BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'

Subject: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 02:02 PM

"One step forward and two steps back,
That's the method of the Liberal attack".................Will Geer, 1950

http://www.alternet.org/culture/george-lakoff-communication-liberals-do-everything-wrong?paging=off¤t_page=1#bookmark

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 02:06 PM

Liberals do everything wrong

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 03:22 PM

I've read quite a bit of George Lakoff's writing. The reason Liberals often loose arguments to Right Wingers is that they all too often allow the Right Winger to set the terms and definitions of the discussion.

Example:   When a Right Winger, refers to taxation as a "tax burden," if you don't attack this term "burden" right away, you've accepted his argument. Taxes are the dues one pays for living in a civilized society, and should not be any more of a "burden" than membership dues in a club or the price of a ticket to get into a movie theater.

Stop the argument right there and challenge the term. If you let your opponent frame the argument in terms of his choice, you've lost already.

Don't let the other guy get away with it!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: gnu
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 03:47 PM

Well said, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: Stu
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 04:05 PM

'Liberals' differs in definition according to which side of the Atlantic you live on.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: GUEST,michaelr
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 04:41 PM

Lakoff is a smart cookie. He has identified the main reasons why progressive politics is getting nowhere in the US. I wish more of us paid attention.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 05:36 PM

"'Liberals' differs in definition according to which side of the Atlantic you live on."

Also which side of the US border you live on.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 06:27 PM

The fact that Mr Lakoff fails to address, is that the system determines the policy....political, economic and social.

Under our present socio-economic system, democracy, equality, freedom etc, are simply "beliefs", impossible to implement.

Our leaders allow us to pay lip service, limited "rights" legislation on issues which are no danger to the system and often highly divisive in social terms, are encouraged, while any move towards real equality is viciously put down. The wealth gap is allowed to widen to reinforce the Capitalist ethos...unemployment and short time contracts are actively encouraged in the name of "competitiveness".
The taxpayer is openly robbed to reset a failing and corrupt economy.

Mr Lakoff is of course correct, these "liberal" smokescreens set back progressive politics by decades.

As I have said here many times, the "liberal intelligentsia" are a much greater danger to a better world in the future, than working class conservatives.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 06:34 PM

Ake, what in the hell are you talking about!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 06:40 PM

"liberals" don't do what's written on the tin.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 06:41 PM

They don't even like the taste of what's actually IN the tin.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 06:42 PM

"'Liberals' differs in definition according to which side of the Atlantic you live on."

'Liberals' differs in definition depending on what you want it to mean if Mudcat is anything to go by.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 11:00 PM

Quite a good, comprehensive article on the origins and various flavors of Liberalism:   CLICKY.

Inform yourself. Especially those folks who think they already know.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 04:16 AM

In the UK, politically ' Liberal ' is a euphemism for wanker.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 04:31 AM

Don, that article on "liberalism" was obviously collated by "liberals".

Are you seriously trying to say that we live in a democratic, egalitarian, or liberal society?

What Lakoff was saying, was that pseudo liberals ("liberals"), inhibit progressive politics.......they never, and have no intention of ever, addressing the REAL problems in society,(hint!! not "gay marriage")
The REAL problems are systemic.........inform YOURSELF.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 08:53 AM

The key point, akenhateon, is this: -

"According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, "In the United States, liberalism is associated with the welfare-state policies of the New Deal program of the Democratic administration of Pres. Franklin D. Roosevelt, whereas in Europe it is more commonly associated with a commitment to limited government and laissez-faire economic policies."[11] Consequently in the U.S., the ideas of individualism and laissez-faire economics previously associated with classical liberalism, became the basis for the emerging school of right wing libertarian thought.[12]"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 09:16 AM

I find it ironic but I'm pretty sure that the specific definition of "liberal" that Mr. Lakoff, is using is fairly recent and was created as a pejorative for people who did not share the Goldwater/Reagan delusion that "government is the problem" and other such nonsense that Old money GOP and the Dixicrats used to unify themselves after the Civil Rights Act passed.

It was a reaction to Viet Nam and the Oil Crisis and other such disasters brought on in the 60's and 70's by "conservative" stances such as fighting communism and "supporting Israel"

Of course they might think that asking to be elected to govern under the banner of government does not work is a sane and prudent thing. But obviously it undermined the very things, democracy, equality, freedom, that Akenaton said were only "beliefs."

"Trickle down economics", "deregulation", and regressive tax cuts are as good an argument as could ever be for reeducation camps. Because they undermine the very foundation of our society. Because rich people control the media and to a greater and greater extent the institutions of education, progress is being undermined. It is the reason we are using phrases like "tax burden" the way we are.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 09:42 AM

"Love Me, I'm a Liberal" written by Phil Ochs.

I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me
Love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me
Love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
And I'm glad the commies were thrown out
Of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
As long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me
Love me, I'm a liberal

The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crane?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me
Love me, I'm a liberal

Yes, I read New Republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like Korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me
Love me, I'm a liberal

I vote for the democratic party
They want the U.N. to be strong
I attend all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs
And I'll send all the money you ask for
But don't ask me to come on along
So love me, love me
Love me, I'm a liberal

Sure once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
Ah, but I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me
Love me, I'm a liberal

############################33

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: Midchuck
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 09:45 AM

IMO, Liberals do half of everything wrong. Conservatives do the other half.

UP THE RADICAL MIDDLE!

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 10:57 AM

That's cool, GUEST. Never heard all the verses before.

So true it draws blood!

This is a folk music forum, why can't the folks here understand what the guy is saying?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 11:10 AM

"akenhateon"......I'll put that down as a typo this time Richard.

You may be unaware that name calling is presently frowned upon on this forum. Re Jack for forum rules.

You Richard, fraudulently present yourself here as a Socialist. If you were any kind of socialist, you would not see criticism of the excesses of capitalism as "hatred".

If you want to take me on over any OTHER subject, start a new thread on that subject....don't be shy, try standing on your own for a change.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 11:49 AM

The point that Lakoff is making, politics have more to do with a psychological mindset that either nourishes or punishes members of society and this dictates systems of governing. You can be in conflict with both viewpoints, what Lakoff calls "A bi-conceptual".

The case for progressivism, socialism etc. has not been sufficiently made since these views are dictated by a cultural propensity for acceptance or rejection. The same is true of Capitalism, which is largely mistaken for "Free Enterprise". Capitalism has to do with investment in finance such as in stocks, bonds and financial issuance. Free Enterprise is the ability to make privately a product, something the US has forgotten to do.

The radical middle can be dictatorial, authoritarian or it can be nourishing, accepting, loving and open. There is no middle, really. That's a myth that both Repubs and Dems like to propagate. Notice how the so-called middle has shifted radically to the "right" over the last decade making Clinton and Obama two of the last Republican presidents whereas the Republican party has turned fascist. The definition of fascism is the merging of corporations and government such as was done by Mussolini.

The Democratic Party has become corrupted by the authoritarian world view that entails the employment of military weaponry in the Mid-East and an equivocation in adopting Republican extremist foreign and economic policies, a good reason not to vote for Hillary.

We are a long way from the New Deal.

Phil Ochs song reveals the bitterness about what liberalism has become, especially it's distortion into neo-liberalism but Phil needed to talk about an antidote, not a criticism.
Pete Seeger for the most of his career did exactly this in his songs.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 11:57 AM

I am once again having trouble understanding what people are saying. So far what I've seen looks like this:

Good guys (your party). . . . . . . . . .Bad guys (the other party).

Keriste, you folks have no idea how good you got it. In Canada we have three parties cosmetically different who are for the most part on the Bad guys side from my POV, one party that became history last federal election, and the Green Party (good for you MP May). So what I propose is this: Would people please explain in small words with as few superlatives/hyperboles as possible exactly what they mean when they say each of the following. If you are so inclined, feel free to address both the proper and the common nouns. For example,

Liberal means
liberal means
Conservative means
conservative means
Democrat means
democrat means
Republican means
republican means
Independent means
independent means
Socialist
socialist
Fascist
fascist
Dick head
forget that one

when I say it. I'll put in my own definitions after ten other people have posted theirs. OK, eight. The reason I ask is that rather than read you as a rambling writer of euphemistic prose, I'd much prefer to know what you mean. The you in that statement means all of us. It's difficult for me to see so many bright people saying seemingly intelligent things if I can't get an idea of how we define the various terms.

Lest GfS thinks I didn't read his 'liberal agenda' answer, be assured I did. If you'd care to rephrase in perhaps more easily understood prose I would be grateful.

Thank you.

(Good song, Ake. However, I never did understand Phil's reference to 'Dykes of the American Revolution'. Saw him do it live somewhere in Indiana back about '68, and it lessened the song's impact, imo. Was great to hear from you, btw, and later today or tomorrow I'll get an email back to you.)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 12:21 PM

Frank.....Socialism is only a necessary "starting point" in the creation of a better society, not an end in itself.

Whether it accepted or rejected by the individual is neither here or there, it must evolve from the mess we have presently.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 12:29 PM

So good, it could have been you old pal!    :0)

Loved the "political" song.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 12:36 PM

Hey! They are not my rules. They are posted for all on the "membership" page. I'm not frowning on any one. For the most part, I am gleefully pointing out that people disregarding the rules are making fools of themselves.

I'm not gleeful this time. I suggest you carefully read this then consider whether accusing someone of fraud is polite or argumentative. It seems to me that it may be. But who am I to judge?

"You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what-we-do-not-speak."

"You Richard, fraudulently present yourself here as a Socialist. "

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 01:24 PM

Well Jack, Richard did start his post by addressing me as "akenhateon"
He has demonstrated that he is no socialist, by sneering at other members whom he thinks are less well educated than himself.

I have contacted him personally to inform him that I had received abusive, anonymous messages attacking him (which I deleted), yet he has continually insulted me and falsely accused me of "hatred" towards travellers and other minorities.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 01:28 PM

Stringsinger's post just above (Feb 3, 11.49 a.m.) is right on the button!

Don Firth

P. S. By the way Ake, it sounds to me like you're talking Communism. Been tried in several countries. Flopped everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 02:20 PM

Common mistake Don. Try giving it a bit more thought.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 02:41 PM

OH Shit!....life's too short Jack :0)

Richard, apologies for calling you a fraud, maybe your just a bit eccentric :0)

I'll look forward to a nod in my direction over the "hatred" jibes, then we can be friends....eh?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 03:03 PM

I'm not politically naïve, Ake and I've given it a lot of thought. Try being clear and straightforward.

What ARE you in favor of? And why?

You never know. You might even have a convert.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 02:58 AM

"Taxes are the dues one pays for living in a civilized society, and should not be any more of a "burden" than membership dues in a club or the price of a ticket to get into a movie theater."

You are comparing apples to oranges Don. Last time I looked the membership dues in a club and the price of a ticket to get into a movie theatre are standard, i.e. the same for all - Taxes are not. Here in the UK the top 5% earners pay something like 45% of the total revenue collected in taxes, 60% of the population contribute nothing at all.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 03:29 AM

That is because a huge percentage of people are living on very low wages, part time contracts, or in receipt of state benefits.

The problem is the gap between rich and poor, it is ever widening and is an integral part of the Capitalist system.
The system need to contain something to "aspire" to. In our case, it is to be better off financially than ones neighbour.

This produces a very unhealthy society.
Some of the largest profit makers in the UK pay no taxes at all.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 09:53 AM

"yet he has continually insulted me and falsely accused me of "hatred" towards travellers and other minorities."

FALSELY?....................

Your views on travellers are well documented and they don't stem from some specious concern over "health".

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 10:06 AM

"What ARE you in favor of? And why?"

Simple Don;

Back to hunter gathering and subsistence farming, without the sense to know that there was a reason why those lifestylesare in the distant past.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 10:11 AM

Capitalism is the worst system of civilisation, except for all the others which have been tried,...... and failed!

Of course this is the view of those who don't know the difference between Capitalism and Corporatism.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 10:21 AM

Michael Labeit has good remarks about Capitalism and Corporatism differences.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 10:30 AM

I think that this conversation has taken an appropriate turn from the opening post. Quibbling about personal interpretation of the meanings of loaded phrases seems the only logical course.

From: akenaton - PM
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 02:41 PM

OH Shit!....life's too short Jack :0)

Thank you for making some effort to attempt to try to understand what I have been trying to say. :o)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 12:17 PM

Guest.....I was brought up in a "subsistence" society.
No one was well off, we all had to work hard, we wasted nothing and mended everything.
There was no corporatism, and the farmers and merchants just made a living.
The community spirit and "culture" were wonderful, everyone sang, played an instrument, or entertained in whatever way they could.
No one complained if the singing or playing was not up to professional standard, every effort was appreciated.

Doctors were on call round the clock....they had a vocation, not a licence to rip off the NHS.
People still had a sense of responsibility for themselves and their families.

Life was a struggle, but it was a "struggle" that made life worthwhile.

Contrast that with the consumerist society we have today, with its waste, blighted cities, unemployment, drug abuse, uneducated children,
disgusting entertainment industry, parasitical banking system.

"What a wonderful world"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 12:27 PM

No corporatism? Have you heard of Rolls Royce and the Hudson Bay Company? The 1% have been ruling Britain ever since the Magna Carta. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Liberals do everything wrong.'
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 03:44 PM

They never ruled Polmadie!!

Napoleon wis an emporir, he ruled ower land an' sea,
he wis king o' France an' Germany, but he niver ruled Polmadie! :0)