BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?

Subject: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 02:56 AM

The Wikipedia entry on Professor Stephen Hawking contains the following bald statement:-

In 1959 - "[Hawking's father] wanted Hawking to attend University College, Oxford, his own alma mater. As it was not possible to read mathematics there at the time, Hawking decided to study physics and chemistry."

This struck me as most odd. Can anyone explain why it was not possible to read maths at University College, Oxford, in 1959?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 03:09 AM

Plenty of other Oxford colleges offered it.

Anyway, at the Oxbridge level, Cambridge colleges have always had the edge on the sciences whilst Oxford, the dreaming spires.

No. I can't answer your question but I am disturbed by a plan to stop engineering at the place I received my PhD. Universities have always gone through phases I suppose?

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 05:46 AM

I have an engineering degree as well as a law degree, and I have often vaguely wondered about whether engineering is appropriate as a university subject. It is essentially about regurgitation of the factual work of others, to practical ends, not a subject for creative thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 05:48 AM

No Bridge, just not a subject for people who can't think creatively...

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 07:40 AM

Is it actually true that people go to University, read stories, write about them stories, then get a degree? I find that hard to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 08:38 AM

Wiki tells us about Univ:

It was due to the college's lack of a mathematics fellow (this is no longer the case) that Professor Stephen Hawking read a natural sciences degree and ended up specialising in physics.^[12] A perhaps more unusual alumnus is Prince Felix Yusupov, the assassin of Rasputin.^[13]

Whoever tries to judge Oxbridge by standards coming from the rest of the world, is liable to despair. Perhaps Freemasonry comes closest.

Engineering science is a field of applied physics, certainly more scientific than medicine. By tradition, some professional skills for non-researchers must be taught by researchers. This is certainly arguable, but often leads to confusion - and to bad results due to didactic inadequacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 11:34 AM

Just as well I have more than one degree then, eh Mither?

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 11:54 AM

Dunno Bridge. I never went to university. Still got a PhD from one though. Oh, and a honorary visiting Prof title in return for a bit of slave labour at our medical school.

Piece of piss. A real qualification from the mining faculty at a poly with a five year apprenticeship. Now you're talking..

Too busy developing my shares portfolio and learning how to make something of being a dirty rotten stinking capitalist to bother with airy fairy university....

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 12:49 PM

not a subject for creative thinking.
sweeping generalisations being the stuff of lawyers? Anyway they are only supposed to ask questions, not lead the witness!

After 7 patents, 120 songs and even more poems, I submit engineers can be creative, or my life don't exist. Otherwise your mobile phone would come with a few miles of chord and you would have to plug it in to the nearest telephone box (assuming that was not an innovation once).

when I was an apprentice, I couldn't spell engineer. Now I are one! Chartered no less!

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 12:58 PM

A degree in engineering didn't harm the creative impulses of Carlos Slim, whose fortune is some $72 billion.
Sergey Brin got degrees in mathematics and computer science - $30 billion.
Bill Gates, dropout at Harvard (but already advanced in computer science), $77 billion.

Brains plus drive to succeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 01:47 PM

Ignoring all these egocentric selfregarding thread-drifters who seem to think we will all be agog for details of their own boring academic non-careers which have no relevance to my OP question whotsomevva ~~~~

And who said "Oxbridge"? Go and stand in the corner with your ☞☜ on your ☹, Mister Grishka. There is No Such Place: for consider ~~~

~~~At Cambridge it would be perfectly possible to read for any faculty even if one's own college didn't have a specialist fellow ~~ one's tutor would simply find a supervisor from another college. Are they really so backward & helpless at Oxford that they couldn't organise a perfectly simple piece of admin like that? Blimey! Still, not so surprising, I suppose. I mean, you know, Oxford! Which HM Queen herself hates, becoz it's the Home of all those Lost Corgis...

☠☠☠〠〠〠☠☠☠

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:13 PM

The phrase "read for" is not used in the US. Does the phrase suggest that there is NO math taught at Oxford, or merely that one cannot obtain a degree in such things?

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:28 PM

Michael: why do you care? What they did at Camford back in the thirties/forties/fifties was the way the world was then, and it was just not done to question it. Good Lord, only people with red ties did that. Since the ancient universities have never been about what you study, just about how you do it and who you do it with, it would have been perverse for a putative student to question what was on offer at any particular (or peculiar) college.

Of course it's all changed now, hasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 05:07 PM

We don't do math at any British university.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 05:19 PM

The previous message of 06 Apr 14 - 04:28 PM is not from me, but it nails it nicely. Since I am almost as foreign as Bill D, I cannot give a detailed assessment of any particular Other Place.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 05:22 PM

We don't do math at any British university.

Of course we do. It's just that we never do it just once.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 05:24 PM

Bill D ~~ Do not be confused by the name University College: that is just the name of one of the 30+ constituent colleges which, federated, form the University of Oxford. Of course Maths could be read at the university. I was just surprised that one of the colleges would not admit students for a subject which none of its fellows [ie senior faculty] specialised in, as, at Cambridge, the other ancient collegiate universtiy where I happened to study myself 60+ years ago, such a student would just be 'tutored' or 'supervised' [ie taught individually] by a senior member from another college.

Unnamed GUEST 2 posts back: If you choose to address me uninvited by my first name, at least let us know your own identity. One would like to know whose shoulder appears to carry so heavy a chip.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 05:44 PM

They invited the abacus since you were there Michael...

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 05:54 PM

I take it you mean 'invented', Musket. I entirely fail to see the point of the comment. But please don't trouble to explain; I am sure it isn't very interesting.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 06:14 PM

No, I think 'Invited the abacus' is a suitably academic concept:-)

But back to the thread. Maybe Oxford never felt the need to offer a Maths degree? My eldest lad studied Maths and Philosophy at Keele, suitable bizarre in itself, but I learned from that that Maths is not the exact science I was led to believe at school.

Your question is purely academic in itself Michael. Who really gives a toss what is taught at Oxford, apart from other academics?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 08:04 PM

two countries separated by a common language.... LOL too true

in the US, schools offer mathematics, referred to as math for short. arithmatic stays the same - no simple shorthand for it.

if you want a degree in a specialty, you declare your major and then take the required courses to obtain your BA or BS, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 09:14 PM

It doesn't seem that the lack of a math tutor has hurt the young Mr. Hawking much.

I'm am very happy for all of you if this is the worst thing y'all have to moan about.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 10:15 PM

Thank you sciencegeek.... it always amuses me when someone won't answer the basic question if I don't spell it or phrase it using their particular dialect.

Thank you also, MtheGM for giving me the 'almost' clear answer. I did some searches and found this page, which 'seems' to say that 'reading for' basically indicates studying and 'taking a prescribed number of classes'. I did not pursue the issue long enough to determine whether that needs more explication.

I'd ask here, but probably would not express my question in a manner that would elicit an answer suitable for a coarse, semi-literate colonial. I shall endeavor to console myself with a short dip into Chaucer.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 01:09 AM

In fucking vented.

iPad for sale.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 08:16 AM

Yes, Bill: 'read' is the idiomatic synonym in UK universities for 'study' a specific subject. I myself 'read' [ie studied for a degree in] English at Cambridge, 1952-55. The Cambridge degree is awarded by the University as a whole, but each person studying ('reading') does so as a member of, and under the auspices of, one of the University's constituent colleges (Christ's College, founded 1505, in my case, in common with predecessors such as Milton & Darwin, & successors such as Sacha Baron Cohen). Teaching is provided both by the university in the form of public lectures arranged by the faculty, and at college level by individual supervision by one's Director of Studies or a supervisor appointed by him.

I should have thought a similar system would have existed in the 1960s at Oxford, whereby his college, if it did not have a tutor responsible for Maths, could have arranged for the young Mr Hawking to go elsewhere for individual tutorials or supervisions by someone else within the university. There are always hundreds of research students crying out for the income which can be gained by undertaking such a task.

Again, as some still don't seem to be getting the point [eg Dave the Gnome at 0614]:- the "Univ, Oxford" referred to in the thread title does not mean "Oxford University", but "University College, Oxford", the name of one of the constituent colleges which, taken together, constitute that august body.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Bert
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 11:51 AM

DtG, mathematics is not a science at all.
The short word for arithmetic is SUMS.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 12:19 PM

I probably don't get it because I still cannot see why it matters. Sorry, M. That is just the way of things in Gnomeland.

Bert - Yes, you are right on both counts. However, a degree in Maths is a BSC or MSC IE - Bachelor or Master of Science. Back to my original point. Still doesn't matter. I ain't got one. Good luck to those who do :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 12:33 PM

Thanks very much MtheGm... that is an excellent explanation. There are various forms of 'special studies' in American colleges, but usually not the carefully crafted sort you refer to.... although many smaller, private schools do have programs designed around some students' interest- usually in liberal arts.
I do wish my own school(s) had done something similar. I might have gone further instead of of just being one 'product' of an academic assembly line.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 12:46 PM

DtG: Always exercised at the inexplicable perversity of those who post for the express purpose of telling us how uninteresting the topic in hand is to their oh-so-important selves. These threads are full of things that do not matter to me; and sometimes I cannot see why they matter to anybody. But I see no point in saying so, as I can't see why such a view of them on my part should matter to their posters or his target audience. So why bother to tell us of your uninterest? It doesn't matter to anyone in MtheGMland. Or on Mudcat either, presumably, in this particular. Why should it?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 12:51 PM

Thank you, Bill, for your appreciative comment. Happy to have been of service.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 01:32 PM

I take it that sums is the shorthand for arithmatic on your side of the pond.

I may have encountered it in some older books... just as I have found receipt used in place of recipe.

here in the USA we have reading, writing & 'rithmatic... LOL

or did until they came up with New Math... WTF???

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 01:39 PM

"... the name of one of the constituent colleges which, taken together, constitute that august body."

Well, there's yer problem. If the school is only operating one month a year, it's a surprize they're teaching anything at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Musket
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 02:21 PM

On that transatlantic subject...

There is a story, possibly grown in the making that an American tourist was touring The Bodleian Library at Oxford, and impressed by the architecture, asked the porter if it was pre war.

It is pre America, came the reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 02:36 PM

Same could be said of Harvard my dear man. Here, have a hanky. Be a peach and try to wipe off some of that hubris you are dribbling down your chin.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Musket
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 02:46 PM

Didn't realise Harvard was built by native Americans. The tuppenny rush at the pictures on a Saturday morning as a child taught me they just built wigwams, put their ear to the ground and called the hero Kemo Sabay....

We don't grow peaches either. We buy them at Waitrose.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 02:58 PM

I think you will find, Michael, that my first post on this topic was not one of disinterest but one which picked up on a very interesting, to me, slip of the keyboard which resulted in the rather humourous phrase 'Invited the abacus'. In fact, far from saying that it was uninteresting, my follow on to that was "Your question is purely academic in itself Michael. Who really gives a toss what is taught at Oxford, apart from other academics?" A question, showing interest in why you find it important.

My second post was an admission that I will probably not get it and your explanation is still obscure to me. I cannot help it I'm afraid. Those of us without the benefit of a degree in English can find your terminology difficult at times. There is no need sneer at those less fortunate than yourself. Why you should to take offence and accuse me of self-importance is also something that goes over my head. Then again, as a Gnome, most things do. Feel free to explain why it is important. Or not. But please don't sneer.

Thanks

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 03:01 PM

Oh, some grow peaches. Snigger.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 03:07 PM

America was always here, for tens of millions of years at least, long before your little trade school on the Thames, my olde tubesock. It just hadn't been named yet.   

Both schools predate the country to which your joke undeniably refers.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 03:14 PM

Can't believe I misspelled surprise. Death, where is thy sting?

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 03:30 PM

Whyfor thine shame? Anonymity be thine protective cloak. Iffith thy were to simply blame a former member, perchance a Hammond or a Murdoch, none would be the wiser.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 03:43 PM

Breaking News.

Now is not the day to besmirch Peaches.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: GUEST,Chancellor Musket
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 04:16 PM

Harvard predates the country it happens to be in?

Leave a bucket of yoghurt to its own devices for 340 years and it develops a culture.

I like this. When I've finished with USA I can start on Canada and don't have to change target.

Plenty of old chestnuts where that came from me old footballer.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 04:23 PM

Thank you, JtS.
I watched the teatime news, so knew what to expect before clicking on your link.

So young, so sudden.

R.I.P.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 05:11 PM

Greatly grieved at latest tragedy to strike the admirable Mr Geldof.

DtG -- Really do regret you should have found my tone sneering; something I try hard never to do. Shall obviously have to try even harder. Sorry indeed.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 05:12 PM

Yeah, tragic.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 05:15 PM

Yes it predates the country it happened to be in. Learn some history that doesn't have to do with your blue blooded monarchs inbreeding and infighting. The rest of the world doesn't care anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 07:32 PM

The Savilian Chair of Geometry was founded alongside the Savilian Chair of Astronomy in 1619. One assumes from those subjects that the chairs of Arithmetic and Music already existed, as this is so far back Scientific Method hadn't even been sorted out yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Apr 14 - 01:53 AM

Check your passport. Your blue blooded monarch too, last time she looked.

Aside. Peaches Geldof. So young, the world at her feet and a young family. Awful for them. Truly tragic.

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Apr 14 - 07:37 AM

Yes, very sad indeed.

Apology accepted Michael and I apologise if I gave the impression of being dismissive of a subject obviously close to you.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Why no Maths at Univ, Oxford?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 08 Apr 14 - 08:57 AM

If it's bragging rights you want... best concede to the Continent.

The University in Prague was founded by a charter issued on 7 April 1348 by Charles IV, King of Bohemia and King of the Romans, as the first Studium generale north of the Alps and east of Paris.