BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!

Subject: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 06:31 AM

How could she? When we all placed all our trust in her?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: banjoman
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 07:23 AM

Are you really surprised?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 07:50 AM

A bit like Blair and Iraq - anyone with half a brain knew it was lies all along.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: JHW
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 09:49 AM

Geordie's standing at the dole
While Mrs Thatcher like a fool
Complains about the price of coal

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 10:31 AM

Source? Reference?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 11:46 AM

Release of government documents under the 30 year rule.

JHWs verse is a paraphrase from the song ' Close The Coalhouse Door ' by Alex Glasgow.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Stu
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 11:48 AM

Liars? Unbelievable.

Not.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 02:18 PM

What Saint Maggie...lying through her teeth? Or trying to cut millions from Scotland without being found out? What a lying deceitful devious bitch...But to qualify that, not much worse than Bliar.(And of course the greedy, self centred politicians that have formed successive governments.)

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 02:29 PM

As a friend of mine says. The last honourable person to enter parliament was Guy Fawkes!

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 05:58 PM

For the benefit of one lonely USAians, what did Madame Thatch have to say about coal?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 05:59 PM

Or rather, coal mines?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 06:47 PM

The Blessed Margaret blamed the National Union of Mineworkers for screwing Ted Heath in 1972 and wanted revenge . Sadly , the NUM was led by Arthur Scargill who was just as Pig Headed as Maggie .

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 09:32 PM

Basically she denounced as wicked liars those who claimed that there were government plans for massive closures of coalmines. Government papers now released because of a rule that after 30 years that had to be have demonstrated beyond any question that such plans had been prepared, and this was the settled ambition of the government.

And that was precisely what happened after the strike by the miners had been defeated. There is now no coalmining industry in Britain.

True enough Tony Blair lied in his turn. Essentially he was a Thatcherite in this as in most other things.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 04:02 AM

I'm astonished that anyone could have the temerity to suggest that any British politician, let alone the most universally admired and revered Prime Minister the nation ever had the good fortune to have, would ever speak anything other than the absolute, unvarnished truth! It's inconceivable, surely?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Jon Heslop
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 09:56 AM

Backwoodsman, to answer your question, "No".

Q: How can you tell when a politician's telling lies?
A: Their lips move.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 10:36 AM

It was tongue in cheek. But you knew that, of course! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,allan conn
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 10:44 AM

Ebbie the miner's leader said that there were secret gvt plans to close 70 mines and put tens of thousands of miners out of work. Government spokesmen at the time denounced him as a liar. It turns out though that he in fact was completely correct. The same released gvt papers show that the same thatcher gvt was putting pressure on the then Scottish secretary and looking for ways to cut Scottish spending without informing the electorate

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: selby
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 10:50 AM

Politicians lying who would have thought it. Is it not the first course they go on when selected
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Stu
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 10:54 AM

I mean, she was happy to put 2/3 or Welsh miners out of work at a stroke. What a bleedin' charmer.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 11:14 AM

Leadfingers said it perfectly.

Regarding the 70-pits controversy, I don't understand the fuss, and didn't at the time. The plan (as now confirmed) was to close 70 pits over a three-year span at a time when (as a matter of fact) pits were already being closed at a rate of 20 a year.

Living three miles from a large and working deep mine, I should just correct McG to say that there IS a coal industry in Britain; it's just rather small.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: John J
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 12:16 PM

I am shocked.

JJ

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Ian Hendrie
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 12:51 PM

I'm sure the original poster had tongue in cheek when choosing their words for the thread title but one definition of a fib is 'an insignificant or childish lie'.

The lies told by the then government were far from insignificant and as to being childish, well, I think not. Except from the childish perspective of 'I can do what I like' and 'I don't know or don't care what the consequences are' and uncaring/unthinking cruelty to others.

I'll stop at that; I can feel my blood pressure rising!

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 08:06 PM

It would be interesting to see the material which is being relied upon to support the original premise of this discussion.
I'm not saying that it isn't available. But it may be being misconstrued.
On what basis is 'Big Al Whittle' stating that "Thatcher fibbed about coal mines"?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 08:30 PM

"Rather small" is true enough. Here's a graph showing what's happened

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 10:38 PM

As Pete Jennings suggested up the thread, it might have helped if the original post had included a reference. Belatedly, then...

BBC report.

It makes the point that the government was talking about closing 20 pits while at the same time secretly planning to close 75 - but over three years. Yes, there's a descrepancy, but it's not in the Belgrano category of Thatcher lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 10:56 PM

Forgot to say... Scroll right down at that link above for relevant documents and other interesting stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:17 AM

Watched a remarkable film entitled 'There is a Happy Land' last night, depicting the events surrounding the 1926 miners strike in Scotland.
It showed the army being used to suppress the strike, with the enthusiastic assistance the newly formed British Fascist Party.
The events shown where fully verified by interviews with some of the miners' families.
It's interesting to compare the use of the army against striking miners then and Scum Thatchers proposal (and possibly actual) use of the army against strikers 80-odd years later.
The film is a Scottish Theatre Workshop/BBC Scotland co-production - highly recommended, should it happen to gain wider release )some hope!!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:33 AM

Watched a remarkable film entitled 'There is a Happy Land' last night, depicting the events surrounding the 1926 miners strike in Scotland.
It showed the army being used to suppress the strike, with the enthusiastic assistance the newly formed British Fascist Party.
The events shown where fully verified by interviews with some of the miners' families.

"Fully verified by interviews with the miners' families"?
Clearly a 'balanced' report then.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 05:19 AM

The industry survived the cuts.
4 years later, the remaining pits were producing as much coal as before at a fraction of the cost.
The industry was destroyed later by Hestltine to reduce CO2 by switching to gas.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 05:28 AM

"Scum Thatcher" writes the egregious Carroll with his usual charm and moderation. However, turned out that the nation preferred her to Scum Scargill, didn't it?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 05:50 AM

When Peter Mandelson took over as Secretary of State For Northern Ireland, he was approached by Maggie Thatcher. She said, "I've got just one thing to say to you young man. You can't trust the Irish. They're liars, all of them. And don't you forget that." If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is.

You can of course ignore the vapid rantings of MTHEGM and his comments about "the nation" and its preferences. I don't recall the nation being offered the chance to express any preference either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 06:10 AM

Never takes long for the Thatcher apologists to chirp in, conveniently not mentioning that the facts now prove that Arthur Scargill was correct and Thatcher lied to the people of this country.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 06:16 AM

For once I agree with Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 06:45 AM

"Scum Thatcher" writes the egregious Carroll with his usual charm and moderation."
Difficult to be moderate about an elected prime minister who befriended, supported and held up as an example of democracy a mass murderer who slaughtered thousands of (mainly young) people - though sadly, I'm no longer surprised in your doing so.
What was it you once said - "she did some good" - just like Mussolini made the trains run on time?
There, but for the grace of democracy might have gone Britain if she hadn't been kicked out on her fascist arseum.
"Clearly a 'balanced' report then."
Beats Hitler-supporting Lord Rothermere's Daily Mail (which took the opposite view) hands down, doncha think Nigel - whose word would you take?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 07:11 AM

Don't know about the 1926 strike so it'd be interesting to hear more. It was though only 7 years after the 1919 strike in Glasgow which saw 12000 troops enter the city with tanks stationed in the Cattle Market and machine guns placed at post-offices and various hotels. So wouldn't be the first time!

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 07:21 AM

Can't recommend a book, sadly, because all the stuff I read on the GS has probably been out of print for years. But its importance in terms of working class history cannot be underestimated. I'd suggest you have a hunt and see what's out there.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 07:24 AM

The BBC clip below gives a brief descrition of the situation in Glasgow during the 1926 general strike. Thought it interesting that in 1919 (according to Tom Devine in The Scottish Nation) Scottish troops were used to quell the protesters with only Glaswegians confined to barracks. However accroding the clip below in 1926 English troops were deployed to Glasgow and Scottish Regiments were confined to barracks!


http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/history/modern_scotland/the_general_strike/

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 07:57 AM

Sorry Alan, I misread your earlier post as saying you weren't familiar with the history of the General Strike, rather than that you didn't know about troops being deployed.

In any case, the use of English troops to quell Scottish strikers is interesting. A typical case of divide and rule.

SFAIK, troops weren't deployed on Merseyside (which is where I'm from) during the GS, but they were on two similar occasions.

First of all in 1911, during the Liverpool Transport strike, troops and police injured over 350 people, plus there were a further two shot dead.

Again, in 1932, when the MacDonald coalition cut the dole, it led to riots in Birkenhead, which again led to the army being called out.

Here's a squib which Ewan MacColl wrote at the time.

Forward unemployed, forward unemployed,
Led by the NUWM,
We fight against the cuts again.
From fighting Birkenhead, we've learnt our lesson well.
We'lI send the National Government
And the means test all to Hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 08:13 AM

From contemporary accounts;

Glasgow strike - 1919
A Veteran Recalls:
I had come home wounded from France and (when my wounds healed) was sent back to the Seaforth Highlanders at Cromarty. We had no idea what was going on in Glasgow. But one morning the whole battallion was paraded and all men from Glasgow and district were told to come out to front of the parade. We thought that was us going to be demobbed but instead we were kept in Cromarty while all the rest (around 700 men) were sent to Glasgow to shoot if it were necessary.
Also ... Minutes of the War Cabinet Meeting, January 30th 1919 .........
Sir William Robertson continuing said that there were certain disadvantages in employing Scottish troops but on the whole he thought it would be safer to use them than to import English battallions.
Evening News - January 31st
The soldiers reached Queen St. Station shortly after ten o'clock ............. the long columns of khaki-clad men who belong to the Seaforths, the Gordons and other Highland regiments.

Soldiers had been used before against striker - notably in Tonypandy, where Churchill led troops against strikers - two dead were reported, but the Government refused to hold an enquiry.
Two striking railway workers were shot dead in Llanelli in 1911
An old and much loved Tory tradition it seems!
"Don't know about the 1926 strike so it'd be interesting to hear more."
See the film if you can - pm me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 09:15 AM

I read about Thatcher's secret plans to cut the Scottish budget which was reported in all the Scottish papers. She was frightened in case it gave ammunition to the Scottish Nationalist Party. I could not find any mention of this in the English press/media and wonder if their silence was for the same reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 09:26 AM

the vapid rantings of MTHEGM and his comments about "the nation" and its preferences. I don't recall the nation being offered the chance to express any preference either way.
.,,.
Oh, don't you, Fred? Memory so short that you have forgotten she was the only leader to win three [count them! 3!] elections hand-running thruout C20? If that was not the nation expressing a preference, then how would you define the terms, precisely? 'Vapid' right back 2u, my foolish fellow.

Best regards as ever. Have as happy a new year as that ingrained & habitual sour disposition of yours will admit, now ---

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 09:29 AM

Still, at least you didn't offer to punch me out this time. Things are improving to some extent, it would appear.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 09:55 AM

Jim Carroll:
"Clearly a 'balanced' report then."
Beats Hitler-supporting Lord Rothermere's Daily Mail (which took the opposite view) hands down, doncha think Nigel - whose word would you take?
In the matter being discussed, the film, and the comments of miners' families, only one side was being put. I did not have the option of choosing which side to believe.
That is what I meant by a lack of balanced reporting.

I will accept that the idea of 'balanced reporting' may be an alien concept to some.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 10:09 AM

You can of course ignore the vapid rantings of MTHEGM and his comments about "the nation" and its preferences. The closing of 75 mines was a dirty little well kept secret which never made its way out of cabinet, never mind onto the pages of the conservative manifesto.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 10:38 AM

Two of those elections were after that, McCormick, you unutterable booby. Why no just shut up your inenarrably stupid face before you make an even bigger fool of yourself than before?

As if, Fat Gob!....

You stay happy, now, you hear!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 10:45 AM

As I've said before, you can ignore the vapid rantings of MTHEGM. The above is proof, if any were needed, that he is a prime candidate for the funny farm and the straightjacket. A bit like his mentor in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 10:52 AM

I think he was telling you that it was not a secret after it happened.
Why does that make him "a prime candidate for" mental health treatment?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 11:04 AM

"I did not have the option of choosing which side to believe."
A matter of recorded history Nigel, and plenty of examples to back up that history - in Scotland, Lancashire and anywhere else working people defied establishment and employers.
These are not obscure incidents plucked out of ancient history - they are a matter of publicly accessible record, via press and trades union archives - should anybody be interested enough to access them.
In the first decade of the 20th century you had the somewhat farcical situation of the Liverpool City Police Force coming out on strike and being whipped into line by those constables who declined to take industrial action - still a subject of much hilarity to those aware of the City's history.   
Fortunately, today's technology records, preserves and makes accessible the behaviour of State employees who are ruthlessly used by governments.
One of the most vivid images of the miners strike for me is of a miner's wife about to have her head laid open by the baton of a mounted policeman at Orgreave - god bless democracy in action!!
I'm often amused by the silence that descends when the romance between Thatcher and Pinochet is mentioned, - justified, misinterpreted, invented or simply animal attraction - we really do need to know???
I believe Thatcher was the nearest Britain every got to electing a fascist head of state.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 11:15 AM

At least learn to spell, you pathetic truculent abusive little ignoramus McCormick.

It's 'straitjacket' not 'straightjacket'.

Threatened any more old people with violence lately, have you? And then denied it, you lying little swine?

Hope it keeps fine for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 11:39 AM

Keith A of Hartford. MtheGM's latest posting is further proof if further proof were needed, that he has fallen completely out of his tree.

As I recall it, MtheGM accused me of all people of being anti-semitic. Yes that's right. The very person who has been abused, spat at and threatened with physical violence by the anti-semitic far right. My retaliation to MtheGM was that, if we ever met I would give him an earful (or some such) that he wouldn't forget in a hurry.

I meant, and MtheGM knows that I meant, that I'd shout his bloody ears off. I did not mean that I would resort to violence. In point of fact though, I feel that recourse to violence would have been fully justified, following an insult like that.

Now, can we ignore the ridiculous Michael Grosvenor-Myer and his unceasing attempts to score points against anyone he dislikes and get back to the point of this thread. IE., the lies which Thatcher told over the pit closures and doubtless on many other subjects.

BTW., Regarding the state of emergency which Thatcher was ready to declare, and which would have involved the use of troops. There is a persistent story, I'm tempted to call it an urban legend, that some of the police on the picket lines were actually soldiers in police uniform.

I've always been inclined to dismiss this as unsubstantiated rumouring, on the grounds that even Thatcher couldn't have withstood the outcry if that one had got out. However, I was talking to someone who claims it has been reliably documented in a book about the miners' strike. Does anybody know the name of the book, or can furnish further information?