BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 02:39 AM

Ed if I have misinterpreted the meaning of your post then of course I apologise. The way it was written made me think you were putting a caveat on saying "so it is a concern but there are lots of languages under threat - so what is so special about Gaelic?" I completely accept that was not your intention.

As to the rest of your last post then again I do not dismiss learners etc simply pointing out the fact that there is still a viable native Gaelic speaking community in Scotland and the best way to preserve the language is to preserve it within that said community in an unbroken Gaelic language tradition. That seems self evident to me.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 04:41 AM

I wonder if being Scottish will ever be fashionable - like Irish was. Scottish theme bars. Teenagers doing Scottish patois - innit Jimmy?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 05:43 AM

Thanks Allan.
I admit that traditional routes are best routes to save a language. But, when the future of is threatened, new approaches should be embraced.I am encouraged that communities, academics, governments and individuals see the benefits of taking actions to help this language to survive current threats. I suspect it may be people rediscovering their gaelic roots, worldwide, who may make a difference. On a positive note, the resources and interest are there to assist (like the Gaelic college) unlike with many other threatened languages.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 06:30 AM

Men in skirts, it'll never catch on Al.

Well, not very often anyway.





Only twice this week.

To be fair.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Ed t
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 06:41 AM

Guest was me.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 08:33 AM

People who speak a threatened language today and are perfectly happy with it should not be made to switch. Switching of course, was the dictatorial English policy toward Gaelic in the 18th century.

The other side of the coin is that people who feel no personal need for a minority language in their heads should not be compelled to learn it, much less speak it. (Not, of course, the same thing as learning something *about* it, which is a part of cultural history.)

While the grammar and vocabulary of any language are of interest, the chief "riches" are in the written and unwritten literature. Teaching people to order cheeseburgers or write insurance policies in Gaelic (or Latin) doesn't come under the heading of linguistic riches for me.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 08:40 AM

Isn't there an edition of Winnie The Pooh in Latin?
My loony niece claims she speaks fluent Klingon. (I mean seriously, she really does!) When she went to see that film about Jesus where all the dialogue was in Latin (Roman soldiers) or Aramaic, her boyfriend was furious, as she spent the entire film in suppressed hysterics. She reckoned the Aramaic was exactly like Klingon.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 04:41 AM

Mind we have to be careful not to blame "the English" for anti-Gaelic attitudes. Wales was legally part of the English kingdom itself much more integrated and the Welsh language is in a much better position than Gaelic is in Scotland. More often than not it was Scots who were much more invovled in suppression. In the late 19thC it was an anglicised Scottish elite who were responsible. The Education Act (1870s or 1880s can't remember) was devised and then enforced by the then called Scotch Dept in what was a much less centralised state than the 20thC pre-devolution UK. All schooling was to be carried out in Standard English and both Gaelic and Scots were proscribed from the classroom. Gaelic campaigners appealed over the heads of the Dept to the UK government in general but the gvt's attitude was that it was a Scottish matter so they wouldn't intervene. In respect to Gaelic the decision was reversed after sometime less than two decades but much damage was of course done at the time. As far as Scots goes it has only recently (past few decades) been given any acceptance/tolerance.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 05:48 AM

Just a thought
Are there more Doric speakers than gaelic spreakers. Im sure someone will have stats

Fit fit fit fit fit -- Doric

Xlation -- Which shoe fits which foot

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: bubblyrat
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 05:55 AM

Donal Agus Morag and Dulaman (two of my favourites ) just wouldn't sound the same in English !!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 04:31 AM

"Are there more Doric speakers than gaelic spreakers. Im sure someone will have stats"

Are you meaning Doric (as in the dialect of the north-east) or the older use of Doric to mean Scots in general? The 2011 census did have for the first time a question on Scots though it appears to me that the use of Scots in the home seems way under-reported. For instance the amount of people who say they speak Scots in the home is 1.1% of the population so just more than double the figure who say they use Gaelic in the home. I suspect though that in reality the figure is only so low for Scots because of the way the question was asked. There were only two boxes to tick for languages which were "English" and "British Sign Language" so to put Scots in you had to actively decide to insert Scots in the 'other' box. I suspect that many people wouldn't think of putting anything in there thinking the question was asking about Gaelic or a foreign language. Had there been a box for "do you speak your area's local dialect in the home" then the figures would have been much higher.

For instance for the Borders out of a population of 100,000 plus it suggests only 1,218 people speak Scots in the home. I've lived here all my life and can safely say that figure is absurdedly low. 40 people say they speak Gaelic in the home.

I suspect what I've said above will apply to the other areas too. So 4,189 in Aberdeen City say they speak Scots in the home etc etc etc.

In another part of the census the more direct straightforward question was put saying can you speak or understand Scots etc. 30% of Scottish people – about 1.5 million said they could speak it.

So it is how long is a piece of string!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 05:22 AM

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 05:36 AM

There are two aspects to fluency in a language - understanding it, and using it reasonably correctly to make yourself understood. The latter category usually involves a far smaller vocabulary and far fewer speakers and writers than the former has listeners and readers.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 05:36 AM

When I last lived in Glasgow (many years ago) with my Island friends (perhaps I won't say teuchters, not wishing to offend anybody) I noticed that their Gaelic was evolving rapidly to incorporate modern terms, especially those related to technology. There didn't seem to be a word for television, telephone, fire-engine, disco and lots of other things. They even used English for the days of the week. Being linguistically minded, I'd sit fascinated listening to their chatter, and smiling at the English words, which were given a Gaelic flavour. I reckon this is how languages mutate and evolve. Need drives the vocabulary, and reflects the changing daily life of the speakers. This happens in French, where many non-Gallic words 'debase' their sacred French lingo. And look at the Normans and Saxons. Their contributions to English reflect their different social status and standards of living. Pig, cow, sheep, and pork, beef, mutton for example.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 06:00 AM

I wonder what the English word for television or telephone is?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,topsie
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 06:24 AM

Television = goggle box
Telephone = blower

I'm sure there are many others but those were the first that came to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 08:38 AM

Do people even agree in these surveys on they mean by "Scots"?

To qualify, at least to my mind, you need more than just pronunciation: you also need a good number of words that don't exist in Standard English. You have to sound rather like Robert Burns in "To a Mouse."

In the southern United States, for example, probably 90% of the population would say they "speak Southern in the home." But except for a bare handful of words and constructions ("y'all," "might could," "poke," etc.) the only real difference from "northern English" lies in the accent, which only in the most extreme cases takes more than 10 seconds for the average Yankee to understand. (I was once stumped for nearly that long when the cashier at a fast-food place asked, "Kyepyuh?")

So, yeah, a piece of string is yay long.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 10:03 AM

I agree with Lighter if you're talking about Glasgow. I come from Paisley! only 8 miles from Glasgow but we have/had many words like wame for stomach, aiblins for maybe, nieve for fist and wrocht for worked. There are many more and on the East coast there also many Scottish words as distinct from pronunciation. The mistake is quite often people think a Glaswegian is speaking 'Scots' when in fact it's just poor English and idiom.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 10:53 AM

"Do people even agree in these surveys on they mean by "Scots"?"

The trouble is it is unscientific especially when the language has been so suppressed. So many people in the Borders for instance will say they speak Kelsae or Hawick and not associate it with a language called Scots. No doubt it is the same for other regions. Then there is the relationship with English. If someone speaks a mixture of Scots and Scottish Standard English then what is the line between the two? When does it become Scots?

Saying that though there are plenty of people who speak Scots and often (I include myself here) people can easily hold conversations where they'll speak to some people in a pretty standard English and then to someone else in their Scots dialect. Swapping all the time depending on who you're speaking too.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 11:15 AM

"The mistake is quite often people think a Glaswegian is speaking 'Scots' when in fact it's just poor English and idiom"

In the past Glaswegian has been dismissed as bad speaking by both English and Scots language purists. The Scottish National Dictionary was over 40 years in the making. In the preface to volume one it dismisses Glaswegian as being hopelessly corrupted because of Irish and other immigrants. The suggestion being that it is too anglicised to be described as Scots any longer. More recently though that view seems to have changed and the leading lights of the Scots language movement now seem to accept Glaswegian (or West Central Scots) as a dialect of Scots and are apologetic about the preface. They just see it as a newer urban and yes, more anglicised, type of Scots. I get your point though in language continuums (ie where there is no defined break between one and the other - and that is quite common) where does one become the other? Often it is just perception rather than logic. Seemingly near the border with Portugal some of the Spanish dialects are closer to standard Portuguese than they are Standard Spanish.

It is true though that the more conservative Scots dialects. For example Border Scots, or Shetlandic or the Doric simly aren't heard all that much in the media. Even within Scotland never mind UK wide. What people tend to hear is Glaswegian!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 12:53 PM

I saw the Celtic Connection/Commonwealth Burns night concert and was very impressed. I noticed that most of the singers managed to sidestep the usual Bel Canto style and sing the words as written by Burns. I was disappointed with Dougie MacLean who managed to rhyme "gang" with "song" and " among".

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Raedwulf
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 02:12 PM

I dunno about 25. I think I can manage 4.

1. Whisky!
2. Ake (even though he is a blithering idiot at times).
3. Doing their best to keep all the really crap weather north of the border.
4. Scenery (unencumbered by Scots, for preference ;-) ).
5-25. Whisky.

Oh, alright, I can manage 25. And hello Ake! Independence, I think, is a bad idea. Fracturing countries is not a good move for anyone these days, unless homicidal cultural differences really demand it. Despite all the banter, Sweaties & Sassies are well past that stage, surely? We'd do better to stay together, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 06:20 PM

"Fracturing countries is not a good move for anyone these days"

That depends on your perspective. Some would look on Scotland and the other UK constituent parts as being countries within a wider union. Hence they wouldn't see their country as such as coming to an end just the political union. It surely doesn't necessitate for Scotland to be controlled by Westminster for the British people to get along and co-operate. Salmond's tack for a long while now has been that it is better to have a good neighbour than a sulky lodger!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 06:35 PM

Hi mah auld frein......guid tae see ye hale n' herty, bit ah hink ye shuid awa an bile yer heid :0)....iffin ye kin git a pot big eneuch.

Ye see, whit you fowk forgit is thit this his goat naethin dae dae wi' the English attaw, this is fur usyins tae soart oot fur wursells.

Ekynomicly the West is in decline, and the UK govt waants tae waste money advancin' freedim an democricy among the Arabs an that, bit whit thae're really dain' is gein the Alkyedas the freedim, tae whip aw the ordinary fowks heids aff!!

Usyins ur naw intae that stuff, live an let live we say, weve goat waatir, plenty eh wind n' piss tae make energy.....were soartit so we ur!!

Weve goat that much waatir thit we kin send some doon sooth tae yousyins.....fur efftir whin ye git yer hooses dried oot! :0)


On a serious vane, bloody good tae Red, an' ye ken yer no' really English....sure ah adoptit ye three years ago! ye kin come up here ony time an git yer weans edjicated fur hee haw, an whin yer auldir and no sae quick oan yer feet.....ye kin git yer erse wipte fur naethin'........Paradise wis nivir lik this!! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 06:40 PM

BTW....A "poke" is whit ye pit sweeties in!....ignirint showir!! :0(

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 05:43 AM

And a poke of chips. Wi' bits. (Small pieces of batter added to the poke)

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 11:25 AM

'poke' as in 'a pig in a poke', and 'a poky little room'

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 12:00 PM

When I was small, an Italian ice-cream seller used to come to our street. He pedalled a tricycle with an insulated box in a basket, containing the ice-cream. He sold it in greaseproof paper cones made by twirling a square in a very flamboyant way, shouting, "Okey pokey! Okey pokey!" My Scottish father and Irish mother knew the word 'poke' for a conical paper bag, and explained it to me, while buying some. (risking dire food-poisoning no doubt, but we were tough back then!)
There's also 'poke bonnet'.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 12:43 PM

It seems that 'poke' in this sense is derived from the French 'poche', from which we also get the English 'pouch'.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 12:54 PM

The problem with Salmond is he's just a Scottish version of the slime balls that inhabit the sleazy world of Westminster. He's right up the arse of Murdoch and backed one of the biggest dickheads in the world when he encouraged Donal Trump to trash a piece of coastline and intimidated the locals for a bloody poshos golf club.

Now as I live in England I have no say in the entire business, and whilst I'm not in favour of Scottish independence, if I was in their position I'd jettison England, Wales and the North of Ireland too as then they would be free of the tory tosspots who are ruling us now (and the Labour tosspots who emulate the tories when in office anyway).

In the end, this is another way of driving a wedge between the ordinary working people of our island, divide and conquer on a national scale. We're all brothers and sisters on this island.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 01:07 PM

Greetings from (in my best xenophobic fashion) the land of the cheese eating surrender monkeys.

Interestingly they are discussing the avalanche that Scottish independence could foster. Parts of France are looking for the precedence within EU members (as is Spain with Catalonia. )

Le Monde had an interesting article that pointed out Salmond's white paper and that fiscal union isn't in his power and judging by The UK groundswell objections to foreign powers having veto on economic decisions , the chances of The UK government getting a mandate from voters to monetary union would fall as flat as when Broon suggested The Euro and for the same reasons.

Oh, and pointed out that the paper proposes allowing English to be spoken. I'd be suspect about the word allow myself.

Anyway, back to the piste, savoire and a rather nice reality.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 03:56 PM

Aha Musket, using the sking Do again?
BvR

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 02:58 AM

Musket though at least keep the discussion away from the silly side of the argument. The SNP have never suggested that Holyrood should have a veto on economic decisions within what is left of the UK. In fact in connection with the Bank of England (which of course is partly owned by Scotland) they simply state that monetary policy in an independent Scotland (ie within a Sterling zone) would be decided by the Bank of England idependently of government. As it is now! They suggest no veto. All they suggest is that as part owners they would look for some formal input into the governance. Again no suggestion of a veto.

As to the people being 'allowed to speak English' then you're going to have to point out what bit of the document you are referring to in order to see what context this is! Again there is a lot of silly stuff spouted by some people. I did hear one local Tory activist claim we'd be allowed to speak English but that official SNP education policy was to make everyone speak Gaelic. Again it is plain nonsense. The SNP policy is that apart from their main language (which for virtually everyone means English) primary pupils should be learning two other languages. In the cases where Gaelic is on offer then that could be considered as one of the other two. People may criticise the language policy. Should primary kids be learning two other languages? Should Gaelic be included as one? However the idea that there is any threat at all to the status of English as the lingua franca is plain looney tunes!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 03:04 AM

As a footnote as well as Gaelic other langauges that would be considered as allowable in the 1+2 policy are French, German, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Russian, Arabic, Urdu, Punjabi, Chinese.

In reality with the vast bulk of schools what will be on offer is French, German, Spanish etc - and not Gaelic or Urdu.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 04:17 AM

Stu: "We're all brothers and sisters on this island." I agree wholeheartedly, and that's a very kind, mature way of looking at it. However, in my experience while 'up there', the Scots (understandably perhaps) did NOT view The English favourably, and were openly hostile to me whenever I spoke with my London accent. Luckily for me (I was only 17) I have a maiden name which is a village in the far north of Scotland, and my father was a Scot. I soon learned to speak 'Edinburgh', converted later to 'Glasgae' and was accepted with warmth.
While one may entertain universal, benevolent feelings towards all mankind, one cannot discount the historical bitternesses and resentments of many parts of our island. Even here in Norfolk, the folk are quite insular and it's not easy to be accepted as 'one o' they southerners'.In addition, there is a ferocious tribe living here called The Rich. They are often NOT benevolent but rapacious, and see the rest of us merely as human ATM machines.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 04:23 AM

I cannot help laughing when I hear stories about Scotland being either ejected by the EU or not allowed in when the EU is desperately trying to get the Ukraine to join!
And Stue, we in Scotland have the chance to fling out the "Tory tosspots" while you in England voted them in at the last election. Scotland voted overwhelmingly Labour then and will probably do so again when independent. Labour in Scotland will then have to rethink its policies with a strong SNP opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 04:42 AM

Common sense at last :0)....well said Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 06:41 AM

"And Stue, we in Scotland have the chance to fling out the "Tory tosspots" while you in England voted them in at the last election"

Well, tarring every person in England as someone who voted the tories in is as egregious as assuming everyone in Scotland paints themselves in woad and goes round yelling "freedom!"; it's a tired stereotype of the sort that colours debates like this and reeks of nationalist sentiment.

I didn't vote the tories in, and I never would vote for them . . . or the LibDems . . . or even Labour anymore, as none of them are for the people. In fact, no-one voted the tories in as they don't have a majority and subsequently zero mandate for the mess they're creating. I don't blame Scotland for flinging the fuckers out, but don't assume every lilly-livered English person is responsible for that shower being in charge. It's easy for people on both sides of the argument to reduce a whole nation of people to shallow caricatures then flinging shit at them from either side of Hadrian's Wall like caged chimps unable to see beyond the confines of their unthinking prejudice.

The problem with the independence debate is that is divisive to its core and there is a tendency for both sides to re-write history to accommodate their own current political viewpoint. In reality, it means the working people of this island will be split more than ever by a nationalist wedge from both sides of the border, and we will all be less powerful for it.

The nationalist debate is absolutist in nature and personally I believe that plays into the hands of the haters and those who would profit from the increasing marginalisation of the working and middle classes. It's a simplistic viewpoint and lacks the nuance that ignores the fact that on this island we are one people under three different flags; three rich and ancient traditions that are intricately intertwined and interdependent and kept alive by ordinary people who have had to labour under an unfair and unjust feudal system for a millennia; a system they neither chose or really endorse, that keeps them from power and influence and for which they have died and suffered in their millions, had their land stolen all across the island and been put to work for the profit of the ever-present 1%.

Types like Cameron and Salmond revel in this atmosphere of hate and division, men of small moral stature, zero intellectual or idealogical substance and devoid of any integrity. We get the leaders we vote for, and neither of these poltroons or their ilk are worthy of our votes. Equality? That's out of the window for the foreseeable future. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

I live on this island, I've ancestry from all over the island and beyond and as far as I'm concerned the borders are political and not cultural or genetic. We're one people, for better or worse and we'd be better off as one people.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 07:00 AM

I `ad that McTavish in my cab the other day. I picked `im up at the "`ighland Inn" and I was surprised `e wasn`t pickled, in fact `e was quite subdued. I thought maybe `ed got `aggis down `is sporran
I said, " Afternoon Jock, You been `alf on the wagon then? It aint your usual self I`m seeing after a session in there."
`e said, "Nah Jim. Living down in the smoke all these years, I just been reading that Mudcat about Scotland and got quite nostalgic about all its treasures. I got a lump in my throat and I just couldn`t sink it"
I said, "Why so sad then?"
`e said, " It`s the bloody neighbours!!"


Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 07:15 AM

Allan. Scotland doesn't own The Bank of England, The UK does. Nobody is offering a referendum over breaking up The UK. It shall exist and so shall its assets. Nobody asked us otherwise.

Jim. Stop saying Scotland didn't vote in conservatives. Neither did most of The UK. If they had won, they would have a mandate from you and I for Westminster decisions. It is called parliamentary democracy. Just like Salmond is offering you if he wins. Rules for coalitions seem similar in his Utopian delusion too.

Not every day I read and nod in agreement with Darling, but on this, his fears for Scotland seem to weigh up to me.

I suppose Salmond could resurrect his offer for a Celtic tiger with Iceland and Ireland? If he acts shrewdly, he might extend the offer to Portugal, Spain and Greece....

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 07:20 AM

"that ignores the fact that on this island we are one people under three different flags;"

That though isn't a fact. It is an opinion. And many people wouldn't share that opinion instead seeing us as three peoples under one flag. Nothing to do with hating anyone etc. (a Canadian person recognising that he is different to an American perosn doesn't mean he hates that American) Just a view that the Scottish, English and Welsh are three nations sharing an island and currently in a political union with some of the Irish on another island. The Scots are only deciding whether they wish to remain in that union or not!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 08:02 AM

Stu, you are confusing nationalism with democracy. There is no hatred of the English or anybody else in the argument for Scottish Independence, all the bile and anger like your own seems to becoming from the NO side. I can only emphasise that it is the inhabitants, the tax payers, of Scotland who will be voting and although obviously most are Scottish, there are many different nationalities who will be voting YES. The colour of the Westminster government has been decided by the people of England since 1945 .... do some research .... if the Scottish voting figures are removed, the government would have been the same.
All we are saying is that an independent Scotland would have the government of its choice and England would have the same, pure democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 09:35 AM

I'm not on the yes or no side, although as I said in my previous post if I lived in Scotland I'd vote yes. However, I think it will divide the working people of our island, possibly forever. When they closed the furnaces at Ravenscraig there were plenty of us mourning the death of an island-wide steel industry, now that concern will matter less.

As for democracy, we don't have accountability at local or national level, and there is no popular mandate for the current lot. We live in a society run by economists and shills for big business and the establishment; it's never gone away and will entrench itself even further after independence. Salmond is like the rest of them as he's shown on numerous occasions.

Odd you have to be on one side or the other though isn't it? Absolutism all the way.


"And many people wouldn't share that opinion instead seeing us as three peoples under one flag."

No doubt they wouldn't, but so what? The idea we are three radically different peoples is complete twaddle. My mum's Welsh (with a brilliantly rum Scottish ancestor) with rumours of other Scots I haven't traced yet, my dad is English with a dose of Huguenot and Gypsy and like most people on these islands I'm a lovely big mix. Three peoples? One mix of many peoples.

I'm not arguing about retaining our regional differences (of course we should) as they are about identity and diversity and are massively important. I simply don't see any long-term winners in this situation. Mind you, you could argue that the same would be true if Scotland says no, so there you go.

Our ancestors lived on these islands without any borders, they were one land. We are their descendants and we are one people.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 12:12 PM

"The idea we are three radically different peoples is complete twaddle"

Stu I don't think anybody suggested we were "radically different" though. Certainly I didn't.

"Scotland doesn't own The Bank of England, The UK does. Nobody is offering a referendum over breaking up The UK."

Musket the UK owns the bank of England and an indepent Scotland would of course expect its share of UK assets as well as its share of UK national debt. Nobody is ending the UK. The vote is about Scotland deciding whether to leave or not. The principle of self determination is going on here. A UK wide referendum on whether Scotland could leave or not would not be self determination as 9 out of 10 Brits don't live in Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 12:41 PM

I wonder if Latvia, Lithuania or Estonia would have achieved independence if the whole of Russia had been allowed to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 01:00 PM

Ah well. I suppose it is none of my business in a way, being English and all that.

I still love the place, and can't wait to get back (though not to that racist git's shop in Edinburgh).

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 01:12 PM

Normally I would say I have no dog in this race but I do. I am an invester in the Scottish economy but quite rightly not given a vote on this referendum.

However, if half the claims of Salmond & co had a basis, logic would dictate the rest of The UK would have a say too, as you can't invent GDP (you can bullshit it mind) and for every action there is a reaction.

I think the parish pump in Leith is about as good as it gets. However, I can't help wondering if those lining up behind SNP on the "independent" ticket would agree with his actual policies.

Be careful when waking up in a bed you got into with a hard on.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 03:38 PM

"I can't help wondering if those lining up behind SNP on the "independent" ticket would agree with his actual policies"

The vote is not about one party's domestic Scottish policies or about one politician's policies. It is about the future of the country. If Scotland voted YES - and let's face it that is still a big if even with the latest poll showing a real narrowing in the race - then sometime shortly afterwards the Nats would be going to the country. It is perfectly possible that the first full term Scottish gvt could be something other than an SNP gvt.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 03:45 PM

Mind setting aside the referendum polls this week, which were good news for the SNP,they must be over the moon with the polls in regard to voting intentions in the forthcoming European elections. With 43% of the poll they are only 1% below the combined share of the vote for Labour (24%) the Conservatives (14%) and the Lib Dems (6%) who have only 44% between the lot of them. Mid way through a second term in office that is pretty astonishing!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Raedwulf
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 03:53 PM

Expanding on my previous remark, I am sure that there are many in Scotland, and many Scots outside (such as that loud and notorious tax-dodger, Mr Connery) who think Scotland would be better off voting Yes. If what Salmond is promising appeals to you (& you actually believe he is both willing & capable of delivering it); if you have some particular interest (such as being against nuclear weapons), then I can easily see why the notion appeals to you.

On the other hand, you already have an unprecedented degree of autonomy within the UK (no-one has offered the English a regional parliament). You still have a hand in our pie (all the Scots MPs in Westminster - you have more influence over decisions that affect just us than we have over decisions that affect just you). This slimy notion promoted by the SNP that you can pick & choose which bits you declare independence on & keep the bits that suit you best (i.e. the bits that the remaining UK presumably end up subsiding you on), such as the BoE, really? Either go the whole hog, or say No.

Details aside; I've taken little interest in the debate as a whole since I have no voice in it, so I can't really say much; I just think it's a bad idea. Scotland isn't going to sink without trace if it declares full independence; neither is England. I just think that, on the whole, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. We would all be better off in a still united UK, rather than fragmenting.