some of them do not know trad 'standards' well enough to join in with. some just want to sing their bit, are there for the self-expression or whatever. fair play to them, but as a result it vfeels less like a Proper folk club to me! could the humming along habit be related to this Me in the Limelight aspect of folk\acoustic clubs?

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 05:16 AM

Off topic alert!

How interesting Jim, what you say about harmony singing in the folk context -

"However I think it's fair to say that that type of singing was relatively unknown in this country, with far less chorus songs in the body of songs than would be the case in England or Scotland. Indeed until the Voice Squad started singing some of the 'big' traditional songs (brilliantly I might add) it really was the case of one singer, one song."

This concurs somewhat with what we were told by Mick Moloney (The Johnstons et al) when The Copper Family first visited the U.S. in 1994. However, Mick claimed that it was returning members of the Irish diaspora in London bringing with them the then new Bob and Ron Copper L.P. that sparked an interest...he went so far as to say that he thought it was as a direct result of it, and was anxious that Bob should know. Well I don't know, but I found Mick's argument persuasive, and he's a highly respected folklorist and historian of the Irish traditional music scene as well as being a thoroughly nice fellow.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Gourmet
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 03:19 AM

British FOLK is quite ok compared to british FOOD.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 12:14 PM

We can't be stoned all the time.

Speak for yourself :-) Come to Swinton on Saturday and well will try to prove that wrong...

DtG

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 11:47 AM

In many cases music is a soothing background sound. Nowt wrong with that. We can't be stoned all the time.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 09:20 AM

> I think it is paying the ultimate respect to a singer to actually listen to what they are singing. If someone has gone to the trouble of actually learning a song and practiced it until they feel comfortable enough to sing it in company, I think the least we should do is listen.

Not the "ultimate" respect, the "least" respect. It goes for playing, too, except, obviously, at dances. Too often, live musicians are
thought of as little more than part of the speaker system.

Thanks to portable devices, music for too many people has become a soothing background hum to accompany their lives. Movie characters don't comment on the soundtrack.

Paying attention to live musicians would be like eating a bowl of corn flakes and thinking, every morning, "Gee, people actually made this stuff from corn that grows out of the ground. I bet it was hard!"

No, you just eat the corn flakes and go on to something else.

Hence the relative unpopularity of genres that do require attention.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 08:45 AM

There are grey areas re above post, The harmoniser might be brilliant[it does happen].
it is courtesy not to join in, unless you know the person well and know they do not mind, this applies to percussionists in instrumental sessions too, it is not a free for all, however this means you run the risk of losing the occasional brilliant percussionist/guitarist, the general etiquette is do not join in unless you do it very quietly, this should apply as regards singing too, unless the singer encourages you in the chorus, likewise chorus singers should listen to the lead singer and follow, not impose or slow down in the manner of Les Paisley[ a lovely man with a fine voice ,but one who was guilty of this 25 years ago , so it is not anew phenomenon
enjoyment is the name of the game but one persons enjoyment should not ruin another persons enjoyment

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 07:43 AM

I wonder if something that caught my eye in September's Living Tradition Magazine may be described as something that has gone wrong on the British Folk Scene?
I have to say, I never really came across it in all the years I was going to folk clubs, except when you were unlucky enough to sit down next to someone doing something equally annoying and eccentric like rattling a crisp packet or extracting belly-button fluff!
The only time I have uncounted it recently is from British visitors, some of whom I would have thought were around long enough to have known better.
I understand that it is regarded as a constitutional right in some places to give solo performances the 'Singalonga-Max treatment (sort of like carrying weapons in the U.S.)
By heartfelt support and deepest admiration to Brian for pointing out what I believe to be a growing menace.
Jim Carroll

Dear editor,
ONE SINGER, ONE SONG?
I recently had a rant on facebook where I expressed some strongly held opinions on the practice of harmony singing in sessions in this country. The FB post provoked some interesting reactions and consequently I feel the topic merits further discussion to perhaps get a wider perspective from interested parties. Do people see it as an issue or am I just a grumpy old fart?
So what is the problem you may ask? I think my main gripe is the fact that there are an increasing number of people in singing sessions who feel it is okay to a) join in with every song b) hum along in the absence of them actually knowing the words, and worst of all c) make usually horrendous attempts at harmonising which can involve hovering above, below or around the particular note until they achieve something resembling harmony. All this is bad enough when the GBH brigade (grievous bodily harmony) can actually sing but it is ten times worse when the offender's vocal abilities are less than perfect.
I have spent most of my life around singers and in recent years as one of the organisers of the Inishowen Singers Circle, I have had the privilege of spending time in the company of some of the most wonderful singers from all over the world. It is certainly the case in singing traditions in other places, particularly outside of Ireland, that it is the practice for everyone to sing together and indeed to harmonise in many cases. I have wonderful memories of the Sunday afternoon sessions in the North Pole Bar in Clonmany during the annual Inishowen weekend and being almost lifted aloft by the wonderful harmony singing, particularly from the Scottish contingent. However I think it's fair to say that that type of singing was relatively unknown in this country, with far less chorus songs in the body of songs than would be the case in England or Scotland. Indeed until the Voice Squad started singing some of the 'big' traditional songs (brilliantly I might add) it really was the case of one singer, one song.
For me I think it is paying the ultimate respect to a singer to actually listen to what they are singing. If someone has gone to the trouble of actually learning a song and practiced it until they feel comfortable enough to sing it in company, I think the least we should do is listen. Certainly there are times when a particular singer invites participation from those around them but I think on these occasions the singer's intentions are obvious. It should also be equally obvious when the singer's intentions are that people should not join in.
Traditional music has often been considered a minority sport, and traditional singing a minority sport within a minority sport. We all have stories of being asked to sing when the musicians want a break to go the bar and struggling to sing over the chat. Indeed the reason why so many singing only circles and groups are in existence at all is to give those who want to sing a platform and a place where they can sing and be listened to. Unfortunately, even within singing circles the level of respect for the singer from other singers, in my opinion, is eroding and it is something that should be addressed.
One of the replies to my original FB post on this topic suggested, in true singer's fashion, that I should go and write a song about it. Perhaps I will, and I take great comfort in the fact that when I sing it no one else will know it (but what about the hummers !)
Yours in harmony,
Brian Doyle

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 02:33 AM

Nor this end Steve - once again I find myself in total agreement with your point to Will - lifting the corner of the music to see what's underneath is part of the enjoyment of doing what we do.
My favourite quote from Wimberley's Folklore of the English and Scottish Ballads:
"An American Indian sun-dance or an Australian corroboree is an exciting spectacle for the uninitiated, but for one who understands something of the culture whence it springs it is a hundred fold more heart-moving."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 09:13 PM

Hey Jim, no worries! I agree with you on almost everything, as you well know, but I can't see why it shouldn't be OK for us to part company ever so slightly on certain matters musical. No loss of respect this end!

Yes, Will, I've explored the scholarship bit on Beethoven 'til I'm blue in the face and found it seriously wanting (with one or two noble exceptions: I have a wonderful book on the late quartets written by Joseph Kerman about forty years ago, for example). But exploring the music in scholarly fashion does reveal depths that just sitting back and enjoying it might just miss. I thought it was well worth a try.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 03:17 PM

Susan,
Not sure I have the expertise to respond to your interesting comments - but will take a closer look when I'm more at one with the world (not at my best while recovering from the after-effects of having to have the end of my hearing aid be fished out of my ear - oh to be young again!!)
I'm not sure there is an either/or answer to the human transmission/universality of themes question, but I'll sleep on it (Niagra Falls noises allowing)
One of the magic moments of my life was sitting in a cottage about thirty miles outside Budapest discussing (via a translator) the comparable merits of the Hungarian and British variants of The Cruel Mother and various revenant Ballads with a very elderly informant of Kodaly - they don't do package holidays like that any more!
Blandy and all:
"But I'll find time for The Folk Music Virtuoso and other Bert Radio that anyone has lying around... "
Numerous of Bert's output went up for grabs some time ago here on Mudcat.
If anybody has a problem tracing them please let me know - as somebody once said, "they're made round to go round"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 01:40 PM

Not so much for me debating with Steve Gardham, lol.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 01:30 PM

Thanks, CS - I did interpret your comment incorrectly and apologise for that. I can see now what you meant.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 01:22 PM

For many, the unraveling is part of the enjoyment.

For others, not so much.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 01:05 PM

Jim, I'll attest to your open mindedness when it comes to TM. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think this open mindedness comes from an understanding of the process as something that involves change which is neither improvement nor a departure from authenticity.

It occurs to me that the process as a whole encompasses two dynamics. One of these operates within a community, this passing along of songs we discussed above. The other is migratory: a song travels and is incorporated into another community's repertoire.

I would use the following analogy. In anthropology there are two competing theories to account for the universality of themes found in myths and legends of various cultures around the world. One says that these universal themes are intrinsic to the human psyche and the other says that they spread via carriers. I don't recall the names of these theories but I must say that only in the Western mind would these theories compete. In fact, they are complementary.

You can take a seed anywhere and sow it, doesn't mean it will grow. Likewise, even if a story or song was carried from one community to another, and thus could not be characterized as an indigenous expression of the folks at the receiving end, if it didn't resonate it wouldn't be adopted. With migrations, trade alliances, political alliances, songs and stories are obviously going to be shared. Although sometimes ownership can be attributed to a particular community, I think it more common that it cannot. Each variant retains its own regional spin.

It's like the proverbial chicken and egg. It makes more sense to enjoy the mystery than to try to unravel it.

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 11:15 AM

I'm flattered!

So you should be, just don't go hoisting me with your own petard.

Musically, I keep an open mind & an open heart. Thanks to this thread today I've had my Bix albums out, likewise my Bartok string quartets, which always leads me to Purcell chamber music; I've played Bert Lloyd's various Topic albums of his East European recordings as well as the special edition of Ommadawn that arrived this morning (bought by my wife to cheer me up from my recent medical gloom) and now I'm on with the recent Jordi Savall Balkan Spirit CD which we bought in Oxford when we were down south in the summer for the Leigh-on-Sea Folk Festival - how long ago that feels! After this it's a Nonsuch CD of Balinese Gamelan I bought last week at Action Records in Preston & promptly forgot about. Later I'll be cooking dinner with Miles Davis (Big Fun or On the Corner, yet to decide) & I've a mind to watch the Symphonic Yes DVD tonight whilst said wife does her college work upstairs. One of my current musical obsessions is the scores for the darker side of 70s childrens' TV, such as SKY, Dr Who and Children of the Stones etc. etc. which underpins a lot of my thinking about FOLK in general and the sterling work being done on the fringes by Sproatly Smith, Hare & The Moon et al, but that's just a tiny tip of a very big iceberg which is getting bigger by the day.

So much music, so little time! But I'll find time for The Folk Music Virtuoso and other Bert Radio that anyone has lying around...

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 10:43 AM

Sorry if my last post appeared to be confirming Vic's criticisms of the thread, I'm enjoying the conversation myself!

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 10:36 AM

The notion, that because we are not bombarded with traditional tunes and songs in our every day life, that somehow this music has vanished is erroneous.
Search google for; folk clubs, traditional sessions etc. in the UK there are thousands. Within 25 miles of where I live I have a choice of at least 4 or 5 clubs or sessions every night of the week.
the quasi-academic arguments on here are mostly unsupported subjective views and I suspect would get short shrift in a real academic environment.
Seek and ye shall find; there is something musical out there to meet all tastes. If all else fails set up your own club, session, song circle, ballad session, traditional song debating society.
Best wishes, John

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 10:29 AM

I'm flattered!

Subject: RE: Traditional Music: Where are we going wrong?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 10:22 AM

I suggest a quick listen Bert Lloyd's 'Folk Music Virtuoso' which some kind Mudcatter put up for downloading last year - does a magnificent job for those who wish to broaden their musical outlook

Where? When? I had this for ages until I lost it. I love his commentary as he waxes lyrical about the modal melismatics of migrating Indo-European hunter gatherers & herdsmen. Swoon! I must have this! Everyone must have this!