Lets Talk Native American Flutes

Subject: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: lloyd61
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 12:01 AM

Lets Talk Native American Flutes.

My knowledge is very limited, but I will try and start things out.

There seams to be two types, a five hole Diatonic and six 6 hole Chromatic flute. A Chromatic can become a Diatonic flute by covering the last hole.

I was told, by a flute maker, Tim Minton, of Lindsy OK, that the true Native Flute is a Diatonic flute but "The White man wants to play Amazing Grace so he needs a Chromatic flute". How did he know I wanted to place Amazing Grace?

Tom Minto makes a "Reed Flute" that really sings. That little flute is my favorite.

Other Flute makers are Paul Thompson of Albuquerque NM, George Taylor of Las Vagas. , and Funmaker (Think That's his name) of Minnesota.

I have found that some are harder to play than others, I'm not sure why, they seam to have a mind of there own.

The sound of any of them is truly magic, I can quite down the most unruly children with a flute. I wish I would have known this when my children were young.

Some place I have a little song book for a Diatonic flute, If anyone is interested I'll try and dig it out.

Subject: RE: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 12:11 AM

LLoyd, I don't know any of the technical stuff about them, but I do know that they have a very healing aspect to them and, you're right, they can really calm a person down. They sing to my soul and heart. I use them when counseling friends and family when they are upset. I don't play cause I gave mine to my neice, but I have some wonderful tapes. My favourite is John Rainer, Jr; then Coyote Oldman; then early Carlos Nakai, before he started cluttering up the sound with other people.

My mom used to get a faraway dreamy look in her eyes with a kind of wistful smile whenever she heard one played. I expect she felt the same kinds of deep connections to the earth and all creation like I do when hearing them.

When are you going to send Max a tape, so we can all hear you on Mudcat Radio? And, have you made a tape for your grandkid-to-be? when my daughter had her twins, I bought them a little nursery tape player and some good music tapes. When nothing else would calm them down or when mom and dad were exhausted or whatever, the music always worked. They still, at 17 months, do not go to sleep without some music on for a few minutes.

Good thread, Lloyd, thanks.

kat

Subject: RE: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: lloyd61
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 10:46 PM

Kat...it looks like we are the only ones interest in the subject. Some time I'll send you a tape of the my "Tom Minto's" Diatonic flute. I have a very old Panwee drum that is played along with it. It is a wedding drum, which has a story all in itself.

Subject: RE: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: jeffp
Date: 15 Nov 99 - 11:04 AM

Kat and Lloyd: you are not the only ones with an interest in Native American flutes. I have a beautiful cedar flute that I purchased a couple of years ago at a "powwow" in Maryland. I seems to stimulate me to improvise in musical forms other than the ones which I am used to. I normally play R&R and traditional Irish music (now there's a combination for you), and the NA flute seems to help me relax and just get into the flow of the heart-music connection.

Subject: RE: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: paddymac
Date: 15 Nov 99 - 04:38 PM

Cedar flutes are indeed mesmerizing. It's my impression that in most tribal communities where they are found they are an important element in ceremonial events. I know that some individual flutes are considered sacred, but flutes, generally, are also used in non-ceremonial circumstances. Cedar wood itself is also considered sacred by many tribes. Cedar flutes have existed among north american tribes since long before the european influx, and hence were not "designed" to conform to the european musical system. There is probably a movement toward standardization of hole spacings among non-traditional flute makers, but in the old way, the spacings were usually simply "a finger's width", which resulted in different intervals among diffenent flute makers. If anyone is interested in delving deeper, send me a note and I'll direct you to more knowledgeable folks.

Subject: RE: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Nov 99 - 05:42 PM

Thanks, Paddymac.

Lloyd, I'd love to hear more baout that drum!

My flute was cedar, too. Beautiful, beautiful tones. here is a link to a Native American Culture site with scads of links to many, many tribes, folklore, languages, you name it, there's a link on there. I didn't have time to look it over for flutes specifically. I do have some other links to NA stuff to if anyone is interested.

Subject: RE: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: GUEST, Bob Bolton (at home ... leading towards mid
Date: 15 Feb 00 - 07:47 AM

G'day Lloyd, Kat, Jeff & Paddy,

I know this was a long time ago, but I'm going to refresh it anyway. I was interested (if quietly lurking) and the thread submerged. It raised a number of questions in my mind but did'n answer them.

Over the past months (since November, in fact) I have got back to flute/whistle making after a third of a century's quiet rest and I, inevitably, find myself looking at parallel traditions of simple instruments.

Lloyd speaks of the traditional Native American flutes (five-hole models) as diatonic ... and the six-hole ones for 'white men' as chromatic. I take this is a culturally applied re-definion, as diatonic to our Western culture means 7-note scales and that is what the 6-hole flute delivers. BTW: Amazing Grace (at least the way I play it) is actually hexatonic, using only 6 notes ... possibly not the same six as on the 5-hole flute?

Another question is about the use of North American timbers for these flutes. I have seen illustrations of radiitional instruments of North America with flutes or whistles of naturally hollow material: bone, reeds, bamboo &c.

I would imagine that making a flute bore in cedar would be a job for a lathe ... and a reasonably hard metal tool. Obsidian is marvellously sharp but brittle for such a job. Is the use of solid wood for flutes pre-Columbian? Or, is this an adaptation to post-European techniques?

The other question (more academic) is about scales and pitch. Did these flutes use the same intervals as Western music (albeit in a hexatonic or pentatonic gamut) or did they use some of the microtonic scales met with in Eastern Music - the ultimate source of some of their cultural pool?

I could not see a specific music/instruments link in the site linked by Kat, but maybe I missed it. I suspect the music played in the background used familiar intervals, since I did't find it atonal, let alone microtonic.

Anyway, I hope to see a few replies in this area. It isn't my territory, but I find the music that has distilled for centuries in a simple musical range to be fascinating ... and very instructive in an age when we just keep piling in more elements unti nobody knows what to listen for.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: Amos
Date: 15 Feb 00 - 09:42 AM

I have a cedar flute made by a Native American (I do not know what group) who for a while ran a shop in the mountain town of Idyllwild, California.

It has what Ithink is being referred to as diatonic intervals, but the designer added an extra hole which when covered allowed the player to fill in the Western chromatic scale. I hope I am using these terms correctly (!).

It is tuned by sliding a hand-carved totem over the air slot above the holes and securing the totem (a wolf-like figure) in place with a leather thong. It makes the most other-worldly, beautiful sounds.

Although I haven't mastered it fully, I did use it for a house exorcism on ournew home a few years ago -- we had a party of people armed with noisemakers and instruments wandering from room to room, blessing all the spaces in the house with invocations from a wacky medicine woman friend of ours. Hey, this is Southern California, man! :>)) It was a lark, but the cedar flute really made its presence felt.

A

Subject: RE: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: folk1234
Date: 15 Feb 00 - 09:44 AM

Lloyd: Are you in OK? There is a very talented NA flute maker in Ada. His name is Jesse Contrares. I have three of his flutes and play them (for myself) from time to time. Jesse's flutes are made from cedar, cypress, and other woods. I can't remember what mine are made of. I do think one is cypress. Jesse does some wonderful wood carving and also makes totems of bone and gem stone to attach to the flutes.
My wife bought the first one for me primarily for the art work. Jesse, however, would not allow one to buy a flute without at least undergoing one or more playing lessons. He's a wonderful person and truly dedicated to Native American culture.
If you're in OK maybe we can get together. Are you familiar with the OKC Traditional Music Assn, I'm very active in OCTMA, and we get together each month for music and workshops.

Subject: RE: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: Crowhugger
Date: 15 Feb 00 - 09:44 AM

Can someone enlighten me please? Which notes in Amazing Grace fall outside the diatonic scale?

Subject: RE: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Feb 00 - 09:55 AM

Hi, Bob, thanks for bringing this back up. There are some new members who should be able to tell us even more.

Folk1234, do you have an address or something for Jesse Contrares that you would be willing to post for us? I am missing the one I gave to my neice and am thinking about getting another.

I have seen many sites listed in Yahoo, when doing a search a while back for these flutes. For some audio samples of some really beautiful playing by Keith Bear, click here, then scroll down to the list of songs and click one. The first one is my favourite.

I will post some other links, later, today. In the meantime, you might want to look at the recent thread on Native American Songs; a couple of us posted a lot of NA links on there.

Thanks, kat (w/a lower case "k", as there is anotehr "Kat" on here)

Subject: RE: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: folk1234
Date: 15 Feb 00 - 10:21 AM

Dear Laughing Kat:
I'll try to contact him and post contact info.

Subject: RE: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: MMario
Date: 15 Feb 00 - 11:05 AM

tape? I think plenty of people would be interested in hearing this on the MC radio....

Subject: RE: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: jeffp
Date: 15 Feb 00 - 02:51 PM

Bob was asking about construction methods. I believe that the flute is split, hollowed out in two sections with a wall between them, and then glued back together. There are holes on either side of the wall, joined at the point where they meet the exterior of the flute. This is called the "nest." On top of this sits the "bird." This is a fetish, usually carved into a bird shape, but not always (on mine it's a bear). The underside of the bird is hollowed out slightly and it directs the air coming up from the mouthpiece chamber across the hole leading to the sound chamber. This fulfills the same purpose as the fipple on a whistle. The bird is moveable to adjust the tone and volume of the flute. I hope this description is not too confusing. I have a book at home that gives some of the history and legends about the courting flute (a lovely name) and I will post some more information about it later.

jeffp

Subject: RE: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: dulcimer
Date: 15 Feb 00 - 09:49 PM

Don't know a whole lot about the topic, but I own a cane flute made by Michael Cochran of Elephant Butte, NM. His flutes go under the name Lone Wolf. He made more elaborate ones, but mine has a simple leather strip to hold a wood strip which determine size of air hole near the blowing ead. It has four hole evenly spaced near the bottom of the flute. I think he told me it was for the four elements or the four directions, but that it was traditional to place these four holes. He also said that 5 hole was more traditional, but he was willing to make me one with six. I think he said that one of the Five Civilized Tribes used the six hole, but not really typical of most tribes' flutes. Even so my flute is diatonic with a 1 1/2 step between the first and second hole. I haven't experimented much, but I think with a combination of figurings and half holing, starting at the 2nd hole, one can get a full chromatic scale.

Subject: RE: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 15 Feb 00 - 10:51 PM

G'day all,

Thanks for the great response; I was surprised when the thread died out before (and realised I should have got involved then, but my current flute making obsession hadn't reached fever pitch).

Amos: I had seen 19th century illustrations of such a flute, but the steel engraving didn't give me enough clues as to material and texture, so I took it for a straight bamboo or a heavy reed. The flute in this cut appeared to have the carven figure of the fore-parts of a horse forming the windcutter, so it must have come from one of the Plains tribes.

jeffp: Your description of the construction is plain to me and explains how they would make such a hardwood flute without recourse to a lathe or steel cutting tools. I should have thought of that approach myself, as I have used it to make 'solid' wood sheaths for belt knives, covering the reassembled and glued timber with a hand-sewn outer layer of (wet) leather that shrinks tight. The technique is also used in India and was probably the common answer to this problem in non-industrial societies.

Crowhugger: "...Which notes in Amazing Grace fall outside the diatonic scale?" None - as I see it, but the terms diatonic and chromatic obviously have different weights in different cultures.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 12:53 AM

That's the way my modern cedar one was made also, but I think, way back when, they also burnt them out. I've seen that done for a drum. Don't know if a flute would be too small in diameter to do that accurately or not. Long process.

Here is a link to a site with some history of the courting flutes and images. I have some of the courting songs on John Rainer's tapes. Beautiful music.

Really glad you brought this back, Bob.

Mitakuye Oyasin (we are all related/one)

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: GUEST, Bob Bolton's alter computus
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 01:55 AM

G'day kat,

I looked at the Love Flutes site and found it fascinating. Jim Taylor's fuzzy pic of the full flute is quite like the 19th century steel engraving, but it shows the bands wound round the flute. It has the samw conical mouthpiece and sliding "bird" figure.

I still puzzled about the fingering, since (like the steel engraving) it seems to have only some holes around the far end - at least I can't see anything like the row of holes on a whistle or fife - or several other Native American flutes in other pix. The end holes would work in a 'vessel flute' - a wooden ocarina, but not in a cylindrical one ...? I notise that Jim taylor's flutes can be either.

Reagrds,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: GUEST,Scotsbard
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 02:34 PM

For those of you near either Victoria BC Geographic Museum or Chicago's Field Museum, there are some excellent exhibits of instruments built by Pacific Coast peoples.

I don't remember all of the different permutations of flutes, but most of them had fixed fipples. Many seemed to be carved from a single length of cedar, and often with intricate animal figurings. The resonant chambers included everything from simple closed cavities to ocarina to single and even some double fingered tubes.

The tuning probably varied widely, given the many different hole and cavity geometries. Some of the recorded sounds from the more complex instruments had amazingly strong sub-resonant tones.

It's well worth a visit.

~S~

Subject: RE: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: GUEST, Bob Bolton ('s home computer)
Date: 18 Feb 00 - 01:57 AM

Thanks Scotsbard,

Unfortunately there is not much chance to see actual North American flutes here in Sydney (although North American Indian drums and beads seem popular in the New Age shops - pehaps I just need to look around these and keep my eyes open).

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Lets Talk Native American Flutes
From: Crowhugger
Date: 18 Feb 00 - 08:04 AM

Thanks Bob Bolton. It's just that someone had mentioned it, and as I hummed it out, all notes fell within both diatonic and pentatonic scales. So that particular post (way up there somewhere) left me confused.