BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater

Subject: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: John J
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 07:34 PM

Last night I drove over the Pennines to a Sam Smith's pub for an evening of singing village carols. As I was driving I had a pint of beer and at the start of the evening and then changed to tap water for the rest of the night. I was a bit shocked to be charged £2 for a pint of said H2O.

I queried this with the landlord/manager and he apologised, saying it was company policy.

A Humphrey own goal?

JJ

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 08:28 PM

It's illegal. Report them to the licencing board.

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 08:31 PM

I'm surprised it's legal, and not at all sure it is.

I found this on the site of the Consumer Council for Water:

"Do pubs and restaurants have to supply free tap water?

Yes if they serve alcohol. The government updated rules requiring establishments to have free tap water available wherever alcohol is sold, in an attempt to combat binge drinking. You can read more about the Home Office's latest guidance here. Failure to comply with any conditions attached to a licence or certificate is a criminal offence, which could be punishable by a fine or imprisonment or both. "

The law requiring this evidently came into force on 6th April 2010.

Shop the bastard!

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: Nick
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 05:02 AM

Here's a copy of the Mandatory Licensing Conditions 2010 that came in - The Licensing Act 2003 (Mandatory Licensing Conditions) - it's in paragraph 3.

Theoretically charging for the hire of a glass is not illegal though I'm pretty sure you would have to state this on your price list and I am pretty certain that there is no mention of this anywhere on their premises. I'll check when I visit one later.

Sad this wasn't raised earlier as I happened to bump into HS and spoke to him about 10 days ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 07:34 AM

take a tankard next time and challenge them.

There is an implied cost to providing a clean glass plus amortization of breakages but if you insisted on using the same glass that you bought beer in - I bet they would not have much legality in charging.

Having said that - a landlord is obliged by law to keep order in his pub and can evict anyone he deems a nuisance - and doesn't have to give a reason.

no good e-mailing them, they don't want feedback obviously contact them

I was aware of the law on dancing events and free water but not the alcohol aspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: Noreen
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 08:30 AM

Interesting.
I've just contacted the Royal, Dungworth to let them know that the signs I saw in the bar there yesterday saying tap water costs £1, the same as bottled water, are illegal.

I'll post back here if I get a reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 10:31 AM

My local doesn't charge for tap water - neither does it charge for soda water from the pump, or the slice of lemon and ice provided with the soda water.

Bless 'em!

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 10:46 AM

In the ordinary course of events I would be entirely on the side of the visitor to the pub, and against the landlord. But this is a rather special case, a little local pub that gets invaded once a year by folkies from far way, come to sample the simple peasant culture. In which case, I don't think it totally out of the way for the simple peasants to try to earn a bob or two from the transient blow-ins.

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 12:06 PM

Charging for tap water is kind of over the top, and it isn't legal in the US either (although I understand the place can charge for ice). But how about charging for inhabiting a seat? If everyone, or even 50% of the clientele, drank only water the pub would sink in pretty short order.

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: Nick
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 12:29 PM

The other possibility that no one seems to have considered is that this might have absolutely nothing to do with the brewery. It might be the pub taking an opportunity to contribute or increase their 5% surplus target or do a little freelance profiteering outside of the control of the brewery.

I usually blame HS as it usually is him but it might not be in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 01:08 PM

I kind of hope this is the landlord making a few bob on the side. It might be quite galling for him to see folkies driving over to see the indigenous culture, drinking tap water, and driving off. So, come to Penkhull instead, we don't mind being gawped at. The carol-singing is tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 07:36 PM

If you're driving off, even if you're a local, you're a fool if you've had more than say a pint and a half of beer. But if you"re spending a night singing your heart out in a pub you are likely to need a good bit more than a pint and a half of something.

Free water doesn't mean you don't drink. It just means it's easier not to drink more than you should.

I generally drink shandies in that situation, but that's because I don't like water by the pint.

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: selby
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 02:21 AM

I was under the impression that Sam Smiths pubs do not allow music in there pubs due to no music licences, therefore if music is allowed the landlord will have to get a temporary music license. Having said that if I had an influx of visitors, like the Royal at Dungworth, I would charge for everything I could. If I remeber correctly it is not to long ago that they where shopped by someone at Christmas, about fire regs and had to do alterations effectively just for the carols.
Business is business my dears.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 02:55 AM

Ah, then that's what's wrong with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 05:33 AM

If Sam Smith merged with Harry Fox and Celtic Music, think of the number of threads we'd save,not to mention kicking shoeleather!
RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 12:42 PM

where did this happen, was it in Yorkshire?'Hear all, see all, say nowt' or, 'If tha' ever does owt for nowt, allus make sure tha does it for tha sen' (= If you ever do anything for nothing, always make sure that you do it for yourself).

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 03:13 PM

Firstly I'm somewhat surprised that you went to a Sam Smiths pub for singing. I was of the understanding that music was not permitted in any of their pubs. Or perchance you went to a Sam Smiths pub after the singing.
If it's the first of these options the landlord/manager is probably sacked by now. Nice little present for Christmas for them and their family.
In terms of charging for a glass of water £2 does sound very expensive but the landlord does have to pay large overheads in order that the business can function. Rent, rates, taxes, electricity, gas, water rates, staff, fixtures and fittings, wear and tear ...... they all add up and it would seem reasonable that each customer should bear some of the cost. Or perchance you p****d him off?

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 03:26 PM

But, Raggy; it was nevertheless illegal, howsoever you try to rationalise it. I am sure that enough people will wish to drink what they would regard as proper 'drinks' to enable them to cover exes & emerge with a fair profit.

I was at a party the other night with a cash bar. I happen to dislike alcohol these days, and don't care greatly for sugary pop either; so I asked for a sparkling mineral water, my drink of choice nowadays, which I should have been happy to pay the market price for; but they only had still. I object to paying for what is in effect just bottled water which to my palate is indistinguishable from tap water whatever scientific guff they might put on the label; so I just asked for tap water and continued drinking that thru the evening. I am glad to say that they made no effort to charge me for it.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 03:52 PM

Re Ebbie's point above: not only do they not charge for water in any establishment in the US, but they bring you iced water as a matter of routine as soon as you sit at your table, and go on topping it up throughout the meal. I have never visited a restaurant of any size in the US where this didn't happen.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 05:52 PM

**Almost** every restaurant in the US. Here near DC, I have had to ask a few times.. but I think it is just laziness in cheaper places. It is never a problem when you DO ask. But then, I have not been to many states in recent years.

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 06:34 PM

"In terms of charging for a glass of water £2 does sound very expensive but the landlord does have to pay large overheads in order that the business can function. Rent, rates, taxes, electricity, gas, water rates, staff, fixtures and fittings, wear and tear ...... they all add up and it would seem reasonable that each customer should bear some of the cost"

So of course is he doesn't. Charge for a glass of water the place is going to be overrun by hordes of people drinking pints of the stuff all evening...

Somehow it don't seem too likely.

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 08:35 PM

MtheGM, you do indicate you are eating in the establishment when you get "free" iced water. If that is the case the proprietor is receiving some income from your time in the premises.

McGarth, I am sure you know a few (perhaps not many)people who rarely, if ever, part with any money when drinking in a pub. I do know one or two and have a degree of sympathy with the landlords of places they drink in. I do not suggest that pubs are going to be over-run with vast hordes of people demanding free water every night but a glass has to be provided and washed each time they have a drink, the staff have the serve them, they occupy a seat, they may use the toilet facilities, they enjoy the heating, the lighting. Is it unreasonable to ask them to contribute to the cost of these things?

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 08:44 PM

I should point out that I used to be the manager of a small venue in the centre of town. Numerous people, not clientele, used our toilet facilities on a regular basis, even daily. In the case of one woman in particular more than once a day. There were public facilities a few yards down the road. Of course the council charged for these facilities. Eventually I suggested to her that she should use the council facilities and received a torrent of abuse. I suppose my views are coloured by these events.

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:29 AM

Reminds me of an old Simpsons where the bar owner Mo asks the designated drivers to put their hands up, then kicks them out as he doesn't want any freeloaders clogging up his bar.

Anyway, Sam Smiths used to be a good pint as memory serves, but a pint of it I had a few months back would qualify as having to be freely available under the law....

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:50 AM

Many years, a few of us were drinking in my local one hot Saturday lunchtime - Phil, the landlord in those days, being a grumpy old devil who'd had the pub for nearly 40 years.

A hiker entered and asked Phil if he could have a glass of tapwater. Phil glared at him, put his pipe on the counter and reluctantly poured him a glass. The hiker drank the water and then asked if he could use the pub's toilet.

"Why not - ", replied Phil, "it's the only fucking thing I'll get out of you today!"

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 06:49 AM

Some sympathy for the Royal at Dungworth charging for tapwater. It would be frustrating to have a horde of people spending substantial time in the bar and using the facilities and only asking for tapwater to quench their thirst during singing.

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 12:25 PM

"I am sure you know a few (perhaps not many)people who rarely, if ever, part with any money when drinking in a pub. "

Of course. Generally beer drinkers.

I suppose if a landlord wants to risk a hefty fine, or losing his license, to get a few quid from a thirsty punter, that's his choice. But that shouldn't be a theoretical risk that doesn't materialise.

I imagine if it came to court he'd deny everything, and hope nobody recorded the incident...

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: Kampervan
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 12:55 PM

The regulations state that


'The responsible person shall ensure that free tap water is provided on request to customers where it is reasonably available.'

The definition of a customer is 'A person who buys goods or services from a shop or business.'

So, on the face of it, unless you buy something from a pub you are not a customer and therefor not entitled to free tap water.

A little pedantic, but this law is acknowledged to be a grey area (according to my wife who spent many years looking after licensing for our local brewery).

Besides which, as others have pointed out, the licensee does have lots of overheads to cover.

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: Nick
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 03:10 PM

If it's just one day a year (is it?) would you not garner more repeat business longer term by accepting it and being nice to people for a day rather than stinging them because they are a pain in the ass?

The 'let's take as much cash off of this lot because they are not coming back' is a self fulfilling prophecy

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: Nick
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 03:19 PM

>>The definition of a customer is 'A person who buys goods or services from a shop or business.'

So when I walk into a pub I'm not a customer until I transact business with money?

I used to work for an estate agent. If you treated people as not being customers because they hadn't given you money you would trade only as long as your pockets were long.

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 03:23 PM

If it's just one day a year (is it?) would you not garner more repeat business longer term by accepting it and being nice to people for a day rather than stinging them because they are a pain in the ass?
That's one view. The other is that if it's happening a lot then your regular customers who frequent the bar may be being stopped from getting their normal level of service, and might decide to drink elsewhere.
Here in the UK the smoking ban coincided with a reduced use of pubs. The argument before the ban was that if smoking was banned, more non-smokers would start using pubs. It doesn't seem to have happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: JHW
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 03:48 PM

I am sympathetic to pubs charging folkies for tap water as we don't drink like we used to and even drink the tap water slowly. Plus there are those who go to folk dos in pubs and take in their own drinks which is certainly not on. Pubs struggle enough these days and we must help them survive or we lose our venues.

Sam Smith's Colpitts Hotel in Durham was long the venue for the magnificent Durham FC. No more since Sams music ban but even before then they charged for tap water and there were those who stayed away for that reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 05:00 PM

That would have before the law came in that makes it a criminal offence to deny tap water.

Is the suggestion that until you've actually bought something yourself you aren't a customer? So if someone else buys you a drink you aren't allowed to use the loo? I can't see that standing up in any kind of commercial enterprise. In fact I can't imagine a commercial enterprise operating like that surviving too long.

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 05:16 PM

I don't think that was a new law, Kevin, but built on a longstanding one. My family were restaurateurs in the 50s-60s: my mother was resident director of Chez Cleo, a fashionable at the time French place in Harrington Gdns SW7, near Gloucester Road Station. It was certainly a condition of the licence that free water should be supplied to any diner on demand. I know it wasn't a pub, exactly, but I am pretty sure there was a similar requirement for a licence issued to any establishment by that licensing authority, and pretty-well universally nationwide.
I am sure that a long-established law is being broken here.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: John J
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 05:30 PM

Thanks for your replies folks.

Two of us visited the Travellers Rest in Oughtibridge, we go 2-3 times a year for the singing.

My friend was drinking alcohol all evening, I had 1 1/2 pints of Sam Smith's cask bitter before changing to water - because I was driving.

If it's company policy then the landlord is in a difficult position - all the more difficult considering he works for Humphrey Smith who acts as though he is above the law.

Not sure how to handle it - spread the word / speak to the local council....?

I don't want to drop the landlord in it because of Humphrey's ruling - in the eyes of the law it's the landlord who will carry the can.

JJ

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: jacqui.c
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 05:47 PM

The o.p. had, previously bought a pint of beer but, being a responsible driver, did not want another alcoholic drink. He was, therefore, a customer when he asked for water. Charging £2 for a glass of water is gouging. When my son ran pubs he told me that more money was made selling the fizzy drinks on tap. Cost pennies and the mark- up was incredible.

The landlord was obviously happy to have the music - it probably made money on what could be a quiet night. He, it would appear, was not worried about his locals on this occasion..

Subject: RE: BS: Sam Smith's charging for tapwater
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 06:22 PM

Jacqui,

John J has stated that he goes to the pub 2-3 times a year. (Dec 18th 05.30) I would think that most people would not consider him to be a "regular". His position as a customer who has already purchased his "quota" of beer would lend strength to his proposition that the landlord was "out of order" in charging him £2 for a pint of water and I can fully understand his chagrin.

A separate discussion should perhaps now ensue regarding the practice of using public houses without contributing to the financial wellbeing of the same.

Incidentally, and I sincerely hope I am incorrect in this, in naming the pub on a public forum he has possibly ensured that the licensee will be in serious trouble with the brewery and it's owner, who we know did/does not allow music in his establishments.