BS: One Space or two?

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 06:56 AM

I learned to use a keyboard in my first job as a computer operator. I can still type "£display disks" really fast. £display disks. £display disks. £display disks. £display disks. £display disks. Just over 2 seconds each time I reckon.

How about that for a piece of useless information?!!

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 03:59 AM

I got the F and O and R without a problem, but NOTAM leaves me utterly mystified.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 01:47 AM

Gnu, think Phonetic Alphabet.

Foxtrot Oscar = F.O. = F**k Off.
Romeo = R = Right.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 07:47 PM

In my high school (1930s) only girls not in the academic (pre-college) curriculum were allowed to take typing.
I taught myself a four finger method when I was in university.

Always had typists where I worked, they were good at reading script and squiggles.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 06:18 PM

I exaggerate - I started typing when I was 10, on a machine my father got me (writing poetry) - but I always used 1 space, even at that early age...

I was a poet, and didn't know it.
Alternatively:
I wuz a pote, and didn't note.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: PHJim
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 05:46 PM

Will, You're almost as old as I am and I'm surprised that you were taught this way. I am also surprised that you were learning to type at age 5. I was in high school before I was taught typing.
The space a person leaves when writing with a pen will vary with the person wielding the pen (or pencil). We don't number spaces when we're writing; only when we're typing.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 02:56 PM

Foks-trot row-me-oh oss-cah would be educational within this discussion, no? Is a NOTAM in order?

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 01:22 PM

I'm in Will's gang.
I was taught one space after a full stop.
Our typists were taught one space after a full stop, and that served them for RSA Examinations.
I've always used one space.
I always will.
Anyone who doesn't like it can Foxtrot Oscar.
In fact they can Foxtrot Romeo Oscar.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 10:52 AM

I was taught at school to put one space after a full stop.
I started to write when I was 5.
I've been writing for 65 years, with one space after a full stop.
I'm too old to change.
And I couldn't actually care less.

Try putting two spaces into HTMl - it's ignored and comes out as one space on the screen, unless you use "preformatted text" in the HTML.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 10:25 AM

"A momentous subject worthy of thousands of mudcat's pages. "

We have said more about less.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 10:16 AM

"Those who want their double space displayed must replace one of the space characters by   = "non-breaking space"."


In the source, I see nbsp seems to have been automatically added when I use the space key 3-4 times.    I am not sure what it all means, but I want MY choices to be used.   Thank you very much!

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 10:10 AM

Display 2 or 3 spaces as only one?   Let me see about that. I can't remember that happening.    Now for the test.


It didn't happen in preview.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 01:41 PM

Ah, well: should have realised it wouldn't wrap!

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 01:35 PM

We could try writing posts in boustrophedon [= ox-plough] ~~ thus -

Ithinkitwouldbeagoodideatowriteforwardsandbackwardsinaboustrephodonwhichmakesthewordswithoutspacesgobackwards&forwardsinlinesofalternativedirectionbutonlypartofthatformulationwillbepossiblehereasthereisnowayIcanseeofreversingdirectionsoweshalljusthavetoforgotheback&forthelementandjustdispensewithspaceslikethis

Wonder how that will look when I have clicked on "Submit"!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 01:14 PM

A momentous subject worthy of thousands of mudcat's pages.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 12:40 PM

imho,LOL! brb!

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 12:34 PM

Bill, take a look at the source code. The HTML gurus declared that browsers must display any amount of consecutive space characters as a single one (unless in <pre> sections). Obviously they had never heard of that practice. I for one do not see any advantage whatsoever.

Those who want their double space displayed must replace one of the space characters by   = "non-breaking space".

Some people actually use no space character at all after punctuation marks, either for laziness, or because they learned it when typewriter paper and postage were expensive and had to be economized. This is disastrous particularly in international communication, since it may confuse translation software.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 12:11 PM

ummm.. leenia, in your last post, you used only one space before IF.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Becca72
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 11:20 AM

Medical Transcriptionist here - it's always two spaces after a "full stop", which can be a period, exclamation point, question mark, etc. That is also how I was taught in school in the Northeastern US in the 80s.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 10:36 AM

I've always put two spaces after the end of a sentence, whether it ends with., ?, or !. If typographers have decided that ., ? or ! should be followed by only one space, they should have let the rest of us know.

I believe I'll continue to use two spaces, simply because the habit is so ingrained with me.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 04:39 AM

I would have thought it was mobile phones [cell phones] and text messages that encouraged "B4" and "U", rather than computer keyboards, as it is the small screen and the cost of sending messages that requires such brevity.
This is the first time I have ever used either contraction. On the rare occasions when I do send text messages they contain complete words, proper sentences and punctuation.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 10:28 PM

*I* was a "nerdy typesetter" 40 years ago. No, not a professional one; I had a treadle operated, 3-roller platen letterpress very much like this one.... and several drawers of kinda standard type faces... plus a large box of pied type. It was just a hobby, though I did several jobs for friends. (One of the last type foundries, The Missouri Central foundry, in the US was in Wichita, Kansas, only 10 minutes from me, and the owner, Ross Thomas, lived right across the street from me.)

I did read a lot about type setting, and the main goal was to make everything LOOK good, which meant using different thicknesses of spaces after a period, depending on the face being used and the place in the line where a sentence ended. I had 3-4 different spacers available to adjust the look of different jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 08:11 PM

If in doubt, use two spaces.
Any 'nerdy' typesetter who insists you are wrong can always do a 'search & replace', replacing all double spaces with single spaces.
Of course, they may need to repeat the action in case you've accidentally typed a triple space.

Alternately (if it makes you feel happier) use only single spaces. If that goes against their 'style guide' they can do a search & replace for any full stop (period) which is followed by a space.

In these days of word-processing the argument is somewhat pointless

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: PHJim
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 07:43 PM

Our typing teacher in the late '50s taught us to use two spaces after a period and the text that he taught from agreed. The switch from type-writers to computer keyboards has changed a lot of our writing standards. "Before" has become "B4", "you" is now "U"...

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 06:20 PM

My typing teacher back in high school (when dinosaurs roamed the earth) said, "one space after commas and semicolons, two spaces after colons and periods", i.e., full stops.

I guess there have been a lot of changes since then, with the advent of computers and all.

Next Sunday my wife and I are hosting our monthly writers' group at our apartment. I'll put the question to them.

I've Googled a bunch and come up with a lot of conflicting information, so I'm on the verge of assuming that it's "catch-as-catch-can."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 05:58 PM

Long years since I learned to type ~~ during National Service in the Royal Army Service Corps in 1951, when I started a clerk's course before being sent to a War Office Selection Board for a commission. We learned in a very formalised system. There were musical recordings for the various speeds at which touch-typing was taught as one progressed. But I particularly remember a printed notice, no less, displayed in large letters in the typing-training room, which read, in bold where shown:

DO NOT FORGET

one space after a comma,
two spaces after a semi-colon; or colon:
three spaces after a full-stop.

I don't know whose system it was that the War Office in its wisdom had chosen to adopt; but that was what it commanded in not-to-be-gainsaid military-style tones. I could no more forget these instructions than I could forget my regimental number (and I bet every single ex-serviceman reading this will remember his unhesitatingly -- just as I do, after 63 years!)

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 01:13 PM

When we finished a research project, we usually had a particular journal in mind. Our typists followed the rules of the journal when she typed our rough MS.
In other words, we never thought about spacing; we just followed the journal's style format.

archy couldn t care less

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 07:13 AM

The 'texts with no space after a full stop' that I was remarking on occur in lines where the other spaces are shared out evenly over the line, making it obvious that the space after the full stop is missing - often the spaces that are there are larger than one would wish, and would have been smaller if evened out with the added space that should have been there.

On italic punctuation, I have a very old Chicago Style Manual that insists that all punctuation following italics should be italic. The more usual method is to use italics where the punctuation is part of the italic phrase, but not if it is part of the rest of the sentence when this is not in italics, such as following an italic book title.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 06:44 AM

It's one space. I kern hardly believe there's any argument!

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 03:52 AM

I already keep finding texts with no space after a full stop. It often happens in newspaper articles,

Because newsapers and magazines generally use narrow columns, it is very common to "compress" each line so that the edges, especially on the right, aren't "ragged."

This is usually done by narrowing all of the spaces in each line, or in some cases by stretching them all. Unless you've got a very good eye and understand how it's being done, shortening a double-space may look like only a single space was used. Few people can tell the difference consistently when looking at printed work.

A similar "adjustment" is used in book publishing, where it's considered important to prevent "rivers" where spaces in each of several lines (usually three or more) all "line up" with each other so that it looks like someone slashed the page with a knife and made a gap that runs down the page.

Similar effects are applied to line spacing (leading) by professional publishers, so that the number of lines on a page may vary (by one or two lines either way) without being visually obvious to the reader. The leading adjustment is used to avoid "orphans" where most of a paragraph is on one page with an "orphan fragment" (only one or two lines) on the preceding or following page.

A difference between Word Processing programs and Page Layout programs is in how easily, and to what exxtent, effects of these kinds can be applied. A very skilled user in Microsoft Word (until version 2007 when they hid - or removed - all the tools) could use, or at least closely emulate, most of these. Page layout programs like PageMaker (mainly used by book publishers) and FrameMaker (best suited for magazines and newsletters) make it easier, and usually allow finer adjustments.

The program doesn't matter much if the "typespiller" doesn't know what should be done. And for nonprofessional work it doesn't matter to most readers (if there are any).

John

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 03:19 AM

The world is running out of space and we all should do all we can to preserve what we have.

Also, take care with the use of capital letters, bold face, and other things that tend to use up lots of space on your or someone else's hard drive. All of the bytes and bits that move around the Web and the Internet can clog the channels and nodes, so please don't use it for frivolous purposes. Remember, our resources are finite and must be conserved for future generations yet unborn

Thread drift, but an interesting analogue to that, (in my view!) Decades ago I heard a radio interview of a Famous Author, during which the interviewer remarked on the unusually rich vocabulary of said author. As a child, FA explained, they had been told never to use the same word several times in a paragraph and not often even over long sections of text. In their childish way, they had combined this with the sight of adults saying things like "what's that word, it's on the tip of my tongue ..." and having to be told by others, and concluded you could only use any word a certain number of times in your entire life. It was avoiding that calamity that led him from an early stage to squirrel away as many synonyms as he could.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Neil D
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 01:20 AM

Who wants to hit the space bar twice after every sentence. I don't even feel like keying it once anymore.Hell I'm so tired of that damn space bar,I'mnotgoingtouseitatallanymoreorpunctuationeithersothere

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 11:31 PM

After due consideration and much soul searching, I fear that I must come down on the side of the one-spacers.

The world is running out of space and we all should do all we can to preserve what we have.

Also, take care with the use of capital letters, bold face, and other things that tend to use up lots of space on your or someone else's hard drive. All of the bytes and bits that move around the Web and the Internet can clog the channels and nodes, so please don't use it for frivolous purposes. Remember, our resources are finite and must be conserved for future generations yet unborn.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Padre
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 09:23 PM

Two is the default setting on my word processing software. Like that. Or this. If I type only one space, it gets snarky and highlights it when I spellcheck the document. I don't like to argue with a computer, so I use two spaces.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 09:18 PM

such as TYPING EVERYTHING IN CAPS

LiK once received a "manuscript" from a panic stricken author who claimed to have had it fully reviewed, but needed to get it submitted to the printer in 3 days. She agreed to set it up in PageMaker and make the EPS file for printing, before learning that he had typed THE ENTIRE BOOK IN ALL CAPS. (He thought it would make it easier for the reviewers to read.)

Recollection is that it was about 500 pages (I think it was The History of Alcoholics Anonymous in West Virginia.)

"We" made the date, although it wasn't easy even with two computers working all day and all night right up to the drop-deadline.

At the time, missing a "print date" typically meant rescheduling and printing not less than six months later, so she did the A**h**e a really big favor.

(He didn't even send her a comp copy of the book.)

Relative to the original debate: If a "." ends an italicized text string, should the "." be italicized? (In some fonts, there is a difference.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 09:03 PM

when every letter means i have to climb up on the frame of the typewriter and do a header off the frame and hope i hit the right key i hope you understand why i tend to take a few shortcuts

archy

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 09:01 PM

... and I remember the time archy found THE CAPSLOCK KEY on and MADE EVERYONE WINCE.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 09:01 PM

Many publishers insist that "raw manuscripts" should be in monospaced type, as when produced on a manual or electric typewriter. IFF you are using a monospaced type, the two spaces after a "." is preferred.

With computer generated proportional fonts, most fonts will insert the necessary extra space, so you only need to type one space.

For editing/reviewing manuscripts the editor/reviewer should specify whether they want "set type" or "monospaced."

Final proofreading should ALWAYS be done on a copy in which all spacing, leading, sizing, facing (bold/italic etc), and other effects are as close as possible to the final product intended.

For formal publishing work, YOU DO NOT DECIDE THINGS LIKE THIS. The PRINT SHOP, or the PUBLISHER, tells you what do do, and you do exactly as you're told.

For business use, you can do about anything you want, since the boss will probably tell you to make it into a PowerPoint slideshow so she/he can take a nap while (s)he pretends to care about your pitch. (The ad dept will make it pretty and remove all meaningful content anyway.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 07:45 PM

pfui

i was once a vers libre bard
but I died and my soul went into the body of a cockroach
it has given me a new outlook upon life
I see things from the underside now
...............

don marquis
the lives and times of archy and mehitabel

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 07:26 PM

Well, yeah, I'm pretty much with you, Bill. I try to make my writing (typing) reflect the way I speak.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 06:23 PM

I'll be gobsmacked! I never heard of this controversy till this thread.

I tend to use just a single space, which always seems like plenty. When typing papers in college on a Hermes Portable, no one EVER told me to do anything different! I suppose if I'd not used ANY spacing, I'd have heard.

My real eccentricity is misuse of ellipsis.... which I do just because that's the way my mind works. I 'see' little pauses in sentences and indicate them with... ummm... dots. In this medium I try to do what ever I can to make my typing look like I'd talk.

Anyway, I think there are more important concerns, such as TYPING EVERYTHING IN CAPS... or almost as bad, not capitalizing anything.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 06:04 PM

Okay. I'll check to make sure other articles and sources agree, then if that's it, then that's it.

I guess I need to update my copy of the Chicago Style Manual.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 05:22 PM

>>As soon as it's endorsed by the Chicago Style Manual and the New York Times style manual (two manuals generally accepted by most scholars and publishing companies), I'll buy it.<<<

If the article is correct then that time is NOW!!!


"Every major style guide—including the Modern Language Association Style Manual and the Chicago Manual of Style—prescribes a single space after a period. "

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 05:17 PM

And what about the space BEFORE the punctuation (see Rapparee's post above)? Books published early last century often have a space before punctuation such as a semi-colon. Modern French punctuation still does, before question and exclamation marks and before colons and semi-colons. Set your Word documents to French instead of English and it will put the spaces in for you whether you want them or not. But I usually assume that a space before, or lack of space after, a full stop is just the result of careless typing rather than a deliberate choice.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 05:06 PM

All writing should be done two spaces. That's the way I was brung up and my upbringing demands two spaces .

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Bert
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 04:59 PM

I think that I'm with you on this one Spaw.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 04:16 PM

The one-space for typesetting is to render the body copy (non-headline) elements of a page graphically unified to produce a grayish tone against which the headsdand white space will "pop". Used to work in the industry before desktop "publishing" dealt it a death blow. I still follow that convention when pubbing up friends'/colleagues' blog entries, using s/r in my WP.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 03:37 PM

True, Jack. But the rest of what I wrote above is currently the case.

As soon as it's endorsed by the Chicago Style Manual and the New York Times style manual (two manuals generally accepted by most scholars and publishing companies), I'll buy it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 03:11 PM

>>now computers, the type-script is not "proportionally spaced."<<

what I see above on my computer screen is proportionally spaced.

I did however, enjoy the rest of your post.

Subject: RE: BS: One Space or two?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 02:58 PM

The reason for the double-space after a period (full stop) is to clearly indicate the end of the sentence. With the standard typewriter, and now computers, the type-script is not "proportionally spaced." All the letters occupy an equal amount of space.

Back shortly after the Big Bang, when I was taking typing in high school, the teacher told us this. Later, if I goofed and used only one space following a period in college term papers, I would often see that the prof had made a blue check mark over the period, indicating a typing error. Too much of this and I could get nicked a whole letter grade.

I have a number of books on writing and the proper way to prepare a typed manuscript for submission to a publisher, and ALL of these manuals indicate that in a typewritten script, the period—or a question mark, or an exclamation point—should be followed by two spaces. And—I have submitted about twenty manuscripts to various magazines and had them published, so I'm not without experience in this area.

So where this one-space thing came from—well, everything I have learned, from authoritative sources, contradicts this "one space" rule.

On the printed page, however, with "proportional spacing" and the letters occupying only as much white space as they need, only one space is used.

BUT—this is up to the typesetter at the publishing company.

Don Firth

P. S. Poor typing can result in an otherwise very good manuscript being rejected.

Addendum:   After writing the above, I spent some time Googling, and found that, at the present, there is a disagreement going on in a number of publishing companies and among typesetters as to "one space or two," and the matter is far from settled yet.