BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'

Subject: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 04:24 AM

In an article on the PC aspects of standing to offer a seat to a pregnant woman in the current Spectator, Rod Liddle wrote

"it is right to give a pregnant woman a seat on a bus, or a train, isn't it? Just as you'd give up your seat for a raspberry, or a very old person, no?"

My question is simply, what does he mean here by "raspberry"? Looking up slang & "Urban" dictionaries have produced only the obvious, well-known, one of "fart", rhyming slang from "raspberry tart"; + one suggestion of "nipple", also rhyming slang from "raspberry ripple"[an ice-cream flavour, in case anyone didn't know]. But neither of these seem to make sense in Liddle's context as quoted above. So what did he mean by "a raspberry" there?

Anyone help, please?

Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: fat B****rd
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 05:04 AM

It's bad taste rhyming slang for 'cripple'.

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 05:12 AM

Ah ~~ thank you, FB.

& thanks to Mudcat, which comes up trumps yet again to provide a quick answer!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 05:52 AM

Just in case anyone (maybe not in UK) is still mystified, it's short for 'raspberry ripple' (a kind of ice-cream). Unacceptable and not PC today. Rhyming slang used to be confined to the east end of London, but is used in quite a large radius of the capital now, not just by true Cockneys.

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 12:29 PM

That sort of 3-level coded slang IS totally mystifying to anyone who doesn't follow & keep up with it as it develops. Remember, every strange use has to be 'composed' by someone and then propagated by others who agree to the details AND feel it worthy.
I suppose I can see it serving a purpose within certain cultural communities, but I never cease to marvel at visitors & ex-pats from the UK who come to the US and feel that they should tell various stories and recite rhymes using Cockney slang and explain it to us. The concept is moderately interesting, but most audiences here just go "huh?"

I never ever quite understood why a vocal "thbbbbtt" to signify displeasure ever got the name 'raspberry' over here!...

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 12:32 PM

At the risk of boring you by explaining, Bill, a raspberry tart is a fart, which is the sound you describe.

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 12:48 PM

LOL Eliza...I should have seen that one without help....

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 12:50 PM

My dictionary says it comes from 'rasp,' to belch. Also to see RAZZ and RAZOO, which I'm not going to bother to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 12:56 PM

Bill Bryson says (in his excellent book Mother Tongue) that the English have always loved wordplay, slang and puns etc, maybe because we've had so many influxes of people from abroad over the millenia. It's made us look at language with interest and appreciation. It hasn't however made us good linguists, as I know to my cost when trying to teach French to schoolchildren in Norfolk. Their strategy for communicating with foreigners was just to shout even louder in English! (As if they're 'mutton' - there you are, Bill, another one for you to figure out!)

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 01:05 PM

" Their strategy for communicating with foreigners was just to shout even louder in English!

Jean Redpath used to do a little story about languages & accents incolving a Scottish lady waiting for a bus.... then she'd finish with the rhetorical question,"Did you ever notice that if you have a strong accent, people tend to shout at you s-l-o-w-l-y?"

hmmm... mutton- sheep...dumb as? See what I mean? ☺

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 02:14 PM

IIRC, it's "mutton and beef" = "deef" -- an archaic provincial pronunciation of "deaf"*...


Is that right, Eliza?

~M~

*(... also an American usage in certain quarters: I seem to remember Jim, Huck's escaped slave companion in Huckleberry Finn, weeping over the recollection of having punished his daughter for failing to respond to him, and then finding out that "she was plumb deef and dumb, Huck - plumb deef and dumb!")

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 02:43 PM

Middle English deef. Now heard humorously in U. S.; but it seems to have had rural usage in the 19th c.

Merriam Webster's Dictionary uses the rhyming slang raspberry tart = fart, so not as polite as the dictionary leeneia quotes.

I remember my grandmother using mutton for dumb, so it had some usage in the U. S., but seems to have disappeared.

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 03:13 PM

Mutton for deaf is surely nothing to do with mutton and bef.Isn't it from the old Mutt'n'Jeff cartoon?

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 03:14 PM

should be beef!

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 03:49 PM

It's always been Mutt 'n Jeff in my neck of the woods as a child. I've learned a lot of this rhyming slang from the prison inmates I visited. One taught me baked beans (jeans) and brown bread (dead) Most modern rhyming slang uses just the first word of the two. eg a Ruby for a curry, Bristols for boobs etc. (I do hope all this isn't boring Bill to death!) :)

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 04:33 PM

A guy came up to me at a noisy party recently and said "Ah, you're Beckie's dad, blah blah blah blah." I said "You'll have to repeat that last bit, I'm mutt'n'jeff." He replied "Hi Jeff, I'm Bill."
True story.

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 05:18 PM

Ah, Mutt'n'Jeff. OK!

Have often wondered why boobs should be Bristols ["Bristol Cities - titties"]; from the football team Bristol City. But we have many teams called Something City [Cardiff City, Swansea City, Manchester City, Cambridge City, Exeter City, Leicester City, Birmingham City, Bradford City, Norwich City, &c]. So why Bristols, particularly? Why not Exeters or Bradfords?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 05:45 PM

MheGM did you realise what a fantastic pun that was when you posted
"Mudcat, which comes up trumps"

Still sniggering

Gerry

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 08:23 PM

I always believed it right to give up my seat for any woman, on the principle that for all I knew they might be pregnant. But now they give up their seats to me, because I am undoubtedly old enough to make it appropriate. Fair enough.

And they generally are young women who offer their seats, not young men, apart from Polish young men.

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 09:42 PM

well... I read Mutt & Jeff all thru my younger years, but never realized it was popular in the UK. I NEVER would have tumbled to that one. I use old Mutt & Jeff cartoons for educational purposes to explain philosophical and logical concepts.

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 11:36 PM

Sorry, Gerry: doubtless being a right thicko, but do not get my alleged pun...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 03:53 AM

Hi MtheGM Raspberry=fart sound,Fart=trump(UK)

Gerry

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 05:22 AM

Ah, yes, thanks Gerry ; from the 'blast of a trumpet' meaning ~~ including the last one which, according to St Paul, as stated in 1 Corinthians 15

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised

will bring everything to an end.

T S Eliot said 'This is the way the world ends ... Not with a bang but a whimper'. But it appears he should have said 'with a fart'!

It must be true.! It's in The Bible!

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 05:31 AM

There's a lovely sketch by Ronnie Barker (from "The Two Ronnies") where he's a vicar preaching a sermon using mock Cockney rhyming slang. He waxes lyrical about the perils of stepping on a "Richard the Third" all through the sermon - and then reveals at the end it's actually a bird he's been talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 06:33 AM

I wonder if it could now include a Raspberry Pi? You could refer to someone who fancies men and women as being Raspberry. Or you could wear a Raspberry round your neck.

I'll just get my coat...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 06:33 AM

I always understood that a curry is called a "Ruby" because curry rhymes with 'Ruby Murray' - a long forgotten British singer from the 1950s.

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 09:29 AM

Yes, Shimrod, Ruby Murray, now shortened to a Ruby. I bet hardly anyone remembers her these days!

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 09:35 AM

Speaking of 'trump', my old dad used to get very cross at the table if one of us inadvertently passed wind. He'd always bellow, "Who's trumped?" When the song Nellie the Elephant became popular and was played on the radio, my daft sister and I would be hysterical with suppressed giggles at the line, "Off she went with a trumpety trump, trump! trump! trump!" We'd end up crying with laughter, and our father used to have to smack both our bottoms to sober us up.

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 06:31 PM

Very often words we use without thinking are from rhyming slang, with the origins and the rhyme being long forgotten. For example when you call someone a berk, it's very unlikely you are thinking about the Berkshire Hunt. When we say 'use your loaf' we probably aren't thinking about 'loaf of bread', and hence 'head'.

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 01:01 AM

In interests of accuracy, Kevin ~~ Berkeley Hunt ("a foxhound pack in the west of England. Its country lies in
Gloucestershire and South Gloucestershire, between Gloucester and Bristol.)"

Tallyho

~M~ OLP

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 05:26 AM

Very true, McGrath. Such as 'on your Tod' (Tod Sloane, thus, 'on your own') 'load of old cobblers' (cobblers' awls, balls), the Oxo (Oxo cube, the Tube, the London Underground) 'I should cocoa' (coffee and cocoa, I should say so) to name but a few. All these were used by us as children in Middlesex, far from the East End. And I learned dozens from prisoners, who were happy to teach me!
Michael, you made me smile. Wouldn't it be funny if a young lady was admired for her perky Norwiches?
By the way, 'raspberries' are also nipples. (raspberry ripples in the plural) Those prisoners held nothing back!

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 06:22 AM

Then there's "whistle" for suit, from "whistle and flute". But my late father-in-law used to say "banjo" instead, from "banjo and flute", which I've never heard from anyone else, but prefer, since it's a more interesting musical combo.

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 07:13 AM

Oooh!, yes, Eliza. How lovely it would have been when I was young & up for it to give a nice young lady's Norwiches an affectionate little kiss after a nice little bit of how's-your-father!

It occurs to me that Bristol might have been the preferred option because of the subliminal attraction of the assonance of the i's in Bristol & City; but such a suggestion can of course only ever be highly speculative.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 09:23 AM

"Manchesters" just wouldn't sound right, would it?   Curious how these things work.

I. Always remember the Two Ronnies spin on rhyming slang, with "Apples and Wombat" for "combat"...

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 09:51 AM

It would if that's what we called it, Kevin. Quite arbitrary that Bristol was chosen over Manchester or any of the others - unless it was perhaps for the assonantal cause I suggest above. As David Lodge has a character say in one of his novels during a discussion of 'structuralism'*, there is no reason why DOG should mean an animal that goes woofwoof while CAT signifies one that goes miaouw; tho another character suggests that changing it round would confuse the animals!.

So if I want to call tits 'manchesters' then who's to stop me, eh?

~M~

*a lit theory he is much taken with but has always seemed to me one of those academic preoccupations obsessed with answering questions no normal person would ever dream of asking.

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: sciencegeek
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 09:58 AM

well... I read Mutt & Jeff all thru my younger years, but never realized it was popular in the UK.

LOL... hardly ever hear references to Mutt & Jeff any longer...

but if Andy Capp could be found in US comic pages, why not the reverse for some of ours ending up across the pond... :)

I still miss Pogo...

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 10:06 AM

In fact, all the successful strips have long been syndicated, so that we get Doonesbury & Blondie & Peanuts &c in our papers, just as you get Andy Capp.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 12:09 PM

What is a doctors whistle? Term from 1694, mentioned in Libera nos Domine (see thread).
Rhyming slang seems to have started in the 19th C., so "suit" seems unlikely.

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 02:20 PM

Some of you (at least) will be happy to know that not only do I remember dear old Ruby Murray fondly, I've even got the sheet music of Softly, softly.

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 05:41 PM

Surely manchesters would be fatty protuberances on a male torso?

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 05:44 PM

LOL Penny! "Ahm having liposooction on 't Manchesters next moonth, mate."

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 06:57 PM

ummm... gives a whole new rhyming perspective on hearing about the "Manchester City" club....

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 07:11 PM

Dog for Cat, no problem. Manchesters for Bristols? Just can't see it. But Penny's suggestion I can quite imagine catching on.

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 11:23 PM

Why, Kevin? What the difference?

Still, enjoy your Taylor's Bristol Cream Sherry ~~ must be mother's milk to you...

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 03:34 AM

Some of these are quite new to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Idiomatic meaning of 'raspberry'
From: mayomick
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 10:45 AM

Rod Liddle must have known what it meant . As an associate editor of the Spectator he probably thinks he has to be as politically incorrect as possible , but isn't mocking disabled people going too far ?