BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland

Subject: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,michaelr
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 07:08 PM

Pretty funny.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 09:09 PM

Thank you, Michael. We are planning a third trip to Scotland this year. (Last time was 1994.) Scotland seemed like a rather formal country. Thanks for the heads-up on how things have changed.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Charmion
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 10:19 PM

The guy with his pants down seated on the chimney pot explains the odd smell of the central heating we encountered in a guest house in Edinburgh. Or perhaps it was the coal fires ...

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 12:09 AM

Scotland is really the nicest part of England.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 02:54 AM

I suppose if they get a yes vote, I'll miss paying for their welfare bills.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 05:59 AM

26. John MacKenzie.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 06:04 AM

27. ?   :0)

Don't worry Ian, we'll give you your nuclear weapons back!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 06:06 AM

Me and Judi went to Scotland in 2009. Drove all the way to Skye and back. I wouldn't say it rained a lot, but by the time we got home the car needed a new set of wiper blades. Apparently the scenery is spectacular.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 06:24 AM

Hmmm it may be a bit misty, but you don't need a diving suit tae get in yer back door.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 08:46 AM

Hehehehee!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 10:11 AM

whyte and mackay, glenlivet, grants, bells, talisker, jura,....

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 10:23 AM

Al, you forgot Irn Bru.

Also, the bar in The Edinburgh Thistle Hotel serves a cracking alcoholic dandelion and burdock. Good job because if you want decent beer, you have to go up millions of steps to get to The Malt Shovel.

Up there for a Royal College dinner later next month. I might add a few bits to the list on reflection. Deep fried curly wurly. ( battered) is a good contender. Far better than the Mars bar cited in the link.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 10:30 AM

Curly-wurly. Is that anything like ruta-baga?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 10:39 AM

This guy:

http://www.duffus.com/vid3geo.htm

(Blickifier seems to be indisposed.)

BTW, I made psychic contact with the Loch Ness Monster from the windy battlements of Urquhart Castle. And it's true: the bigger they are, the nicer they are.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: maeve
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 10:50 AM

leeneia-
http://www.oldtimecandy.com/curly-wurly.htm

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 11:33 AM

The Marathon Bar was not what became the Curly-Wurly here in the UK. The Marathon Bar was what is now known as the Snickers bar.

Two nations divided by a common confection..........   :-)

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 12:17 PM

sigh...Irn Bru...how I used to love that stuff when I lived Up There. And McEwans Heavy... and those delicious, greasy mutton pies with three holes in the top oozing fat... and white pudding suppers... and sweet stout...and hearing, "Hello hen!" and, "Dinnae knock yer pan in!" and Glasgow drunks LITERALLY lying in the gutter... and the Highland Man's Umbrella... and witnessing a Glasgow Kiss... and seeing buses go by with strange destinations on the front, such as Drumclog and Anniesland, and the teeny weeny little Underground trains made of wood... and Wee Windaes and the Covenanters' Tavern... Edinburgh and Glasgow each had their own distinctive character, both heavenly. Oh dear, I feel quite weepy.
PS Laughed like a drain at the 25 photos... tee hee!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 12:20 PM

Oh and I forgot middens, full of rubbish, rats and a resident tramp.
And 'goings-on' in the tenement closes.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 12:27 PM

So sad to see they no longer make curly wurlys. The trick was to not let them get too cold or the chocolate went brittle and fell off.

My deep fried one was in Leith circa 1979.   Last year in Leith I spent about as much on a meal as I used to spend on a car. (Tom Kitchin's restaurant.). Times change .

So has Leith.....

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 01:19 PM

Well I was going to say, "men without pants" but after the chimney pot and wedding gown reasons, I'm having a rethink.

We also will be in Scotland this summer. Another wonderful week in Minch View cottage which is located between Gairlock and Melvaig. Can't wait. I love Scotland and haven't been in several years.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: John J
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 03:42 PM

Well it's not for all the damned windfarms that are blighting the once-wonderully wild places. The Monadhliaths are about to be completely raped.


Have a read of this.


JJ

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 05:59 PM

They still make Curly wurleys. You can get them in the "Home Bargains" shop. (Also in England)

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 11:02 PM

'
They still make Curly wurleys'

yes it was a sad day when all this Brazilian and Californian nonsense started....

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 03:18 AM

They all taste the same once you get the wrapper off though Al.

They still make them! Next stop the shop! Time to cohort with the proletariat methinks.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 05:37 AM

Scottish tablet - rather like coconut ice, but without the coconut.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 05:57 AM

He's greeting! (ie He's crying!)
Sweets called 'sweeties', even by grown men.
Children munching on a 'piece' (ie a slice of bread, and jam if lucky)
A hundred different types of scones in bakers' shops, including potato scones. But fruit/vegetable shops as rare as hens' teeth.
Posh Morningside ladies having afternoon tea in Daly's. Their accent has to be heard to be believed. (Rather like Miss Jean Brodie, "Ai em in mai praim!")
Hearing Gallic spoken by cheuchters (people from the Highlands and Islands) interspersed with modern words in English, as there's no Gallic equivalent. And the Gallic psalms sung in a wailing type of plainsong led by a precentor. Spine-chilling.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 06:36 AM

Rite Liz, lee the psalms oot eh it....therr a wan of.

Hauntingly beautiful,as near tae real traditional music as yer gaunae get.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 08:43 AM

I agree, akenaton. I used to listen to the Gallic service on the radio every Sunday when I lived up there. It brought tears to my eyes, it was so beautiful. I've found one or two examples on Youtube. I only regret I never actually attended a Gallic service. Maybe one day...

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 10:54 AM

Eliza, don't you mean Gaelic (albeit pronounced "Gallic").
'Gallic' is a reference to the people and customs of France, surely?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 11:37 AM

I know, Backwoodsman, you're quite right, but I always (wrongly) spell it that way as I can hear the word in my head as spoken by the cheuchters I knew in Glasgow. I hate to hear folk pronounce it 'gaylick'!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 11:43 AM

> I hate to hear folk pronounce it 'gaylick'!

Because...?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 11:50 AM

It confuses it with Gaelic as (once) spoken in Ireland. They have the same roots but together with Welsh, have diverged quite a bit over the centuries (so I understand)

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 11:56 AM

I bought some curried Haggis in a tin from a shop on Princess Street that was brilliant and worth the endless barracking we got from the shopkeeper, who seemed to genuinely hate the English and made it plain (if he was joking, the joke wore pretty thin after 5 mins constant verbal assault).

Also:

Brew Dog Pubs

The National Museum (superb, great dinosaurs and two F1 cars and the Lewis chessmen too)

The best Weatherspoons ever (a huge ex-bank)

Haggis at a pub on Rose Street

The nooks and crannies of the city

Ace pubs

The festival (we were there for the last day)

Brilliant bookshops

Superb views

Listening to an organist practicing fugues when we we're in the cathedral

I could go on (and that's just Edinburgh . . . don't get me started on Inverness, Orkney, the Great Glen, the other glens, Oban etc etc)

Love the place.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 12:10 PM

and its "teuchters" if you want to be really insulting

A hang over from the lowland/highland feud, the Gaels have even more contempt for Lowland Scots, than they have for the English.

With very good historical reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 12:23 PM

When I was a boy the Gaelic culture was still active in South Argyll, I remember a few native Gaelic speaking families.
It was distinctly different from Lowland Scots or English in almost every aspect, I always thought the Clan System had more in common with The tribal systems of the American "Indians"

Capitalism killed it, like it does everything else of real value.
Gaelic speech has now retreated to the Outer Isles and the "culture" has gone, probably for ever.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 01:01 PM

On the way up to Skye, we had a great night in the Clachaig in Glencoe. Judi was sat opposite a window and she looked at me and said, "don't look now but there a bare-chested guy with chains in his nose coming in". Sure enough, a party of young men came in looking like real trouble. Ripped clothing, chains, tattoos, you name it. A bit later I went out for a smoke and guess who was out there? Yep, Mr. Chain Face. Turns out they were a bunch of doctors from Edinburgh on a weekend stag do. Had a bit of a laugh about their get up and we went back inside arm in arm.

The look on Judi's face was priceless...

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,John Mackenzie
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 01:14 PM

Thanks g.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 10:17 AM

You know here in these modern times I don't really recognise this Lowland versus Highland thing. To me it is much more of a seperation between urban and rural or even the industrial Central Belt and the others. I just think rural Scots in the Borders and for instance the Highlands or the north-east would find much common ground. More so than they may do with Glaswegians or folks from Edinburgh. Just my opinion. Likewise I know that originally the word 'teuchter' was aimed at Highlanders but nowadays it is often used simply to describe someone from the rural areas. I've been called them all by city folk. Teuchter, sheep shagger etc etc. We have similar terms for city folk especially Glaswegians. Gutter-snipes, keelies etc etc. England no doubt has a similar urban v rural thing.

I've certainly never had the piss taking in the Highlands when I open my mouth and speak that I have at times experienced in Glasgow or Edinburgh. Though admitteldy it is mostly reasonably good natured banter.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 11:03 AM

It's Princes Street, not Princess Street, BTW.
Apologies for the pedantry. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 11:38 AM

I know what you mean Allan and the feud has almost disappeared, but only because the culture of the Gael is in terminal decline.
I remember the old Gaelic culture in Argyll, or what was left of it, there was a nobility of spirit and pride in their heritage about even the poorest of these people that was never in the city dwellers or Lowland Scots

These words always summed it up for me.


High & Low by James H. Cousins


"He stumbled home from Clifden fair
With drunken song, and cheeks aglow.
Yet there was "something" in his air
That spoke of "kingship" long ago.
I sighed — and inly cried
With grief that one so high should fall so low.

He snatched a flower and sniffed its scent,
And waved it t'ward the sunset sky.
Some old sweet rapture through him went
And kindled in his bloodshot eye.
I turned — and inly burned
With joy that one so low should rise so high."

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 11:51 AM

I do hope no-one feels insulted by my use of the word teuchter (thank you for the spelling, akenaton!) I had two wonderful 'teuchter' friends in Glasgow, both from Skye, who spoke Gaelic (thank you for the spelling, Backwoodsman!) called Robina and Janet. It was they who actually taught me the word. Robina lived in my 'digs' and used to have a whole sheep carcass or a goose brought down from Skye by her crofter fiance, crammed into our oven and pressure-cooker (not the fiance, the sheep). Nearly everyone seemed to be called McInnes. Janet was a dear colleague at the school where I taught. Another friend, also Janet, was from Lewis. Her Gaelic had a slightly different accent. Robina held caelidhs in her room above mine. The guests would pass the whisky bottle round and sing about ninety verses of a song thumping the floor with their feet. My ceiling lamp used to swing in time to the music.
Oh, haggis! I absolutely adore haggis!
And the Lone Piper at the Edinburgh Tattoo. I used to literally sob loudly into my thick scarf.
My sis still lives near Perth, and my niece in Edinburgh. Must get the plane from Norwich up there this summer. (only 1hr 30 mins!)

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 11:58 AM

By the way, I feel another spelling lesson is about to arrive. I don't think I've got 'caelidh' quite right. Is it 'ceilidh'? Oh dear, don't grow old, your brain turns to mush!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 12:02 PM

My mistake, apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 12:06 PM

Lewis accent is wonderful, but more interesting is the Old Gaelic phraseology, which carried through to English speech, an example being the "weather", which CONTAINED the different elements.

The old ones would say "aye, therrs a cauld wind in it", or "therrs rain in it for the morn"
Lots of lovely playful irony in Gaelic/ English humour. Teasing and witty, wish the old ones could return!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 12:08 PM

Thanks Scotland, for sending some of you best abroad to North America, especiallynton New Scotland - AKA Nova Scotia, Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 12:13 PM

Cape Breton, N.S. - Nova Scotia is one of the few places worldwide where you still may hear the ancient Gaelic language. Late in the 19th century 100,000 residents of Cape Breton spoke Gaelic, today fewer than 1,000 speak it in the province, but there is renewed interest - you'll see it on signs, and it's even taught in highschool in Mabou. The Gaelic College of Celtic Arts and Crafts in St Ann's is devoted to preserving the language. The college began in a log cabin in 1939 and hosts more than a 1000 students each summer from around the world, who study the language, piping, fiddling, singing, dance, etc. Its Scottish Clans & Settlers museum is open to visitors. An annual Gaelic festival is held every August at Cape Breton's Christmas Island. At Antigonish, a gateway to Cape Breton, is Saint Francis Xavier University, the first university in North America to offer Scottish Gaelic studies. You can learn more about Scottish traditions at the annual mid-July Highand Games (celebrated since 1861). Photo by Lucy Izon

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 12:15 PM

Sorry, last post was a cut and past from a website. No photonwas included, as was indicated.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 12:26 PM

We had a Coffee, Bread and Cheese Folk Evening every Saturday in Edinburgh in my student days (talk about living dangerously) I was only seventeen and green as grass. Those Scottish songs used to fill my heart, they really did. 'Will Ye Go, Lassie Go?' and I was sobbing into my Uni scarf yet again. It was soaking after 'Shoals Of Herrin'. I must have spent every Sat night crying my heart out.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 01:00 PM

Yes Eliza, I shared your feelings back in the early sixties.
Chorus singing was very popular and provoked deep emotions.

Regarding the language Ed, even here in Scotland, attempts to resurrect the "language" are bound to fail as the society and culture which supported it have vanished. The language was of the people, and the people are now only caricatures of the ancient race.

Perhaps with Independence, we can regain some national pride, but "ah hae mah doots"

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 02:21 PM

The American South has no "national independence" but plenty of "national" pride.

Some might say too much.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 02:58 PM

I fear that if independence goes forward, they won't be able afford Mother's Pride, let alone national pride.

Before anyone goes off on one, I am saddened by the concept rather than mocking it. To think that as the world gets smaller, global communication and joint efforts, sometimes misplaced, to cure ills and promote harmony encouraged by all... Attempts at parochial nationalism just don't fit the mould.

If Salmond and his mates convince enough people, I won't be laughing at the eventual predicament, I shall be a sad onlooker. Not much GDP in service industries...... Seriously reviewing the property portfolio. I used to think Edinburgh was rock solid but the student accommodation in Morningside has actually gone down in value over the last two years. Fears for the economy then aren't exactly groundless. Not worried for my beer fund, that can look after itself. Just concerned for a place I spend lots of time in and used to call home for a short while years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:10 PM

Don't be sad Ian, I TOLD you we'd give you your nukes back!
Find somewhere else to dump them.

No more adventures in unwinnable wars for Johnny Bull.

"Broken faimlies in lan's we've harried, will curse "Scotlan' the Brave" nae mair, nae, mair."

"Freedom comeallye!" Hamish Henderson.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:34 PM

> No more adventures in unwinnable wars for Johnny Bull.

I hadn't heard that Britain's gone back to conscription....

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 07:05 PM

"but only because the culture of the Gael is in terminal decline." It is of course true that Gaelic (as well as Scots)language culture has declined but there is of course another factor also. I'd imagine that a pretty hefty proportion of folk in the Lowlands are at least of part Highland extraction. For instance my own paternal ancestors came from the Highlands in the late 18thC early 19thC. The Lowlands are filled with Highland names and those who haven't got Highland names probably have Highland ancestors at least somewhere in the female line. There simply isn't really a them and us.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 07:28 PM

"Late in the 19th century 100,000 residents of Cape Breton spoke Gaelic, today fewer than 1,000 speak it in the province," I often wonder about the figures banded about and isn't it true that the Canadian census doesn't even differentiate between Scottish Gaelic and Irish Gaelic. I know wiki gives the figure as between 500 and 1,000 but for instance the attached Nova Scotian site suggests there are less than 500 speakers of Scottish Gaelic left in the whole of Nova Scotia - never mind just Cape Breton. hence if that is so Nova Scotia has a lot less Gaelic speakers per head than even the most un-Gaelic parts of Scotland like the Borders and Northern Isles. Though it is great that the language is still spoken there it probably is true that the only place where Gaelic is a viable community language is in the Western Isles of Scotland.

"Today there are estimated to be less than 500 native Gaelic speakers in Nova Scotia, many of these seniors in the community; whereas 100 years ago there were over 50,000 native speakers. In 1901, Gaelic speakers in some areas of eastern Nova Scotia, particularly in over half of Cape Breton, Gaelic speakers comprised 75 to 100 percent of the population."

https://www.novascotia.ca/oga/pubs/GaelicStrategy-English.pdf


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 07:56 PM

Additional info. from the N.S. Office of Gaelic Affairs:

gaelic in Nova Scotia 

""It is difficult to determine the total number of Gaelic speakers in the province (Nova Scotia) because no formal census specific to the Gaelic community has ever been done. Estimates from the community indicate that there are approximately 2000 speakers of Gaelic. While the numbers of speakers indicates a perilous position for the language, some 227,000 Nova Scotians claim to be descended from Gaelic speaking settlers and a much larger number of Nova Scotians are involved in cultural activities, such as music, song and dance, which stem from the Gaelic language. The Gaelic Nova Scotia study links a $23 million economy with Gaelic and Gaelic-related events, business and activities in the province.

There are 28 Gaelic-related societies, organizations and institutions in the province. Gaelic language instruction is offered in six schools in the province at varying levels. Gaelic Studies is offered in 15 schools and is expanding. There are nine communities across the province were adult immersion learning programs are active and ongoing.""

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 02:55 AM

Again though it depends on what you mean by Gaelic speaker. Re the link below figures supposedly from the Canadian Census

"2. Gaelic in Nova Scotia It is estimated that there are now less than 500 native speakers of Gaelic in Nova Scotia (Gaelic Development Steering Group, 2004, 10; the 2001 Canadian census indicated that there were 415 native speakers of 'Gaelic languages' (which would
presumably include Irish) in Nova Scotia: www.statscan.ca), although this number is supplemented somewhat by people who have learned Gaelic as a second language"

So the figures about 500 actually means there are 415 native speakers of a Gaelic language - and as I previously said the Canadian census does not differentiate between Scottish and Irish Gaelic so the 415 includes any Irish speakers there. When talking about a language community you are generally talking about native speakers. The higher figures which the site you posted suggests no doubt includes people who have learned a wee bit of Gaelic perhaps out of interest perhaps some are pretty fluid. But it isn't the same! I know quite a few people here who learned French and speak it to a reasonable level but wouldn't suggest they are part of a French speaking community in Scotland.

All I'm saying is that on the net you often get people suggesting Nova Scotia is somehow a bastion of Gaelic but the actual figures just don't back it up. Even if there actually 2000 native speakers left it would still only be a small fraction of the Gaelic community in Scotland itself. In truth there are wee parishes in the Western Isles which have more Gaelic speakers than there are in the whole of Nova Scotia.

In Scotland itself within the Gaelic activists (as there was within Scots activists) there were two viewpoints. Some argued that shwoing the real decline gave more emphasis to the need for funding etc. Others argued that by including your Auntie Jessie and her mates who went to a few Gaelic lessons as Gaelic speakers then by exaggerating the numbers you could claim that the community is bigger than it is hence you could argue for more funding.

Personally I support funding for Gaelic but not necessarily how the money is spent. It should be aimed specifically at the heartland and not wasted on window dressing elsewhere in Scotland. In Scotland too some fool themselves. They celebrate the fact that speakers have increased in Edinburgh etc whilst real native speakers in the heartlands continue to decline.

https://www.novascotia.ca/oga/pubs/Minority_Language_Renewal_Gaelic_In_Nova_Scotia.pdf


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 04:22 AM

There must be some form of revival in Gaelic going on as BBC Alba, which I can get down here in London, has kiddies' programs such as Bob the Builder, Thomas the Tank Engine, Peppa Pig and many more all in Gaelic. I was born in Paisley and my father's family came from Mull. My Grandfather spoke Gaelic and, funnily enough, the Mod was held in Paisley this year!
By the way, don't rise to Musket's doom and gloom rants. Have a look at the BBC's website on Scotland's economy. GDP is almost identical with England's and that's without oil and gas revenues. Looking forward to a happy and prosperous New Year and I mean 2015.

The Royal National Mòd (Scottish Gaelic: Am Mòd Nàiseanta Rìoghail) is the most important of several major Mòds that are held annually, mostly in Scotland. It is the main festival of Scottish Gaelic literature, song, arts and culture, and one of the more notable peripatetic cultural festivals in Scotland. It is often referred to simply as the Mòd.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 05:28 AM

I agree with most of the points made by Jim and Allan, but the important point surely is that "the language" was part and parcel of a culture which is no more, a semi tribal culture, based on self sufficiency, a culture that even today could be made sustainable; whereas our present day culture of materialism, consumerism and waste, will be fortunate to survive another few decades.
The never ending search for "energy" will see to that.

I don't see that resurrection of the language in isolation will do any good at all, as most folks today have no understanding of the type of society to which it belonged.
The crofters and fishermen, blacksmiths, masons and their wives and children that I remember were poor in monetary terms, but their heritage of music, stories and "life wisdom" went back a thousand years.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 05:30 AM

There is Jim but the problem is when you look closer at the figures is it the type of revival which is going to halt the decline in native Gaelic speakers? Much of it is window dressing.

The GRO for Scotland site has some pretty detailed stats on the language and reading them more closely shows the problems. For instance between 1991 and 2001 the amount of people who said they could read Gaelic rose by 7% - however the amount who could actually speak it fell by 11%. The number of 5 to 9 year olds who could speak Gaelic rose in the same period - however the figures actually fell in the Gaelic heartlands of Eilean Siar and Skye & Lochalsh. A telling stat is that when both partners are Gaelic speakers you end up with 75% of their children being Gaelic speakers but if only one parent is a Gaelic speaker then only 25% of the children are Gaelic speakers.

It seems obvious that the only way to truly ensure the decline of Gaelic is to halt its decline in its own heartland. Someone, quite often an incomer to Scotland, putting their kids through Gaelic Medium Education in Edinburgh or somewhere else isn't in the long run going to replace another Gaelic speaker lost in the languages stronghold. They should encourage and make it easier for people in the Highlands and Hebrides to put their kids through Gaelic Medium Education and (I know the Highlands are like the Borders in that youngsters will often want to leave for better opportunities) have some real economic regeneration on the islands and western seaboard so there is more opportunity to stay if they want to.

As to gvt strategy! Making the like of Borders General Hospital and other institutions like that throughout Scotland have Gaelic Language Plans etc is silly and probably counter productive anyway. Protecting a langauge in an area where there is no significant community of speakers; where there is no need and no call for the said measures; whilst at the same time ignoring the actual language of that area just doesn't make sense. We should have a single language plan for all of Scotland taking into account both of Scotland's languages and properly earmarking funds rather than wasting them. Just a high horse thing :-)

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 05:45 AM

I suspect when the Cdn cencus refers to "native speakers" it refers to a response to a question like, what is your "mother tongue" rather than one that makes some attempt to determine the level of proficiency. I believe it is an attempt to get a general idea of changes in the countries language profile (in particular the French-English mix) rather than be an accurate refection of languages spoken. I suspect the more local provincial estimate may make a more genuine attempt at doing an estimate from their contacts with local sources for info- though there is no accurate figures.

Personally, I know many French speakers who have a greater command of French than those classified as "native speakers" by Statistics Canada's Census-but would not be captured by the Census, as the first language they spoke was not French. It is likely a similar situation - though all one can do is speculate (from either angle) as only indirect numbers have been captured.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 07:00 AM

I think, though, that a learning or relearning of Gaelic will allow an understanding and appreciation of Gaelic literature and song which cannot be anything but good. BBC Alba has some very interesting programs (with English subtitles) and great traditional music and song.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 07:11 AM

Quite agree with you Jim. I'm not in any way saying that someone for instance learning Gaelic in Duns or Kelso is a bad thing so apologise if it kind of comes across as that. It's just that a new Gaelic speaker in kelso does not replace a native Gaelic speaker being lost in the actual Gaelic speaking community. And that, or something like that, is what seems to be happening. The language can only truly survive if native speakers hold on to it.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 07:38 AM

"The language can only truly survive if native speakers hold on to it."

That seems to be the single-approach-theory in Canada, as it relates to French (outside of Quebec and New Brunswick, that is). In that case, concerns with cultural loss are inter-twined with concerns with loss of language. IMO, investing all energies on one theory-approach seems odd, especially when opportunities exist to look at multi-approaches to reduce a total loss through investments in new speakers. But, that seems to miss the purists who cling to the cultural past, whi tend to under value the potential of new approaches.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 08:12 AM

The other NS gvt post I posted said there were less than 500 people in Nova Scotia who spoke Gaelic as a native tongue. That is they learned and speak Gaelic in the home. This of course is only a tiny fraction compared with Scotland. The url below claims there is a total of between 1000 and 2000 people in Nova Scotia who are either native Gaelic speakers or are learners. That is they know Gaelic to some degree. Even if you take the higher figure (so doubling what it might actually be) and ignore the fact that they don't differentiate between Irish and Scottish Gaelic the figures for NS as a whole are still small compared to Scotland. The higher figure is only 0.216% of the Nova Scotia population. There were 78,402 people in Scotland who could either read, write,speak or understand Gaelic which amounts to about 1.537% of the population. The figure for the Scottish Borders, which is one of the places with the least amount of Gaelic speakers, is 0.6%. Hence taking the two NS estimates the Scottish Borders has somehwere between about 5 times to 3 times the amount of Gaelic speakers/learners per head of population that NS does.   

I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing just pointing out the reality!!

http://www.novascotia.ca/cch/stories/gaelic-spirit/?Lang=EN

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 08:23 AM

"But, that seems to miss the purists who cling to the cultural past, whi tend to under value the potential of new approaches."

No it is realistic. Someone learning a bit of Gaelic at a Kelso night school who may never even get the chance to speak with others much outside their class is not replacing a genuine Gaelic speaker living within the Gaelic community. That is common sense. Likewise a kid learning the language for a couple of years in an Edinburgh school then again never much using the language again after that does not replace a genuine Gaelic speaker being lost. It depends on whether you see a language as a living community language or as a relic for hobbysits. No doubt it can be both. No harm in that but I see the living language as of vital importance. It is still a credible living community language in the Western Isles. That is the point!!! As I pointed out before if one parent speaks gaelic then it is only passed on to 25% of their children. For it to survive as a living, working, community language it must survive in families in the community.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 09:03 AM

> For it to survive as a living, working, community language it must survive in families in the community.

Very true. But when families find some other language is more conducive to the lives they wish to live, they discard the old one.

That's true everywhere.

Hebrew was quickly and successfully resurrected as a living, everyday language in Israel because immigrants wanted to speak it as part of a new Hebrew-speaking community.

So language resurrection can happen, but only if large numbers of eager speakers want it to.

After nearly a hundred years of vigorous government and private promotion of Irish Gaelic, English remains the overwhelmingly preferred everyday language in the Republic of Ireland.

Because people would rather speak English.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 09:04 AM

Eliza, above, mentioned those greasy, mutton pies. I order them every now and again from here

Crombies of Edinburgh
97 - 101 Broughton Street
EH1 3RZ Edinburgh
United Kingdom
[e-mail]

They deliver direct to me in London, they phone to make sure you'll be in and the delivery comes in a cool box. Excellent service, 12 plus expensive postage cost about £23.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 10:22 AM

As to my reference to French in Canada, (outside Quebec and New Brunswick) there is a clear decline in children of francophones taking it up as their first language (likely because of the lure of English in society). However, that does not mean that there are not fully bilingual speakers who have learned it in schools. However, "the purists" dismiss these folks,-although many have a better command of French than the francophones- as they do not add to a desire among some to "save the culture". I suspect some of those factors may also be in play (though possibly to a lesser degree) when it comes to Gaelic. However,like many, I am not directly involved and am speculating from past observations (and also my sense, which may or not be common:).

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 12:04 PM

Last post was me

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 12:18 PM

Jim, thank you very much! I had a boyfriend called Crombie when in Edinburgh. I wonder if he opened a pie-shop? And if I received 12 at a time, I just know I'd eat the blooming lot in one go and end up on one of those obese TV shows!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 08:08 PM

...well, where to start? incredible string band,anyone? john martyn (yes, i know...) karine polwart? michael marra? celtic? road to applecross. applecross. scotia bar. celtic connections festival, from where we have just returned - glasgow wonderful and life-affirming as ever. for those of you exiles who miss it, get radio scotland on this machine - always good in the evenings with the folk, jazz and country and old hippy or new singer songwriters music. and if you don't think scotland could prosper without the posh boy millionaire westminster robbers - well, you havn't been there for many years. this is a thriving, confident and politically advanced nation. we don't need your american bombs or racist, little england shite. and get used to the name siobhan wilson.....

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 02:50 AM

Would be a noble abd interesting experiment to see scotland go independent

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 04:35 AM

By the way, Alistair Darling is also a posh, Westminter boy. He was born in London and educated at the private school Loretto.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 04:51 AM

Aye and Bonny Prince Charlie was French....

Not wanting to drag this down to argument over independence but if you can't make a case on merit, peoples' background is a bit desperate isn't it? I note the large Polish community in the Edinburgh suburbs have been out forward by Salmond as a shining example of Scottish inclusiveness. Are you saying they shouldn't either vote nor influence then? Darling is a politician involved in the Scottish debate, with a Scottish constituency he democratically represents.

Adam Smith. Now there's a Scottish bloke.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 06:44 AM

Regarding the Mod, when I lived 'up there', I'm sure I remember a little Indian or Pakistani girl winning the children's recitation section. Her Gaelic was beautiful and her delivery perfect. I also seem to remember a bit of controversy (ie racism!) about it. In those days, there were dozens of enterprising immigrant families opening grocery stores and running grocery delivery vans around the Isles. Good for her, I say.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 07:09 AM

As I type this there's a haggis in the oven, should be ready in an hour. Get in!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 07:21 AM

Musket makes the point, correctly, that it's the people who live and work in Scotland, irrespective of nationality, who are able to vote for the future of Scotland. I was merely pointing out that the 'posh Westminster, privately educated boys' pejoratively described by Labour and the SNP are not all English, Scotland has it's share.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 09:57 AM

> people who live and work in Scotland, irrespective of nationality

And who have no sentimental attachment to a fortunately superseded and innately tyrannical clan system.

BTW, why would Scottish independence be such a "noble and interesting experiment"? The American Revolution replaced overseas, dictatorial colonial rule with constitutional democracy. Is that the sort of improvement that Scottish independence would bring?

Just asking.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 09:58 AM

I totally agree with you Lighter. You can give a language a fair deal and a level playing field but that doesn't mean you force it on anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 10:02 AM

I think the difference between Gaelic and French is that the French language itself is not in danger of extinction as a living community language anytime soon. Hence me harping on about losing native speakers of Gaelic.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 10:46 AM

"By the way, Alistair Darling is also a posh, Westminter boy."

Does being born somewhere apart from Scotland make him any less Scottish if he considers Scotland home?

Not trying to start an argument, just wondering where we draw the line when regarding someone has having an equal voice in the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 10:47 AM

Stu, read my previous post.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 11:04 AM

I agree, Allan. I hated to see Cornish go. But that doesn't mean there would be any benefit in trying to resurrect it that would override the expense, inconvenience, and (let's face it) isolating and exclusionary effect of having everybody in Cornwall speaking it.

The world requires easier and more understandable communication, not less.

It always has, but the need in the eighteenth century was presumably less urgent.

It would be cool to be fluent in Pictish. But beyond that, why bother?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 12:19 PM

Yer welcome, G.

Very interesting discussion! A lot of great comments and knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 06:06 PM

"Aye and Bonny Prince Charlie was French...." Wasn't he more British/Italian on his father's side and Polish/German on his mother's side. Born and brought up in Italy. Certainly when he refused to carry on with the rising Lord Elcho (I think) supposedly shouted something like "there you go for a damned Italian coward"

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 04:41 AM

I recall having to know a bit about him for a history paper forty years ago, and yes, the mixed (inbred) lineage is something I do remember for some obscure reason.

My "French" accusation was based on a combination of where he plotted and that as a result, for many years, French and Foreign were colloquially interchangeable. Lampooning of him by the English at the time seemed, according to what I recall being told, his Italian attributes when pointing out his diminutive size and French when questioning his sexuality.

Xenophobia seems to have a noble tradition......

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 05:25 AM

I have no doubt that gaelic will and likely has ended as being a language of the people. I suspect its future willn take a different path. If it survives in some form, I suspsct the main hope if through new and different routes than in the past,

There are abiriginal (First Nations) languages that have been very close to being lost. T
Fortunately, through interest from academics, strives have been made to save these languages, and new interest and pride in those communities to encourage their use, even with the lure of the dominant English language. Will there be long term success?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 05:58 AM

on the other hand

its cold
when its not cold you get bitten by midges
it rains a lot
its a long way away
they talk a bit funny

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 07:02 AM

Climbing the Waverley Steps from the station, the wind whistles through you like a knife. If you can survive that, you'll manage to withstand the cold. If not, turn round and get the next train south!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 08:24 AM

Scotland in the historical period has always been multi-lingual so we haven't really had a language 'of the people' probably until the modern period when Scottish Standard English is certainly understood by virtually everyone bar some new immigrants. So I never suggested that Gaelic was or should be the language of the people. However in certain communities it still is a living vibrant language. For instance in Eilean Siar 18,423 out of 25,745 people have Gaelic language ability according to the 2001 census. The number of people with the language dropped from 19,738 in the 10 years since the 1991 census. However this wasn't necessarily down to a drop in speakers per head of population. It was as likely down to a drop in the population from 28,569. There is a new Highland Clearance going on as people head elsewhere looking for opportunities. All I'm saying is a real regeneration of Scotland's rural areas including the Gaelic speaking areas enabling people more easily to stay in their locality would help with the preservation of the language as a living community language rather than it being an academic subject only or a hobby. The same goes for other areas etc. I know people who can't get away from the Borders quick enough but I've known plenty of others who'd have loved to have stayed had they the opportunity for work.

Some might say why bother? That is fair enough. Why bother trying to preserve the panda? Or ancient buildings etc? You either think something is worth the saving or you don't!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: bubblyrat
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 08:48 AM

I still have fond and vivid memories of travelling up to Arbroath on the night sleeper train ( to play at a military band contest at HMS Condor) , and being at anchor off Lossiemouth ,and going ashore for a pint or two in "The Steamboat" , and passing the Old Man Of Hoy early on a summer's morning , aboard aircraft carrier HMS Eagle (1967/68 ).Visiting Edinburgh by sea was different , too ; we (and Canadian carrier HMCS Bonaventure ) secured to buoys below the Forth Bridge ,and "libertymen" were landed by Fleet Tender at South Queensferry . I shall refrain from commenting too deeply on Danube Street ,but it was interesting (architecturally , of course ).

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 09:10 AM

Well, if you breed pandas, you get pandas. If you preserve ancient buildings, you have the buildings.

And people from all over can enjoy the pandas and the buildings.

But if you encourage a population to learn and speak a complex language they know little about and have little practical use for, you'll simply annoy most of them. In the long run you may get some great works of literature, but the writers of that literature would presumably write it anyway - except it would be in the other language.

And if you do succeed in re-establishing the language in a serious way, you'll have set up one more barrier, limited or not, between one ethnicity and everyone else in the world. Is it worth it?

I'm completely in favor of teaching moribund languages as an educational elective for interested students: that's how it's done with Latin, which is arguably deader than Gaelic. And it's deader
despite the efforts of the Vatican, which keeps coming up with cumbersome "New Latin" terms for things like smart phones.

But using limited funds and class time to train a nation to fluency in a new language that few feel a need for, and then expect them to speak it every day, sounds like a romantic-nationalist (even reactionary) fantasy offering few advantages to anyone but hobbyists and the makers of textbooks.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 10:24 AM

I agree, Lighter, that language evolves naturally, and by means of actual speakers. One can't force it; it either survives, changes or dies. But Latin is a different matter. It isn't completely 'dead' in that it forms the basis of all the Romance languages and a good proportion of English too. Understanding the meaning of Latin 'root' words and word-parts helps us increase our vocabulary. I chose to study French, Linguistics and Phonetics at Edinburgh Uni, and to my horror (and that of my teachers) we found Latin 'O' level was de rigeur in order to be accepted on the course. (The old 'Attestation of Fitness') I spent my 2 yrs in the sixth form cramming Latin and wading through Caesar's Gallic Wars. But I'm so glad I did. It's amazing how it's helped me in many literary matters. But regarding actually enforcing a spoken but dying lingo, well you can't! Interesting to know what people here think of the situation in Wales, where, I understand, it's pushed to the fore in schools and in the media etc.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 10:28 AM

"But if you encourage a population to learn and speak a complex language they know little about and have little practical use for, you'll simply annoy most of them."

Except I'm not suggesting that people are encouraged to learn and speak any language. Actually I am kind of saying the opposite. Money is spent and wasted at the moment on a lot of window dressing. For instance making companies and institutions in places like the Borders have Gaelic language plans. It is not needed and as you suggest not wanted. All I am saying is that there is an existing Gaelic speaking community in certain areas of Scotland and they, along with rural people in non-Gaelic speaking areas, should be helped to stay working in these communities if they prefer. Invest in rural communities. I'm saying spreading it around. Not everyone need go and work in the eastern central belt! Or move to England or abroad. All I am saying is the best way to keep Gaelic as a living language is to help the existing Gaelic community prosper in their heartland.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 11:35 AM

I agree with that 100% Allan.
I think, before long, small self -sufficient communities will spring up all over Scotland
The population's disgust and disillusionment with big government is very evident.
But it will never happen without independence.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 02:40 PM

state of languages 

While the plight of Gaelic is a legitimate concern, nthere are many world languages in a sorry state, as indicated by this UNESCO map (and quite a few are in developed countries,)

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 07:07 PM

There are many languages in in the world under pressure. That of course is true. I don't quite understand what you are getting at though in that last post. Should we not concern ourselves too much with the preservation of the Scottish wildcat because while that is a legitimate concern the rhino and other mammals elsewhere are also under pressure?

I'm just finding it a bit weird that on a folk music forum some people seem to have a wee bit of an issue with the idea of people trying to safeguard the linguistic aprects of their country's culture. Generally in Scotland the vast bulk of people interested in folk music tend to also be interested in other aspects of the culture too.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 07:48 PM

"I don't quite understand what you are getting at though in that last post"

I am not "getting at" anything beyond sharing information related to a topic that I participated in. I am puzzled by your odd reaction and interpretation of this common occurance of information sharing on mudcat? I am not challenging your concern for the futurev of this or any language, as it is a concern I share.

Maybe you missed it, but my previous posts indicated that people are aware, concerned and are trying to do something about declining languages (btw, gaelic is also listed on the map, if you choose to look) at different levels While you seem to have downplay some of these focused efforts, maybe they will in the end have as much, or more of an impact than relying on traditional speakers and culture, that are currently facing poor odds from change. Will these languages ever recover to former use, unlikely. Can their richness be preserved, possibly yes for some through a variety of approaches.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: michaelr
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 07:57 PM

100! How nice, to have gone from a "bit o`fun" OP to an interesting and cilvilized discussion. I'm pleased. Well done, Mudcatters.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 02:39 AM

Ed if I have misinterpreted the meaning of your post then of course I apologise. The way it was written made me think you were putting a caveat on saying "so it is a concern but there are lots of languages under threat - so what is so special about Gaelic?" I completely accept that was not your intention.

As to the rest of your last post then again I do not dismiss learners etc simply pointing out the fact that there is still a viable native Gaelic speaking community in Scotland and the best way to preserve the language is to preserve it within that said community in an unbroken Gaelic language tradition. That seems self evident to me.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 04:41 AM

I wonder if being Scottish will ever be fashionable - like Irish was. Scottish theme bars. Teenagers doing Scottish patois - innit Jimmy?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 05:43 AM

Thanks Allan.
I admit that traditional routes are best routes to save a language. But, when the future of is threatened, new approaches should be embraced.I am encouraged that communities, academics, governments and individuals see the benefits of taking actions to help this language to survive current threats. I suspect it may be people rediscovering their gaelic roots, worldwide, who may make a difference. On a positive note, the resources and interest are there to assist (like the Gaelic college) unlike with many other threatened languages.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 06:30 AM

Men in skirts, it'll never catch on Al.

Well, not very often anyway.





Only twice this week.

To be fair.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Ed t
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 06:41 AM

Guest was me.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 08:33 AM

People who speak a threatened language today and are perfectly happy with it should not be made to switch. Switching of course, was the dictatorial English policy toward Gaelic in the 18th century.

The other side of the coin is that people who feel no personal need for a minority language in their heads should not be compelled to learn it, much less speak it. (Not, of course, the same thing as learning something *about* it, which is a part of cultural history.)

While the grammar and vocabulary of any language are of interest, the chief "riches" are in the written and unwritten literature. Teaching people to order cheeseburgers or write insurance policies in Gaelic (or Latin) doesn't come under the heading of linguistic riches for me.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 08:40 AM

Isn't there an edition of Winnie The Pooh in Latin?
My loony niece claims she speaks fluent Klingon. (I mean seriously, she really does!) When she went to see that film about Jesus where all the dialogue was in Latin (Roman soldiers) or Aramaic, her boyfriend was furious, as she spent the entire film in suppressed hysterics. She reckoned the Aramaic was exactly like Klingon.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 04:41 AM

Mind we have to be careful not to blame "the English" for anti-Gaelic attitudes. Wales was legally part of the English kingdom itself much more integrated and the Welsh language is in a much better position than Gaelic is in Scotland. More often than not it was Scots who were much more invovled in suppression. In the late 19thC it was an anglicised Scottish elite who were responsible. The Education Act (1870s or 1880s can't remember) was devised and then enforced by the then called Scotch Dept in what was a much less centralised state than the 20thC pre-devolution UK. All schooling was to be carried out in Standard English and both Gaelic and Scots were proscribed from the classroom. Gaelic campaigners appealed over the heads of the Dept to the UK government in general but the gvt's attitude was that it was a Scottish matter so they wouldn't intervene. In respect to Gaelic the decision was reversed after sometime less than two decades but much damage was of course done at the time. As far as Scots goes it has only recently (past few decades) been given any acceptance/tolerance.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 05:48 AM

Just a thought
Are there more Doric speakers than gaelic spreakers. Im sure someone will have stats

Fit fit fit fit fit -- Doric

Xlation -- Which shoe fits which foot

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: bubblyrat
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 05:55 AM

Donal Agus Morag and Dulaman (two of my favourites ) just wouldn't sound the same in English !!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 04:31 AM

"Are there more Doric speakers than gaelic spreakers. Im sure someone will have stats"

Are you meaning Doric (as in the dialect of the north-east) or the older use of Doric to mean Scots in general? The 2011 census did have for the first time a question on Scots though it appears to me that the use of Scots in the home seems way under-reported. For instance the amount of people who say they speak Scots in the home is 1.1% of the population so just more than double the figure who say they use Gaelic in the home. I suspect though that in reality the figure is only so low for Scots because of the way the question was asked. There were only two boxes to tick for languages which were "English" and "British Sign Language" so to put Scots in you had to actively decide to insert Scots in the 'other' box. I suspect that many people wouldn't think of putting anything in there thinking the question was asking about Gaelic or a foreign language. Had there been a box for "do you speak your area's local dialect in the home" then the figures would have been much higher.

For instance for the Borders out of a population of 100,000 plus it suggests only 1,218 people speak Scots in the home. I've lived here all my life and can safely say that figure is absurdedly low. 40 people say they speak Gaelic in the home.

I suspect what I've said above will apply to the other areas too. So 4,189 in Aberdeen City say they speak Scots in the home etc etc etc.

In another part of the census the more direct straightforward question was put saying can you speak or understand Scots etc. 30% of Scottish people – about 1.5 million said they could speak it.

So it is how long is a piece of string!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 05:22 AM

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 05:36 AM

There are two aspects to fluency in a language - understanding it, and using it reasonably correctly to make yourself understood. The latter category usually involves a far smaller vocabulary and far fewer speakers and writers than the former has listeners and readers.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 05:36 AM

When I last lived in Glasgow (many years ago) with my Island friends (perhaps I won't say teuchters, not wishing to offend anybody) I noticed that their Gaelic was evolving rapidly to incorporate modern terms, especially those related to technology. There didn't seem to be a word for television, telephone, fire-engine, disco and lots of other things. They even used English for the days of the week. Being linguistically minded, I'd sit fascinated listening to their chatter, and smiling at the English words, which were given a Gaelic flavour. I reckon this is how languages mutate and evolve. Need drives the vocabulary, and reflects the changing daily life of the speakers. This happens in French, where many non-Gallic words 'debase' their sacred French lingo. And look at the Normans and Saxons. Their contributions to English reflect their different social status and standards of living. Pig, cow, sheep, and pork, beef, mutton for example.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 06:00 AM

I wonder what the English word for television or telephone is?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,topsie
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 06:24 AM

Television = goggle box
Telephone = blower

I'm sure there are many others but those were the first that came to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 08:38 AM

Do people even agree in these surveys on they mean by "Scots"?

To qualify, at least to my mind, you need more than just pronunciation: you also need a good number of words that don't exist in Standard English. You have to sound rather like Robert Burns in "To a Mouse."

In the southern United States, for example, probably 90% of the population would say they "speak Southern in the home." But except for a bare handful of words and constructions ("y'all," "might could," "poke," etc.) the only real difference from "northern English" lies in the accent, which only in the most extreme cases takes more than 10 seconds for the average Yankee to understand. (I was once stumped for nearly that long when the cashier at a fast-food place asked, "Kyepyuh?")

So, yeah, a piece of string is yay long.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 10:03 AM

I agree with Lighter if you're talking about Glasgow. I come from Paisley! only 8 miles from Glasgow but we have/had many words like wame for stomach, aiblins for maybe, nieve for fist and wrocht for worked. There are many more and on the East coast there also many Scottish words as distinct from pronunciation. The mistake is quite often people think a Glaswegian is speaking 'Scots' when in fact it's just poor English and idiom.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 10:53 AM

"Do people even agree in these surveys on they mean by "Scots"?"

The trouble is it is unscientific especially when the language has been so suppressed. So many people in the Borders for instance will say they speak Kelsae or Hawick and not associate it with a language called Scots. No doubt it is the same for other regions. Then there is the relationship with English. If someone speaks a mixture of Scots and Scottish Standard English then what is the line between the two? When does it become Scots?

Saying that though there are plenty of people who speak Scots and often (I include myself here) people can easily hold conversations where they'll speak to some people in a pretty standard English and then to someone else in their Scots dialect. Swapping all the time depending on who you're speaking too.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 11:15 AM

"The mistake is quite often people think a Glaswegian is speaking 'Scots' when in fact it's just poor English and idiom"

In the past Glaswegian has been dismissed as bad speaking by both English and Scots language purists. The Scottish National Dictionary was over 40 years in the making. In the preface to volume one it dismisses Glaswegian as being hopelessly corrupted because of Irish and other immigrants. The suggestion being that it is too anglicised to be described as Scots any longer. More recently though that view seems to have changed and the leading lights of the Scots language movement now seem to accept Glaswegian (or West Central Scots) as a dialect of Scots and are apologetic about the preface. They just see it as a newer urban and yes, more anglicised, type of Scots. I get your point though in language continuums (ie where there is no defined break between one and the other - and that is quite common) where does one become the other? Often it is just perception rather than logic. Seemingly near the border with Portugal some of the Spanish dialects are closer to standard Portuguese than they are Standard Spanish.

It is true though that the more conservative Scots dialects. For example Border Scots, or Shetlandic or the Doric simly aren't heard all that much in the media. Even within Scotland never mind UK wide. What people tend to hear is Glaswegian!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 12:53 PM

I saw the Celtic Connection/Commonwealth Burns night concert and was very impressed. I noticed that most of the singers managed to sidestep the usual Bel Canto style and sing the words as written by Burns. I was disappointed with Dougie MacLean who managed to rhyme "gang" with "song" and " among".

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Raedwulf
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 02:12 PM

I dunno about 25. I think I can manage 4.

1. Whisky!
2. Ake (even though he is a blithering idiot at times).
3. Doing their best to keep all the really crap weather north of the border.
4. Scenery (unencumbered by Scots, for preference ;-) ).
5-25. Whisky.

Oh, alright, I can manage 25. And hello Ake! Independence, I think, is a bad idea. Fracturing countries is not a good move for anyone these days, unless homicidal cultural differences really demand it. Despite all the banter, Sweaties & Sassies are well past that stage, surely? We'd do better to stay together, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 06:20 PM

"Fracturing countries is not a good move for anyone these days"

That depends on your perspective. Some would look on Scotland and the other UK constituent parts as being countries within a wider union. Hence they wouldn't see their country as such as coming to an end just the political union. It surely doesn't necessitate for Scotland to be controlled by Westminster for the British people to get along and co-operate. Salmond's tack for a long while now has been that it is better to have a good neighbour than a sulky lodger!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 06:35 PM

Hi mah auld frein......guid tae see ye hale n' herty, bit ah hink ye shuid awa an bile yer heid :0)....iffin ye kin git a pot big eneuch.

Ye see, whit you fowk forgit is thit this his goat naethin dae dae wi' the English attaw, this is fur usyins tae soart oot fur wursells.

Ekynomicly the West is in decline, and the UK govt waants tae waste money advancin' freedim an democricy among the Arabs an that, bit whit thae're really dain' is gein the Alkyedas the freedim, tae whip aw the ordinary fowks heids aff!!

Usyins ur naw intae that stuff, live an let live we say, weve goat waatir, plenty eh wind n' piss tae make energy.....were soartit so we ur!!

Weve goat that much waatir thit we kin send some doon sooth tae yousyins.....fur efftir whin ye git yer hooses dried oot! :0)


On a serious vane, bloody good tae Red, an' ye ken yer no' really English....sure ah adoptit ye three years ago! ye kin come up here ony time an git yer weans edjicated fur hee haw, an whin yer auldir and no sae quick oan yer feet.....ye kin git yer erse wipte fur naethin'........Paradise wis nivir lik this!! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 06:40 PM

BTW....A "poke" is whit ye pit sweeties in!....ignirint showir!! :0(

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 05:43 AM

And a poke of chips. Wi' bits. (Small pieces of batter added to the poke)

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 11:25 AM

'poke' as in 'a pig in a poke', and 'a poky little room'

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 12:00 PM

When I was small, an Italian ice-cream seller used to come to our street. He pedalled a tricycle with an insulated box in a basket, containing the ice-cream. He sold it in greaseproof paper cones made by twirling a square in a very flamboyant way, shouting, "Okey pokey! Okey pokey!" My Scottish father and Irish mother knew the word 'poke' for a conical paper bag, and explained it to me, while buying some. (risking dire food-poisoning no doubt, but we were tough back then!)
There's also 'poke bonnet'.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 12:43 PM

It seems that 'poke' in this sense is derived from the French 'poche', from which we also get the English 'pouch'.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 12:54 PM

The problem with Salmond is he's just a Scottish version of the slime balls that inhabit the sleazy world of Westminster. He's right up the arse of Murdoch and backed one of the biggest dickheads in the world when he encouraged Donal Trump to trash a piece of coastline and intimidated the locals for a bloody poshos golf club.

Now as I live in England I have no say in the entire business, and whilst I'm not in favour of Scottish independence, if I was in their position I'd jettison England, Wales and the North of Ireland too as then they would be free of the tory tosspots who are ruling us now (and the Labour tosspots who emulate the tories when in office anyway).

In the end, this is another way of driving a wedge between the ordinary working people of our island, divide and conquer on a national scale. We're all brothers and sisters on this island.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 01:07 PM

Greetings from (in my best xenophobic fashion) the land of the cheese eating surrender monkeys.

Interestingly they are discussing the avalanche that Scottish independence could foster. Parts of France are looking for the precedence within EU members (as is Spain with Catalonia. )

Le Monde had an interesting article that pointed out Salmond's white paper and that fiscal union isn't in his power and judging by The UK groundswell objections to foreign powers having veto on economic decisions , the chances of The UK government getting a mandate from voters to monetary union would fall as flat as when Broon suggested The Euro and for the same reasons.

Oh, and pointed out that the paper proposes allowing English to be spoken. I'd be suspect about the word allow myself.

Anyway, back to the piste, savoire and a rather nice reality.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 03:56 PM

Aha Musket, using the sking Do again?
BvR

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 02:58 AM

Musket though at least keep the discussion away from the silly side of the argument. The SNP have never suggested that Holyrood should have a veto on economic decisions within what is left of the UK. In fact in connection with the Bank of England (which of course is partly owned by Scotland) they simply state that monetary policy in an independent Scotland (ie within a Sterling zone) would be decided by the Bank of England idependently of government. As it is now! They suggest no veto. All they suggest is that as part owners they would look for some formal input into the governance. Again no suggestion of a veto.

As to the people being 'allowed to speak English' then you're going to have to point out what bit of the document you are referring to in order to see what context this is! Again there is a lot of silly stuff spouted by some people. I did hear one local Tory activist claim we'd be allowed to speak English but that official SNP education policy was to make everyone speak Gaelic. Again it is plain nonsense. The SNP policy is that apart from their main language (which for virtually everyone means English) primary pupils should be learning two other languages. In the cases where Gaelic is on offer then that could be considered as one of the other two. People may criticise the language policy. Should primary kids be learning two other languages? Should Gaelic be included as one? However the idea that there is any threat at all to the status of English as the lingua franca is plain looney tunes!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 03:04 AM

As a footnote as well as Gaelic other langauges that would be considered as allowable in the 1+2 policy are French, German, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Russian, Arabic, Urdu, Punjabi, Chinese.

In reality with the vast bulk of schools what will be on offer is French, German, Spanish etc - and not Gaelic or Urdu.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 04:17 AM

Stu: "We're all brothers and sisters on this island." I agree wholeheartedly, and that's a very kind, mature way of looking at it. However, in my experience while 'up there', the Scots (understandably perhaps) did NOT view The English favourably, and were openly hostile to me whenever I spoke with my London accent. Luckily for me (I was only 17) I have a maiden name which is a village in the far north of Scotland, and my father was a Scot. I soon learned to speak 'Edinburgh', converted later to 'Glasgae' and was accepted with warmth.
While one may entertain universal, benevolent feelings towards all mankind, one cannot discount the historical bitternesses and resentments of many parts of our island. Even here in Norfolk, the folk are quite insular and it's not easy to be accepted as 'one o' they southerners'.In addition, there is a ferocious tribe living here called The Rich. They are often NOT benevolent but rapacious, and see the rest of us merely as human ATM machines.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 04:23 AM

I cannot help laughing when I hear stories about Scotland being either ejected by the EU or not allowed in when the EU is desperately trying to get the Ukraine to join!
And Stue, we in Scotland have the chance to fling out the "Tory tosspots" while you in England voted them in at the last election. Scotland voted overwhelmingly Labour then and will probably do so again when independent. Labour in Scotland will then have to rethink its policies with a strong SNP opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 04:42 AM

Common sense at last :0)....well said Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 06:41 AM

"And Stue, we in Scotland have the chance to fling out the "Tory tosspots" while you in England voted them in at the last election"

Well, tarring every person in England as someone who voted the tories in is as egregious as assuming everyone in Scotland paints themselves in woad and goes round yelling "freedom!"; it's a tired stereotype of the sort that colours debates like this and reeks of nationalist sentiment.

I didn't vote the tories in, and I never would vote for them . . . or the LibDems . . . or even Labour anymore, as none of them are for the people. In fact, no-one voted the tories in as they don't have a majority and subsequently zero mandate for the mess they're creating. I don't blame Scotland for flinging the fuckers out, but don't assume every lilly-livered English person is responsible for that shower being in charge. It's easy for people on both sides of the argument to reduce a whole nation of people to shallow caricatures then flinging shit at them from either side of Hadrian's Wall like caged chimps unable to see beyond the confines of their unthinking prejudice.

The problem with the independence debate is that is divisive to its core and there is a tendency for both sides to re-write history to accommodate their own current political viewpoint. In reality, it means the working people of this island will be split more than ever by a nationalist wedge from both sides of the border, and we will all be less powerful for it.

The nationalist debate is absolutist in nature and personally I believe that plays into the hands of the haters and those who would profit from the increasing marginalisation of the working and middle classes. It's a simplistic viewpoint and lacks the nuance that ignores the fact that on this island we are one people under three different flags; three rich and ancient traditions that are intricately intertwined and interdependent and kept alive by ordinary people who have had to labour under an unfair and unjust feudal system for a millennia; a system they neither chose or really endorse, that keeps them from power and influence and for which they have died and suffered in their millions, had their land stolen all across the island and been put to work for the profit of the ever-present 1%.

Types like Cameron and Salmond revel in this atmosphere of hate and division, men of small moral stature, zero intellectual or idealogical substance and devoid of any integrity. We get the leaders we vote for, and neither of these poltroons or their ilk are worthy of our votes. Equality? That's out of the window for the foreseeable future. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

I live on this island, I've ancestry from all over the island and beyond and as far as I'm concerned the borders are political and not cultural or genetic. We're one people, for better or worse and we'd be better off as one people.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 07:00 AM

I `ad that McTavish in my cab the other day. I picked `im up at the "`ighland Inn" and I was surprised `e wasn`t pickled, in fact `e was quite subdued. I thought maybe `ed got `aggis down `is sporran
I said, " Afternoon Jock, You been `alf on the wagon then? It aint your usual self I`m seeing after a session in there."
`e said, "Nah Jim. Living down in the smoke all these years, I just been reading that Mudcat about Scotland and got quite nostalgic about all its treasures. I got a lump in my throat and I just couldn`t sink it"
I said, "Why so sad then?"
`e said, " It`s the bloody neighbours!!"


Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 07:15 AM

Allan. Scotland doesn't own The Bank of England, The UK does. Nobody is offering a referendum over breaking up The UK. It shall exist and so shall its assets. Nobody asked us otherwise.

Jim. Stop saying Scotland didn't vote in conservatives. Neither did most of The UK. If they had won, they would have a mandate from you and I for Westminster decisions. It is called parliamentary democracy. Just like Salmond is offering you if he wins. Rules for coalitions seem similar in his Utopian delusion too.

Not every day I read and nod in agreement with Darling, but on this, his fears for Scotland seem to weigh up to me.

I suppose Salmond could resurrect his offer for a Celtic tiger with Iceland and Ireland? If he acts shrewdly, he might extend the offer to Portugal, Spain and Greece....

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 07:20 AM

"that ignores the fact that on this island we are one people under three different flags;"

That though isn't a fact. It is an opinion. And many people wouldn't share that opinion instead seeing us as three peoples under one flag. Nothing to do with hating anyone etc. (a Canadian person recognising that he is different to an American perosn doesn't mean he hates that American) Just a view that the Scottish, English and Welsh are three nations sharing an island and currently in a political union with some of the Irish on another island. The Scots are only deciding whether they wish to remain in that union or not!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 08:02 AM

Stu, you are confusing nationalism with democracy. There is no hatred of the English or anybody else in the argument for Scottish Independence, all the bile and anger like your own seems to becoming from the NO side. I can only emphasise that it is the inhabitants, the tax payers, of Scotland who will be voting and although obviously most are Scottish, there are many different nationalities who will be voting YES. The colour of the Westminster government has been decided by the people of England since 1945 .... do some research .... if the Scottish voting figures are removed, the government would have been the same.
All we are saying is that an independent Scotland would have the government of its choice and England would have the same, pure democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 09:35 AM

I'm not on the yes or no side, although as I said in my previous post if I lived in Scotland I'd vote yes. However, I think it will divide the working people of our island, possibly forever. When they closed the furnaces at Ravenscraig there were plenty of us mourning the death of an island-wide steel industry, now that concern will matter less.

As for democracy, we don't have accountability at local or national level, and there is no popular mandate for the current lot. We live in a society run by economists and shills for big business and the establishment; it's never gone away and will entrench itself even further after independence. Salmond is like the rest of them as he's shown on numerous occasions.

Odd you have to be on one side or the other though isn't it? Absolutism all the way.


"And many people wouldn't share that opinion instead seeing us as three peoples under one flag."

No doubt they wouldn't, but so what? The idea we are three radically different peoples is complete twaddle. My mum's Welsh (with a brilliantly rum Scottish ancestor) with rumours of other Scots I haven't traced yet, my dad is English with a dose of Huguenot and Gypsy and like most people on these islands I'm a lovely big mix. Three peoples? One mix of many peoples.

I'm not arguing about retaining our regional differences (of course we should) as they are about identity and diversity and are massively important. I simply don't see any long-term winners in this situation. Mind you, you could argue that the same would be true if Scotland says no, so there you go.

Our ancestors lived on these islands without any borders, they were one land. We are their descendants and we are one people.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 12:12 PM

"The idea we are three radically different peoples is complete twaddle"

Stu I don't think anybody suggested we were "radically different" though. Certainly I didn't.

"Scotland doesn't own The Bank of England, The UK does. Nobody is offering a referendum over breaking up The UK."

Musket the UK owns the bank of England and an indepent Scotland would of course expect its share of UK assets as well as its share of UK national debt. Nobody is ending the UK. The vote is about Scotland deciding whether to leave or not. The principle of self determination is going on here. A UK wide referendum on whether Scotland could leave or not would not be self determination as 9 out of 10 Brits don't live in Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 12:41 PM

I wonder if Latvia, Lithuania or Estonia would have achieved independence if the whole of Russia had been allowed to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 01:00 PM

Ah well. I suppose it is none of my business in a way, being English and all that.

I still love the place, and can't wait to get back (though not to that racist git's shop in Edinburgh).

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 01:12 PM

Normally I would say I have no dog in this race but I do. I am an invester in the Scottish economy but quite rightly not given a vote on this referendum.

However, if half the claims of Salmond & co had a basis, logic would dictate the rest of The UK would have a say too, as you can't invent GDP (you can bullshit it mind) and for every action there is a reaction.

I think the parish pump in Leith is about as good as it gets. However, I can't help wondering if those lining up behind SNP on the "independent" ticket would agree with his actual policies.

Be careful when waking up in a bed you got into with a hard on.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 03:38 PM

"I can't help wondering if those lining up behind SNP on the "independent" ticket would agree with his actual policies"

The vote is not about one party's domestic Scottish policies or about one politician's policies. It is about the future of the country. If Scotland voted YES - and let's face it that is still a big if even with the latest poll showing a real narrowing in the race - then sometime shortly afterwards the Nats would be going to the country. It is perfectly possible that the first full term Scottish gvt could be something other than an SNP gvt.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 03:45 PM

Mind setting aside the referendum polls this week, which were good news for the SNP,they must be over the moon with the polls in regard to voting intentions in the forthcoming European elections. With 43% of the poll they are only 1% below the combined share of the vote for Labour (24%) the Conservatives (14%) and the Lib Dems (6%) who have only 44% between the lot of them. Mid way through a second term in office that is pretty astonishing!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Raedwulf
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 03:53 PM

Expanding on my previous remark, I am sure that there are many in Scotland, and many Scots outside (such as that loud and notorious tax-dodger, Mr Connery) who think Scotland would be better off voting Yes. If what Salmond is promising appeals to you (& you actually believe he is both willing & capable of delivering it); if you have some particular interest (such as being against nuclear weapons), then I can easily see why the notion appeals to you.

On the other hand, you already have an unprecedented degree of autonomy within the UK (no-one has offered the English a regional parliament). You still have a hand in our pie (all the Scots MPs in Westminster - you have more influence over decisions that affect just us than we have over decisions that affect just you). This slimy notion promoted by the SNP that you can pick & choose which bits you declare independence on & keep the bits that suit you best (i.e. the bits that the remaining UK presumably end up subsiding you on), such as the BoE, really? Either go the whole hog, or say No.

Details aside; I've taken little interest in the debate as a whole since I have no voice in it, so I can't really say much; I just think it's a bad idea. Scotland isn't going to sink without trace if it declares full independence; neither is England. I just think that, on the whole, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. We would all be better off in a still united UK, rather than fragmenting.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 06:06 PM

"Unprecedented degree of autonomy"

Actually the UK of GB&NI has been a devolved state basically from its inception. Stormont was only suspended because of The Troubles.

"no-one has offered the English a regional parliament"

Scotland wasn't just offered a parliament! It was campaigned for on and off for over a century and a massive public call for it in the mid 20thC was simply ignored. If there was the same call for devolution within England then it would be quickly provided in comparison. Sheer demographic ensure that.

"all the Scots MPs in Westminster - you have more influence over decisions that affect just us than we have over decisions that affect just you"

For a start Westminster is not your pie! It is the UK parliament. The devolution settlement is half arsed and incomplete but it has to be kept in perspective. First I have to mention that the SNP (ie the main party calling for independence) do not actually vote on so called English only matters anyway! Secondly it is only in general a theoretical imbalance as Scottish votes have only made a difference on a couple of occassions at most. In fact with over 60 Sewel Motions carried out by unionist parties since devolution started the imbalance has still been the other way round. Over 60 pieces of supposed devolved legislation which were voted on by MPs at westmisnter rather than MSPs at Holyrood. Thirdly again this situation has been the case since the UK in its present form was created. Northern Irish MPs always voted on Scottish, English and Welsh matters. Why was there never a West Belfast Question? It seems the English Tories never minded non-English people voting on their English matters especially when the MPs in question were Ulster Unionits who largely sided with the Tories - they only took exception to Scots doing the same who of course tend to be anti-Tory

As to the subsidising thing. Come on catch up with the debate. Even the UK gvt itself no longer tries to claim Scotland is subsidised. For almost the past half century it has been the other way round!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 09:39 AM

I've been listening to Mark Carney talking about monetary union between the rest of the UK and Scotland should the Scots vote for independence. All the usual bean counter fluff, but it raises an interesting point.

Surely Scotland can only have true independence by having it's own currency? If Salmond has his way Scotland will still have to kowtow to the Bank of England (bound to induce the howling fantods in those north of the border who hate any association with England) and which, due to the nature of a common currency might mean Scotland will have less control over it's economy in some situations than it would like, for example if it needed to devalue it might not be able to because the interests of other countries need to be taken in account (ask the Greeks how that feels).

This would of course lead to cries of "foul!" amongst those who believe they might be being oppressed once more by the "auld enemy", but who willingly signed up to the arrangement.

Would Scotland not be better off biting the bullet and establishing their own currency from the outset? This would give Scotland true autonomy and cement it's status as an independent nation.

Also, there would need to be a cross-border agreement to stop Scottish managers working in the Premier League as it seems they have been sent down to bugger up the English national team (as my Mum is Welsh meaning the good half of me is, I support Wales in the rugby so don't give a stuff about that).

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 10:52 AM

I also listed/watched the Carney speech and later his press conference. He was quite clear about staying out of the political debate and that he was only discussing the technicalities of a currency union. I agree with Stu that an dependent currency is the best option but I think pragmatically, like Ireland and Australia who stayed with Sterling for about 40 years, that Sterling is the best bet in the short term. This will have to mean compromise, but a NEGOTIATED compromise. Interestingly Carney had just sat down when Alistair Darling tweeted "Salmond's pound is dead". How's that for a reasonable response to Carney's honest crafted speech.
And as far as Stu's nationalistic attitude on choosing football managers .. there seems to be a dearth of English ones and lots of Scots, French, Italian .... I also have no time for the 90 minute nationalists.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 12:40 PM

UK referendum. Should we negotiate fiscal union with a foreign power?

You could apply that to Euro or Haggis Vouchers. I doubt the answer has altered over the years.

Oh, and I was very pro Euro when in business. Still am, but that's irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 02:54 PM

Ack! My long-winded reply disappeared into the ether. The footy thing was a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Raedwulf
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 10:17 AM

Allan - maybe you don't intend to, but you make yourself sound like the sort of one-eyed SNP adherent that puts everyone else off (Scots, English, etc!).

Perhaps Scotland wasn't "just" offered a parliament; I'm not keenly interested enough to investigate how much genuine desire for such things has ever been (& not daft enough to accept any propagandists claim sight unseen). But, by your lights, were the Welsh ever "offered" a parliament? The point is that the three other divisions of the UK *now* all have some sort of say over their own affairs; England doesn't. So Scotland already has a degree of autonomy, along with Wales & NI. Poor ol' bloody England just has to put up with what Westminster decides.

Pie - again, you have missed my point. Of course Parliament isn't an English pie; I never suggested it was. But Scotland has some influence over what Scotland decides because it is devolved. And Scotland has some influence over what the UK decides, because Scottish MPs sit in Parliament. But Scotland also has some influence over what is decided for England, by right of those Scottish MPs.

England has NO direct influence over what is decided for England, because we have no direct voice. England only exercises, now, an indirect influence over what happens in Scotland through the same route that you do; Parliament. I don't think demographic has anything to do with it. There have been calls for an English Holyrood. But it's not in the interests of any party to pay it any attention, and people are largely, I believe, disaffected from politics. Whatever the underlying reasons, the Scots have rather more influence over English affairs than the English do over Scots.

As for the subsidy question, feel free to enlighten me, because I confess myself largely ignorant. However, the one thing that has been repeated down the years has been "North Sea Oil". Well, that's running down these days, so you might find yourselves in trouble if you're relying on that. Besides, when the SNP try to claim continental shelves etc, would you like to remember who paid all the development costs for exploration, for infrastructure, etc? It wasn't Scotland. It was private enterprise or the UK. So why do SNP-types suddenly think they've a claim on a cut of the remaining profits without bearing any of the costs that were / are / will be involved?

Ah. That'll be the same piece of nationalistic chicanery that says "retaining monetary union would be terrific". For Scotland maybe. Not for the UK. It's a sad fact of life that London and, by extension the South-East, subsidises the rest of the UK. Scotland included.

Like I said, you won't sink & neither will we. I just think that the sum is greater than the parts.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 07:02 PM

Sorry but you can't just dismiss someone as "one eyed" just because he disagrees with points you put and puts very relevant point back to you. I stand by all my points. Why should I be described as a one eyed nationalist and you not a one eyed unionist? Isn't it better to keep away from insults and stick to debating the points?

As to the first thing. I simply pointed out that Scotland had been campaigning for devolution for about the last century. That is true – not propaganda! Sometimes it was less to the fore but sometimes it was very much to the fore. For instance just a few years after the end of WWII an estimated 2 million signatures were collected on the Scottish Covenant calling for a devolved body. Even if the figures are exaggerated it is clear that there was a massive call for it – which Westminster simply ignored. Are you really suggesting that if a comparable 20 million signatures were collected in England for an English parliament that it would not be quickly delivered? Sheer demographics ensure that it would be. Blue clicky at bottom gives BBC link though I have cut and pasted the relevant paragraph. Though you only need to read any modern Scottish history book!

"In 1947 a Scottish Convention was formed with the hope of securing a parliament for Scotland along non-party lines. Two years later, using the idea of the Presbyterian 'solemn league and covenant', it drew up the Scottish Covenant, which was eventually signed by two million people. However, it made little impact as all the Westminster parties still kept devolution off the main parliamentary agenda leaving the Covenant movement with nowhere to go."

a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/devolution/scotland/briefing/c20scot.shtml">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/devolution/scotland/briefing/c20scot.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 07:16 PM

As to the influence bit again I point out that the system is flawed however in reality the Scottish votes have only been a theoretical imbalance in favour of any UK gvt making no difference to actual results in all but a couple of occasions at most and it follows on from existing practice which was already in place re Northern Ireland members. Whilst a unionist Labour Scottish gvt passed over 60 devolved issues to its Labour partners at Westminster through the Sewel Motions letting all UK MPs, and only UK MPs, vote on Scottish issues which were actually supposed to be devolved matters.

As to the funding well sorry but if you stay away from Tory rags and actually look at the official figures you'll see that when Scotland's natural resources are taken into account we more than pay our way and have consistently done so for decades. The figures are not massive now but they were enormous in the 1980s. The detailed figures are published annually in the GERS report which can be easily found on the Scottish gvt website. I've put up a blue clicky from the BBC site showing how Scotland's economic position stands. Public spending is £12,100 per person which is £1200 more than the UK as a whole – however GDP of £26,424 per person which is over £4000 more than the UK as a whole is. Likewise I have attached a blue clicky from the Institute of Fiscal Studies and again here is a cut and paste – and I have deliberately kept away from Nationalist publications here


"Over recent years, tax revenues from the North Sea, if allocated on a geographic basis, would have slightly more than paid for the additional public spending per head that currently occurs in Scotland relative to the UK as a whole"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24866266

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 07:20 PM

http://www.ifs.org.uk/bns/bn135.pdf


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now as to the oil is running out well sorry but for one thing we've heard it all before and for a second thing the demise of North Sea oil is much disputed. But either way independent or part of the UK it would hit Scotland if it did dry up. For years we've had moaning from English Tories about spending in Scotland and there is already calls for a scrapping of Barnett and reduction in the level of Scottish spending compared with England. What has held the wolves off has been the strength of the SNP in Scotland, the threat of a referendum, and the fact that we do actually more than pay our way! I for one don't believe for one moment that Scottish spending would be safeguarded should we not pay our way and I wouldn't expect it to be. Sorry but if North Sea oil revenue went through the floor then Scotland would be hit part of the UK or not!

Sorry don't mean to multi post but couldn't get this to go as one big post

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 04:47 AM

Yes, Allan, obtaining facts before comment is the best way to go. I remember when the film Braveheart came out, everybody I met (I live in London) were experts in 13/14th century Scottish history. Now they are all economic experts.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 06:02 AM

Have just had an email from my sister inviting me 'up there' in August! We're going to stay in her daughter's Edinburgh flat for 3 nights and poss see some of the Festival, then off to her village near Perth. She's a bit of a gourmet and we'll be eating out at some superb places. Sadly I can't do steep mountain walks any more, but we'll have a good time. Direct flights from Norwich to Edinburgh. What could be easier?
Yippeeeeeee!!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 08:31 AM

Allan and Jim

Having never seen Braveheart nor tried to understand the economic model of tourist tartan, I just wish to add something that is nothing to do with Scotland. Let me tell you something about England.

BP are buying up land alongside the old Tyneside shipyards. I doubt they will try doing anything with it just yet and in September may even put it back on the market.

Just thought I'd mention it.

I don't own any properties in Aberdeen myself, but there may be an outside chance that if reason goes out of the window later this year, some nice sturdy granite properties may come down to a reasonable price.