Review: New book - Singing from the Floor

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 09:31 PM

"We also have Oh! What a Lovely War back in Stratford. Yet all you're interested in is nostalgia and recreating the folkclubs of yore. Yawn."
all I am interested in is people creating music, for their own enjoyment, without hype,
whoever you are you have made assumptions, I live in Ireland, and play in pubs, but Ido appreciate what folk clubs have to offer, which is..an oportuntiy for people to play in an environment where people listen, where people go specifically to LISTEN to music,not to treat it as background.
"You have an election coming up, why aren't you out there kicking? Or are you such lily-livered lummocks you're happy to go on as you are?"   
you feckin cheeky wanker, what do ytou know what i am doing or not doing, fuck off you pillock, as a matter of fact i have been out protesting, you fucking troll., piss off

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 01:46 AM

'I'd be surprised if anybody who saw Bert Jansch play in 1965 thought he was a right square'...
.,,.

Smarrerfack, I thought he was an absolute pain in the arse with the most intolerably affected delivery; just shows nobody can please everybody!

~M~

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 03:28 AM

"Apparently not Jim, it was PPM, who furnished that song for the Frost and Fire album. "
Do you have any proof for this Al - sound like one of those 'MacColl like urban legends to me?
I was never a great fan of the Watersons, but I have always respected the amount of work Carthy and the others put into researching their material.
All the songs that went on to their albums came from the BBC came from the material that the BBC 1950-55 recording project - I find it a little hard to believe that it had been regurgitated by anybody as anodyne as the same Tiresome Trio that astounded the world with 'Puff'.
Maybe I've overestimated them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 04:47 AM

You can be as abusive as you like, GSS, but I have provided the links showing what the leaders of the folk world have done, how they are thinking, and what they are actually doing in the UK at the moment. Those are facts you cannot deny, and I am doing it with them. I'm not much known in the folk world, nor have I any ambition to be, because it's populated by bilious ill-tempered grumpy old men like you, who have done something in the past but don't seem to be doing anything to progress the world of folk now. You're only as good as your last gig is an old truism in music, and just as there's differences in the folk world between the UK and the US, you hardly need me to tell you there are also regional differences within the UK writ large. This book is about mainland UK clubs, and the conversation went to where mainland UK is going. I've shown you the thinking the top people are actually doing and if you don't like it, do your own thing and validate it by your efforts. Where are you going yourself at the moment?

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 04:57 AM

Could this opinionated but unidentified GUEST let us know who he is, please? I think we should be told.

~M~

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 05:02 AM

the tiresome trio, as Carroll calls them, had hits [ in other words popularised the following songs to thousands] blowing in the wind. where have all the flowers gone, if i had a hammer, times they are a changing, all well written contemporary folk songs one of which was written by pete seeger.
we have to thank the likes of jim carroll,has collected songs from tradtional singers as did his chum Peter Kennedy, but neither of them have popularised folk song to the same extent as Peter Paul and Mary OR Pete Seeger,
Jim Carroll appears to be sneering at those who were succesful when it comes to introducing folk song to the masses,[i do not like his sneering at Peter,P,and M, it smacks of begrudgery],
volume wise, jim carroll as a collector pales in to insignificance compared to Cecil Sharp, or Tom Munnelly, or even for all his faults Peter Kennedy.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 05:10 AM

Yes, it's always difficult to respond to an anonymous GUEST - particularly one who thinks that "progress" is a transitive verb...

I hadn't realised that the folk world had leaders, and that the "top people" in it were doing things that one ought to follow. I live and learn.

As for the "you're only as good as your last gig" cliché, well, that's just what it is - a cliché.

Your original post, GUEST, posits a situation where folk has to move on, or to be seen to move on, to make some sort of progress if it has to survive - to be some sort of social force. What a far cry that view is from people just singing what they knew, or know; from people singing and playing and dancing for fun - at parties, at weddings, at social occasions in houses and pubs. Music for the hell of it - and who cares if it's not popular or mainstream or at the heart of cool culture. People will make music and they'll do just what they do.

I happen to play a lot of traditional tunes, jazz, ragtime, blues, music-hall, rock'n roll, southern funk. Why, I might even be a "top person" in my own village - a sort of legend in my own lunchtime.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 06:00 AM

Agreed Will, I find this unidentified 'GUEST' business a bit trying, especially from someone who finds him/herself mingling so much with all those "top people".

However, I think we can learn quite a lot about our anonymous GUEST from the fact that his/her idea of "getting out of the ivy-covered towers [aren't they usually 'ivory'?] and into the real world" involves Radio 3 and a roomful of classical composition students from Uxbridge.

As for the rest of the thread I rather agree with Matt Milton about the folk revival having been the 'fluke' result of a unique set of circumstances involving profound social changes and powerful movers and shakers.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 06:15 AM

Given the close involvement of Bert Lloyd in the Watersons' LP Frost and Fire, the inclusion of The Souling Song on the album is more likely to be derived from Lucy Broadwood's English County Songs than Peter Paul and Mary, although I suppose they might have heard the PPM version....
I suppose someone could ask Norma.
Derek

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 06:32 AM

For full attribution where due:- Above named classic collection of English County Songs was made in 1893 by J A Fuller Maitland and Lucy Broadwood in collaboration. I agree with Derek that it was at least as probable a source as the PPM version, tho both may well have had their influence.

~M~

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 07:08 AM

I was going to ask the question (but Will Fly beat me to it). Who are these top people in the Folk world? . A world in which I have been somewhat involved for more years than I care to remember.I think we should be told
In my world of folk music it's not the cliche referred to about last gigs, it's about how enjoyable was the evening you just spent singing and playing with a group of like minded people. Normally these days it is in a pub session or at a party and not a folk club although they do sometimes have their moments. Folk song and music has been around for ever and will continue in it's on small way. Folk clubs are comparitively recent.

Like MtheGM I also thought Bert Jansch was far from the legend that lives on. Being a good guitar picker is one thing but that doesn't make you cool or hip or whatever antiquated American phrase you wish to use.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 08:04 AM

Buy this book - it's a much better read than many of the 'contributions' on this thread.

If you are old enough to recognise the people quoted you will enjoy it more

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 08:34 AM

I rather think I named the leaders in my first post. Maybe Bellowhead are just in search of dosh, aren't we all, but it's not what I see from them and their peers as a wider pattern. The concept of The Imagined Village takes folk out of the clubs and into the wider world, not only of world music, but of music as a whole. There have been untold approaches from other forms as well of late, and you've dropped every ball which came your way, as far as I can see. It won't last forever, the music industry will soon come to the conclusion there's not a lot you can help them with. Sure I'm goading you, but you seem to need goading, or you'll miss the train. You have things to say, valid and interesting things, but they'll never be said if all you do is mumble in your beards. You've got to get out there and start saying them.

Of course the heart of folk is in the home, but only insofar as it's given scope in the home. How many of us have children who only know what Radio 1 and its ilk tells them is worth knowing, as if the X whoojit is all there is? This is exactly what the commercialisation of the music industry of the mid 1970s was intended to achieve, and it worked. It worked too well, in fact, it's a mine that's been worked out and they want fresh ideas. But hey, ho, none here, perhaps they'll find them from Bali or the Muslim world.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: ian1943
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 08:42 AM

I found 'Singing from the Floor' an excellent history but it contains a mondegreen on page 353 where the famed pub in Durham 'The Colpitt's' is called 'The Colditz'. It is where Durham City Folk Club spent 16 happy years until we were Sam Smithed. They were halcyon days and never a prison camp. Jon Boden was a regular and we taught him well!

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 09:15 AM

"you've dropped every ball which came your way"

Who is 'you' in this context, and does it apply only to people with beards?

GUEST, the people in this discussion might be prepared to take more seriously your ideas about future developments and links with other music if they weren't presented in such a precious, arrogant, condescending and disrespectful way. If attitudes like that are the future of this music, then god help us all.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 09:25 AM

"Sure I'm goading you"

Hmm, anonymous goading on an internet forum... Isn't there a word for that?

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 09:50 AM

In my opinion, what killed the folk clubs was punk coming along just at the time when the core folk club audience was getting bogged down with families and careers and had less time on their hands. The next generation for whom the folk clubs might have provided a natural outlet turned to punk instead.

I don't think the move to larger concert venues helps. It is probably a commercial necessity for the performers, but I don't want to sit in a large auditorium. Folk is intimate music, and I want to see the whites of their eyes. It also creates a barrier between the performer and audience, whereas in a folk club we are all together.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 10:05 AM

Did Peter, Paul and Hairy actually record wassail and Ritual songs - buggered if I can remember them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: GUEST,SteveT
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 10:07 AM

A few random thoughts.

1.       I enjoyed the book as a bit of reminiscence therapy although I think the field is too wide to have been truly captured in just one volume. As has been said, with the title "Singing from the floor" it seems odd that the emphasis was not on the floor singers but those who made a living singing from the "stage". The book might be a valuable contribution as a starting point but by no means the whole story. (It would be interesting to find out why people really stopped supporting the clubs. (Families, jobs, other hobbies?) I don't think the best answer can be found by asking the "stars" of the era or by asking here on Mudcat where those with a (nostalgic?) interest still lurk. Those who need to be asked are those who we can't ask because they're no longer part of the scene.)

2.       Personally I don't really care though whether folk music is popular or not. What matters to me is whether it's good and whether I enjoy listening/taking part – both subjective judgments. I sing, not because I want to be an entertainer or performer (I'm hopeless at both) but because I want to sing the songs as best I can; to keep them alive. Of course I hope that my "audiences", who are generally all singers who I respect, will appreciate my attempts but my first duty is to the song. (I'd much rather be good (one can but dream!) than be popular.)

3.       I do remember the days of big audiences in the late 60s and early 70s but I'm not sure that there were that many more singers/musicians then than now.   (True, there were more who could support themselves by performing because of the large audiences but many of them were fairly mediocre – a bit like the way these days everyone seems to have a CD: it's not a measure of quality, just of feasibility.) Our university folk club used to have weekly audiences of 200+ but those people weren't at the nightly pub sessions; there we had around 20-30, all actively singing/playing. Coincidentally, last night's singaround that I went to had only 22, but only 3 didn't sing (except in the choruses) – all the rest led at least one song. Tonight's "Irish" session will probably have about a dozen musicians and the rest of the people in the pub would be there anyway, they're certainly not there as an audience. So the "audience" has gone but perhaps not the performers. Is this linked to why it's easier to find singarounds and sessions now (full of participants but few "audience" members) than it is to find clubs which cater more for an audience?

4.       Most of the folk clubs I went to were in pubs. That was in the days when pubs had several smaller rooms and were looking for ways to fill them. These days it seems difficult to find a pub that isn't open plan with dining facilities and/or big screen TV sport. So where could clubs be these days? The open nature of a pub meant anyone could drop in; alternative, non-pub venues take a much greater commitment to visit. Prior to pub venues perhaps there were family gatherings, local fairs etc where people could gather and sing/play. Where are the open, informal venues now?   

My provisional conclusions (don't take these too seriously, the elements of truth are well hidden!!!).

a.        Folk clubs were a passing, fashionable trend dependent upon venue availability, the growing "youth rebellion" and, as with any fashion, pure chance. The music in them was home made (in a performance sense) by the members. There wasn't a huge mix of ages or even social groups in those clubs, the audiences were fairly homogenous just as they are now. After a relatively short time a new popular music emerged based on this music which was performed by someone who you were supposed to "follow" – this music was not home made although many still classed it as "folk".   It didn't easily fit into the small-venue folk clubs that started the movement because it relied on audience rather than participants and, leaving its roots, it quickly evolved away from the folk club music to become various types of "pop" music.   The audiences moved on although the singers stayed, or returned after family/work took them away for a while, to form singarounds

b.        There's little point trying to recreate what was a passing fad. Some of those who lived through the fashion have clung to it with varying degrees of success. The "traditional" crowd have migrated to singarounds/sessions, now mainly populated by aging ex-folk club members who grumble about how singer-songwriters killed the clubs, reminisce about the good old days before singer-songwriters and wonder where the youngsters are. (How many old folk went to their clubs when they were youngsters?) The aging "contemporary" crowd grumble about how the traditionalists don't like them and how they could have been famous if only they weren't discriminated against, occasionally visiting singarounds, where both they and the "traditionalists" feel uncomfortable at their presence, or going to open mic venues where they try to recreate the days when audiences would actually listen and stay for the evening rather than arrive to sing their own songs and then leave again (not realising that no-one really listened to them in the good old days either, they were just there for rest of the songs!!)

c.        BUT – we're still singing and the songs are still here. In addition, there are younger performers who are making their own music in their own way and at their own venues. Why should they want to or need to recreate folk clubs when they have their own cultural settings? It's not as though the clubs themselves were part of an ancient tradition, just some of the songs that passed through them. Thanks to recording facilities these young musicians will be able to pick out what is relevant to them from the material we leave behind just as the early revivalists picked out what was relevant to them from the material of the early collectors.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 10:29 AM

Good post, Steve, and lots of truth in it. In passing:

It would be interesting to find out why people really stopped supporting the clubs. (Families, jobs, other hobbies?) I don't think the best answer can be found by asking the "stars" of the era or by asking here on Mudcat where those with a (nostalgic?) interest still lurk. Those who need to be asked are those who we can't ask because they're no longer part of the scene.)

Well, here's an answer from one 'Catter who dropped in and out of the folk scene from time to time: In 1970 I bought a DeArmond pickup for my Epiphone Texan, got hold of a home-made amp and started to play jug band music and jazz in a Bayswater pub. The lure of improvisation, playing in a band, mixing with the likes of Diz Disley and Laurie Denise - and getting paid for playing (£2 each and a free pint) was too much to resist!

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 10:36 AM

Jim
they recorded "A-soalin", which perhaps indicates that their grasp on the genre was probably a bit limited!
Have a look at this ... amusing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnbD3QLU5o4
Derek

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 10:51 AM

Actually, I hadn't heard them sing it before. I thought their performance, given with full acknowledgment to the N English source, rather charming; & of course enhanced by the appropriateness of the "One for Peter, two for Paul" [Wot! None for poor Mary?]. Where did they learn it? When did they first record it? Before of after the Watersons? Might they have got it from Broadwood & Fuller Maitland? Or even from Frost&Fire?

~M~

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 11:02 AM

And why knock PPM, I wonder? They were much in the tradition of, e.g., Richard Dyer-Bennett as popularisers of the traditional; & I recall when he was much respected. They didn't wreck their versions with over-production, like some. Their somewhat prettified presentation was not to all tastes ~~ not particularly to mine, for instance. But I do not regard them as contemptible. They knew about the songs they sang. The late, highly revered, Sandy Paton sang with the force of his fine voice in a not dissimilar way. He was as scholarly a folksinger as ever I have met, but never tried to disguise the classic quality of his voice for any factitious 'folky' effect. And was not above compromising with commercial necessities either ~~ I recall his telling me, when I knew him over here 56 years ago, that he had regretfully had to learn that somewhat tiresome "Oh Dr Freud" song so voguish at the time, in order to maintain his cred in the venues where he then performed at home.

~M~

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 01:12 PM

the one I never really got a handle on was John Jacob Niles. the films of him singing sound really bizarre to my ears.

but apparently he did big business.

I admit I can't remember where I heard the story about PP and M. would anyone bother to make up an urban myth of so little interest. the period we're referring to is long before Martin joined the group though.
I take you word for it Jim -they got it from somewhere else. I mean , really who care...!
I remember when the Spinners (another lot against the wall after your revolution) split up - I was saying to Martin Carthy that I'd seen them do a nice version of The Bleacher lass of Kelvinhaugh on Pebble Mill at One, and I would miss them.
He said, well I won't - I do that song....!
I said, yeh but they don't ask you to do Pebble Mill at One.
Perhaps they would nowadays - what with the MBE and everything.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 01:54 PM

Trouble with Niles is that he couldn't leave anything alone. He didn't just sing things his own way: he rewrote them first; invariably in an inferior version: and for some reason it would be his version which would catch on as the 'standard' version. Just compare his vile "Blackblackblackblackblackblack [cont p 94] is the color" with the delightful version that Sharp collected and published in his Appalachian collection from which he ripped it off. But as you say, Al, he did big biznis. One suspects some sort of jiggery-pokery somewhere...

~M~

i luv the ground i luv the ground i luv the ground i luv the grouhouhouhouhound...

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 02:14 PM

"Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 08:34 AM

I rather think I named the leaders in my first post. Maybe Bellowhead are just in search of dosh, aren't we all, but it's not what I see from them and their peers as a wider pattern. The concept of The Imagined Village takes folk out of the clubs and into the wider world, not only of world music, but of music as a whole. There have been untold approaches from other forms as well of late, and you've dropped every ball which came your way, as far as I can see. It won't last forever, the music industry will soon come to the conclusion there's not a lot you can help them with. Sure I'm goading you, but you seem to need goading, or you'll miss the train. You have things to say, valid and interesting things, but they'll never be said if all you do is mumble in your beards. You've got to get out there and start saying them.

Of course the heart of folk is in the home, but only insofar as it's given scope in the home. How many of us have children who only know what Radio 1 and its ilk tells them is worth knowing, as if the X whoojit is all there is? This is exactly what the commercialisation of the music industry of the mid 1970s was intended to achieve, and it worked. It worked too well, in fact, it's a mine that's been worked out and they want fresh ideas. But hey, ho, none here, perhaps they'll find them from Bali or the Muslim world."
to paraphrase Martin Carthy, who is this berk?

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 02:29 PM

who is this burka?

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 04:28 PM

Googling reveals that PPM recorded it (1963) before Frost and Fire came out (1965).

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 06:01 PM

Thank you, Derek. So it would appear that the debt, if there was one, was v.v. In probability, tho, both groups would have learned it from the book, or from some print source, and would surely have been singing it before recording. In that case, however, the misspelling of 'soul' does seem curious; but then that might just be down to a Youtube poster who misunderstood the meaning of the cake's name.

~M~

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 08:07 PM

There seem to be a lot of GUEST posts on this thread, some of which are identified by a name after the word GUEST, but a good few are not. There may be several GUESTS out there, not just one! It would be good if those who have not yet got a Mudcat handle, or who have suffered a loss of cookies, would sign their posts, so that there is some degree of clarity and continuity.
I'll take LiC's advice and order the book.
Trish S

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:09 AM

you say a soalin', and I say a soulin'
you say paste egging, and I say pace egging

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 03:30 AM

There was another book published some time ago on the same subject by someone named Mike Brocken.
I read the pre-publication version put up on the Musical Traditions site and found it poorly researched - much of it coming from interviews carried out in bars after club sessions - I found it difficult to read because of the sound of axe-grinding it generated.
Came to the conclusion that 'someone should do this properly sometime'.
I wonder if anybody came across it and has an opinion on it.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 06:25 AM

Mike Brocken is/was a senior lecturer in creative and performing arts at Liverpool Hope University. The book, The British Folk revival, 1944-2002, came out in 2003, published by Ashgate (usually very expensive books, but this is/was available in paperback.) May still be available. It was based on his PhD thesis. he is a Liverpudlian, went to West derby Comp in the 60s (according to book intro).
As part of the book research, he attempted a full discography of Topic records, which Rod Stradling completed on Musical Traditions website, though Brocken stuck to his incomplete listing.
I may be wrong, but I don't think the book created any waves...
Derek

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 06:39 AM

Thanks Derek - the bits I read didn't impress me.
"I may be wrong, but I don't think the book created any waves... "
Not entirely true - some of the self-serving vindictiveness contained in some of the closing-time interviews created waves of nausea in my nether regions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: doc.tom
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 07:38 AM

Part of the problem is that each individual's experience of 'The Folk Revival' was different - and we then each argue from our own experience.

Where I came from there was no Political imperative to the revival (it existed in some performers, but it did not drive the movement); the extant tradition absorbed and encouraged the revival ('not bad, boy, but down here we used to sing it like this...'); there was no trad/comtemporary split, instead there were (traditional singers [and I don't mean singers who came to the revival and then sang traditional songs] who happliy sang contemporary songs).

I think the book - which is what this thread was about - is a perfectly valid comentary from the experience of those it quotes. And all it is is quotes. We still have the gaps.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 08:05 AM

which book is thst dr.tom - the brocken or the bean?

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 09:33 AM

Just finished the Bean book - it was OK. Patchy both geographically and anecdotally. I recognised and remembered some of the things narrated but, as others have said, there are a lot of other unspoken narratives - particularly from unsung club organisers and just ordinary, run-of-the-mill floor singers.

There may be more research to be done but, personally, I don't care if it's carried out or not. Let's just get on with making the music.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:12 AM

absolutely will -going to see renbourn/wizz , and my own gig the next nite. last nite I was floorspotting at swanage folk club, and the before then paddy's night and the night after, doing gigs.

I feel like its folk music. I play for folks. its not cecil sharp stuff - but I've seen films of cecil, prancing about doing folk dances. I don't think we'd have hit it off.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 05:56 PM

I agree wholeheartedly with the GUEST,SteveT 19 Mar 14 - 10:07 AM post.

Something touched on there is the crucial difference between getting together to sing and listen and performing for an audience. It is the difference between, on the one hand, the clubs as they were, some as they still are, and "singarounds", and on the other hand concerts, festivals and recordings. A hundred-odd years ago there was surely a similar split between home-grown entertainment in homes, pubs and bothies and commercial entertainment in music halls.

Yes of course there is some interchange between those worlds, but there is an essential difference between commercial and DIY;
perhaps a more important difference even than the trad v. contemporary one.

The commercial music "industry" (well named) moves on, churning out thousands of recordings in umpteen supposedly distinct genres which to me all sound equally dire, with percussion dominant and the time signature always 4/4.

Meanwhile some of us get on with singing and playing the stuff that we happen to like, in small gatherings or at home on our own. For some it may be exclusively "traditional". Most of us are happy to include modern songs that are more or less in the same mould (or perhaps I should say in one of the same moulds, there being big differences of character within the tradition). Other people play jazz, sing in choirs or whatever. Good luck to one and all.

Even at the height of the revival, folk music and song was a minority interest. Nowadays it's a smaller minority, with an aging demographic, but there ARE younger people involved, and they're not all going overboard with weird and wonderful cross-cultural stuff.

Time to stop rambling!

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 06:25 PM

Sing and enjoy it.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: doc.tom
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 02:14 AM

The Bean

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:45 AM

Guest sez: "What actually killed it (folk music) was a decision in 1975 within the music industry to kill anything which wasn't hip-hop or punk, for purely commercial reasons."

What an odd comment. Although the early punk bands were in existence by '75 (especially in New York), you didn't really get the first punk record releases till late '76. Hip hop came even later. From what I recall, listening to Radio One and commercial radio at the time, checking out the charts weekly and watching Top of the Pops, punk was a small minority of what was played. It was mainly the same mainstream pop that had been featured pre-punk: Boney M, Abba and so on. Oh and the odd folky monstrosity like "Day Trip to Bangor"... Culturally, punk had the excellent sense to point out that overblown prog-rock epics were a bit on the wanky side, but I'm sure Yes and Pink Floyd weren't exactly quaking in their boots!

Guest also talks about "the commercialisation of the music industry of the mid 1970s." Again, this is very weird. Is the suggestion that prior to 1975, the music industry was a bastion of DIY, anti-commercial bohemianism? If anything, it was punk (or at least its immediate aftermath) that enabled that to happen - wrestling the means of production out of the hands of big business, resulting in a plethora of DIY records, gigs, labels etc... and with it, the artists taking control of their music. Sure, folk had already been doing that for years, but that was the exception not the rule: the industry norm was all about the big business model, as it still is.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:41 AM

I suspect the drop in attendance and the drop in the number of clubs was related to:

1. The difficulty residents and floor singers had in finding and learning new songs & tunes
2. The Folk Clubbers having families and staying at home

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:04 AM

Most of the people mentioned here as featuring in the book are still performing after a career lasting decades. As well as inbalances of geography and professional/amateur status in the selection, is it also unbalanced in that it selected people who stuck with it?

If you're going to talk about decline, it would make sense to interview people who contributed to the decline by moving into a different career or resorting to a different kind of entertainment.

Just spotted this upthread:

Ewan MacColl [...] influenced people to look to their uk roots, in some ways that was good,but it was never going to be of interest commercially.

Sure about that? The Beatles developed a repertoire of pop music built on the British music-hall idiom (and perhaps to a lesser extent the songs of Noel Coward) - they were every bit as much an indigenous product as MacColl with the Radio Ballads. And it wasn't a liability for them.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 11:24 AM

And I see a Mudcatter is selling a copy of the Brocken book, if anyone wants to see if it's bad as other Mudcatters say:

Spleen Cringe's EBay link

The going rate seems to be between 15 and 20 pounds.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:00 AM

one thing, I thought was missing in those early days of the folk revival, people didn't get around as much. there weren't the motorways and cars weren't as reliable.

so if you saw Johnny Handle, or Jacquie and Bridie or The Yetties - they were possibly from apart of the country you had never visited. same with Derek Brimstone - cockney with a real edge - so different from the cor blimey governor stuff we had seen on the movies.

I bought the Yetties first song book at the time - and at the start, there is wonderful thankyou to all the folk club for making it possible to see places they would never otherwise and seen places like Hull....

I still think it was abetter introduction to our country than Homes under the Hammer.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:53 AM

I recall thinking that The Watersons weird harmonies sounded as though they came from some strange encampment at the edge of the world. Quite magical.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:57 PM

They did

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 04:25 PM

"Sure about that? The Beatles developed a repertoire of pop music built on the British music-hall idiom (and perhaps to a lesser extent the songs of Noel Coward) - they were every bit as much an indigenous product as MacColl with the Radio Ballads. And it wasn't a liability for them."

Feel obliged to point out that the Beatles music-hall-type stuff only entered their repertoire after they'd become massively successful in the UK and US doing covers of US R&B songs like 'Twist & Shout'. Not to mention their own amazingly convincing own take on US R&B, like 'I Saw Her Standing There' or 'Baby You Can Drive My Car'. They'd recorded a good 6 or 7 albums before things like 'Being For the Benefit of Mr Kite', by which time frankly they could have just farted on record and would still have sold millions. The music-hallish stuff was only ever the occasional album track, anyway.

Subject: RE: Review: New book - Singing from the Floor
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 06:33 PM

yellow submarine was a single that went to number one.