BS: The Pope's Survey

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 03:38 AM

I don't know whether he sounds less plausible trying to sound reasonable than when he is frothing at the mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 05:16 AM

"
It is however part of the religious office to insist that questions of morality and social coherence be taken very seriously and discussed properly."

Yes, and that does not take place in mainstream society any longer, the pressure groups construct the new morality.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 05:08 AM

How many Catholics are there in the world?
How many involved in smoke chimneys ?
How many women involved in choosing a pope?

If we are to discuss democracy lets go!

I doubt there is any democracy so it is luck rather than judgement that he has views that are popular with a wider audience.

Not as wide as to include equality of women in society. Not as wide as to embrace all regardless of any status. Not as wide as to promote safe sex. Not as wide as to expose those guilty of shielding awful criminals in the ranks.

Yet he obviously is influencing wider than his membership. Not a bad thing in terms of some of his message but the principle......

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 03:55 AM

Joe,

No matter how Pope Francis was elected, his credibility will depend upon the job he does.

Exactly.

The idea of democracy is that the people's free wished should be implemented as faithfully as possible; voters occasionally find it necessary to elect someone who has no connection to the previous elite.

In contrast, religion is by its very nature (as I see it) our connection to our past, so it cannot be chosen freely. Religious leaders are first of all required to represent their religion, analogous to constitutional monarchs (whom I find less useful, by the way). Of course, definitely unpopular representatives are sometimes unseated, or weakened by those who defect to other denominations (think of so-called "Old Catholics").

My important point is that this representative function does not extend to ethics (in detail), science, politics/economics (in detail), and other branches of philosophy. In these matters, a pope or a queen have as much legitimation qua office as, say, a film star: they happen to have the attention of mass media and their "fans", and the responsibility resulting from it.

It is however part of the religious office to insist that questions of morality and social coherence be taken very seriously and discussed properly.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 02:15 AM

Well, Steve, sometimes I'm not all that sure about elections. I live in the United States, and I'm still wondering how George W. Bush became President in 2000. And for that matter, I'm wondering why so many people still insist that the man who won the popular election in 2008 and 2012, is not legally qualified to be President.

No matter how Pope Francis was elected, his credibility will depend upon the job he does. So far, he has done quite well - and he is widely supported by Catholics, even though he did not get his job by popular election. I, for one, did not expect much good to come out of this year's papal election, because the bishops in general have become increasingly conservative. I was pleasantly surprised. I guess other people were pleasantly surprised, too, since Time Magazine named Pope Francis their "person of the year."

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 08:45 PM

The leaders of the US, the UK, Canada, France, Ireland, South Africa, India, Australia, Argentina, Brazil, (some bastard stop me please...), New Zealand, Spain, Italy, Cyprus, Chile, (fer chrissake, OK, I'll stop...) were elected by the people. This pope was "elected" by a bunch of time-serving, celibate old men wearing frocks. No woman, child or lay person had a say. As far as I'm concerned, that means that this Pope, along with all other popes before him, has no authority whatsoever beyond the authority he has over those people who are gullible enough to belong to his sect. Yes, he gets a public voice. A bloody big public voice, at least as big as the public voice of properly-elected politicians. Now I don't think that's right. I don't think the Pope, having been elected by no-one other than Vatican cronies and arse-lickers, should have any more voice than me, you, or Joe Cunt's cat. But he does, and the sheer authority (gained but not earned) derived from having that voice, gets him the ears of the public. So far, he has not recognised the humility that ought to come from that privilege. He wants to be a pop-star pope. Don't be fooled by all that alternative touchy-feely papal niceness, guys. But worry ye not. Type will be well and truly reverted to when the chips are down. The Vatican men of marble will see to that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 12:03 PM

Ah well. If you want to compare jobs.

I was lovely and warm when I worked down the pit.

Got a bit cold when I was in the construction industry.

Boiled over when I read that dinosaurs with no respect for people they don't understand still exist.

Funnily enough I wasn't thinking of me. I don't have a steering wheel heater. I saw it on the option list but thought it daft. Oh and before calling anyone a failure look in the mirror will you? You even fail to be trusted in company in case you embarrass people with your extremist drivel.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 05:18 AM

I've never been able to afford a BMW.
Though I'm pretty sure I've lost more sweat and blood than your average banker or, failed "NHS advisor".....and put a damned sight more into society.

You may have a warm arse while I have frozen hands, but I have the respect of the people I have helped in my community.
These people are my friends, members of families my grandfather knew, if they don't have enough money, they still get the work done and they pay it when and if they can.

You haven't a clue about society or how it works, you live in an ideological fairyland and if you think the Capitalist system provides anything approaching equality, you are also deluded.

Pope Francis was perfectly clear, "Capitalism is a tyranny"....I have been saying that for decades....It is the root of society's problems.
Or have you got a hot line to the Pope?...Like the one you have to HPA.   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: GUEST,musket again
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 03:33 PM

Just conducted a survey. It appears that "the rest of us" present worm excepted, are members of the human race. Equally so.

Looks like you're wrong again.

Whether you put the seat and steering wheel heater on in your BMW as you drive home from the office or come down off a scaffolding to warm your hands on a gas ring, you are all equal. In the eyes of Joe's God or the eyes of the law, regardless of race, Creed, colour, ability or sexual persuasion.

You ought to try respectable society one day. It's fun.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 11:51 AM

Ok.

My reasonable assessment of you is that your odious filth has no place in decent society therefore unsuspecting decent people shouldn't have to read it when they are Mudcat readers.

It is also reasonable to piss myself laughing at your ludicrous thought that the new Pope agrees with you in respect of what needs to happen in society.

Now, where's that wormhole?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 11:27 AM

Ian, this forum is not all about you.....or me.

Your little quips are becoming very boring. Try to understand that your idiotic insults and name calling actually work in my interests, but the rest of the membership are getting fed up listening to YOU, YOu you!!!

Do us all a favour and go formulate some sort of reasonable response to my stance, I will happily debate with you, providing you keep it civil.

Continually repeating your belief in equality under a system which is build on the propagation of inequality, just doesn't cut it.....does it Ian?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 04:30 AM

Fair enough. I happily drink and laugh with people whom I just don't peer into their views. If they come out, I normally say I don't talk bollocks on a Friday / whenever and remind them my glass is empty and won't fill itself. Deflect rather than alter opinion of people who, to be fair, share my love of chewing the fat over a drink.

Problem is, I very much doubt I have a philosophy beyond Sheffield Wednesday and pork scratchings. Oh, add the search for the perfect Pinot I suppose, and music has to feature in there somewhere. Who knows Joe? I might be asking questions regarding other's philosophy in order to develop my own? About time I grew up, now I'm a granddad and all that.

I doubt I will learn much from Akenhateon's philosophy though. Overthrow of democracy and rounding up of people I don't understand doesn't fit with the image somehow. Also, if I have a low opinion of someone, I tend to know something about them. I doubt our resident worm has had the chance to know anything about every gay person in the world prior to judging them.

And still we allow stereotyping hatred to be published here. If anyone is offended by what I type it is because they have said something here on Mudcat that I am challenging so might expect it. I doubt any gay member deserves to read what he not only puts but fails to apologise for.

Ok. I happily offend Sheffield United fans whether I know them or not. But those buggers deserve it....

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 04:20 AM

If we are serious in wanting to get rid of Capitalism and build a society which can sustain itself and provide purpose for all, I have come to the conclusion that an element of spirituality will be required.

If the planet and humanity are simply resources to be used and abused, we are doomed to failure.

Primitive societies saw themselves as guardians of the natural world, not owners.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 04:17 AM

Joe, my remark was not meant as a complaint about authoritarian attitudes. I was simply observing that using the word "capitalism" in ethics can be misleading. Pope Francis did so in an interview, but was well advised not to repeat it in his pastoral letter.

Ethics on economics has two distinct aspects. The first is that individuals should not behave unfairly even if it is legal. Secondly, those who determine economical systems and laws (and those who elect them) should strive for justice, both in theory and in practical effects, not relying on all other people being fair and just. The technical details must be left to political and social sciences, for which being the pope is no credential.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 04:03 AM

Aw, Musket, I think you're basing your judgment on ideology, and I don't put much stock in ideology myself. I suppose I have my own ideology and sometimes I think my thoughts are quite profound, but I try to keep that in check and train myself to appreciate the thoughts of others - and to like people for who they are, not for their ideology.

And so, despite his ideology and despite yours, I like you both.

So, there.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: GUEST,musket giggling
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 01:26 AM

Ah the fog clears.

When the worm behind Akenhateon keeps rattling on about being a socialist, I wondered where he picked the word up from. . He obviously means national socialist. Which, I suppose, fits in with his condemnation of gays, travellers and "liberals. " I was still giggling at his last post after I had moved on to reality for the day.

Poor bloody Pope. He makes reasonable observations in order to ask people to examine their conscience and wannabe little Hitlers reckon he is speaking to them too.

Still reckon I'm wrong in my opinion of the small minded little fool then Joe? Is it arrogance to denounce the likes of him?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 06:49 PM

....Pope Francis... has been very clear in saying some things that make conservative Catholics very uncomfortable.

Deo gratius, Joe, Deo gratius. And long overdue.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 06:24 PM

I wonder if "authority" is the right word, Grishka. I think that the popular view of "papal authority," may be far broader than the popes themselves see it. John Paul II was a victim of his Slavic maleness and tended to be on the authoritarian side. Other than JPII, the last pope we had who was impressed with his own authority was Pius X, who reigned 1903-1914; and the authoritarian pope before him was the notorious Pius IX (Pio Nono), who reigned 1846-1878. John Paul reigned 26 years and Pio Nono 31, so they had plenty of time to build power structures.

From my point of view, it seems it was Pius IX who built the myth of "Papal Authority" during his long reign. He lost authority as a civil ruler when the Papal States became part of Italy in 1870. Pius IX dramatically became a self-imposed "prisoner of the Vatican," and the popes did not leave the Vatican until the concordat with Mussolini in 1929. During the First Vatican Council (1869-70), papal infallibility was proclaimed, and the heresy of "modernism" was condemned (one professor told me that modernism was a shopping list of things Pius IX didn't like).

What remains of "Papal Authority" is an interesting phenomenon. It's a big thing for conservative Catholics, who believe it's an essential part of their faith that they obey the wishes of the Pope. However, their perception of the Pope's wishes, is often very distorted, and often seems to be a reflection of their own aims and their own need to condemn the private conduct of other people. They're having a real problem with Pope Francis, because he has been very clear in saying some things that make conservative Catholics very uncomfortable.

I think that Francis simply wants to be a credible voice in the discussion, and sees his authority only in his responsibility to clean up the messes that have been made in the past. I don't think people realized that Benedict also sought discussion more than authority.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 06:54 AM

Economic systems are not a pope's field of authority. Pope Francis and many other religious leaders are quite right to remind us that "the Market" is no excuse for irresponsible or malicious activities, and that material property must not be confused with value.

Ethics are about curbing human selfishness, political economics must find out how to deal with it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 09:51 PM

I don't really think the Fourth Reich is quite what Pope Francis has in mind. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 06:28 AM

I also applaud Pope Francis for his attack on the Capitalist system, It's just amazing that some people here don't seem to understand what he is saying

Centre "liberals" have kept the system on the rails for decades, by telling folks that THEIR champion could fix it.
It cant be fixed!.....and Francis was saying so very clearly, you either use a system that has found greener fields to plough, with all the negatives that are becoming glaringly obvious, or you scrap it and find something better.
No one can do that overnight, but a start must be made, there is no other option and Francis has put the church right in the front line.

The best thing that has happened in Christianity, since Jesus threw the bankers out of the temple!! :0)

Sideshows and smokescreens like homosexual "marriage" will become irrelevant when the REAL battle starts.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 13 - 10:37 PM

I'm not Catholic, but--

I like this new Pope!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Dec 13 - 08:27 PM

Here's an e-mail I got today from faithfulamerica.org:

Dear Faithful America member,

Rush Limbaugh is leading a new right-wing assault on Pope Francis, accusing him of "pure Marxism" for warning that the global financial system has failed the poor. On Fox and CNBC, hosts are accusing the pope of overstepping his bounds and "indulging in politics."

In the face of this absurd and extremist rhetoric, the American bishops have been uncharacteristically silent. When a reporter called the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops for comment, their spokesperson declined to say anything except "We don't follow Rush Limbaugh."

These same bishops haven't hesitated to criticize progressive politicians and media figures over abortion and gay marriage, but when it comes to promoting the pope's teachings on social and economic justice, they're nowhere to be found.

So today we're launching a new petition asking the bishops to condemn Limbaugh's statement and clarify their support for Pope Francis's opposition to "the new idolatry of money."

It's clear to me, that Pope Francis makes Timothy Cardinal Dolan and a lot of U.S. bishops nervous. The American bishops have been in bed with the far right for far too long, and they have alienated many of us Catholics who consider ourselves "moderate" or "liberal." It's good to see the bishops squirm...

The primary tenet of Catholic conservatism is absolute and unquestioning obedience to the Pope - according to their perception of what the Pope is saying. Unfortunately for them, this pope is speaking a bit too clearly, and they're getting worried. Pope Benedict said more-or-less the same thing, but not with such clarity.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 13 - 05:42 PM

This thread has wandered far from the original subject and has long since passed its "Sell By" date. It's grown positively rancid!

Arguing with brick walls is fruitless, so I'm spending my effort in working on the issue in the real world.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 13 - 05:02 PM

For God's sake, keefenache, you both sound like minnows attempting and failing to gnaw away at a blue whale's bum. Wottapair of losers! Get out while the going's shit but not as shit as it could be! :-) Tosseratissima!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 13 - 03:32 PM

You chose to deny HPA figures.
You said it was outdated.
LIE.
You said it was "superseded" by an "interim report".
LIES.
It was a final report on the 2012 figures and only published a couple of weeks ago.
You said you had the interim report, and that other bodies produced different figures.
LIES.
You could not produce a single one.

You previously accused me of trying to make a "cunt" of you, otherwise I would not use such a word.
I do not try.
You do it all by yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 07 Dec 13 - 01:10 PM

Akenhateon said that gay porn was shown by scientists to men, checked to see if they got erections and scientists deduced that gay lifestyle was abnormal as a result.

Ha Ha.

Keith grabbed a set of figures that have been adjusted and uses words such as liar and cunt to describe people who point out how they are used and when services are wary of them. He then says that others should point out that the figures adjustment are insignificant to the argument. Perhaps he should read my posts then. Fed up of saying it, it doesn't sink in, till he says it himself and defies others to say it err.. A couple of days after they did.

Ha Ha.

If you both wish to smear people, find someone who would be affected by it will you? I don't lie. Perhaps you two don't either, but your ignorance shines through. Statistics are dangerous enough without incompetent buffoons using them put of context. Mind you, Akenhateon tells some whoppers. Mostly in order to smear whole sections of society. Or to tell us he is a socialist or some such nonsense.

I may not know anything of Akenhateon's stature, but I have worked out his status; bigoted little shit.

Perhaps you two should get a room. You could sit and work out new ways of being preposterous.

Ha Ha.

Etc.

zzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 13 - 08:59 AM

Truth....For example Ian, "those gay porn videos you are always talking about"   that is a lie and a deliberate smear(among many)

What I did say, was that "scientists have conducted studies to help determine sexual orientation", which has a quite different connotation. I have never mentioned, nor know anything about "gay porn movies". You on the other hand have used the phrase several times over the last few days on different threads.
I don't know if any conclusions can be drawn from that or not. Perhaps you are more familiar with such "entertainment"?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 13 - 08:33 AM

Musket, if you were not lying you would paste up something from some body supporting your claim.
You can not do that because there is none.
You were wrong and chose to lie about it.

Any normal person would acknowledge the slight inaccuracy, point out how insignificant it was, and say that it did not change the argument.

You chose to lie, hoping to save face.
Instead you have made a cunt of yourself again.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 13 - 08:26 AM

My God Ian, You sure love making a fool of yourself.

Do you think it helps your case to call others "little men", "worms", or sneer at other members who are trying to assist in keeping the discussion truthful.
You have been caught lying several times, therefore your posts need to be carefully scrutinised.
Keith has no axe to grind here, but he likes to see accuracy in anything presented as fact.
Regarding "little men"...you have no idea of my stature, or you would not make such a comment. I may be over retiring age, but I still do a hard manual job daily and am fit and strong.
Try to control yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 07 Dec 13 - 07:23 AM

I have explained how figures are derived. I have pointed to some of the sources should anyone be interested in knowing which datasets are used by The NHS . I have also explained why many published statistics are subjective and why we pay consultants in public health to interpret and advise accordingly.

Nothing to add really. I support and advise1.3 million liars it seems.

Nice to see the worm expanding his awful thesis to the point of suggesting the actual work could be outsourced. Presumably we can outsource testing for heterosexual sexual infections to knocking shops. I love the bit about when starting new relationships.. Very romantic! Not to mention presumptuous.....

Presumably the 99.9% (of the 68% of gay men) who have sex with condoms need to be on your register too? And the celibate men?

After all, if you didn't include the vast majority of gay men, the ones who are not at risk of infection that is, how can you achieve your real aim of a list of all gay men for your horrid purposes? Incidentally, those gay porn movies you keep talking about? I hear the actors show each other certificates before lubricating up. A pity then not every gay bloke is an actor eh? Supply and demand and all that, your videos would be cheaper for you and your scientist friends to buy.

Worm, you know where to crawl, I shouldn't need to keep reminding you.




Keith. If you must use big words, note the rather significant difference between the antiretrovirals men and women are offered when HIV+ and the rather interesting retrovirals you just said. Probably supplied in '70s style pill bottles.....

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 13 - 05:49 AM

He meant diagnoses rise, so there are fewer untreated.
They become less infectious when on retrovirals.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 13 - 05:41 AM

Don't understand what Ian means about wishing to see STD rates RISE?

The rest of his post is the usual waffle.....the hands of a drowning man waving in the air.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 13 - 05:36 AM

Joe, the ONLY way to reduce the incidence of STD amongst male homosexuals, is to cut transmission rates drastically.

The MSM demographic should be targeted with more frequent testing and contact tracing. As Keith has mentioned, the agencies are looking at an "opt out" system, where MSM will be routinely tested, unless they specifically refused to allow it.
Their hands are of course tied by human rights and anti discrimination legislation, which in this case is working against the interests of male homosexuals.

Personally, I think that more should be done by homosexuals themselves to defeat this epidemic and have suggested a voluntary register, which could be run by Ian's friends in Stonewall.
All active male homosexual would volunteer to be tested perhaps four times a year or whenever starting a new sexual relationship.
My main point being, that before long, for MSM NOT to be tested would become socially unacceptable within their own circle, just as smoking in public and drunk driving has become socially unacceptable in mainstream society.

I think that male homosexuals need to be seen to be willing to help themselves, before this dreadful health problem can be properly addressed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 13 - 04:17 AM

I can not find it and do not believe you.
You said HPA was wrong on new diagnoses 2012 (51%).
Show us a body that supports your claim, or is it a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: GUEST,musket again
Date: 07 Dec 13 - 03:45 AM

I would like to see them rise.

Also, as the dataset doesn't reflect primary presentation, cardinal /FCE rate or co morbidity, I would also wish to see HPA be more careful with their figures. Their adjustments indicate their acknowledgement of increasingly better coding by trusts.

If they were, you would see the worm's stance look even more in his favour.

But you would also see the full story. So I repeat.

I would like to see the figures rise and The NHS is working hard to get those numbers up.

Keith could find all this with his Google toy if he wished. The worm could at least look at the pretty pictures.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Dec 13 - 12:45 AM

But Ake, how would you reduce STDs among homosexuals? I think that's the primary question your data raises.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 13 - 08:22 PM

On the other hand, the Catholic Church has very good, wise, and compassionate things to say about immigration, poverty, peace, the rights of workers, capital punishment, and a number of social issues.

Yes, I know. I fully acknowledge that, whilst at the same time keeping a sharp and suspicious eye on motivations (I would, though, wouldn't I?). By their fruits shall ye know them, sayeth the Lord, and he never said a wiser word.

However, you say that some of the Church's positions on sexuality are very good. Well, maybe. But the Church does not have women priests or bishops, does not allow priests to marry and has a dreadful take on abortion and contraception, matters that imprison women, and it still treats gay people as inferior beings, to be discussed in judgemental terms and to be allowed minor concessions with a sorry shake of the head. The Church, from where I'm standing, has shed very little of its misogynistic and homophobic past. It has a long way to go, and progress is grindingly and painfully slow.


.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 13 - 06:33 PM

Ian, even working with your "home made" figures, the new infection rates amongst male homosexuals are massively higher than any other demographic, in every STD, and in every country which conducts surveys of this issue.

All you have to do is explain why, to break even.
Stop waffling and answer the bloody question.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Dec 13 - 04:39 PM

Steve, I agree that in many ways, the Catholic Church has a (still) antediluvian attitude to sexuality. Therefore, I generally disregard what they have to say about sex, and make my own decisions about my own sex life. If you look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church and see how the church itself words its positions on such issues, you will see that it is worded thoughtfully, factually, and dispassionately, and certainly not in the authoritarian way one might think would come from the Vatican. Some of the ideas on sexuality are, in fact, very good; and some I disagree with. It's certainly not presented in the hysterical way that you and musket and Stringsinger describe.

But you're right, the Catholic Church has a (still) antediluvian attitude to sexuality.

On the other hand, the Catholic Church has very good, wise, and compassionate things to say about immigration, poverty, peace, the rights of workers, capital punishment, and a number of social issues.

I know that it is in vogue to completely discount and disregard any group or individual that has views in any area that the speaker disagrees with, but I think that's bigotry. I try to look for the good wherever I go, and I find it. I disregard or step around what I disagree with, or work to resolve the disagreement if I can find a way.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 13 - 01:24 PM

YOU said my figure quoted from HPA was wrong.
YOU said it was out of date and superseded.
So, YOU produce any reputable source to justify YOUR figure or admit you got it wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Dec 13 - 10:36 AM

Before asking someone who says HPA are wrong and they are right, first find someone who said it, prat.

I said their data is one of a number of data sets used to form the picture. Their data is based on returns from commissioning returns. See www.hpa.org.uk for details.

Search HSJ if you must under public health. Or this governments rationale for the quango bonfire. Or see what The academy of Royal Colleges or NICE have to say about trusting arbitrary statistics. Howsabout The BMA and their take on clinical planning based on single source statistics. As much evidence as you wish. Even, if you must be lazy, the link I gave you was intranet, for which I apologise, I forget my Athens gets me in them. There will be the internet version by now if you care to look.

See? Why should I take you seriously when I keep saying a) the HPA data is fairly close to the picture directors of public health use, but not quite accurate enough for the people I work with. b) There is an issue with numbers of infections but the rest of the health worries of the country put these in perspective regarding action and the figures are used in isolation by groups, many religious ones in that, to push a homophobic agenda. c) You read something and throw it in the face of others, regardless of subject. If a government agency says so, it must be. Well it is, but allowing for errors. Errors that are catered for in the service commissioning data that pays for healthcare, which iI have to use each and every day.

I expect better than that from first year post grad management trainees, let alone the worlds leading expert on cutting and pasting and shouting with the text in his hand.

Zzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 13 - 10:12 AM

As far as I can see, your dogmatic but ill informed take serves only anti gay agendas.

Not ill-informed.
Informed by HPA.

If you have a better source, produce it.
Meanwhlile stop lying and smearing with accusations of "right wing politics" "support for political parties" and homophobic agenda."

You are the one who put up the stats.
I just corrected them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 13 - 10:07 AM

If you are claiming to be right and HPA wrong do not expect to be believed.

At least produce some reputable source to corroborate your claim, or admit you were wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: GUEST,musket
Date: 06 Dec 13 - 08:30 AM

Please write to Jeremy Hunt then and tell him to save money.

The most authoritive data we have is held by regional directors of public health. They use the statistics available from NRLS, HRG returns, ONS and HPA, as well as local data from providers.

One reason why HPA was first being abolished then brought down in scale was the data integrity issue, which relied on coding by NHS bodies. Its role in public protection and coordination of notifiable disease remains in their brief. For now. For what it's worth, just before the government tried putting it on the quango bonfire, stupid liar Musket wasIinterviewed for the chair. Didn't get it, but at least was shortlisted. Read about HPA and data integrity if you want. HSJ and BMJ tend to be the best sources. The same issue brought about the much publicised Keogh investigations into mortality. Coding leads to SHMI data being unreliable. Oh, , and this is about thousands of deaths per month, not a national figure of a couple of thousand non fatal infections.

Which is why the homophobic agenda is so so obvious.

I'm involved with two Dept of Health bodies that are funded by them yet have totally different figures derived from the same sources, advising the exact opposite view. (Foundation Trust Network and NHS Confederation with regard to "any qualified provider" issues . Your assertion that funded bodies are authoritive is as laughable as it is inaccurate.

I don't usually have much time for government but ours doesn't stuff advisory bodies with agreeing toadys. Healthcare is far more important than that. Which is why I am privileged to be able to help with structures that professionals can work within.

Which is why your arguments are a poor imitation of the shroud waving consultants queuing up outside my office. Their concerns however are more open and more genuine. As far as I can see, your dogmatic but ill informed take serves only anti gay agendas.

And that can't go unchallenged.   Joe may be happy to discuss second class citizens but I won't, can't even.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 13 - 08:30 AM

Aargh, not soft-soaping. Wrong expression. I meant "gentle indulgence of...", which is not what soft-soaping means... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 13 - 07:58 AM

Well, Steve, it looks to me like you just like to fight, and have no desire to carry on any sort of rational discussion. If you want to discuss things, you give the other person the benefit of the doubt, and seek some sort of exchange of ideas and common ground.
But apparently, you are unable or unwilling to do that.

[Suggested translator's note: Steve refuses to acquiesce in Joe's soft-soaping of the Catholic Church's (still) antediluvian attitude to sexuality. Therefore Steve must be wrong.]

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 13 - 07:47 AM

HPA is the most authoritative source of primary data we have.

Your stats were inaccurate according to HPA.

If you are claiming to be right and HPA wrong do not expect to be believed.

I merely corrected the stats YOU put up to further YOUR agenda.
Why do you object, and why did you tell lies?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Dec 13 - 07:37 AM

They weren't inaccurate, but if you feel data that hasn't been refined yet is the only one you can find, it's a bit silly arguing with you. As I said before, healthcare professionals even, when lobbying for their particular field find credible statistics and draw earth shattering conclusions from them. The public health observatory, which forms the bedrock of commissioning decisions doesn't employ data readers, it employs consultants in public health, in some ways the intellectual cream of the crop (if you ask them) or autistic (if you ask other doctors....) They form the source of the data that is used. I see that my link is to the HPA intranet, but the data should be on the internet site. Your comment that needle users formed only 120 people is exactly my point. Needle exchange works, and needs to carry on being funded. (The figure is sadly somewhat higher, as the headline figures don't account for either root cause, index patient nor co morbidity, just number trawl from commissioning data, which is why HPA isn't used on its own for planning healthcare, and why it is being shrunk back, allowing Public Health England and similar new bodies in the rest of The UK to be the source of epidemiological data, as healthcare planning, from political aspiration to budget setting in commissioning is based on their advice to CCGs and health authorities.

Civil enough for you?

Worm.

What morality?   Is being gay a moral issue?   Unless you can show it is, I fail to see why it should be discussed? If you wish to put forward a moral argument for increasing healthcare spending based on lifestyle choices, I suggest you add in heterosexual polygamy, tobacco, alcohol, Glasgow and branches of Gregs. Take out polygamous gay sex and you still have 99% of the argument left to play with.

Civil enough for Joe?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 13 - 06:01 AM

You put up the statistics Musket.
They were relevant but inaccurate.
I just corrected them for you.