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BS: Pedants be damned
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Subject: BS: Pedants be damned From: gnu Date: 06 Dec 13 - 04:51 PM http://www.newrepublic.com/article/115817/stephen-fry-responds-grammar-pedants |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MartinRyan Date: 06 Dec 13 - 04:59 PM Pedants be dammed, I say! Regards |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Bill D Date: 06 Dec 13 - 05:32 PM Hillary Kelly failed to distinguish between grammar pedantry and 'punctuation' pedantry. ☺ Shame! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Joe Offer Date: 06 Dec 13 - 06:04 PM Whaddayamean, Bill? Are you saying that punctuation ain't grammar? I think that grammar, spelling, and punctuation are important. However, I hate it when pedant's attack another person's grammar in lieu of addressing the writer's ideas. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Gibb Sahib Date: 06 Dec 13 - 06:22 PM Off topic, but ever see "Stephen Fry's America"? He drives around the states making cynical comments about really nice people, mopes the whole time and complains about how people want to have fun (but he doesn't), and how the weather is too nice, the scenery and people too beautiful. He "visits" each state and half the time, instead of seeing what the place/culture has to offer, sits in a coffeeshop, reads books he could read any time (back home), and writes whiny things in his journal. Then, towards the end, he spends an entire episode running around Las Vegas - the most stereotypical tourist site for Brits and maybe the least representative of "America" - with gay strippers on some kind of scavenger hunt in the fake LV landscape. Who'd ever think that a trip to every freakin state of the enormous and diverse country of USA could be so damn boring? Well, Stephen Fry made it so! So, like USA's late Andy Rooney, I'd expect Fry to be able to whine and criticize from *any* position, against anyone! He's a pro. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Bill D Date: 06 Dec 13 - 06:22 PM We proud pedants distinguish between grammar and punctuation.... otherwise, why have different words? Punctuation is an aid TO grammar. (Besides, someone had to say it.) (yes, I'm sure it's quite possible to find errors in MY efforts... that does not negate my tedious point.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST Date: 06 Dec 13 - 07:00 PM Well, you maid 2 pointz, mist a capital letter, screwed up an ellipsis, asserted that someone had to say it when in fact no one did, claim pedants are proud when most are just plane a$$holes and other, like, ya know, stuff. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Jeri Date: 06 Dec 13 - 07:44 PM I'm not sure when things got standardized. If you read some old English (not "olde English" but old American English), spelling is all over the place, and other attributes of the written language are weird. The main point should be whether or not you can communicate. And no one is perfect. If you don't want a continuing pedantathon, zip it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST Date: 06 Dec 13 - 07:53 PM Yes, ma'am. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Jeri Date: 06 Dec 13 - 08:07 PM I was bitching more at Bill than you. I'm up for a good, old fashioned pedantathon, as long as I don't loose interest. (hehehe) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 06 Dec 13 - 08:21 PM Steven Fry- I couldn't care less |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST Date: 06 Dec 13 - 09:10 PM You missed your period, Q. Naughty, naughty LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: gnu Date: 06 Dec 13 - 09:10 PM Hahahahaa... be da lard dyin Jaysus yees all most and sundry got lots ta say what don't give two fucks from Tuesday. Shittin on a man what simply says leave me tha fuck alone. Pedantophiliacs be damned. And, lighten the fuck up eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Bill D Date: 06 Dec 13 - 10:31 PM Bitching at BILL? He of the most gentle perdantic sort of nature? Ah well... good thing I have 2-3 very full days ahead and will likely lose track. Pedantry is often unrewarding. However, it can be fun! I got much of my attitude from this delightful tome. (yup... left off one capital- I often do in parentheses. I said you'd find some teeny flaws. And I never do even attempt to do classical, formal ellipsis. Them dots is just how I think. I even do that when using pen & paper. But I only asserted that *I* was a proud pedant, and insinuated that others were... (oops, dots again) not that other pedants were necessarily proud.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Jeri Date: 06 Dec 13 - 10:45 PM Gentle bitching, Bill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST Date: 06 Dec 13 - 10:58 PM Correcting somebody's grammar is rather petty. A REAL pedant only steps in when the actual facts are wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Jeri Date: 06 Dec 13 - 11:28 PM Language exists for people to communicate ideas. I think complaining about whether there's subject/verb agreement or an apostrophe is out of place interferes with communication far more than the offenses. It halts conversations and subverts them. If what other people do bothers you, it's YOUR problem. Own it; don't try to make it other people's. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Mrrzy Date: 07 Dec 13 - 12:11 AM Love Bertie Wooster and Jeeves, too. "15 items or less" bothers me too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 07 Dec 13 - 01:21 AM A friend on another forum once posted "MGM, you're pedantry is legendary" -- I always took [or hoped] her error to have been a thematically intentional jest. I sometimes sign off posts here, when it is factual accuracy that is in question, with the mock qualification suffix OLP (Official Legendary Pedant). In fact, though, I agree with Guest above (10.58) that it's accuracy in facts that matters; language can take care of itself in its everlasting development. A few things irritate me, like an apostrophe before the final s of plural or 3rd person singular verbs, and [especially] in the possessive "its"; and 'are' for 'our': but I should never dream of posting to such effect. Anyhow, we pedants must stand together or we might lose our legendariness. We all rightly abhor racism, sexism, ageism ~~ surely Mudcatters are not going to tolerate pedantism in their midst! ~Michael~ OLP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,musket Date: 07 Dec 13 - 03:15 AM Ok. The superfluous apostrophe gets my goat. Next time I see one on a large enough sign, I shall tether my goat to it. When I wrote regulatory reports and they were ready for publication, a person employed as a final editor used to get her hands on them and test them for plain English etc. I printed out one email she sent with her comments and put it on my wall. It said simply, "period outwith parentheses. " I offered to take a loaded pistol and bottle of whisky into the study. (Couldn't find any whiskey. ) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 07 Dec 13 - 06:07 AM We need a set of rules against pedantry. Any Mudcatter caught offending will be formally sentenced to writing 50 times "i musn't be no Pedant." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Pete Jennings Date: 07 Dec 13 - 07:01 AM Hang on a sec, Q missed a period?!! Is he pregnant? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 07 Dec 13 - 09:46 AM LOL Pete, I did a double take on that as well! I'm a terrible pedant. I squirm and grumble every time I see a mistake in print or on a sign. I even correct the newspaper with a red pen. How sick is that? But I have to admit that as a teacher of many decades, I've corrected thousands and thousands of pupils' essays, and often the most badly-written, atrociously punctuated and grammatically grim efforts have turned out to be the most vibrant, entertaining and expressive. I therefore try not to be a snob. Actually, I have a feeling that, since language evolves naturally, the redundant apostrophe will become standard for all plurals ending in 's'. People seem more at ease with 'banana's' than 'bananas'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 07 Dec 13 - 10:34 AM I doubt that, Eliza, since it would make for new ambiguities on top of the existing ones. BTW, in Dutch an apostrophe is required for the plural of nouns ending in a long vowel: oma's, auto's. A radically reformed spelling of English, as phonetic as possible, may be considered. Other languages, notably Italian, did it when the time was more favourable. However, for writers there is no way past learning grammar. The tiny rest of grammar preserved in English written language should be defended; otherwise writing comprehensible texts will be more difficult and less flexible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Will Fly Date: 07 Dec 13 - 10:35 AM People seem more at ease with 'banana's' than 'bananas'. A banana's what, Eliza? That's what I usually silently ask myself when I see that spelling... A banana's jockey shorts, erection, curvature, inclinations? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 07 Dec 13 - 12:05 PM LOL Will! Banana's in their skin's. I saw a handwritten notice on a bit of cardboard last week, at the gate of a small-holding. It said 'Sprout's on Stalk's'. I ground my teeth all the way home. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Dec 13 - 12:47 PM "Keep off from the Grass" seen in Santa Fe some time ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: DMcG Date: 07 Dec 13 - 01:08 PM I don't get bothered by grammar or punctuation errors in general but it annoys me when it is on an official notice or similar company publications: hundreds or even more spent on preparation and publication and no-one thinks it worth the effort of checking it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Airymouse Date: 07 Dec 13 - 02:17 PM Lucky I, grammar comes naturally to me. When everyone is chanting,'two, four, six eight, who do we appreciate", I say to him or to her,"I'm right amn't I, it should be "WHOM do we appreciate." But he or she, as the sex may be, gives me only a puzzled look. Punctuation is quite another matter, and it's not just the tricky words like "chthonian" or "pilau" that trip me up. Put a "t" on "won",you get "wont", not "want". Put a "t" on "cover" you get "covert", not "co-vert", just like "coverture." I can pronounce "biscuit" and "triscuit" and "circuit", so why do I suddenly want to make "conduit" a three-syllable word? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 07 Dec 13 - 02:56 PM Ah, Airy -- once you get on to the vagaries of English spelling, have you thought how you will go through a rough cough though? Enough to branch·of·tree your heavy head! ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: gnu Date: 07 Dec 13 - 03:38 PM I *can* write and speak reasonably well in English, American (no... don't... u no what I mean), Canuck, Maineac, Newf, Labradorian, Bluenose, engineering (technical), and a few others but my favourite is Kent County on accounta that's where my heart is. I learnt how ta talk Good Ol Kent County Boy around a lotta camp fires where I heard tales that would most assuredly be bland, nay, banal, in fact, in Her Royal Majesty's English. Hmmm… perhaps an example?… We were following a new trail made by lumbering operations which proved to be a shortcut to the lake. The ice on the lake was thick enough to carry our weight close to the shore where it was fed from a stream of which the nearby headwaters emanated from springs. I knew about the springs because I had seen open water on the stream near the lake as we progressed along the trail. My analysis of the situation was that the ice might not be as thick away from the shoreline we arrived at due to the fact that the water velocity of the stream feeding the lake slows to a point where the colloidal suspension carried precipitates under the force of gravity, thus allowing the colder water to become ice more quickly. Indeed, the stream water was not frozen at the delta, that being some 20 metres from us, lending further credence to my conclusions. One of our party determined the ice thickness nearby by sounding the ice with the use of a length of a branch from a fallen maple tree. Essentially, he pounded the ice with the butt end of the maple branch and assessed the thickness by the sound. There was very little reverberation and he therefore concluded it was safe to journey forth. I was sceptical as it was only the middle of the month of December but, even after my objections and explanation, the general consensus was to carry on. I reluctantly agreed but said I would be the last of our troop to venture onto the lake ice and suggested that the man who sounded the ice take the lead. At approximately one hundred metres from shore, the lead snowmobile encountered ice which was not of sufficient thickness to bear it's weight. The ice gave way and the snowmobile sank. Thank goodness the operator, a Mr. David Owens, was able to cling to the edge of the ice until were extricated him and got him back to shore. We built a fire which we were able to start using birch bark and Spruce tree bottom branches devoid of needles. Needless to say, we were all appreciative of the fact the Mr. Owens was safe and sound, as was he. We broke open libations in celebration as Mr. Owens' and his clothing dried beside the fire. Unfortunately, the snowmobile will not be able to be extracted until the ice has become thick enough to bear the weight of a vehicle with a winch. His wife was not in a good mood when he explained to her the events of the day as his snowmobile was an expensive purchase. I hope he learned from this experience but he is well known for his rash bravado. We was up ta the lake on sleds early on eh? Jus afore Kissmeass. Found a new skidder road what takes ya right ta tha lake in jig time. Davey… ya knows Davey Owens eh? Crazy fucker he is! I says no way I am takin my sled across tha lake on early ice and, besides, I seen open water onna brook jus back a ways eh? I even points at the open water at the enda tha brook like, oh, twenny yards away, an says fer him at look at that an think fer a fuckin minute right? He says she's fine an thumps er with a stick. Sounded perfect but, like I said eh, I seen open water on tha brook just back up a ways so I figger she's spring fed right? Sure it's gonna be thick close at shore near the delta once she drops her mud eh? Right? Eh? So I says, you go first…. matter of fact, all a youse go first and I'll sit here n have a beer n watch. So, I'm sittin back watchin Daveyboy head across and FUCK ME if he don't go down! Next thing, all we see is his sorry ass on the edge of a big hole. We got his ass out and fired up a birch fer ta dry him up and broke out the Mooze. He was some fuckin lucky an he knows it. His sled is toast at least until we can get back there with sumpin heavy. The little woman was pissed, man! Lotta coin got wet. That boy'll never learn. Dumb as a fuckin post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: frogprince Date: 07 Dec 13 - 04:26 PM gnu, I'm compelled to admit that I was somewhat amused by the redundant presentation of the equivalent narrative in alternative linguistic traditions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: gnu Date: 07 Dec 13 - 05:34 PM I'll take that, froggy, with appreciation and humble gratitude. Matter a fact, it's a damn site better than the the shit that will rain down from some of the high and mighty whose prose don't stink. Either that or such and same will actually find it somewhat amusing but would never stoop to actaully acknowledging it in the false assumption that their (non) opinion matters two fucks from Tueesday to anyone but themselves. If my dyslexia has raised it's ugly head in anything I have said, PM under the subject "I object" and I'll delete it unread. I am a poet as well I can. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 07 Dec 13 - 05:50 PM Am I the only one who noticed "sufficient thickness to bear it's weight"? (I just had to validate my Pedant's License.) Gnu's point in the two versions of the story, however, is clear enough. "Good" speech and writing style depends upon the setting, the occasion, and the speaker/writer's intention. And for most occasions common courtesy is more important than proving one's superiority. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 07 Dec 13 - 05:53 PM Or even 'licence' Uncle Dave! (Just teasing) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Bill D Date: 07 Dec 13 - 06:22 PM I saw it, Dave, but wondered if I dared comment. You solved my problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: kendall Date: 07 Dec 13 - 06:58 PM When I see a sign such as "Burger and Fry's" I go batty. It's the dumbing down of America that gets to me, not the mistake itself. \ Another is "I brought my car to Meineke".That would only be proper if you were there. While we are on it, : I saw the EGGZIT sign! I was EXpecially relieved. It's cold in Anartica.
Britian's got talent. NO! Britain HAS talent. Is it laziness or ignorance? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MartinRyan Date: 07 Dec 13 - 07:17 PM There's a famous hostelry in the Galway village of Clarinbridge which once belonged to a man called Paddy Burke. Not surprisingly, it was/is always known as Paddy Burke's (the pub is silent, so to speak). In recent years, after several changes of ownership, the main sign on the frontage announces "Paddy Burkes". There's a large car-park to one side of the pub - which now proudly bears the title "Paddy Burkes's Car-park". And I can see why… Regards |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Dec 13 - 12:30 AM No, Kendall. This is a national difference. We find the American insistence on "has" where we would say "has [or 's] got" rather irritatingly picky. NB spelling of Britain, BTW. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Musket Date: 08 Dec 13 - 03:12 AM Yeah. Burger and fry's winds me up too. It should be burger and chip's, surely? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: DMcG Date: 08 Dec 13 - 05:09 AM Another minor irritation is deliberate or habitual misuse of words such as when, for instance, a hotel calls me a 'guest'. No, I'm a paying customer which means I can expect to get what I pay for. A guest suggests I should be content with what I am given. Its the mirror image of describing patients and so on as customers to try to influence how they think of themselves |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Will Fly Date: 08 Dec 13 - 06:36 AM Well, that's quite a long-standing custom, isn't it? We've had guesthouses for years - and a Gasthaus is just the same thing in Germany. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 08 Dec 13 - 07:06 AM We clean a holiday barn once a week for a very posh couple. The owner was most put out when I referred to the 'guests' as 'punters'. I love that word, and once disgraced myself at church when preparing the service books and remarked that we probably wouldn't get many 'punters' as the weather was so cold. Frosty looks and meaningful silences all round. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Will Fly Date: 08 Dec 13 - 07:30 AM I was once roundly told off by someone on Mudcat - some years ago - for using the word "punters" when talking about audiences in clubs and pubs. I was told it was demeaning to them. Well, the punters never heard us talking about them. It was (and still is) a word very much in use in the music business. So I disagreed with that rather pedantic comment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Triplane Date: 08 Dec 13 - 07:42 AM The pedants. ARE revolting , let them create ache "Alons enfant de la Patrie let jour de gloire est arrive/" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: akenaton Date: 08 Dec 13 - 08:25 AM Shurely shome mishtake? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Dec 13 - 12:44 PM From Webster's Dictionary- punter- a player who punts [football] punter- a person who propels or travels in a punt. What peculiar usages these English have. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Dec 13 - 01:25 PM Q - A punt is a colloquial word here for a bet. So a punter was originally a racegoer; and the word extended to cover people who choose to attend or participate in other events. I can just about see why some fussy churchgoers might just consider it a somewhat disrespectful, slang or over-idiomatic way to refer to the congregation at what to them is a sacred occasion, tho it must have been obvious that Eliza intended no disrespect; but Will's usage was perfectly colloquially acceptable, surely? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: akenaton Date: 08 Dec 13 - 01:35 PM Quite right M, "punters" are bookmakers customers, but I don't believe bookmaking is legal in the US. Racecourses operate a totalisator system. So the odds are completely determined by how much money goes on each horse or greyhound. This system cuts out much of the cheating at sports events where betting takes place. A "punt" is the Irish for one pound sterling, and the word was applied to those who "invested" their punts with "Slippery Pat" :0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Dec 13 - 02:04 PM The usage (punter) in England does not extend to North America as yet. I read a lot of fiction, a good deal of it UK, so I am aware of its usage there. Got, gotten; The OED has the usages to which you object. They seem to have become rare in the UK, but persist in North America. This was brought up in another thread some time ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Dec 13 - 02:08 PM To which who objects, Q? Your last post appeared to be in reply to mine; but I have certainly never so objected... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Dec 13 - 03:00 PM Sorry, I put two posts together. The "has" with "got" was the one *I was referring to. (*to which I was referring) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Dec 13 - 03:15 PM No, Q, I wasn't objecting to 'gotten'; just pointing out that 'has got' is the normal UK usage where in the US you use the simple 'has'. No particular animus; tho,as I said, you appear to find ours tautologous and we find yours perhaps a bit prim. A matter of one's customary mode of thought & expression, really, rather than involving any sort of 'pedantry' as implied or desiderated by this thread. I appreciate the irony implied in your asterisked alternative formulation; but if you think I should have any objection of any sort whatever to your first usage, then I assure that I should not. My pedantries, "legendary" tho they have been stated to be, involve only matters of fact, not of linguistic usage. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST Date: 09 Dec 13 - 08:31 AM MtheGM, as George Bush said, "When in Rome, do as Romanians do." Britains got talent may be acceptable over there, but it's poor grammar here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: kendall Date: 09 Dec 13 - 08:38 AM Pillock is an interesting word; it has no meaning here, but I was encouraged to not use it in the UK. Like "Schmuck", fairly common here but I dare say most non Jews use it without knowing what it means. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Dec 13 - 08:48 AM Maybe GUEST of two posts back. But Britain is here; so I don't see it matters in the lest whether it is acceptable there or not. So perhaps you would be good enough to butt out of the names of our [not your] tv programmes [thus spelt], if it is not too much to ask... Thank you. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Paul Reade Date: 09 Dec 13 - 08:53 AM Re "Pillock". My favouraite definition is from the late Jake Thackray: "a Yorkshire scrotum" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Lighter Date: 09 Dec 13 - 09:37 AM "Has got" is perfectly normal here in the US as well. Colloquial: "How many you got?" "I('ve) got plenty." (But!: "How many has he got?" Standard/Formal: "How many do you have?" "I have plenty." Formal but rather uncommon: "How many have you?" "I have plenty." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Will Fly Date: 09 Dec 13 - 10:23 AM Oh, I got plenty o' nuttin' And nuttin's plenty for me. I got no car, got no mule, I got no misery. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: kendall Date: 09 Dec 13 - 10:33 AM Mthe GM, we have the same tv show here, and I don't give a rats ass where it is used, I don't like it. So, you know what they say about opinions. I suggest YOU bugger off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: kendall Date: 09 Dec 13 - 10:36 AM Lighter, it is common here, so is aint, me and her, me and you, and nome sane. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Dec 13 - 11:05 AM Well, dearie me ~~ Not like poor old Kendall to be such a stinking-mannered slob. Tch! Tch! Now what can have got his knickers into such a terrible twist? Rhetorical question, of course; so please don't anyone waste time answering, as if somebody somewhere might just give a — um — rodent's posterior for the answer. ~M~ shaking ☹ sadly |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Nigel Parsons Date: 09 Dec 13 - 12:34 PM MtheGM: Sorry, in this case I must side with the colonials. My understanding (however misguided)has always been that get/got includes some extent of fetch/collect/gather. If you possess something you have it. If you have got it, I would ask where you have got it from. I don't "get a train", I "Catch a train". A shunter driver may get a train (from the sidings). "Britain has talent" does not have quite the same ring. There again the existing title could refer to the gathering in of talent to appear in the show. Cheers Nigel |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Dec 13 - 12:35 PM spelt? Isn't that a kind of fish? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: kendall Date: 09 Dec 13 - 12:48 PM MtheGM, don't flatter yourself. You have no right to tell me what to do or not to do. I've been in a bad mood ever since Bush got appointed president. "Never argue with someone whose opinion you don't respect." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 09 Dec 13 - 01:12 PM Shouldn't the thread title read "Pedants are damned"? Unless it was posted by a pirate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Dec 13 - 01:33 PM Kendall, you are disgracing yourself, and it is distressing for all of us to see. Such unmannerliness is no part of the Morse Code. And I have every right to say what I please to you: perhaps not to tell you what to do; but certainly to comment on what you choose to say. You don't seem to be suffering from any inhibitions in that particular just now. Seamus -- No, it's a subjunctive. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: kendall Date: 09 Dec 13 - 02:34 PM Sir, you aint seen nothin'. Piss me off and see what happens. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Dec 13 - 02:47 PM I'm trembling in my shoes [except that I am wearing sheepskin moccasins -- I suppose they count as shoes]. So ~~ earwig-o: Piss off Kendall, you googleheaded goon! So; now: go on something ~~~ HAPPEN! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: kendall Date: 09 Dec 13 - 03:11 PM I'm busy trying to imagine you with a personality. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Dec 13 - 05:22 PM Eh? Anyone any idea what he's on about? Or, even, what he's on? He's becoming increasingly incoherent, isn't he? It isn't me, as promised, that is being abused. Maybe it's some substance? Still, he did have the grace, quite rightly, to call me 'Sir' in his penultimate post. At least he seems to have some idea of his place. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: kendall Date: 09 Dec 13 - 07:03 PM If I were much younger and had lots of time to waste on a troll I would rip you a new one.However, I don't, and you obviously have a juvenile need to have the last word, and I don't so fire away, your target has left the room. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Elmore Date: 10 Dec 13 - 06:35 PM Saw a sign at the big beautiful supermarket today. Waldorf salad was on sale in Hayesville, NC. However, they spelled it Waldrof. Made me laugh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,olddude Date: 10 Dec 13 - 08:38 PM all over England signs that read "Mind your Head" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,olddude Date: 10 Dec 13 - 08:44 PM those signs are in pubs when you are walking down narrow steps trying to find the "lew" of course here we call them restrooms, outhouses, shit house, library , john's and a host of other names. However, it all comes out in the end |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Gibb Sahib Date: 10 Dec 13 - 10:23 PM I was teaching English as a second language once. To factory workers, most of whose first language was Spanish or Portugee. As we know, those languages use a simple form corresponding to " X HAS Y." Yet the textbook I was supposed to teach from had only the form of " 's got". What a ball of confusion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Musket Date: 11 Dec 13 - 04:45 AM Pedantry alert.. Loo, not Lew, Johnny Foreigner. Be a good chap and do try to keep up. A good few years ago when a large shopping centre (sadly, we too see the word "mall" being used these days,) opened near us, I went into a coffee shop. Their menu offered "expresso." Not wanting to be crass and point out the error, I still wasn't going to join in either and and asked for an espresso. I was delighted to be told by the waitress I was saying it wrong..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 11 Dec 13 - 04:53 AM What the silly woman meant to say was that you were espressing it wrong, I suppose. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Musket Date: 11 Dec 13 - 04:56 AM Well, it was Meadowhall, which is uncomfortably close to Barnsley, so she could have been speaking deeh daah..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Troubadour Date: 11 Dec 13 - 05:04 AM ""Good" speech and writing style depends upon the setting, the occasion, and the speaker/writer's intention. And for most occasions common courtesy is more important than proving one's superiority." Persackly! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Troubadour Date: 11 Dec 13 - 05:19 AM "Britains got talent may be acceptable over there, but it's poor grammar here." Unacceptable here too, without the apostrophe "Britain's got talent". Pedants realy need to proof read more carefully GUEST. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Troubadour Date: 11 Dec 13 - 05:27 AM And so do I really, but a pedant I ain't! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Musket Date: 11 Dec 13 - 05:59 AM I am no longer a pedant. Not since I bought an electric bicycle. Which I did actually... Far easier coming home from the pub now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,kendall Date: 11 Dec 13 - 07:59 AM The other day, one of our young weather reporters posted BLIZARD warning. Do they not teach spelling in weather school? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Lighter Date: 11 Dec 13 - 08:13 AM Watch spelling. What you mean is "Britons got talent." Us Americans got talent too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Lighter Date: 11 Dec 13 - 08:18 AM Check out Taylor Swift's get-up at the Victoria's Secret show as an example. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,LynnH Date: 11 Dec 13 - 01:32 PM Then, of course, there are those here on Mudcat who feel that they have to correct other peoples songs because of some real or imagined linguistic sin.......................... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,olddude Date: 11 Dec 13 - 03:37 PM how about musket if I be a good old redneck chap as you say and slap the shit out of you ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,olddude Date: 11 Dec 13 - 03:44 PM by the way the sign in your own pub had an arrow and the word "Lew" so correct your own spelling |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,musket giggling Date: 11 Dec 13 - 04:12 PM Well if you must read bog wall graffiti. .. Probably popped into the office of Lew the pub owner and pissed in his plant pot. Reminds me of a pub in Ireland in a village near Wexford called Screen that had a trophy on the wall with a rabbit's head on it. Oh, it had rather well crafted small antlers too. When we got in, the barman was busy explaining to two American tourists that such rabbits were indigenous to that corner of Ireland. Out came the cameras. .... Bless. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,olddude Date: 11 Dec 13 - 04:15 PM you must have been there, why yes I did. The plants looked like it needed water LOL I shouldn't post when I am in a bad mood my apologies |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MartinRyan Date: 11 Dec 13 - 06:34 PM "Britons got talent" - the rest of us had to settle for genius! ;>)> Regards |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST Date: 11 Dec 13 - 07:44 PM WE Yanks also have talent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: gnu Date: 11 Dec 13 - 10:08 PM Hahahahahaaaa! I just read a bunch a posts since I was arsed ta come back after ye pedants decided I mistalked a thought that ye all understood. Ye are a strange lot. Some a youse even try and do instead a try to do and then try to justify it. Been there, done that on another thread(s), much to my amazement... pedants CANNOT be held accountable, even when clearly in error. Holier than thou ain't worth shit. This thread was/is about that/you. Defending yourselves in such a manner as evidenced herein is indicting yourselves as self pretentious. Then again, who would expect less? Me? I just read what buddy said and can't be arsed to tell him he said it wrong. I mean, if I could tell him he said it wrong... well, do the math eh? Lighten the fuck up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,olddude Date: 11 Dec 13 - 11:09 PM hey Gnu aren't chaps those leather leg things the cowboys use to keep their nuts from getting sore while riding ? or is it shaps ... I get so confused. My lips got pretty darn chaps once when I was trudging through the snow carrying a .338 magnum |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST, Ebbie Date: 12 Dec 13 - 02:23 AM Well, I, for one, don't mind being called pedantic when it comes to correcting, even if silently, some of the egregious stuff I come across. Point: I know we often say the 'fridge' but do you that it is therefore OK to spell it 'refridgerator'? Or 'Congradulations!' Or 'Potatoe's 89cents a pound'? Or 'There going to be their soon'? Or a myriad of other common ignorantics? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Musket Date: 12 Dec 13 - 04:19 AM Yo olddude! Could have been worse. My mate was sleeping over at his recently new girlfriend's house a few years ago. They went for a drink, which turned into a few drinks... In a nutshell, without getting too crude, he had to disappoint her, blame the beer and tell her to "wait till the morning." The morning never came. He was turfed out carrying his clothes in the middle of the night. Still drunk, he had got up for a pee and walked towards her en suite bathroom. He got as far as the wardrobe..... Local folklore has added a nice bit about pulling hangers off the rail trying to flush it........ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Dec 13 - 04:45 AM hey Gnu aren't chaps those leather leg things the cowboys use to keep their nuts from getting sore while riding ? or is it shaps ... I get so confused. My lips got pretty darn chaps once when I was trudging through the snow carrying a .338 magnum Then there was the woman who fell asleep naked in the city centre ... She woke up with a chap between her thighs. Or the woman who fell asleep naked on the syagogue steps... She woke with a heavy dew upon her. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 12 Dec 13 - 10:01 AM aren't chaps those leather leg things the cowboys use to keep their nuts from getting sore while riding ? No, chaps are those leather leg things the cowboys use to protect their legs when they have to ride in rough brush. Chaps are leg coverings only, and wouldn't be any help in protecting their nuts. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Dec 13 - 10:15 AM An hundred. OK? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Dec 13 - 10:16 AM Squirrels protect their nuts by burying them. Why do squirrels swim on their backs? To keep their nuts dry. 100 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,olddude Date: 12 Dec 13 - 12:49 PM musket LOL .. brings back my college memories |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: kendall Date: 12 Dec 13 - 12:51 PM forMIDABLE. jewlery |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 12 Dec 13 - 01:16 PM ped·ant n."Undue attention" depends on the context. A shop owner must criticize an emplyee who writes "Potatoe's 89cents a pound" for reasons of orthography; a customer had better ponder on the price. Dan Quayle did do some politics, didn't he? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: gnu Date: 12 Dec 13 - 03:50 PM "refridgerator" Ah... fridge, right? Actually, Ebbie, I am being refriggerated at the moment. Minus WTF? here in both F n C and even K and it's windy ta boot! And it ain't really cold yet. That's come Febuary month. Tank da lard jAYsus fer me inside plumb er I'd aft ta skin a skerwl fer ta make a powch fer me own nuts. Apedants unite! We shall overcome tiranny. Er not. Ooo gives two fucks from Tuesday? BTW, I spelt 'Ooh' wrong just to piss off the pednts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 12 Dec 13 - 05:23 PM Might be time for you to start on a gnu tack, eh, new? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,laptopgnu Date: 12 Dec 13 - 07:03 PM Nah, MGM. My tack is just fine. I'm jus sayin eh? I dunno why pedants not only attempt to edify, which I DO appreciate, but also feel the need of demonstration of their 'superiorty'. Especially when they are, to the actual letter, absolutely incorrect. To wit, on a thread a while back, I offered 'try and do' vs 'try to do'. Nobody can 'try and do'. It's grammatically impossible and no amount of common usage or any other bullshit arguements can convince a sane pedant otherwise. Some pedants who offer such and same say it is okay for them to utter such travesties which assault not only language but also basic logic in defense of only their own self proclaimed superiorty. So, when someone posts 'try and do' instead of 'try to do', I cringe but I don't tell them they are illiterate or illogical. N at dere, buddy? Dat is good enough fer da girls I goes wit. Roight? Eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: kendall Date: 12 Dec 13 - 07:56 PM A Hawk is an Eagle among Crows. hehehehe |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: kendall Date: 12 Dec 13 - 07:58 PM That is not aimed at anyone. It was 2 degrees above zero this morning here. They say it's going to get cold this weekend. May have to button up my vest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Doug Chadwick Date: 13 Dec 13 - 04:24 AM Nobody can 'try and do' If I make an attempt at something which turns out to be successful, I both 'try' and 'do'. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Airymouse Date: 13 Dec 13 - 01:39 PM I sing old-time songs,because I really am an old timer. I am stuck with all sorts of pedantic grammatical baggage. Does anyone believe any of these rules? You can stand in the dock (in court), but you can't stand ON a dock unless it's a dry dock, because a dock is where the water is. Hence "dockside" but not "wharfside." You can't be "more specific", because you can't "more specify" something.It's a false comparative. It's OK to say "the delay, DUE TO the thunderstorm, lasted 3 hours", but "due to" is adjectival, so it's not OK to say "the game was delayed, due to the thunderstorm. (You need "because of".) You TAKE the basket to the picnic and you BRING it back. In mud cat parlance "bring back my bonnie TO me." As an old-timer I also find myself defending constructions to which others object. Anyone object to these: It's a RIGHT pretty day.("Right" means "very", just as in "right reverend Dimesdale.")I sang it WRONG."wrong" means "wrongly" just as in "the divine right of kings to govern wrong". The house needs PAINTED. The infinitive is understood and hence omitted just as in "The dog wants out" or " I now pronounce you man and wife." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: kendall Date: 13 Dec 13 - 04:20 PM Another abused word; Unique. It can not be qualified. Something is either unique or it is not. No middle ground. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Ebbie Date: 13 Dec 13 - 04:29 PM Kendall, that reminds me of a quote I read in my local paper the other week. I laughed until I couldn't laugh any more. It had to do with a commissioner of something or another who was commenting on a misdemeanor that has largely gone unpunished even though the law is clear on the matter. He said, Well, I just hope they will literally throw the book at him. gigglegigglegigglegiggle |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 13 Dec 13 - 05:52 PM I hate to hear "eye-dillic' when it should be 'id-illic'. And as for 'haitch' ...aaaaaaggghhhh! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Dec 13 - 07:31 PM I give it him- terrible, init? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Dec 13 - 08:05 PM Pedantry about grammar and spelling is a bit irrelevant, and tends to trivialize things. "Pedantry" about facts is another thing, because facts matter. And I include getting names right as a fact. For example when people write about Ghandi I tend to point out that the name is Gandhi. Getting it wrong there seems to me a kind of discourtesy, just as it would be to refer to Mandella or Mandala - which I have no doubt is going to happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Bill D Date: 13 Dec 13 - 09:19 PM Ebbie said: "I know we often say the 'fridge' but do you that it is therefore OK to spell it 'refridgerator'? " MY pedantic peeve is directed at those who abbreviate it 'frig'.... Google tells you that ignorance can be embarrassing as well as blissful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Lighter Date: 13 Dec 13 - 09:30 PM > "Pedantry" about facts is another thing, because facts matter. That pretty much puts the rest of it into perspective. Except for the growing number of those (some with PhDs) who insist that "fact" and "opinion" are synonymous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Musket Date: 14 Dec 13 - 03:16 AM Very true. But bear in mind that opinions are usually supported by the perception of facts. Very few people go out of their way to verify what they consider to be fact. A holder of a doctorate in canine orgasms may consider their thesis to be the fact of the day but tomorrow YouTube May have footage of a Labrador laying back enjoying a cigarette whilst a poodle nips to the bathroom. Or some such bollocks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 14 Dec 13 - 03:34 AM Aaaahhhh! — pedantry! Nonononono - forget I said that!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Ebbie Date: 14 Dec 13 - 04:04 PM Having been reared on a farm, the image that comes to my mind when someone speaks of 'laying' is of a farm chicken. However, the word is so commonly misused I think there is little doubt that it will make it into the dictionary as an alternative, rather sooner than later. There are thousands, perhaps, of such distortions that have become correct through such process. Think of 'decimate', for one example. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Doug Chadwick Date: 14 Dec 13 - 04:58 PM 'decimate':- one tenth of a friend. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Ebbie Date: 14 Dec 13 - 08:22 PM Ah, but from which end? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Dec 13 - 08:47 PM Opinions actually are a variety of fact - they are facts about the person holding them, and if they are misstated by another person, or for that matter by the person themselves, it is quite relevant to try to put the record straight. Grammar and syntax and spelling also of course involve facts, but almost always facts irrelevant to a discussion, unless the discussion is actually about grammar and syntax or spelling - and most of the time pretty insignificant facts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Doug Chadwick Date: 14 Dec 13 - 11:38 PM Grammar and syntax and spelling also of course involve facts, but almost always facts irrelevant to a discussion ....... Unless, of course, the misuse of grammar, syntax and spelling leads to ambiguity, in which case the facts may be misinterpreted. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Musket Date: 15 Dec 13 - 03:04 AM Michael. You excel yourself. I put two other red rags to pedants in that post. Can you spot those too? Lay lady lay Lay across my big wood kennel |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: DMcG Date: 15 Dec 13 - 03:39 AM 'Lie/Lay' Having not even bothered to check with the dictionaries on this, the rest of this post is unfounded! However ... Since this term will certainly predate the standardisation of spellings, and may well represent different accents, it seems to me extremely likely that actually these are the same word, and in normal usage I'd regard making a distinction between them as empty pedantry, as opposed to useful pedantry. However, in the case of 'I told her a pack of lies and she decided to lie back': that's one of the few cases where it matters whether she became supine or vocal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Musket Date: 15 Dec 13 - 04:42 AM That whole scenario seems fishy to me. I reckon supine because she knew her plaice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 15 Dec 13 - 11:20 AM Here in Norfolk, 'lay' is used for preference. For example, "He's now laying on his bed," or "Hev a lay-down; dew, yew'll feel better." I believe it's because the word 'lie' has such strong connotations of dishonesty and deception. The meaning of 'lie' is so powerful that people are reluctant to use it even when it would be correct to do so. The two forms, 'lay' and 'lie' have therefore been strictly segregated according to their meaning, and 'lay' preferred subconsciously for having no dishonesty attached to it. If one wants to accuse someone of not telling the truth, one would say,"Yer looooooiiiing!" or, "Doon't yew looooiiii ter me!" with the word stressed and prolonged enormously. So when one meets it in the innocuous, "Lie down.", it grates and jars. Just a theory of mine! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: kendall Date: 15 Dec 13 - 12:00 PM "She knew her Plaice". LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Nigel Parsons Date: 15 Dec 13 - 01:51 PM She was only the fishmonger's daughter, but she knew her plaice! or, She was only the fishmonger's daughter, But she lay (lied?) on the slab, and said "Fillet!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: kendall Date: 15 Dec 13 - 04:39 PM On a "scale: of 1 to 10. 6. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Nigel Parsons Date: 15 Dec 13 - 08:44 PM And, talking of 'scales'. Can we please note that the astrology sign often known as "The Scales" (Libra) is no such thing. It actually represents a 'twin pan balance' Cheers |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:27 AM LOL Nigel! Sounds rather like a large bra! (I'm Libra!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Bill D Date: 16 Dec 13 - 11:16 AM I suppose that's better than being a T-cup... or a Z-bra. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Lighter Date: 16 Dec 13 - 11:37 AM Gosh, Bill, I never knew that the words "teacup" and "zebra" required dash-expurgation. How attitudes change! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Troubadour Date: 16 Dec 13 - 12:21 PM "A holder of a doctorate in canine orgasms may consider their(?) thesis to be the fact of the day ......" Multiple Personality Disorder? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Airymouse Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:13 PM About this "lie" vs "lay" business. As the word, "layabout," suggests, this issue has been with us for some time. I think there are books that are important, but not great literature (e.g., Wizard of Oz,Uncle Tom's Cabin, and Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy.) One of these is Richard Dana's, Two Years before the Mast,which became important, because it was a valuable source of information about California, for those who wanted to participate in the gold rush of 1849. Dana had spent those two years doubling the cape and visiting California. In Dana's book he mentions that the sailors talk about "laying out" in the sun. For what it's worth (not much I suspect) his conclusion is that the saliors' use is an ellipsis with "their bodies" being left out, but understood. BTW Mark Twain uses an incident from Two Years before the Mast in his acceptance speech at Oxford. Twain's use alone gives Dana's book importance, because Twain's speech is one of the best acceptance speeches ever given. OFF TOPIC In my country it has suddenly become popular to use "gravitas" (weighed down with eggs) as if it means "importance". If I had used "gravitas" for "importance" above, would you have pictured an old book covered with insect eggs? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:53 PM Airymouse, Wikipedia says that Gravitas was one of the Roman virtues, along with pietas, dignitas and virtus. It may be translated variously as weight, seriousness and dignity, also importance, and connotes a certain substance or depth of personality. I don't know where you get the bit about eggs. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:18 PM "Albeit". Use this stupid, pretentious word in my presence and you risk a fat lip, I can tell you. Also, the use of the abominable "prior to" instead of "before" (a lovely word if ever there was one) is a mortal sin. Finally, I went to Morrisons the other day with my turkey order form, on which I was able to "pre-order" my Kelly Bronze. I informed the young woman at Customer Services that I did not wish to pre-order a turkey: I wished to order one. She looked at me as though I'd gone bananas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Nigel Parsons Date: 17 Dec 13 - 05:05 AM In my country it has suddenly become popular to use "gravitas" (weighed down with eggs) as if it means "importance". If I had used "gravitas" for "importance" above, would you have pictured an old book covered with insect eggs? I think you're confusing: 'Gravitas' (weight/dignity) with 'Gravid' (weighed down with pregnancy/eggs) As you can see, by carefully detailing each description they both have a relationship with weight (as with 'gravity') |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Musket Date: 17 Dec 13 - 05:25 AM How does one go bananas Steve? I'll tell you what, I've just been picked up for slipping a plural into a singular statement. Makes you think twice before writing anything on a thread about pedantry... Which brings us back to the title of the thread.. Surely, this is about damning pedantry, not perpetuating the noise it makes? Eyup, I use albeit.. It's my word of the month I'll have you know! If anyone wishes to write contorted mangled sentences, I suggest you try the style guide I worked to when writing regulatory reports for publication. If you look at any Care Quality Commission inspection report, available on their website, you will notice the poor ruddy inspector has to avoid gender, leading to singular to plural being the order of the day. "One person told us of their experience. They spoke of their lack of access to ...Etc." That's one inspector speaking with one person by the way. They won a plain English award during my time too..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 17 Dec 13 - 06:45 AM The idiomatic use of plural pronouns 'they', 'their', &c, to represent the clumsy & laborious 'he or she', 'his or hers', is generally recognised as acceptable, as English lacks the useful impersonal pronoun like French 'on' or German 'mann'. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Murray MacLeod Date: 17 Dec 13 - 01:29 PM "I informed the young woman at Customer Services that I did not wish to pre-order a turkey: I wished to order one. She looked at me as though I'd gone bananas". Steve, I do hope you are not one of those pompous gits who delight in informing the checkout girl that "It's not a PIN number ...it's a PIN". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 17 Dec 13 - 02:42 PM The distinction is that a 'pre-order' is an order given before the item becomes actually available, for it to be supplied as and when it is available; an 'order' is, as name implies, an instruction to supply you with the item. A synonym for 'pre-order' could be 'reserve', but it would be less precise. You were at fault, Steve, in blurring a valid distinction, which the young woman understood (even tho she might not have been able to articulate it); and you didn't. You have nothing to sound so self-satisfied about in this particular exchange. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Murray MacLeod Date: 17 Dec 13 - 03:57 PM Just to clarify the "order" v "pre-order" issue ... I deal all the time with a company in the US who manufacture the most innovative woodworking tools and accessories you could wish for. On occasion, they bring out a product which they believe will have a viable market, but prudently, they do not go ahead blindly and manufacture thousands of the items without knowing what the demand is actually going to be. So what they do is ask for "pre-orders". If sufficient "pre-orders " do not materialise then the product will not get manufactured and nobody loses any money. What happens in this case is that your credit card does not get charged until the item is actually ready for dispatch. If you are asked to pay in full at the time you place the order ...then you are not in any way "pre-ordering" the item ...you are ordering it, period. There is an implication that the item is in stock and available for dispatch or collection. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Dec 13 - 06:04 PM Now The, I'm an admirer of your general erudition, but, on this occasion, I have no hesitation in declaring that you are talking utter bollocks (you've done it before on several occasions, as it happens, but I haven't said anything). "Pre-order" is a senseless, useless, redundant and pretentious modernism. There is a bottom line here (to use another such), thus: if I go into Morrisons in April to order a Christmas turkey, everyone there knows what my intention is but I will, of course, be dismissed out of hand for being stupid. Rightly so, but no-one will accuse me of attempting to "pre-order". If I go into Morrisons in early December to bag me Kelly Bronze, stating that I wish to order my turkey, no-one but no-one will say to me "But ahah Mr Shaw! What you really want to do is to pre-order your turkey!" Everyone knows what I mean, come rain or shine, come winter, summer or pre-Thanksgiving, when I say "I wish to order a turkey." We have spoken thus for many centuries, and the "pre-" is a modern piece of superfluous and pretentious nonsense. As for the correspondent above who would make the nice distinction between pre-ordering and ordering on the basis of whether one pays upfront or not, well, dear boy, pick the bones out of this one: the form said I was pre-ordering the bloody thing, yet I had to pay a deposit amounting to half the price of the still-gobbling beast. I await your analysis with delicious anticipation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Murray MacLeod Date: 17 Dec 13 - 07:09 PM "...If you are asked to pay in full at the time you place the order ...then you are not in any way "pre-ordering" the item ...you are ordering it, period. There is an implication that the item is in stock and available for dispatch or collection. "...the form said I was pre-ordering the bloody thing, yet I had to pay a deposit amounting to half the price of the still-gobbling beast. "pay in full" is not in any way equivalent to "deposit amounting to half the price" ... I would concur that "pre-order" is indeed a neologism, one which would possibly have caused raised eyebrows on the part of Shakespeare and Dickens, but I would contend that in this modern world, it is a valid and acceptable term for what has become standard commercial practice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Dec 13 - 07:36 PM You're a valiant fellow, Murray, but the turkey I ordered (not pre-ordered!) does in fact exist (unless, of course, Morrisons are a bunch of charlatans out to deceive the populace on the turkey supply front), and I have paid at least some dough upfront for said Xmas victim. Looking at this more broadly, I've noticed a trend for retailers of various ilk to invite us to "pre-order" stuff that isn't actually available as yet. Consider this: they are actually trying to make us feel as though we have some sneaky insight into the future availability which may not last, of course (so buy it now, quick!). Quite often, the goods on sale which can be "pre-ordered" become much cheaper a little while after they hit the market. "Pre-order" is a scam (and I'm being serious now for a minute). Albeit useful for the retailers who employ the term. Shit, did I really just say that?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Airymouse Date: 17 Dec 13 - 09:09 PM Nigel: Thanks. I stand corrected. But I still don't like the word "gravitas." My copy of the OED has "gravisonous" followed by "gravitate." Of course there are words that the OED skips, which I see in use: "Jaws Harp" (for Jews' Harp) or "chairperson" (for chairman). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Bill D Date: 17 Dec 13 - 09:40 PM Just remembered upon reading about 'pre-ordering'. I actually heard once on National Public Radio: "This program was pre-recorded earlier." Surely they could have clarified it by adding "on a previous date." I'm not sure whether that ranks with the waitress who asked me: "Would you like your sandwich with au jus?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 18 Dec 13 - 12:33 AM Steve: My point was really in defence of the young woman, who was not in fact in error as to usage or sense, but was doubtless distressed and left feeling vulnerable as a result of your misplaced censorious pomposity; which I trust your better recollections will realise not to have been entirely courteous to her. ~M~ It is 0527 hrs. I am an early riser these days, so I don't expect you will read this until rather later in the day. I have nevertheless pre-posted it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Musket Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:14 AM Oy! Steve! Your bloody turkey had better be worth the ruddy effort. All this debate... We need a full report on the flavour, texture and what you did with the rest when you couldn't face any more of the thing. In the meantime, let us all reflect on what Xmas day means for most men. Same as every other day. Sat at the table staring at a fat bird who doesn't gobble any more. Ithankyouverymuch. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Murray MacLeod Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:53 AM Musket, I very very rarely LOL at anything I read on screen, but I must admit your post made me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Dec 13 - 11:57 AM Now now, The, I assure you that the exchange with the young lady (with whom I enjoy familiar rapport: we're like that in Bude) was light-hearted and executed on both sides with a nod and a wink. Actually, I'd presupposed you'd continue with this line of post-hectoring. You have pre-previous with this, you know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 18 Dec 13 - 01:23 PM I had pre-emptively pre-presumed some such pre-interpretation... Ah ~~ pre-cisely... So don't pre-imagine yourself first past the ~~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Nigel Parsons Date: 18 Dec 13 - 03:32 PM And remember, like a puppy, a turkey is not just for Christmas. There's cold turkey, turkey sandwiches, and finally curried turkey. Should last at least until New Year :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Dec 13 - 06:43 PM Nigel, no worries. I've already pre-planned my turkey curry for the day post-Boxing day... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: gnu Date: 18 Dec 13 - 09:38 PM Nigel... that's why I wrote this thread. Last time I was sober, man I felt bad Worst hangover that I ever had It took six hamburgers and scotch all night Nicotine for breakfast just to put me right Cause if you wanna run cool If you wanna run cool If you wanna run cool, you got to run On heavy, heavy fuel Heavy, heavy fuel Heavy, heavy fuel My life makes perfect sense Lust and food and violence Sex and money are my major kicks Get me in a fight I like dirty tricks Cause if you wanna run cool If you wanna run cool Yes if you wanna run cool, you got to run On heavy, heavy fuel Heavy, heavy fuel Heavy, heavy fuel My chick loves a man whos strong The things shell do to turn me on I love the babes, dont get we wrong Hey, thats why I wrote this song I dont care if my liver is hanging by a thread Dont care if my doctor says I ought to be dead When my ugly big car wont climb this hill Ill write a suicide note on a hundred dollar bill Cause if you wanna run cool If you wanna run cool Yes if you wanna run cool, you got to run On heavy, heavy fuel Heavy, heavy fuel Heavy, heavy fuel On heavy, heavy fuel Heavy, heavy fuelLast time I was sober, man I felt bad Worst hangover that I ever had It took six hamburgers and scotch all night Nicotine for breakfast just to put me right Cause if you wanna run cool If you wanna run cool If you wanna run cool, you got to run On heavy, heavy fuel Heavy, heavy fuel Heavy, heavy fuel My life makes perfect sense Lust and food and violence Sex and money are my major kicks Get me in a fight I like dirty tricks Cause if you wanna run cool If you wanna run cool Yes if you wanna run cool, you got to run On heavy, heavy fuel Heavy, heavy fuel Heavy, heavy fuel My chick loves a man whos strong The things shell do to turn me on I love the babes, dont get we wrong Hey, thats why I wrote this song I dont care if my liver is hanging by a thread Dont care if my doctor says I ought to be dead When my ugly big car wont climb this hill Ill write a suicide note on a hundred dollar bill Cause if you wanna run cool If you wanna run cool Yes if you wanna run cool, you got to run On heavy, heavy fuel Heavy, heavy fuel Heavy, heavy fuel On heavy, heavy fuel Heavy, heavy fuel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEUw1t8RcZ0 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Troubadour Date: 19 Dec 13 - 08:15 AM "I'll tell you what, I've just been picked up for slipping a plural into a singular statement." Strictly with tongue in cheek Musket. I have considerable respect for your posts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: kendall Date: 19 Dec 13 - 08:16 AM "Pre order" sounds pompous to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Troubadour Date: 19 Dec 13 - 08:21 AM "The idiomatic use of plural pronouns 'they', 'their', &c, to represent the clumsy & laborious 'he or she', 'his or hers', is generally recognised as acceptable," It's a good point, which hadn't occurred to me until Musket responded. True, you learn something new everyday, but as a lover of the English language, the necessity for mangling it so is anathema. With suitable expressions of contempt for the PC Brigade who made it necessary of course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Troubadour Date: 19 Dec 13 - 08:35 AM "Sat at the table staring at a fat bird who doesn't gobble any more." ROFLMAO! And you owe me a keyboard Musket! It didn't appreciate the hot tea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Lighter Date: 19 Dec 13 - 09:14 AM > With suitable expressions of contempt for the PC Brigade who made it necessary of course. Anybody who was a kid in the 1950s, at least in America, knows that singular "they" was in almost daily use when you didn't want to reveal the sex of the person referred to. [Note normal, sentence-final "preposition."] Ex.: "I have a friend and they said blah blah blah." If you mentioned he or she, that friend might be identifiable. The Germans, moreover, have had no problem over the centuries using one word (pronounced "zee") to mean you, she, *or* they. Make no mistake: linguistic evolution doesn't give a good ******* what you or I think is "correct." It goes its own way: compare Chaucer with Rowling. Every difference in usage, grammar, pronunciation, or spelling was once open to the charge of "corruption." I have my own pet peeves, but every day reminds me that they're not widely shared, and that's fine with me. The notorious "PC Brigade" would have no influence if others didn't want to follow its (occasionally absurd) prescriptions. The key to "good usage" is simply not to look like a lunkhead when you're trying to impress people favorably. And lunkheadedness is often subjective. "Language isn't logical. It's psychological." But it's all been said before. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 19 Dec 13 - 09:24 AM Ah, but Lighter, in German, the moment one adds the verb, one knows whether the subject is female or plural. For example, sie sind = they are, or Sie sind + you are (polite form) sie ist = she is They still of course have 'er ist' for he is. One of the things which makes me giggle every time is when one is making an appointment on the telephone and the receptionist asks, "What was the name?" as if I'm speaking from beyond the grave! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Ebbie Date: 19 Dec 13 - 12:06 PM "Sat at the table staring at a fat bird who doesn't gobble any more." Musket 18 Dec 4:14 am And what do you think she is looking at? :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: Tattie Bogle Date: 19 Dec 13 - 12:09 PM Back to the original topic: if pedants are to be damned, then what treatment should be meted out to bombastic pompous loudmouths such as SF in his tirade? Answers on a PC please (or a Mac will do!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Musket Date: 19 Dec 13 - 12:23 PM Ebbie. She is staring at Santa Claus of course. Because he only manages to come once a year. Although when he does, he fills her stockings...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Triplane Date: 19 Dec 13 - 01:00 PM Musket...... you should really by your own stockings A F |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: gnu Date: 19 Dec 13 - 06:39 PM Thank goodness the spirit of the thread as intended has been restored. Solder on says me! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 19 Dec 13 - 06:44 PM But, Eliza, if in German you simply want to make the pronoun impersonal [equivalent to French 'on', which is far broader in application & usage than our 'one'], you will say "Mann ist...". The response cited above by Troubadour at 0821 & attributed to Musket was actually mine. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 19 Dec 13 - 06:46 PM Musket ~~ He only comes once a year indeed: and then it's down the chimney... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Musket Date: 20 Dec 13 - 03:32 AM Yeah but she would prefer to see Santa come down the chimney than Wayne Rooney. He dribbles before he shoots. Ok this is a pedant thread. No law against crass innuendo though. Apart from which, other than a forty year old joke about Geoff Boycott being in all day, I've exhausted my knob gag bank. Oh hang on. Try this. Every time you crack one out a kitten is born. (Especially for our biblical literalists. ) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 20 Dec 13 - 12:46 PM Well, Michael, I think I'd actually say,"Man ist...", because (der) Mann is the word for man! (This is a pedants' thread after all.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: MGM·Lion Date: 20 Dec 13 - 02:33 PM Jawohl , Eliza. Oh, well, I sat my General School Certificate exam in German in 1948, & received a credit, enough for Matriculation exemption. (GCE? CSE? GCSE? What the hell are they?). As Louis MacNeice wrote so poignantly of the Ancient World — It was all so unimaginably different And all so long ago |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pedants be damned From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 20 Dec 13 - 04:56 PM You're right, Michael. Those days seem more like a former life than a memory. Weren't we lucky though to have received such an excellent education? I was from a traditional working-class family, yet was given the opportunity to go to Uni. My sis became a doctor and I a teacher. That's why we're pedants; we treasure our finely-tuned grasp of spelling, grammar and correct usage. I thank each and every one of my dedicated teachers from those far-off days. |
