BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 01:42 AM

Though I should, I suppose, add for fairness that, as well as being IMO the most popular PM in my recollection, she was also simultaneously the most hated by other sections of the populace. Has any ever polarised opinion quite so sharply, I wonder? -- as demonstrated by the ∞-ty of threads about her, on this and pretty well every other forum, which, as we see right here, are still ongoing well over 20 years after she left office. Her impact, however one might view her personality, deeds, & achievements, is surely undeniable.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 12:54 AM

I should, of course, have written Poll Tax rather than Council Tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 14 - 12:43 AM

Oh, come on, Dick. We have had innumerable discussions over the years on these threads about how our constituency-based electoral system never produces a statistical majority government ~~ but literally never: I don't think a single instance was ever produced in argument, the nearest being the post WWii Labour lot which that fool Cripps ruined and brought down in short order at the next-but-one election, which had a nearly 50% showing in overall election votes cast nationwide. That just happens to be how our electoral system works, and any referendum, or other sort of attempt to replace it with PR or whatever, has failed every time. I could produce statistics similar to yours above to prove that "one can conclude from that that more people voted for the other 2 parties than [his] party,that is how the electoral system divides and rules, it shows that more people did not want [insert name of any British PM] as prime minister than actually wanted [him]".

I know this. You know this, for all your saying. You asked for facts. I gave you facts. I appreciate they were facts uncongenial to those on your side of the political spectrum; but facts they are nevertheless. So just accept them as such, please; and stop being so silly. You are making a fool of yourself in your endeavours to prove the unprovable. The main FACT, little as you may like it, is that, until she cocked up over the Council Tax, Margaret Thatcher was probably the most popular PM overall in British history, and her election record demonstrates it. Sorry if this meets with the disapproval of the great and distinguished Richard Miles. But such, as any unbiased observer must observe, are the FACTS.

BTW, re ollaimh's post above - Those like Richard who use 'bitch' of her, which assonates so well with 'Thatcher', always seem to me to adopt a tone of "hur-hur slurp" as they do so that always gives me the impression that they are typing it one-handed: it really does seem to do it for them in the oddest fashion!

Now please be quiet, Dick, before you make yourself look even sillier.

Best wishes

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 07:21 PM

but Michael How many people voted for her party in each election after as you put it "she got the better of him", and how many voted for the other 2 parties, was her election due to her overall popularity, or was it the nature of the electoral system, example in the 1983 election, Popular vote conservatives         13,012,316 labour        8,456,934 sdp alliance liberals        7,780,949 more people voted for the other two main parties than the conservatives.
same thing in 1987 election here
conservatives
13,760,935         – 0.2
        Labour         633         229         26         6         + 20         35.2         10,029,270         + 3.2
        SDP–Liberal Alliance         633         22         5         6         –           7,341,65
one can conclude from that that more people voted for the other 2 parties than her party,that is how the electoral system divides and rules, it shows that more people did not want her as prime minister that actually wanted her.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 05:06 PM

Why, the nation elected her twice more after she had got the better of him, as I have already remarked in that particular exchange with Mr You-Know-Who (6 Jan 0926 am).

What on earth are you doing, raking up that particular exchange at this time of day, Dick? We seem to me to have progressed far beyond that. Being a bit dozy [& a bit obsessive] aren't you? What's rocking your boat then, for crying out loud -- or, to mix the metaphor a bit, getting your knickers in such a twist? 'Booby'? 'Bounder'? Not like you to turn abusive & immoderate when you have been misunderstood for not expressing yourself clearly. Honestly, Dick: take a look at yourself. Cool it for crying out loud, before you do yourself an injury, or say something you'll regret.

Best

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 03:06 PM

MGM,are you a bigger booby than you are a bounder, I am refrring to Facts to illustrate that thatcher was more popular than scargill, with whom?, please be more specific, obviously Margaret was more popular with her family than Scargill was.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 10:11 AM

Nigel. I'm not making any excuses for Blair, but I recall that he told Parliament that Intelligence had led him to believe there were WMDs in Iraq. Hence he could claim that he had not knowingly misled anyone. Yes, I know, the buck stops here.........

But what defence could Thatcher have pulled out of the hat over the mines? "Nobody told me the real figure was 75 pits. I thought we were only going to close 20." Eh come on. Are you in charge of this country or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 09:02 AM

ie Happy -- not Hippy: tho that too if you like...

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 09:00 AM

Facts about what, Dick? Sorry, but the only fact I have for you is that I have not the remotest idea what you are on about.

Hppy New Year

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 08:53 AM

m gm FACTS PLEASE.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 08:51 AM

What I never understood about Blair was his conversion to Catholicism. How could someone who apparently believed his immortal soul and judgement day tell such a bloodstained horrible lie. All my friends said I was a fool to believe him. I guess I was one of the ones with half a brain.

some of the reason I did believe him though was the vile dishonesty of the Thatcher years. It wasn't just the mines and manufacturing industry - it was education, the beggars on the street, the hard drugs industry taking a hold, the national curriculum, the inflammatory rhetoric on Northern Ireland, fund holding GP's and all the other right wing bullshit she festooned around our country - all the time with this phoney patriotism droning on in the background.

I couldn't see an alternative to Blair.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 08:25 AM

lying to Parliament is a very serious business. Serious enough to have shaken the entire government out of office.
That doesn't seem to have worked for Blair, who told parliament that he had convincing proof of weapons of mass destruction!

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 05:46 AM

Stilly River Sage. Thanks for the link. I shall order a copy directly I've posted this.

A though crossed my mind last night, and it should have crossed long before. Namely that if Thatcher and co lied to the country about the extent of proposed closures, they must also have lied to Parliament. As everyone who lives in this country knows, lying to Parliament is a very serious business. Serious enough to have shaken the entire government out of office.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 05:32 AM

The bitch Thatcher lied and lied again. Her right wing cronies in the press repeated the lies. They, somewhat like another regime a little before in another land, fooled the public. One at least of her cronies (now on the run from reparation, in another land, lying to the courts) was involved in a calculated gerrymander for electoral advantage.

Maybe now that some of the truth is coming out, some of the forces of oppression who conspired at Orgreave to cause the innocent to be convicted will also get their belated desserts.

It is also interesting to see that the slur that we have been fed for so many years, namely that Scargill's battle was hopeless, was also a lie and that the bitches pussies in the cabinet were indeed very close to having to impose a 3 day week - like the one that eventually brought down Heath.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 04:21 AM

Thank you, MtheGM .
Allan, yes it was George Younger, proving that Scottish Secretaries, than and now, are Westminster's men in Scotland, not Scotland's men in Westminster.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 03:10 AM

"I could not find any mention of this in the English press/media and wonder if their silence was for the same reason."

What got me was that the then Scottish secretary (was it George Younger?) went along with the idea of hiding cuts from the Scottish people only objecting to how much was involved. Not because he objected to more being cut from the budget but because he gave a maximum figure which he felt could be cut without the other parties or the electorate detecting it. It then went to an argument because the gvt decided the amount should be much more than he recommended could be hidden. Talk about being underhanded and working against your own country!

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 02:21 AM

Next morning.

Yes, perhaps, looking back by the clear light of day, I did allow myself to get a bit hyperbolically annoyed. No, Jim, it wasn't drink or medication ~~ I have drunk no alcohol whatever for 12 years and take no pills or medicines. It was just that Mr McCormick & I are allergic to one another. Years ago, I objected to his having OPd a thread on the royal wedding with the statement that the very thought of it made him want to vomit; he took exception to my expressing the view that he was deficient in manners for saying so; and we have been unable to abide one another since. Whatever I post, however vanilla, he comes back with IMO an over-truculent overreaction (see eg his response to my first post above); I like a fool rise to the provocation; and Way O and away we go...

I hereby undertake to bring this sequence to a complete standstill by making a belated new year resolution to read no post with his name atop. I have no prescriptive rights over him, of course; but would just suggest he might be well advised to adopt a similar policy with regard to mine.

New Year Greetings to all

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 08:28 PM

God I love mudcat!

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 05:04 PM

MtheGM, we've had wee spats int the past but these recent exchanges with Fred McCormick look as if you've really lost the plot. Alcohol, pills, medication? Just lie down in a darkened room and take deep breaths.
Address the real issues of Thatcher's lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 05:02 PM

as you appear to be unable to do so I will quote to you hard times again'You are extremely deficient in your facts. Your acquaintance with figures is very limited. You are altogether backward, and below the mark

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:58 PM

MTHEGM, to paraphrase Gradgrind, Now what i want is facts, so please stop giving opinion, without backing up your statement with proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:04 PM

Seumas Milne - The Enemy Within: Thatcher's Secret War Against the Miners

A Google Book search - you can order it any number of ways as an out of print book or find in a library. Bookfinder.com

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 03:45 PM

michael grosvenor myer saidMy first contribution to this thread was a perfectly valid point about Thatcher's having received more support than Scargill. please provide proof or stats to back up this statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Libra
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 02:47 PM

He has already. Look back 3. Seems to be you who wont let go now

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 02:22 PM

Lynn and Peter K. Like I said, ignore him, just as you would an attention seeking brat. He's bound to go away eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 02:17 PM

well that has straightened that one out, e were getting into dire straits there we could have been expecting why worry next
Baby I see this world has made you sad
Some people can be bad
The things they do, the thing they say
But baby I'll wipe away those bitter tears
I'll chase away those restless jears
That turn your blue skies into grey

Why worry, there should be laughter after pain
There should be sunshine after rain
There things has always been the some
So why worry now

Baby when I'm down I turn to you
And you make sense of what I do
I know it isn't hard to say
Bat baby just when this world seems mean
Our love comes shining red and gold and cold
And all the rest is by the way

Why worry, there should be laughter after pain
There should be sunshine after rain
There things has always been the some
So why worry now

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 02:12 PM

A reminder, LynnH:

My first contribution to this thread was a perfectly valid point about Thatcher's having received more support than Scargill: to which the charming Mr McCormick saw fit, with no further provocation, to respond

"You can of course ignore the vapid rantings of MTHEGM"

I take it you know the French proverb about the "animal très méchant..."?

    Cet animal est tres méchant;
    Quand on l'attaque il se défend.
       (This animal is very malicious; when attacked it defends itself.)
      

However, I have done with responding to McC, having reached the point, so well summarised by the incomparable Jane Austen, of regarding him as too stupid to "deserve the compliment of rational opposition".

Thank you for your comment nevertheless: it is as well to be warned when one might jut be going a bit OTT.

Regards

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 01:27 PM

As far as MtheGM is concerned, could we please just accept that it's a difficult situation? Constantly goading him is not going to help. But he would lend his pedantry a bit more credibility by recognising that the English language is constantly evolving and there is no universal standard or authority governing English spelling. Shakespeare (AKA Shakspear, etc) and those who helped bring his work to the printed page sometimes spelt a word in different ways within a single play. GBS did not demean his writing one iota, nor cause any confusion of meanings, with his frequent departures from some widely recognised norms.

Straightjacket.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 01:25 PM

There is an excellent and very readable book by Catherine Paton Black called 'At The Coalface'. It's her autobiography of the Miners' Strike years, and an account of her husband's struggles to find work in Lanarkshire as a miner. He moved to Nottinghamshire and got a job underground at Bevercotes mine. When the whole pit went on strike (apart from a few 'scabs') she turned the pit canteen into a huge soup kitchen, and stridently supported the strikers facing police brutality.
The Strike divided families and caused terrible hardship and suffering. From my viewpoint, the life of a miner was terrible anyway. She gives some graphic and illuminating accounts of the conditions underground, dreadful accidents and grievous health problems of the men. Her whole life, and that of her husband, was one of backbreaking work, poverty, danger and despair. I was quite relieved when he found work above ground eventually, but his health was shot to pieces. If one reads this book, one has an insight into the political situation during those terrible times, and some inside views of Thatcher, the Police and the miners.

'At The Coalface' by Catherine Paton Black (publisher Headline)
ISBN -10 0755363256
ISBN-13 978-0755363254

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 01:24 PM

@MtheGM.......isn't it about time you grew up and stopped throwing little temper tantrums?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: selby
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:58 PM

I worked in a Power Station and we had a picket on the gate when the local bobbies where on duty they looked after each other. The met arrived, took over our mess room and treat us, the power station workers like plebs I have no repeat for the met what so ever.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:58 PM

And have you noticed that F McC seems to have a bondage kink, as well as a tendency to violence?

Just saying...

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:52 PM

MI5were involved in the 1973 miners strike as well Gormley was reporting back to them on union meetings.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:49 PM

... & learn to spell, ignoramus. Told you once --

'strait', as in narrow bit of sea &c, means narrow or restricted; as in 'straitened circumstances', meaning a lack of money.

So a restraining jacket is a 'strait' one; it isn't 'straight' in any sense, you pigheaded booby.

Just think, for once. And learn something without being so self-satisfied obstinate in your ignorance. Even the great McCormick doesn't know it all, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:42 PM

Ah diddums, Fweddie dear. Getting twoss, are we? Aaaaahhhhh!

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:20 PM

Like I said. an urgent candidate for the straightjacket. Just ignore the pillock.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:17 PM

GSS. Our British police are notorious for removing their ID under such circumstances. I don't know why because they can't possibly have anything to hide can they? After all, nobody at headquarters seems to mind, and it's dead handy when it comes to killing the odd innocent newspaper seller. So the fact that some of these geezers had no ID badges doesn't mean they were soldiers. It just unfortunately means they had no ID badges.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:15 PM

Oh dear!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:11 PM

McCormick's a liar
He knows he's a liar
Oh how dire
His pants are on fire.

Hope he doesn't burn his bollox too severely.

Peekaboo, Freddie poppet!

☠☺☠☺☠☺☠☺☠☺☠☺☠☺☠☺☠

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:08 PM

Ok. I've got it. The book is by Seumas Milne and is called The Enemy Within: Thatcher's Secret War Against the Miners, and it seems to be a pretty damning critique of the roles played by MI5, the Special Branch etc. Moreover, SM is a highly respected journalist which means that his conclusions are probably well substantiated.

Unfortunately, my local library doesn't keep a copy (shock, horror. Well I never!) and I don't feel I can justify buying any more books at the moment, especially having withstood the tides of Christmas. But if anybody can tell me what it says in relation to the allegation about soldiers in police uniforms, I'd be glad to know.

BTW., my local library may not carry SM's book, but they do carry a surprisingly large selection of books on or about or by her, including her autobiography.

They also stock a nice bit of entertaining late night reading by some Austrian or other called Adolf Hitler. let me see now. Ah yes, that was the name of it, Mein Kampf. Something about kampfing I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 11:50 AM

Fred, my late father County Councillor George Miles put up about a dozen kent miners in his house during the strike, I remember clearly the talk that a lot of the policemen did not have identification numbers, my father verified this,sorry cant help with the name of the book.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 11:39 AM

Keith A of Hartford. MtheGM's latest posting is further proof if further proof were needed, that he has fallen completely out of his tree.

As I recall it, MtheGM accused me of all people of being anti-semitic. Yes that's right. The very person who has been abused, spat at and threatened with physical violence by the anti-semitic far right. My retaliation to MtheGM was that, if we ever met I would give him an earful (or some such) that he wouldn't forget in a hurry.

I meant, and MtheGM knows that I meant, that I'd shout his bloody ears off. I did not mean that I would resort to violence. In point of fact though, I feel that recourse to violence would have been fully justified, following an insult like that.

Now, can we ignore the ridiculous Michael Grosvenor-Myer and his unceasing attempts to score points against anyone he dislikes and get back to the point of this thread. IE., the lies which Thatcher told over the pit closures and doubtless on many other subjects.

BTW., Regarding the state of emergency which Thatcher was ready to declare, and which would have involved the use of troops. There is a persistent story, I'm tempted to call it an urban legend, that some of the police on the picket lines were actually soldiers in police uniform.

I've always been inclined to dismiss this as unsubstantiated rumouring, on the grounds that even Thatcher couldn't have withstood the outcry if that one had got out. However, I was talking to someone who claims it has been reliably documented in a book about the miners' strike. Does anybody know the name of the book, or can furnish further information?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 11:15 AM

At least learn to spell, you pathetic truculent abusive little ignoramus McCormick.

It's 'straitjacket' not 'straightjacket'.

Threatened any more old people with violence lately, have you? And then denied it, you lying little swine?

Hope it keeps fine for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 11:04 AM

"I did not have the option of choosing which side to believe."
A matter of recorded history Nigel, and plenty of examples to back up that history - in Scotland, Lancashire and anywhere else working people defied establishment and employers.
These are not obscure incidents plucked out of ancient history - they are a matter of publicly accessible record, via press and trades union archives - should anybody be interested enough to access them.
In the first decade of the 20th century you had the somewhat farcical situation of the Liverpool City Police Force coming out on strike and being whipped into line by those constables who declined to take industrial action - still a subject of much hilarity to those aware of the City's history.   
Fortunately, today's technology records, preserves and makes accessible the behaviour of State employees who are ruthlessly used by governments.
One of the most vivid images of the miners strike for me is of a miner's wife about to have her head laid open by the baton of a mounted policeman at Orgreave - god bless democracy in action!!
I'm often amused by the silence that descends when the romance between Thatcher and Pinochet is mentioned, - justified, misinterpreted, invented or simply animal attraction - we really do need to know???
I believe Thatcher was the nearest Britain every got to electing a fascist head of state.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 10:52 AM

I think he was telling you that it was not a secret after it happened.
Why does that make him "a prime candidate for" mental health treatment?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 10:45 AM

As I've said before, you can ignore the vapid rantings of MTHEGM. The above is proof, if any were needed, that he is a prime candidate for the funny farm and the straightjacket. A bit like his mentor in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 10:38 AM

Two of those elections were after that, McCormick, you unutterable booby. Why no just shut up your inenarrably stupid face before you make an even bigger fool of yourself than before?

As if, Fat Gob!....

You stay happy, now, you hear!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 10:09 AM

You can of course ignore the vapid rantings of MTHEGM and his comments about "the nation" and its preferences. The closing of 75 mines was a dirty little well kept secret which never made its way out of cabinet, never mind onto the pages of the conservative manifesto.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 09:55 AM

Jim Carroll:
"Clearly a 'balanced' report then."
Beats Hitler-supporting Lord Rothermere's Daily Mail (which took the opposite view) hands down, doncha think Nigel - whose word would you take?
In the matter being discussed, the film, and the comments of miners' families, only one side was being put. I did not have the option of choosing which side to believe.
That is what I meant by a lack of balanced reporting.

I will accept that the idea of 'balanced reporting' may be an alien concept to some.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 09:29 AM

Still, at least you didn't offer to punch me out this time. Things are improving to some extent, it would appear.