Review: New book - Singing from the Floor

Subject: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: Jim McLean
Date: 15 Feb 14 - 11:03 AM

Singing from the Floor, by JP Bean is a new collection of comments and experiences from almost every Folk singer/writer in the British Isles and some from the USA from the fifties until the present day. Chapters cover probably every club in the UK, extremely interesting for old and new folkies. Published by Faber and Faber.

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: GUEST,michaelr
Date: 15 Feb 14 - 02:56 PM

It's difficult to sing from a prone position; why would anyone do it? Much better to sing standing up.

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 14 - 04:58 PM

Review
In smoky rooms above pubs, bare rooms with battered stools and beer-stained tables, where the stage was little more than a scrap of carpet and sound systems were unheard of, an acoustic revolution took place in Britain in the 1950s and '60s. This was the folk revival, where a generation of musicians, among much drink and raucous cheer, would rediscover the native songs of their own tradition, as well as the folk and blues coming from across the Atlantic by artists such as Leadbelly, Woody Guthrie and Big Bill Broonzy. Singing from the Floor is the story of this remarkable movement, faithfully captured in the voices of those who formed it by JP Bean. We hear from luminaries such as Shirley Collins, Martin Carthy, Peggy Seeger and Ralph McTell, alongside figures such as Billy Connolly, Jasper Carrott and Mike Harding, who all started their careers on the folk circuit. The book charts the revival's improvised beginnings and its ties to the CND movement, through the heyday of the '60s and '70s, when every university, town and many villages across the country boasted a folk club, to the fallow years of the '80s and '90s. The book finishes on a high note, with the recent resurgence of interest in folk, through such artists as the Lakemans, Sam Lee and Eliza Carthy. It is a joyous, boisterous and hugely entertaining book, and an essential document of our recent history stretching into the past.

Looks interesting

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 14 - 06:57 PM

Chapters cover probably every club in the UK

- Really!!!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: Jim McLean
Date: 16 Feb 14 - 04:51 AM

Sorry, Tim, I should have said the fairly well known clubs, 32 actually, in London, Birmingham, Manchester, Newcastle, Hull, Bradford, Cambridge,Liverpool, Sheffield, Glasgow, Edinburgh and many others. It deals a lot with the formation of these clubs in the 1950s, 60s, 70s, 80s , who set them up and so they booked. I found it very interesting and educational, being reminded and sometimes surprised at who said what to whom.

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 14 - 05:06 AM

The fallow years of the 80s and 90s?
In the 1980S,I do not recall anyone singing from books, standards of floorsingers and guest performance was high,musical experimentation with brass and woodwind was being introduced.

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Feb 14 - 05:11 AM

I went to folk clubs before the 80's then stopped for around 20 years because of juggling demands of offspring, then started visiting again in the 2000's.

Clearly the definition of fallowness is based entirely on my personal life!

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 16 Feb 14 - 06:01 AM

An excellent read. I recommend it to anyone who has survived those times and enjoys a nostalgic look back and to all those who have joined since to find out how it all started.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 14 - 10:40 AM

why, do journalists right such crap "like the fallow years of the 80s and 90s",what is this inaccurate statement based on.

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 14 - 10:43 AM

I note the list of clubs are not in the South. Hampshire was a hot bed when I first got involved in the 60's and 70's.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: Jim McLean
Date: 16 Feb 14 - 11:50 AM

There's one in Cornwall although coming from Paisley, they are nearly all in the South.

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 16 Feb 14 - 12:51 PM

Damn! This writer contacted me asking for info on the NTMC which I ran some years ago, a club that was well talked about , pro and con, at the time. Unfortunately I lost his address before I got the chance to reply, and although I made lots of enquiries I wasn't able to trace him, and he never came back to me. Now the book is out and I'm anxious to see what Mr Bean has written about the club, which was, and still is, the subject of several urban legends about it's strict policy. It was said that no guitars were allowed, not true, that floor singers had to audition outside the clubroom,not true, that we were anti-American, again not true, just ask Tom Paley, Hedy West, Michael Cooney for instance. There were others but I can't remember them all. I do hope thatMr Bean has not perpetuated these kind of stories in his book. I can't wait to get my hands on a copy.

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: Jim McLean
Date: 16 Feb 14 - 02:07 PM

A quote from John Tams " ..... Roy Harris, the organiser, was one of the grat club organisers, but it was quite a tense space to be in when you'd got this back wall of luminaries sitting on the windowsill".

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: Jim McLean
Date: 16 Feb 14 - 02:13 PM

By the way, Roy, the book has no specific agenda regarding clubs or people, but prints interviews with folk who have different opinions from each other. As I said, very illuminating.

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 14 - 02:30 PM

I admit I was shallow
But I wasn't really fallow

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 14 - 05:21 PM

Tense, maybe Tams was a bit tense himself?
it has been my experience in the past when i have been to gigs to hear the person that i have enjoyed on a previous occasion, and i have not always enjoyed the second gig, it is not always the performers fault,it may have been my own mood., likewise maybe Tams was not in the best of form when he arrived at the club.
i have never heard the atmosphere at NTMC described as tense by members of the audience.
the standard of performance was always high[please note no music stands or feckin crib sheets], the fact is that the residents sat on the "sill" behind the performer, this gave an atmosphere of formality perhaps, but knowing Roy Harris and his abilty to emanate a relaxed atmosphere, I am frankly gob smacked by Tams remark.
NTMC had a high standard of residents and was a formal folk club, but I never experienced tension there.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 17 Feb 14 - 04:33 AM

As usual you lot are to busy flaunting your own egos and you mickey mouse ideas to do something mundane as post a link..so I have e done it for you..enjoy


http://www.amazon.co.uk/Singing-Floor-History-British-Clubs/dp/0571305458

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Feb 14 - 05:54 AM

I was only in the NTMC twice, and in both cases, they were a long time after Roy had ceased to run it. I can only say that I thoroughly enjoyed both occasions and I felt no pressure at all to conform to anyone's idea of a folk song (except perhaps my own), that I wasn't auditioned on the stairs or anywhere else, and that musical instruments were very much in evidence. What's more, the seating arrangements of the residents had no effect on me whatsoever.

Frankly I've found many middle of the road clubs to be far less tolerant of unaccompanied traditional style singers than "traditional" clubs were of middle of the road performers. So isn't it strange that, whenever someone opened a club with a traditional policy (NTMC, Singers Club, Grey Cock or wherever), they were immediately accused of elitism, narrow mindedness and the devil only knows what, by the very people who were busily denying the value of the traditions they were seeking to adulterate.

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 17 Feb 14 - 03:26 PM

"fallow years" - in terms of audience numbers probably an accurate statement.

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 14 - 04:16 PM

guest peter,no, not entirely accurate, some clubs were well attended in the eighties,there have always been well attended and not well attended clubs, i can remember a club i went to as member of audience in the sixties in south east london there were 3 people. i can also remember going to carrington club on a singers night about 1987 and it was packed. no peter that will not do at all, it is a complete myth, total bollocks.

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Feb 14 - 04:59 PM

some people seem to have read this book even though its not been released.

I went to ntmc a few times - like fred, after roy had departed. it was usually friendly -but a bit lacking in atmosphere. the room was big -too big. abit mucky and uncomfortable.

the grey cock was another kettle of fish entirely. homebase for every intolerant traddy smartarse that no one could stand the sight of down at the old crown, and other more tolerant places.

I saw peggy and ewan at both places. so I owe them both for staging those two.

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Feb 14 - 08:51 PM

I belong to EFC, NFC, BFC, AVFC, the TMSA and LFFA. I occasionally go to AFC, SFC and another SFC. But don't have a clue about NTMC. Please don't assume....... ;-)

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Feb 14 - 09:51 PM

sorry Nottingham traditional music club. a rather conservative booking policy, but I saw some good stuff there. it had one or two really annoying residents, I remember my father once said, i'm notgoing there again if I've got to sit through that bugger with the whistle - he always forgets the tune half way through, and then starts again...

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Feb 14 - 09:59 PM

still I bet he was in the tradition.

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: Jim McLean
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 03:55 AM

Bi Al, I have an advanced copy.

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 04:54 AM

Also guilty of having read it, and enjoying it.

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 05:46 AM

Thanks Big Al.

The book sounds interesting anyway.

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 07:50 AM

ordered my copy today, the woman at waterstones said she was going to get a copy in anyway.

I wish the author well. we never really had a good chronicler of the times. most of the journalists had their agendas.

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: GUEST,Gavin Atkin
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 08:53 AM

There were both pretty sad looking clubs and great clubs around in the 80s and 90s, just as there are now, and I remember there were both kinds in the 70s also.

However, the number of clubs around now seems much reduced - at one time there was usually one for every town, even for every small town, but there seem to be many fewer now.

I'm looking forward to reading the Bean book, but if he makes the argument that the scene is now thriving again (an argument that would make sense from the point of view of selling the book), I may well find I don't entirely agree. We'll see.

Gavin

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 11:31 AM

I agree completely with that Gavin.

the traddy/contemporary divide was so destructive. at one time it seemed like every hamlet in England had a folk club with john Denver/spinners type residents. one of the saddest things was hearing Wizz Jones say forlornly from the stage at Sidmouth last year - towards the end of the '70's and into the 80's - there was no work for singers like me in England.

we won't recover from an era of treating our major artists so shoddily in five minutes.

when a songwriter like Gaz Brookfield is not really reaching the folk clubs - I think the situation has gotten away from us. he reminds me of a young Harvey Andrews. quite brilliant in his way.

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 12:14 PM

This book contains stories of the folk club scene from the horse's mouth. That is from the people who were there, and are there, from many, many well known and some lesser known performers from the 1950's onward including some of the "newer" arrivals.

Gavin, I would suggest you give it a read before you start to make assumptions. I must admit though that I was a little concerned when I saw that the foreword was by a Richard Hawley. Who he?

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 12:59 PM

this is who he is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Hawley

no I didn't know either - born 1967 - he missed the best bits!

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 06:01 PM

As you rightly observed "he missed the best bits", and if that wikipaedia (is that a reliable source?)entry is a summary of his musical activity I don't see why he was chosen unless it's to hopefully get sales from the pop pickers or whoever his fans are. Anyway it's only one page out of over four hundred and it doesn't matter. One thing I would say is that in that one page he sort of blames the folk club scene "arguably" as being responsible for "Punk" and I for one deny any responsibility for that crap.
The vast majority of the contributors were there, and if you were there you are almost certainly going to get an entertaining read.

Finally just in case you feel I am pushing this book, I have absolutely no connection with it apart from having been able to read it a little early.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 07:51 PM

monsieur hoot - I have no doubt, all your motives in life are pure as the driven snow......as are my own. we are brothers in purity...the priesthood missed out when it failed to recruit us two.

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 05:14 AM

Hootenanny said:
This book contains stories of the folk club scene from the horse's mouth.

Having flicked through it, I would say that is true - from the performers point of view. The voices that are missing are the audiences, and there aren't many club organisers in there either.

Richard Hawley wrote the one page foreword. The book is over 400 pages long. I bet the Wiki doesn't tell you that Richard is a neighbour of Martin Simpson and produced his latest CD... and a friend of the author.

Derek

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: GUEST,Topic 56
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 06:16 AM

As the book is adverised the contents are from the people interviewed over a number of years and there over 140 of these. You can only take at face value what you are told, but the people interviewed have a lot of credability. The story of only unaccompanied singers being allowed and being "interviewed" outside of the clubroom of the Nottingham Traditional Music Club was told to me in the seventies by Roy Harris himself. a few years ago I was talking to the surviving members of Knotts Alliance and asked about whay Roy had told me. They said it was not strictly correct but there was a havy influence of traditional unaccompanied singers. They also told me it could be an ordeal if it was the first time you were singing there as a floor singer. One story was that a singer had to sing with his back to the audience and when the song was finished and turned round there was nobody in the room, this apparently was considered a practical joke. I have only got part way into the book so far but from the things said by the people interviewed of their experiences it should be a very interesting read. There are some very interesting very old photographs of some of todays lumeneries there. Give the book a chance there has been nothing like it before and for that alone deserves to do well.

Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 06:33 AM

topic 56, they were notts alliance, not knotts alliance.
Subject: RE: Review: New book Singing from the floor
From: GUEST,Gavin Atkin - PM
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 08:53 AM

There were both pretty sad looking clubs and great clubs around in the 80s and 90s, just as there are now, and I remember there were both kinds in the 70s also.

However, the number of clubs around now seems much reduced - at one time there was usually one for every town, even for every small town, but there seem to be many fewer now.
absolutely spot on post Gvin, i can rember at least two towns having two clubs, i can remember getting booked every six months at clubs in the 70s, now its every 2 or 3 years with some,because they book fewer guests.
I bet one thing thats not mentioned in the book is the emergence of singers[in the 21st century] hiding behind piles of paper and music stands, who ocassionaly peer furtively at the audience, like frightened rabbits peering out of their burrows.

---

Threads combined. Messages below are from a new thread.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: 'Singing From The Floor' - book on folk
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Mar 14 - 01:38 PM

Anyone read "Singing From The Floor: A History Of British Folk Clubs" by J.P. Bean? There's a review of it in today's "Guardian" "Review" section.

I can't comment on the book 'cos I ain't read it, but the review is interesting. One bit struck a personal chord: the author mentions Toni Arthur turning up to a prison gig in a miniskirt. She appeared with the jug band I was in - The Egbert Sousé All Stars - and, very wisely, we put her on first... The roar that arose when she walked on the stage was something to hear. The year, if I remember, was 1974, and the venue was Maidstone.

Subject: RE: 'Singing From The Floor' - book on folk
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Mar 14 - 01:39 PM

Apparently available from Amazon, etc. on 6th March...

Subject: RE: 'Singing From The Floor' - book on folk
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 14 - 02:04 PM

There has recently been a thread on 'Singing from the Floor'.

Subject: RE: 'Singing From The Floor' - book on folk
From: Gavin Atkin
Date: 01 Mar 14 - 02:12 PM

I've just got my copy (I won Living Tradition's Facebook competition) and have dipped into it a bit. Bean knows how to extract an illuminating anecdote - that much is clear.

On the Toni Arthur thing... I can't figure out who was exploiting who!

Gavin

Subject: RE: 'Singing From The Floor' - book on folk
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 14 - 02:26 PM

thread.cfm?threadid=153720&messages=37

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 02:09 AM

my wife assures me I DO know Richard Hawley Apparently he is one of Patrick Walker's mates and he was always at the bar in Fagan's ,Sheffield.

its a bugger when you don't know who you know anymore.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Speedwell
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 10:43 AM

Great to see a new book on folk music appear. Living in a medium sized town of some 40,000 people I feel priviledged to have two folk clubs up and running.
Look forward to reading the book.
Also guardianbookshop.co.uk are currently offering it at £14.39 free p&p - cheapest I've seen.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 07:32 PM

Birthday coming up soon: if anyone should perchance remember, and then ask me what I want for a birthday present, this is it! Long plane journey too: it would surely be better than the in-flight movies!

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 05 Mar 14 - 04:00 AM

I finished reading it yesterday. The "quotes and nothing but" approach works pretty well in the main – I was a good 200 pages in before my interest began to flag a little. It's the sort of the book you're unlikely to be gripped by and devour in one sitting, but on the other hand the multiple perspectives make it a more authoritative text - maybe even a definitive one. And it means you don't have to read the chapters in the right order; it's a very enjoyable book just to dip into.

If, like me, you're under 40 and a folkie, like me, this is a book that will make you feel very jealous indeed: it really does chart a bygone golden age for folk in this country, a scene that even Americans (like Tom Paxton) were envious of.

Anecdote after anecdote tells of people starting folk clubs that had audiences of 50+ on their opening nights, of folk clubs in out-the-way locations packing audiences in on a Monday night on a weekly basis, of performers telling of being able to quickly make a national name for themselves within months of playing their first floorspot.

Hence the rather elegiac tone of the last couple of chapters

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Jim McLean
Date: 09 Mar 14 - 05:16 PM

Review in today's Observer.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Jim McLean
Date: 09 Mar 14 - 05:20 PM

Sorry! here it is.

Observer review

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: GUEST,Don T.
Date: 09 Mar 14 - 07:07 PM

Though it wasn't the one mentioned, I, and my friend Chris Baker ran a club in Maidstone (The Dog & Gun F.C.) from the beginning of 1976 till April 1983, when I had to quit for work related reasons.

We ran on Saturday nights with a regular audience of 40 people, and booked a guest on every club night

We booked good quality guests ( Eddie Walker, Derek Smith, Dick Miles, Nick Dow, Jake Thackray, Martin Carthy, John Foreman, Adrian May, from across the pond Clive Gregson, along with the finest local stars), and we had good quality residents, though we welcomed, encouraged and assisted beginners to find their feet.

Chris Baker, for whatever reason, finally closed the club, still drawing the same audiences at the end of 1983, but I think it might still have been going today, had there been someone to pick up the reins.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 14 - 08:02 AM

To go into Hoots comments a bit further, the suggestion that Punk benefited from the folk scene may be true when looked at from the far left, typified by Billy Bragg and the Pogues, but was never true of the mainstream. As Program Controller of University Radio Loughborough in the days of the Lowbrow Folk Festival, we were far more associated with the concept album end of things the record producers so hated, because they couldn't get a three-minute single from them to cash in on. Think Sally Oldfield as an influence in Mike's work. That's why they closed that end of the industry down, swapping to exploit hip-hop and punk to the exclusion of almost all else.
Having been away for nearly 20 years overseas, two things have happened: firstly, you need more youngsters, and secondly, the audiences have definitely dropped. Places like Walthamstow used to get up to 200 on a night, you can't even find a venue in North London capable of taking that number now. The Wedding Industry has its own halls, charging the earth. Take over a cinema? Gut a fleapit? To give the Harrison in Kings Cross its due, they might be able to, if a club were interested in forming there, to give it credibility.