BS: Bundy ranch stand off

Subject: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST,Ruby Ridge
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 12:21 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/10/us/nevada-rancher-rangers-cattle-showdown/

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 05:04 AM

can't get the link maker to work.


however this is about a 67 year old man who wants to take his cows where the law says he can't he has a lot of public support....

all very well....but the law is the law. wait til he wants to take his cows down your street.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: gnu
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 05:16 AM

The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) told him and many others to stop allowing their cattle to graze on public land as has been done for scores of years. They also want past grazing fees of a huge sum or to confiscate his ranch. They also have leased these lands to gas fracking companies and they don't want the cattle or people to get sick and die from the fracking ops because it's negative publicity. Far better to shoot them with machine guns and sniper rifles from helicopters. Efficiency is secondary only to safety.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 08:46 AM

ah! that's different....evil capitalists against the sons of the soil.
republicans against the democrats, conservative against labour... generallt i'm on the side of the goodies in white hats.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: gnu
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 10:19 AM

I hear the State Militia is on the ranch in full combat mode. Not good to tell Big Oil yer gonna start a range war. That's the kinda party they like to dress up for.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 10:29 AM

Ranchers aren't supposed to graze livestock on public land without paying a fee to do so. The feds have tried to reduce the amount of livestock because they have been allowed to badly overgraze the land. A lot of federal parks that used to allow grazing have long since kicked out the cows and will even shoot them and leave them in the backcountry of the owners don't come get them after being notified of their straying onto public lands.

There was a ranching family that was grandfathered in with grazing rights in one park I worked in, and it took years for the park to finally get rid of them (when the family members got old they tried to sublet their grazing rights and that's when their asses (or at least cattle) were kicked off the land).

Mr. Bundy is a leech who has grown fat by stealing the grass on federal land. He's the kind of old fart who will cry for his right to do so and there are scofflaws who will support him. But he doesn't have a legal leg to stand on.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 11:05 AM

he doesn't have a legal leg to stand on.

Neither does the gang of thieves who stole that land off the Indians in the first place and then set up a thieves' code of "laws" to make it retrospectively right.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 11:51 AM

Mr. Bundy is the thief in this case.

jack Campin is well known for posting something that has nothing to do with the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 12:06 PM

When the Earth goes back to its Ur status I'm sure that will be dealt with, Jack. In the meantime, it isn't what was being discussed. Sometimes you just have to address the ills that are still addressable.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: gnu
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 12:59 PM

According to an article I read a couple of days ago, the feds did cite an endangered turtle as the main reason for kicking out the cattle. Of course, if he is an old leech, take his cattle and his ranch and put him in the poorhouse.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: gnu
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 01:27 PM

Gee, there are lots of articles on it. Here's one.

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/04/militarized-siege-of-bundy-ranch-is-all-about-oil-fracking-deals-2935768.html

Another states the BLM wants payment for twenty years of illegal grazing. They knew about it for 20 years and they let the turtles die until now? The heartless bastards!

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 01:29 PM

His family has been grazing on the public state land since 1877. The federal Bureau of Land Management now says he cannot do that even though no laws have changed and it is a state issue, not a federal one. All moot now, as the federal government is retreating.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/nevada-cattle-rancher-wins-range-war-federal-government/story?id=23302610

Senator Harry Reid's son wants the land so he can go into business with the Chinese.

http://www.westernjournalism.com/shocking-allegations-link-harry-reid-nevada-ranch-standoff/

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 04:42 PM

The Department of the Interior manages about 1/3 of all the land in the United States, but it is part of the federal government which is not allowed to own more than one parcel that is 10 miles square (or 100 square miles) in a region. The City of Washington DC was this size for this reason (now down to 68 square miles). Only reason to take a parcel would be to build a fort in the Wild West days or other such needed facility.

The land in question is owned by the state of Nevada and the state legislature is the only body that has the legal power to charge for gazing rights. The fact that most ranchers do pay the Feds when the bill comes is simply a matter that they cannot fight the federal monstrocity.

Note that the Obama administration has 200 fully armed federal police agents with attack dogs and fully automatic military weapons chasing a few cattle ranchers around the Nevada desert. Obama earlier in his administration ended Posse Comitatas which had prevented the use of US military against the citizenry. That act had stood since just after the Civil War.

For the record, Cliven Bundy does pay the state of Nevada for his grazing rights and is current on his payments.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 04:58 PM

Thanks for the sources pdq. Not a single thing you said complies with the reporting I have seen. Are you sure you aren't thinking of Al Bundy?

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 05:03 PM

Ruby Ridge my round pink ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 05:05 PM

>>>A confrontation teetered on violence Wednesday when Bundy family members and dozens of supporters angrily confronted a group of rangers holding Tasers and barking dogs on leashes near Bunkerville, about 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas.

Federal officials say a police dog was kicked and officers were assaulted.<<<

UNPATRIOTIC, IDIOTIC, DOG KICKING ASSHOLES!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: gnu
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 05:12 PM

I watched the vid, JtS. I'da kicked the dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 05:22 PM

What would you be doing confronting the police?

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: gnu
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 05:40 PM

Kickin their fuckin dog, JtS... we just had dogs set upon peaceful protectors against natgas fracking a wee way up the road from me. We don't need jack booted thugs with machine guns and sniper rifles and dogs to come here to tell us we must bow to disease and devastation to profit Big Oil. We don't need it and we don't deserve it. And these ranchers don't either.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 06:03 PM

The Truth has little to do with the story being told by the Mass Media industry.

The Mass Media seem to be dedicated to obfuscation of Truth because the gereral public is too stupid (their opinion, not mine) to handle it.

There is a huge amount of money to be made by land developers, natural gas producers, a solar energy company (Chinese) and water interests.

Bundy owns a lot of land and wants it to stay undeveloped. Just occupied by a few cattle. He has faced 20 years of pressure that amounts to terrorism. Private companies have offered huge money for his land but he will not sell. So, they called in the Feds to get rid of him.

If the Feds succeed in this tyranical power grab, the whole area will start getting industrial devepement, natural gas fracking, massive housing developements, underground water removal in excess quantities, crime, violence and pollution.

And no, ain't one of these people gives a rat's ass about the desert tortoise. In fact, the tortoise reservation is now killing them in wholsale quantities because they feel there are too many and the Feds don't want to spend any more money than they have to to protect them.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 06:13 PM

Yes pdq obviously you imagination and your ass is a much more reliable source of information than the media and the courts.

The thing in nevada is not about fracking gnu. Is about some arse hole halucinating in the same way that pdq is thinking his right to abuse public land supercedes the public's right to preserve it.

Read SRS's first post again. She has lived this crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 06:21 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Don't argue from ignorance
From: Jack the Sailor - PM
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 04:25 PM

"Make a commitment here, not just a link."

Sure thing! since you asked!

Fuck on off to the corset shop you arrogant, ignorant, rude, lying piece of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 06:25 PM

Sorry gnu- yer backing the wrong horse on this. Again. Doesn't it get boring?

PS: Keep a sharp eye out fer them black helicopters & jack-booted storm troopers, eh? Ya never know when they'll come to getcha getcha getcha.

Probably get PeeDee, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 06:48 PM

The roundup started last Saturday after the BLM and National Park Service shut down an area half the size of Delaware to let cowhands using helicopters and vehicles gather about 900 cattle that officials say are trespassing.

The protest that took place a day or two ago was cenetred around a dump ruck and a backhoe.

Seems that the helicopters and roundup practices used by BLM and NP Feds was so vionent that dozens of head of cattle died.

They brought the dump trucks in to haul away the carcuses and the backhoes to bury them.

Do you suppose the got proper permits for burying huge dead animals? Do you suppose they will reimburse the owners for the dead cattle? Do you suppose that is why all protester when supposed to stay in a tiny designated area and nobody was allowed to film the roundup?

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 07:10 PM

Seems that the helicopters and roundup practices used by BLM and NP Feds was so vionent that dozens of head of cattle died.

Documentation?

Suppose all ya want, PeeDee and buy the crap that the Bundy family is selling you.

Perhaps the feds can deduct what they owe the Bundys for a dozen cattle (if true) from the several million the Bundys owe the Government & the taxpayers.

I'll wait for the facts of what these Bundy leeches have been getting away with at taxpayer expense.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 07:55 PM

The BLM has court orders on their side in this issue. Mr. Bundy has been free-loading grazing on public land for far too long; he should have been stopped long ago.
Guest is wrong, laws have changed and the open range is long gone; the lands are managed by the Federal government, not the State of Nevada.

Public safety concerns caused the BLM director to stop proceedings, but the case is very much alive and will eventually hit the courts.

Fracking was never an issue here. Senator Reid is not involved in the situation.

The BLM is doing a good job of taking care of America's lands. They are correcting old ills. In an area near my home town they are closing old mine entrances, and correcting over-grazing practices.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 08:15 PM

BLM Public Lands make up 2/3 of Nevada's land base. The state and politicians would like to get their hands on it.
The BLM manages wildlife of all kinds; wild horses and burros are among them in Nevada (there is an adoption program and numbers are kept within supportable limits).

There are 745 grazing allotments, with 550 licensed operators grazing livestock.

Rangeland health, hydrologic function and flora and fauna are kept as much as possible in a balanced system.

The lands are open to the public- fishing, camping, trails, scenic areas and wide open spaces.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 08:22 PM

Two nice posts Q.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 08:25 PM

Yes, Q does a nice job of channeling Dr. Pangloss.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 08:32 PM

Still waitin' on your documentation, PeeDee

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 09:55 PM

I say, this Reid character seems to be a bit of a rotter. In 2012 he and his son were chumming up to the Chinese on a solar power deal.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/31/us-usa-china-reid-solar-idUSBRE87U06D20120831

It seems the land they promised the Chinese is in Clark county, where this Bundy business is taking place. Bad form. Not cricket at all. It is small wonder that so many of you yanks hate the Republicans.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 10:03 PM

It is small wonder that so many of you yanks hate the Republicans.


WTF??? Harry Reid and all the corrupt politicians you correctly identify are DEMOCRATS!!!

The ranchers and patriots, meaning followers of the US Constitution, are REPUBLICANS.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 10:23 PM

Relax p that is certainly a North American Jack ass trying to pull some leg.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 11:05 PM

By Jove! Harry Reid is a Democrat? I thought the Republicans were the party of money with you colonials. By Camilla's tampax this is a bad business. Bad business indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 11:08 PM

Camilla's tampax

At least you've said something funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST,Abdul on iPad
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 11:24 AM

SRS,, Scofflaws! A new word for me. Love it.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 11:43 AM

Related 

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 12:50 PM

Confusion and misleading posts!

The 9000 acres in Clark County are not on BLM (federal control) lands, but belong to Clark County.
County commissioners have agreed to sell the land to the Chinese-based energy company. The newly formed company is ENN Mohave Energy.

Terms
Negotiating a power purchase plan within 18 months
Hiring 500 full time employees by the end of 2016
Investing $100 million by end of 2014; $350 by end of 2016; $1 billion by end of 2018.
Completing 75% of the agreement within 18 years 11 months of Clark County's approval of the rental agreement.

Former senator Richard Bryan, representing ENN, likened the project's scale and impact to Hoover Dam.

Article in Las Vegas Review Journal, by Kristi Jourdan, Dec 11, 2011.
-------------------------------

The deal has bogged down because agreements with power projects to buy the energy have not yet been made.
Senator Reid and son are trying to facilitate talks between ENN and the energy companies.
Governor Brown of California wants California to be an exporter of energy, not an importer.

Senator Reid's son is still working to get an agreement, but the Chinese are thinking of getting out, since potential buyers for the energy are sitting on their hands.
------------------------------------


The ENN Solar development has absolutely nothing to do with Bundy's Ranch and his failure to get BLM grazing rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 01:02 PM

"Reid has been one of the project's most prominent advocates, helping recruit the company during a 2011 trip to China and applying his political muscle on behalf of the project in Nevada. His son, a lawyer with a prominent Las Vegas firm that is representing ENN, helped it locate a 9,000-acre (3,600-hectare) desert site that it is buying well below appraised value from Clark County, where Rory Reid formerly chaired the county commission."


If Dirty Harry offered the same sweetheart deal to American companies they would come running. Trouble it, they would probably give their political contributions to Republicans. Cant't have that, now.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 01:27 PM

pdq- where do you get your nonsense? Drunk on Tea party libations?

American companies have little interest in developing solar energy at this time. Moreover, the prime mover on solar energy is China.

Reid is not the one offering cheap land, it is Clark County.

The Reids (and Nevada) are trying to keep the Chinese in, but at the moment, any development is a long way in the future. Nevada wants industrial development. Senator Reid would not last long if he failed to support his home base.

Governor Brown of California, also a Democrat, is against the deal since he wants California companies to develop exportable energy (of whatever kind), not import it from Nevada.

Again, this is digression; it has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 01:36 PM

Q,


You are the one who took it off-topic, not I.

I live in Nevada and I cannot print what most Nevadans think of Harry Reid.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 03:34 PM

"The Senate confirmed Neil Kornze to run the Bureau of Land Management, where he currently works as its principal deputy director. Previously, the native Nevadan worked on public lands issues in Majority Leader Harry Reid's (D-Nev.) office.

Kornze, 35, will be in charge of the federal agency that oversees 264 million acres of public lands, primarily in western states. Republicans cited his age in questioning whether he had the necessary experience to run a government department. The Senate approved him 71-28."


That was April 8th, 2014. Only about a week ago!

"Dirty Harry" Reid told Obama to nominate Kornze, his personal director on "public use issues".

"Dirty Harry" Reid is the Senate head which means he pushed his own nominee through approval.

His boy immediately got to work doing Reid's bidding and destroying the last Clark County rancher who was in Reid's way.

The seige was probably called off because the public reaction is one of total revulsion and "Dirty Harry" Reid is up for election this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 03:46 PM

The seige?

Buy a fucking dictionary.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 04:16 PM

Ho hum.
So Obama takes orders from Senator Reid. Well, well.

Reid led the Republican candidate by 6% in the last election- he will do better in the next one as the Teas gradually wither.

The Interior Secretary is Kornze's boss.

The BLM has approved 47 solar, wind and geothermal projects. How many will get off the ground is unknown.
700 million acres of subsurface mineral estate are managed by the BLM.

Back to topic-
Multiple court orders are in effect calling for the removal of Bundy's cattle from public lands.
There are some 16,000 ranchers legally using BLM lands for grazing. Bundy seems to be the sole poacher.
Over 20 years, Bundy owes $1,000,000 for use of public land.

An influx of outsiders and threats of possible injury to the public and BLM employees, were a cause of concern and the BLM concluded the cattle gather and will attempt to end the operation in an orderly manner.

Court orders to remove the cattle remain in effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 04:37 PM

Here's some more arrogance from one of Harry Reid's boys who run Clark County as their own fiefdom...


"Clark County Commissioner Tom Collins has caused outrage by remarking that Utahns planning to travel to Nevada to support Cliven Bundy in his standoff against the feds "better have funeral plans".

The comments were revealed by Darin Bushman, a Piute County, Utah, commissioner after he spoke with Collins about Utah ranchers and his colleagues on the County Commission complaining about tactics used by Bureau of Land Management agents during their seizure of Bundy's cattle in southern Nevada.

"I was just told by commissioner Collins of Clark County NV that all of us folks from Utah are a bunch of "inbred bastards" and if we are coming to Clark County NV to support Cliven Bundy we all "better have funeral plans". We should "turn our asses around on mind our own f-ing business". Now there's some classy leadership for you," wrote Bushman on his official Facebook page.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 05:28 PM

Alas too many Americans still live the Wild West mentality.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 05:48 PM

That's not it entirely, Richard. The media are trying to portray the Bundy Bunch as poor dirt farmers.

In fact, they're millionaires with a sense of entitlement who got those millions by dint of Federal Government subsidies and by failure to pay their bills, notably their grazing fees.

They feel they don't have to obey the law or live by the same rules everyone else does.

Kinda like rich bastards everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 05:50 PM

This kind of nonsense is constantly promoted by unscrupulous monied interests. Sometimes I think that this country needs some sedition laws with some teeth.

A pretty smart person told me yesterday that there was no law requiring him to pay income tax. That we are "bullied into it."

Undermining American society has gone mainstream due to groups like ALEC, AFA, AfP and Faux News.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: gnu
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 06:07 PM

Interesting post, JtS. No requirement to pay US income tax? I hope this gets fleshed out in ensuing posts to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 06:14 PM

They're a bunch of super-wacko idiots, gnu- google "Soverign Citizen Movement".

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Songwronger
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 10:00 PM

Great info on Harry Reid. Hopefully this will lose him his re-election. A real piece of dirt.

This incident is such a good demonstration of why we need the Second Amendment, the right to bear arms. Hundreds of armed feds intent on theft, property destruction and possible murder backed down by hundreds of armed citizens.

Marcy Brooks talks about the "requirement" to pay taxes in this 7-minute clip. I notice a Joe Banister clip is on that page as well. He's ex IRS, says it's all a scam. He's well worth reading and watching on the tax issue.

Tax filing deadline is approaching in the US, and I have to wonder if the Bundy incident wasn't slated to be America's big object lesson for this year--pay your taxes or else. Bill Clinton blew things up to make the point, but that was before the pervasiveness of the internet. Holder and Obama just didn't factor in freedom of speech. Or if they did they didn't have the force of will of Clinton/Reno, the baby burners.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 01:55 AM

There is a lot of resentment against the Feds in the Wild West. The government owns lots of open land, and ranchers have been using it for free or almost nothing for generations. Same thing with cheap leases on many beautiful vacation sites here in California. Now there is pressure to require payment for use of taxpayer-owned resources, and ranchers are up in arms - literally.

I think the rest of the country think it's just and fair for ranchers and oil companies and cottage owners and others to be required to pay to use public lands for profit.

The Ken Burns series on the National Parks told the interesting story of the local fight against Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks, public land that had been used for generations for grazing.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 01:58 AM

http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/code.htm

Law that requires people to pay tax in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:07 AM

It all seems a bit odd that commercial interests should think themselves entitled to use public land and assets without payment.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:32 AM

Is it only me that has noticed that Bundy Ranch is a spoonerism of Randy Bunch?

Ah well.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 08:33 AM

ranchers have been using it for free or almost nothing for generations.

Yup- and at the same time they rant and rave about "entitlement" programs and those bums on welfare.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 11:14 AM

This is what an area rancher has to say.

Note the response to the claim that Cliven Bundy isn't paying his grazing rights bill. The area was closed to all grazing in 1998 so it impossible for him to be receiving grazing bills. No more chance of that than paying one's mortgage bill on El Capitan.



"Ill report all I've been told on this deal with my meetings with Cliven and others. In 1993 they cut their permit by 50% citing the desert tortoise competing for forage with cattle. Some permitees took a buy out and sold out. Cliven stayed and refused to take their offer. He says it was about sixty thousand dollars. By 1998 they had completely closed down the Gold Butte area to livestock grazing. Still Cliven continued to graze. Even paying the county of Clark in which he resides in, in Nevada. So those that claim he never paid are simply mistaken. Of coarse he didn't pay the BLM because they were not sending him a grazing bill, they closed the area to grazing. A side note here: look up tortoise euthinization. They have run out of money to keep tending these turtles they are raising. So they plan on killing all these endangered tortoises they have raised. I believe this is much more to do with a dysfunctional government than aRancher. I don't like the fact that this issue has divided ranchers against ranchers. The sad truth is the government is in a sad state. I believe Cliven could have handled things differently and he will admit to that as well. But ask yourselves, would you sell your lively hood out because of a turtle and some environmental groups pressure on the BLM? I for one would not and when they list this Sage Hen as endangered, I personally believe a lot of us will have to do as Cliven has done and just say enough is enough. I have a love of these ranges, and a love for my cattle, family and my heritage. (Not in that order) I have a family to feed. And I will fight to feed them. Anyway if you have any questions let me know. I'm knee deep in this deal. Especially my wife and her family. On other note.. I hate when people say we run our cattle on these ranges so cheaply. While our fees may seem rather cheap every year, I assure it is very expensive to purchase these grazing rights. Very expensive."

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 11:33 AM

"To environmentalists and the feds..."

That sounds like a rather peculiar combination.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 11:35 AM

I remember how startled I was when I first learned of the grazing-on-BLM lands issue in Oregon. A rancher friend of mine whose land backed up to some public land but who did not have permits to let his cattle roam said that only the BIG ranchers had access; that, he said, is how they got rich in the first place. He said that if they couldn't use public land they would have to reduce their herds.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 01:56 PM

OK, PeeDee-

1. We should believe this anonymous rancher from an equally anonmous source WHY exactly? Did you make him up, or just cut & paste because if its on the internet it must be true?

2. Ya think the BundyBunch Bills might date from before '98?

3. So he's been trespassing on Federal Land for 16 years, and he's still your hero?

I hate when people say we run our cattle on these ranges so cheaply.

I can understand why he's upset when people say "cheaply" - in Bundy's case it wasn't cheap at all. It was FREE.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:07 PM

pdq's quote is from The Republic four days ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:15 PM

No, the statement I posted was by a working rancher and posted on www.ranchers.net, a forum of/by/for cattle ranchers.

It is well-written and puts many facts on the table in a polite manor, something that several Mudcat members are incapable of doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:19 PM

Oh, I see, PeeDee - www.ranchers.net, an obviously unbiassed source.

Now, your reaxction to the fact that tyhe Bundy Bunch has been trespassing on federal land for 16 years?

They shouldn't just round up & move his cattle, they should arrest him for crimiinal tresspass and for wanton damage to/misuse of Federal Property.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:27 PM

Sorry about the misattribution, pdq. I picked it up at

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/3142858/replies?c=23

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:29 PM

Thanks, Bro.

BTW, I believe I still owe you a CD.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:31 PM

:-)   We'll get to it. No hurry.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: gnu
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:37 PM

Well, it seems that the situation has become much more clear with some good investigative journalism I have read and I believe Bundy is, oh, what's the technical term? Oh, yeah... fucked. And for good reason, so it is said. I just hope nobody gets hurt.

Above, I mentioned jack booted thugs up the road from me... different situation altogether now that I understand the true story of Bundy. These bastards in NB.ca need to go. And you won't get the news feeds I get locally from your major media so I shall withdraw from any explanations.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:56 PM

Mean while, back at the ranch...


Please note the the BLM is part of the Departement of the Interior which also manages all of our National Parks, National Forests. etc.

BLM got mostly leftover land that nobody wanted. No harvestable timber. No great scenic featues like the Grand Canyon. Just junk land that nobody wanted.

Their job has always been to manage the land for the benefit of the People. Their job was never to provide huge amounts of money for the rest of the government to spend nor was it their place to punish uppity ranchers and put then out of business.

People Back East do not realize the BLM helps get natural gas, oil, gold, copper, silver, water, etc. ad mauseum to run the country. The government supplies water at a price that is trivial compared to the cost of the giant dams that store it.

The result is that all the raw materials for Prosperity have been there for us to use. It has resulted in the most successful country Earth has even known.

Grazing rights are intened to help ranchers raise cattle that will feed people and provide other goods such as shoes, belts and wallets.

All good things.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 03:28 PM

Thanks for telling us what we already knew, PeeDee, but its all irrelevant to the Bundy debacle.

Another federally subsidized, rich bastard on the wrong side of the law complaining about how hard he has it and getting a crowd of clowns together to whine along with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:16 PM

Left-over land nobody wanted--no harvestable timber, etc.

Oregon alone one million acres of old growth ancient forest is on BLM land. There is some harvest, but the forests provide cover for wildlife and scope for recreation.
Other regions lack the timber resources, but logged land is being re-forested and some of the ills of the past (uncontrolled mining, grazing, logging, etc.), are being addressed.
BLM lands between forested mountains provide pathways for wildlife.

BLM administers and maintains:
4500 miles of scenic, national trails
Over 200,000 miles of fishable streams
8900 sq. mi. of lakes
300 sites for watching wildlife
55 million acres of forests, including 11 million acres with managed foresting.
Generated $6.2 billion in revenues (2009) with about half going to states and counties.

Grazing fees are set well below "market." Bundy, never having paid for it, is entitled to nothing.
Bundy would have had no complaints if he had followed the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:23 PM

Telling us that it is all about Cliven Bundy's cattle damaging the preserve set aside for the desert tortoise, the Obama Admistration sent over 200 BLM and National Park police, some armed with machine guns, to rout a cattle rancher, spending many millions of dollars doing so, while...


"Federal funds for a Nevada-based desert tortoise conservation center are running dry and wildlife officials plan to close the facility and euthanize hundreds of tortoises that were once classified as "endangered" and are currently considered "threatened."

The desert tortoise can be found in the southwestern United States, but its population has been dwindling. In some areas, the tortoise population has decreased by 90 percent since the 1980s, and in the Mojave desert the population is considered "threatened." It is illegal to touch, harm or harass these animals, and the Desert Tortoise Conservation Center has tried to increase their population ever since they were added to the endangered species list in 1990.

Still, only 100,000 desert tortoises are estimated to remain in the wild.

But federal funds are running dry at the Las Vegas Valley facility, and rather than release the animals, officials plan to euthanize about half of the 1,400 tortoises. The 220-acre facility will shut its doors in 2014, and the tortoises deemed feeble to survive in the wild will be set free. Many of the tortoises at the center were formerly kept as pets and are unable to survive in the desert.

"It's the lesser of two evils, but it's still evil," US Fish and Wildlife Service desert tortoise recovery coordinator Roy Averill-Murray told the Associated Press.

The facility usually takes in diseased or injured tortoises and nurtures them back to health, but new arrivals will most likely be put to sleep.

The Bureau of Land Management currently funds the conservation and research center with fees inflicted on those who disturb tortoise habitats. During the housing boom in the early 2000s, the conservation center had plenty of cash, since developers were frequently fined for disturbing such habitats. But since the recession, the BLM has struggled to meet its annual $1 million budget.

Over the past 11 months, the BLM has only accumulated $290,000 in federal mitigation fees that developers are forced to pay.

"With the money going down and more and more tortoises coming in, it never would have added up," BLM spokeswoman Hillerie Patton told AP.

The desert tortoise is the state reptile of both California and Nevada. Millions of these creatures once roamed the deserts of the American southwest and northern Mexico, but they are now a rare sight.

After news broke of the Desert Tortoise Conservation Center's plans to euthanize the vulnerable animals, a petition was launched on Change.org, asking the state of Nevada to seek an alternate method to keep the facility open.

"While I understand that budgets are tight and money is scarce, I believe that the funds required could be raised," states the petition, which was launched by New York resident Seth Webster. "…Please show your support and ask the BLM to cease plants to euthanize and find another way."

The petition had about 50 signatures out of a goal of 10,000 on Monday afternoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:34 PM

PeeDee- you're (wilfully?) ignoring the folks standing with and supporting the Bundy Bunch- the "Oath Keepers" and other right-wing loonie fascist militia and "patriot" groups -heavily armed, by the way - preparing for when Obama declares martial law and starts rounding citizens up & putting them in concentration camps & etc..

Having to deal with these idiots, I'd have sent a sizeable armed contingent, too.

This ain't about turtles. Screw the goddamn tortises-- its about a rich clown repeatedly breaking the law and thinking he's above the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:36 PM

Well, Q...


You are working very hard to miss the point I made.

The BLM's job is to manage lands the belong to the People so as to pronvide raw materials, hunting, fishing, and even cattle so the McBurger customers will have something for lunch.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:39 PM

Oh, and by the way, PeeDee - ya figure the preferable humane thing to do is to turn loose the tortises they know won't be ale to survive in the wild & let 'em croak slowly on their own instead of euthanizing 'em?

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:08 PM

Hmm - how about additional conservation funding aid for by taxes on the rich? Or by what Bundythief should have paid?

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 09:09 PM

Interesting to me is the sociological aspect. People showing up to protest but wearing guns? That's fairly new I think. Any takes on that?

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:13 PM

"Federal funds for a Nevada-based desert tortoise conservation center are running dry and wildlife officials plan to close the facility and euthanize hundreds of tortoises that were once classified as "endangered" and are currently considered "threatened."

Carol told me that President Reagan, dirty old tree hugger that he was set the fees that Bundy was welching on buy exec order and that the fees that Bundy was supposed to pay were earmark for the desert tortoise. A million dollars no doubt could have kept the rescue station open a little longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:17 PM

"The BLM's job is to manage lands the belong to the People so as to pronvide raw materials, hunting, fishing, and even cattle so the McBurger customers will have something for lunch. "

So why do you have a problem with them MANAGING the fucking land?

If you think it is the people's land, your land. You are a moron to let Bundy decide how it should be managed. Dozens of farmers stopped grazing that land. Bundy need to pay his fees and remove his cattle or go to jail.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:40 PM

Misinformation debunked in case it hasn't been shared here already.

Right wing disinformation: Bundy's Land Is NOT Solar Farm for Harry Reid

Right wing seizes on Bundy trespass to go after Harry Reid

When a local issue goes national, it is often warped into other political agendas. We see that clearly with Cliven Bundy's 20 years of public land cattle trespass coming to a head.

A cursory search shows a sudden explosion of articles claiming Nevada's senior senator, Harry Reid, wants Bundy's land (all Bundy actually owns is a melon farm) to build a solar plant to enrich himself and his son. Since Reid is the U.S. Senate Majority Leader, the radical right has every incentive to harm him by making this false claim. Such a blatant lie needs to be exposed.

Bundy has been trespassing over 750,000 acres of U.S. public land to the south of Mesquite and Bunkerville, Nevada. Bundy's actual private property is his melon farm at Bunkerville, which looks like maybe 100 acres on Google Earth. There is a solar farm. But it is not on the huge swath of land Bundy is trespassing on. The solar facility is actually under construction near the Moapa Indian Reservation about ten miles closer to Las Vegas.

The Wildlife News has been critical of many solar farms in the desert because of the massive destruction of wildlife habitat, but this farm under construction is not one of the dangerous mirror farms like Ivanpah near Primm, Nevada/California. It is a photovoltaic farm and it is being built to allow decommissioning of the Reid Gardner coal generation station nearby. Reid Gardner is one of the dirtiest coal plants in the nation. In addition, the new solar plant will also help the tribe which has been badly abused in the past, being left with only a 1000 acre reservation. . .

Read the rest at the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:46 PM

Grazing fees on BLM land go way back- long before Reagan.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Songwronger
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:27 AM

Why so desperate to save the honor of Dirty Harry Reid, Silly River?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/13/nevada-bundy-ranch-standoff-could-leave-dirt-on-ha/?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medi

That's a link to a Washington Times story about Reid's buddy at the BLM trying to steal the land. Freezes up my computer or I'd post it.

Reid's most recent embarrassment was when he said that all of the people who told bad stories about Obamacare were liars. All of them. Over 7 million kicked off their insurance plans, tens of thousands losing their doctors, having to pay double in new rates, hospitals closing, doctors quitting, children dying...Reid said that all of the millions of people who told those stories were lying. All of them.

He's a fucking lunatic, and he did indeed think that his felonious BLM buddy could just send out 200 Pinkertons to kill off a ranching family so Reid Junior could make some quick yuan with the Chinese.

Nuremberg trials, Reid, Holder, Obama. It's coming, and a million childish "debunking" sites won't stop it. Don't defend Reid and his big money interests, people. Get on the right side of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:58 AM

This ain't rocket science. It's publicly owned land. He was given notice of the law. It is the well uttered phrase doctrine. He owes fees. He is a thief. Nothing more to it. Song wringer, quit being an ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 02:20 AM

PDQ says: Their (BLM) job has always been to manage the land for the benefit of the People. Their job was never to provide huge amounts of money for the rest of the government to spend nor was it their place to punish uppity ranchers and put then out of business.

That's true, but the political climate of the nation has changed as our government has moved into a culture of austerity. Just as some people object to subsidizing poor people, others have come to object to subsidizing businesses. So, yeah, the government now has to charge for things it used to give businesses for free. Even people who paid for the Social Security and Medicare benefits they receive, are condemned for depending on "entitlements."

Tit for tat, ya know.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 10:23 AM

People showing up to protest but wearing guns?


Well, Guest, apparently you haven't kept abreast of the "Patriot" groups, the "Militia" groups, the "Oath Keepers" the "Posse Comitatus" and such like many more extreme right-wing dangerous lunatic groups that have rushed in to support the Bundy Crooks.

For a start, check these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_%28organization%29

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/03/oath-keepers

http://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/active_patriot_groups.pdf

And there's much more where that came from.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 10:23 AM

This is serious business.

The Feds sent over 200 police, some with machine guns or sniper rifles, to evict about 800 cows that were wandering aimlessly over nearly a million acres of undeveloped land. There are mustangs (wild horses), wild burros, deer and antelope wandering over these same public lands and eating grass and weeds also. So what.

The Mudcat response is to pull out today's Democratic National Committee talking points and claim that everything is just the way it should be. Nothing to see here. Now, just move on...

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 10:39 AM

No, PeeDee, yours is stupid business.

You're spouting more smokescreen bullshit- this is about a rich tax cheat and leech breaking the law.

Assuming, of course, that you realize this is a nation of laws.

You apparently also know nothing about - or simply choose to ignore- the damage herds of cattle can do as opposed to "wild burros, deer and antelope".

How many people do you think it would take to round up 800 head of cattle in an area as large as the one involved? Have any direct experience of livestock?

The Mudcat response is to pull out today's Democratic National Committee talking points...

Its hard to believe you can actually be THAT stupid, but there you have it in black & white.

[The BLM'S] job has always been to manage the land for the benefit of the People.

Close, PeeDee, but no cigar. Their job has always been to manage the land for the benefit of the People ACCORDING TO THE MANAGEMENT PLAN, GUIDELINES AND REGULATIONS PERTAINING TO THE PARTICULAR TRACT OF LAND IN QUESTION.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 10:46 AM

Pdq .... what a load of crap. Times have changed. This guy is a millionaire using public lands to be one. Conservatives don't mind short hanging my grand kids education, but ask a millionaire to pay for a resource he is getting rich off of, and right away it is an attack on liberty. Don't folks like you get tired of being saps for these bastards?

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 11:00 AM

The very bottom line is about those whose attitude is "I don't like to be told what to do and my interests supersede any regulation!". and who then take that convenient, but flawed, premise to any logical conclusion they wish.

The basic point is that of a bully... and one way they use it is to turn it around and call anyone who tries to control their selfish behavior (like the government) a bully.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 11:22 AM

Does this court case relate tk this situation?

UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff-Appellee,versus Clifford GARDNER; Bertha Gardner, Defendants-Appellants.


posted before? 

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 11:27 AM

Sure looks like it, Ed - another bunch of greedy morons who feel they can do whater they want whenever they choose, and the law be damned.

Plenty more of 'em, too - and not just cattle ranchers.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:40 PM

Thanks, Greg F. I guess it doesn't make the Canadian news.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 01:04 PM

Don't feel bad, guest- these wacko groups don't make the news down here in the lower 48 much either. Yet they're proliferating all the time.

Guess the U.S. media is too busy worrying about Muslim Tay-rists & other shibboleths to pay attention to real threats.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST,not a lawyer, but...
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 01:22 PM

The legal arguments very clearly explained (with citations) here.
Bundy has been knowingly breaking the law for a long time.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/12/1291572/-Does-rancher-Bundy-have-a-legal-claim-No

Someone make link please?

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 01:40 PM

1998- A federal judge issued a permanent injunction against Bundy. His appeal lost in 9th Circuit of Appeals.

12 lawsuits are pending against other ranchers who deny BLM rights.

See article in Washington Post; Jaime Fuller, "Everything you need to know about the long fight between Cliven Bubdy and the federal government." April 15.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 02:22 PM

PDQ says: The Feds sent over 200 police, some with machine guns or sniper rifles, to evict about 800 cows

That's probably true, PDQ - and why is it that the Feds have to show up with such gunpower? Because Bundy and his lot believe they are a law unto themselves, and they're not afraid to use their guns to prove it.

And this paranoid fear of the Federal Government (or need to assert superiority over government) is a reason why many gun owners so vehemently oppose any attempt at gun control. Not all gun owners are like that, but many are. Many live in my neighborhood.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:03 PM

Many live in my neighborhood.

Not just your neighborhood, Joe. These dangerous fools are all over the place and their ranks are growing daily. Just check the websites of some of the "patriot" and other groups I noted, above.

And don't forget to thank the National Rifle Assoc. for stoking and promoting that paranoia.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:56 PM

not a lawyer link 

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 05:25 PM

Thanks for that, Ed. Makes it pretty clear that Bundy is a nut job among nut jobs. But then, most far right-wingers and Repugs these days are.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 03:57 PM

It's also quite an interesting demonstration that "the right to bear arms" is totally useless in the face of federal firepower and might as well be abandoned.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 04:55 PM

I am all about the right to arm bears.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 05:03 PM

From Politico:

1. Bundy has been fighting BLM for more than 20 years. The rancher hasn't paid the BLM's grazing fees since 1993, and a federal judge first ordered him to remove his cattle from the land in 1998. In July, another judge said the BLM could remove his cattle if it was still on public land by the end of August. Bundy says he owes the government more than $300,000 in unpaid fees, but the government says he owes $1 million, plus the cost of the recent round-up. Either way, Bundy tells the Las Vegas Sun that he won't pay.

2. The Bundy family has owned its ranch since the 1870s. The ranch is only about 160 acres, which isn't enough space to sustain the hundreds of cattle that Bundy owns. He insists the disputed land around his ranch belongs to the state of Nevada, rather than the federal government, and he says the feds have no authority in the area. He told the Sun the government is trying to sabotage his plans to someday turn the ranch over to his son.

3. Bundy doesn't recognize the federal government. Speaking to conservative radio host Dana Loesch last week, he said he believes in a "sovereign state of Nevada" and abides by all state laws, but, "I don't recognize the United States government as even existing." (As The Atlantic notes, the Nevada Constitution says a citizen's first allegiance is to the federal government.)

5. BLM is in charge of 245 million acres of public land nationwide. 155 million acres of that area is available for livestock grazing in the West, and the agency has nearly 18,000 active permits and leases with ranchers in the West. BLM says its objective with public grazing is "to ensure the long-term health and productivity" of the land and environment.

6. The federal government owns more than 81 percent of all land in Nevada. BLM, alone, oversees 68 percent of the state, according to a 2010 report by the Congressional Research Service. Federal ownership of land is heavily concentrated in western states, with the government owning 47 percent of all combined land in the 11 western-most states, and only 4 percent in the rest of the country.

7. Bundy's supporters have roots in the Sagebrush Rebellion. The battle over federal land-use policy flared up in the 1970s, as a more environmentally oriented federal government began imposing regulations on its vast holdings in the West. Many ranchers accused President Jimmy Carter of using regulations to target states that didn't support him in 1976 or 1980. In a 1980 campaign stop in Utah, then-candidate Ronald Reagan said offered his support for the Sagebrush Rebellion: "Count me in as a rebel."

Another article from San Francisco Chronicle has a photo of Bundy with a pocket-sized version of the U.S. Constitution. To what purpose, one wonders? Swatting flies?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 05:27 PM

Time to arrest this clown and slap him in jail. Actually, its way PAST time. And the rest of the "soverign citizen" cretins with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 06:20 PM

Where is that damned "like" button?

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 06:37 PM

Federal agency's treatment of residents at the Bundy Ranch this past week included tasering, beating, wrongful arrest, threatening residents with attack dogs, and mobilizing a federal paramilitary force whose barrels were trained on US citizens, all in all, spending at least $3 million of tax payer money in an effort to sell stolen cattle over state lines in Utah and California. A legal argument has also been made that the US Department of Interior's Bureau of Land Management (BLM) is now guilty of racketeering under the federal RIC) statute (Racketeer Influenced and Corruption Organizations). If all that wasn't enough, evidence is now emerging regarding pattern of extreme cruelty and abuse, and suspected culling of animals from the Bundy Ranch.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/04/16/exclusive-evidence-of-blms-deadly-abuse-of-animals-taken-from-bundy-ranch/

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:08 PM

Space aliens beam that info directly into your brain, guest? Or is it just your own hallucination?

Or perhaps your a publicity agent for the Sovergn Citizens Militia?

PS: you forgot to mention the black helicopters.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 10:20 PM

A good summary 

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 12:05 PM

Nevada should call out the National Guard to deal with opponents of the federal government who interfere forcibly with the BLM agency.
Bundy himself should be in a jail cell.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Songwronger
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 06:39 PM

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wo/blm_library/tech_notes.Par.29872.File.dat/TN_444.pdf

That's a link to a BLM document posted last month. Talks about Solar Energy Zones. The Bundy ranch is one of the last remaining parcels of land needed to create a corridor for an SEZ. The document describes how people can be screwed out of their land using phony environmental practices. Just one of the corridors mentioned there is over 1400 square kilometers.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 07:38 PM

Looks like a good plan. Bundy should lose his 160 acres for failure to pay for many years of illegal grazing. He does not own a viable ranch.

At this time, however, no one seems ready to buy energy from the proposed solar installation in Clark County.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 09:36 PM

Reid calls Bundy supporters 'domestic terrorists:

Reid 

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 12:57 AM

Senator Harry Reid, Democrat of Nevada, will be awarded the 2014 "Incitement to Civil War" Trophy by Alabama citizen journalist and Second Amendment activist Mike Vanderboegh at a ceremony at the Cliven Bundy Ranch on Saturday, April 19, 2014. Vanderboegh, who with fellow writer David Codrea first broke the Fast and Furious scandal story in a series on the Internet in December 2010 and January 2011, is in Nevada to show support for the Bundy family and their struggle with the federal government.

Said Vanderboegh, "When Dirty Harry Reid tells us that 'This isn't over' and calls the Bundys and their supporters "'domestic terrorists' he is using -- literally -- the 'bully pulpit' to solicit the next American civil war. Reid is a corrupt bully and he understands that this struggle is not about tortoises or cows or even the vast spaces of the American west claimed by the federal government, it is about power, federal power to use naked state-sponsored terrorism to compel the American people to do what the perfumed princes of Harry Reid's Mandarin class insist is for their own good, even if it kills them."

"It was the misbehavior and jack-booted thuggery of the Bureau of Land Management run by Reid's toady that motivated people to come to the Bundys' defense. This is about two fundamentally different answers to this question: 'Does the government serve the people as the Founders intended, or will the people be servants of the government?' Harry Reid believes that the people should serve the government -- or else. For inciting the federal government into planning for another Waco, Reid more than deserves this award."

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 09:01 AM

Reid calls Bundy supporters 'domestic terrorists:

And he's absolutely correct.

They're also, by taking up arms against the government, traitors and should be treated as such.

Slap Vanderboegh in jail for inciting treason and ditto Wayne LaPierre for giving aid and comfort to terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 12:50 PM

Now Here's the deal.....

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 12:52 PM

New York Times column, Apr. 18, 2014
"Deadbeat on the Range."

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 12:58 PM

Ya figure folks couldn't read the title of the article for themselves, Q?

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 01:09 PM

The politics

Unsurprisingly, Bundy has become a political symbol.
Senate Majority Harry Reid, D-Nevada, called him a "domestic terrorist."
"These people who hold themselves out to be patriots are not," he said in Las Vegas.
Democratic Rep. Dina Titus told journalist John Ralston that Bundy is "not a folk hero," Ralston tweeted, but said Reid shouldn't call him a terrorist.
But libertarian-minded Sen. Rand Paul of Kentucky criticized the federal government's response, saying it "shouldn't violate the law, nor should we have 48 federal agencies carrying weapons and having SWAT teams."

"Can everybody decide what the law is on their own? No, there has to be a legal process," he said on WHAS radio in Louisville. "But I think there is definitely a philosophic debate over who should own the land."

From

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/18/politics/nevada-bundy-ranch-land-rights/

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 01:11 PM

Wow, Greg F.
Are guns like the the one pictured legally allowed to be used in public spaces, in the USA, (and in Nevada)?

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 01:40 PM

Oh yeah, Ed. AR15's R Us, no problam. Only thing you can't buy over the counter without a special license are fully automatic weapons (repeat fire as long as you hols the trigger back).

And in Nevada- and most other states you can purchase as many as you want, and an unlimited supply of ammo.

Thanks to the National Rifle Assassination these anti-government "patriot" and "militia" groups are well-armed.

Sen. Rand Paul of Kentucky criticized the federal government's response, saying it "shouldn't violate the law" .

Uh, Rand, it was BUNDY that violated the law, not the Feds.

Guess Rand Paul doesn't recognize the federal government either.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 01:42 PM

Nevada gun laws permit open carry, except inside a vehicle, where the gun must be unloaded.

One does need a license for concealed carry, but not open carry.

So wear that pearl-handled showpiece on your hip, but I think they make you check it when you visit a casino.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 01:46 PM

(Sorry, I read the thread as Randy Bunch Stand-Off...)

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 01:59 PM

Nevada gun laws permit open carry...& etc

That's handguns, Q. I don't think it applies to long guns, on which there are virtually no restrictions.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 02:01 PM

"So wear that pearl-handled showpiece on your hip, but I think they make you check it when you visit a casino."

And, maybe in church-well, for those in the state who do that:)

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 02:05 PM

No restrictions on long guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 02:36 PM

Are there limits?

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 02:48 PM

There hasn't been such a disproportionate response since...


Fearless Fosdick

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: pdq
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 02:57 PM

Here we have Fearless Fosdick trying to please the BLM chief's mommy...



more of Fearless

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 05:42 PM

And, more of Fearless Peedee who could have handled that mob of armed to the teeth "Soverign Citizens" and rounded up that 800 head of cattle all by himself.

What a load of crap he's selling.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 06:49 PM

So PeeDee, Gnu, & the rest of the pro-Bundyites: How did ya like your hero's comments on cotton pickin' nigras & etc?

What a guy, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 09:29 PM

An article in my local newspaper referred to Bundy as a "Welfare Queen." I'm sure people of Bundy's ilk would be appalled at single mothers with six kids supported by welfare checks (which are much harder to get than they used to be). But no doubt, they think nothing of millionaires who make megabucks from the government. Why should Bundy be able to pasture his cattle for free?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 10:47 PM

What amazes me is the shock and surprise of the people who have just caught on that the man is a racist nut case. Sad to say but scofflaws and idiocy go together.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 07:51 AM

Apparently, from the reactions & statements of Rand Paul, Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott, Nevada State Assemblywoman Michele Fiore, Ted Cruz,Texas Governor Rick Perry and Herman Cain & etc &etc - Republicans and idiocy go together.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 11:09 AM

Yes, but we already knew that Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 11:23 AM

Here's Bundy on YouTube with 3+ minutes of ... crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 10:31 AM

Sadly this old fool voiced the feelings of a lot of people in this country whose inclinations to hate and fear people different from themselves have been cultivated by right wing politicians (and their lackies in the press) in order to cobble together some kind of, any kind of, constituency.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 12:15 PM

Sadly this old fool voiced the feelings of a lot of people in this country whose inclinations to hate and fear the government have been cultivated by right wing politicians (and their lackies in the press) in order to cobble together some kind of, any kind of, constituency.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 May 14 - 09:46 AM

Yet another bunch of slack-jawed morons who belong in jail:

Dozens of protesters ride in off-limits canyon
Associated Press May 11, 2014
By Martin Griffith and Brady McCombs

Dozens of people rode their ATVs and motorcycles on an off-limits trail in southern Utah in a protest against what the group calls the federal government's overreaching control of public lands.

San Juan County Sheriff Rick Eldredge said from 40 to 50 people, many of them waving American flags and some carrying weapons, drove about a mile down Recapture Canyon near Blanding Saturday and then turned around. Hundreds attended a rally at a nearby park before the protest.

Recapture Canyon is home to dwellings, artifacts and burials left behind by Ancestral Puebloans as many as 2,000 years ago before they mysteriously vanished.

The riders may have damaged artifacts and dwellings that "tell the story of the first farmers in the Four Corners region" of Utah, Arizona, New Mexico and Colorado, BLM Utah State Director Juan Palma said in a statement.

Some of Cliven Bundy's children and militia supporters also took part in the protest in Recapture Canyon. "This is where it's happening Saturday," Bundy backer Ryan Payne of Montana told the Las Vegas Sun. "This is a continuation of the Bundy affair."


Whole Article >Here

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 May 14 - 05:53 PM

Bundy-ite domestic terrorists to invade Washington:
**

Operation American Spring to hit D.C. to oust Obama, Biden, Boehner, Holder

A group of self-described revolutionary-style patriots with a million mobilized militia members are heading to downtown Washington, D.C., this week to bring a simple message to political leadership, from President Obama to House Speaker John Boehner: Get out.

They're called the Operation American Spring — and they're vowing to oust the likes of Mr. Obama, Mr. Boehner, Attorney General Eric Holder, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Sen. Mitch McConnell, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi and Vice President Joseph R. Biden.

"We are calling for [their] removal … as a start toward constitutional restoration," said retired Army Col. Harry Riley, the leader of the group. "They have all abandoned the U.S. Constitution, are unworthy to be retained in a position that calls for servant status."

The aim of the group, too, is to influence those politicos who aren't targeted for ouster to "sponsor and pass very constitutionally crafted state legislation to dissolve the size, powers, scope and spending of the U.S. government by two-thirds," the media outlet reported.

The group expects between 10 million and 30 million similarly thinking Americans to meet them in the capital on Friday for a rally that's being billed as a sort of "Arab Spring" for Americans.

Meanwhile, the group is holding another event on the same day in Bunerkville, Nev., near cattle rancher Cliven Bundy's property and in support of his stand-off with the Bureau of Land Management over grazing fees.

The Friday event was promoted by Tea Party Nation.

Col. Riley said he hopes the event will go forward peaceably, but that so far, peaceful protests haven't brought citizens much luck. He also said that more than 1 million militia members have already mobilized for the event — and that projections of 10 million to attend aren't pie in the sky.

"For more than five years, 'we the people' have been writing, calling, faxing Congress, the media, screaming in town halls, marching, rallying, demonstrating, petitioning, all to no avail," he said, Raw Story reported. "Every branch of government looks at 'we the people' whom they have taken an oath to serve, as 'pests,' interfering with their political agenda, cramping their self-serving, greedy agendas. We have no faith in the ballot box any longer, as many believe this sacred secret box has been compromised.

© Copyright 2014 The Washington Times, LLC. Click here for reprint permission.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 May 14 - 06:26 AM

Bedlam Boys are bonny!

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: frogprince
Date: 17 May 14 - 03:59 PM

"Well, it seems that the situation has become much more clear with some good investigative journalism I have read and I believe Bundy is, oh, what's the technical term? Oh, yeah... fucked. And for good reason, so it is said. I just hope nobody gets hurt.

Above, I mentioned jack booted thugs up the road from me... different situation altogether now that I understand the true story of Bundy."    Gnu's last post on the thread.

" So PeeDee, Gnu, & the rest of the pro-Bundyites: How did ya like your hero's comments on cotton pickin' nigras & etc?" Greg F.

Greg F., you have a remarkable gift for alienating people who largely agree with you. It would help a lot if you would just remember that the proper sequence is not "ready, shoot, aim."

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 May 14 - 04:39 PM

Actually, Frogprince, gnu's last post was ":These bastards in NB.ca need to go. And you won't get the news feeds I get locally from your major media so I shall withdraw from any explanations."

He was commenting on what he considered over-reaction of government "jack-booted thugs" in both cases - never said he still didn't admire Bundy and his "militia" buddies.

And PeeDee STILL thinks Bundy is a patriotic hero.

And by the way - this was all said over a month ago. You just catching up on your reading? Or did it just seem like a good idea to give me a jab in the ass & you had to dig around for an excuse??

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 14 - 08:09 AM

Cliven Bundy leaves GOP for 'Independent American Party'

By Associated Press / May 27, 2014

Cliven Bundy filled out paperwork for his new party registration at an event in Las Vegas that honored Cliven Bundy for what organizers called 'his courage in standing up for state sovereignty: states are sovereign and should not be 'commanded' by the Federal Government."

Bundy and his new terrorist group should review the section in their high school history texts on the Civil War.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 14 - 09:37 AM

I wonder why Bundy and his ilk think they are any different than an inner city drug gang. Group engages in unlawful behavior. Police show up to enforce the law and are met by criminals with guns. Would anyone complain about jack-booted thugs after a gun battle between police and a drug gang?

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 May 14 - 10:01 AM

Well now, there ya go again, Guest - Interjecting logic & fact into the discussion. We can't have that, ya know.....

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 29 May 14 - 01:17 PM

and what the heck does state's rights have to do with federal land?!?

Federal land is um, let's see now... oh yeah, owned by the federal government in trust for the nation...

if you don't pay your rent you get evicted... if the rent is for a storage unit, they get to auction off the contents after due process. round up the cattle & off to auction with them...

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 14 - 01:26 PM

Just think of it as Occupy Nevada.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: LadyJean
Date: 30 May 14 - 12:14 AM

My sister, our father, our grandfathers, our great grandfather, our great uncle, our great great uncle and our cousin Miriam could all write Esquire after their names. Which in the USA means they were lawyers. (My sister still is.) Mr. Bundy should have hired a good attorney. I gather he could afford one, and I'm sure they have them in Nevada.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 May 14 - 12:54 AM

sheeeeh LadyJean, are you saying that a 'good' lawyer would have defended Bundy's right to graze his cattle on land that wasn't his, without paying for it? For 20 years? (That kind of thing is what gives a lawyer a bad name.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: GUEST,Guest (crashed Q)
Date: 30 May 14 - 03:19 PM

There are hungry lawyers who would take the case of this old crook.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 09:37 AM

SALT LAKE CITY, June 12 (Reuters) - An advocacy group for public employees sued the Bureau of Land Management on Thursday, seeking documents detailing the agency's actions during an armed standoff with militia in a dispute over a Nevada rancher's grazing rights.................

.....PEER says it is a national group that works on behalf of public employees of local, state and national environmental agencies to ensure their fair treatment and safety.

Its attorneys are also asking the BLM to disclose a 2013 annual report which documents threats and attacks on agency workers. The report has been available every year since 1996, according to the lawsuit, but has yet to be published for 2013.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/12/cliven-bundy-standoff_n_5489562.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 02:25 PM

And the bats are on the wing..... these people are allowed to own firearms???

***

Rancher: Standoff with Feds a Spiritual Battle
Associated Press, August 4, 2014

ST. GEORGE, Utah (AP) — Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy claims the April confrontation between the federal government and his armed supporters was part of an age-old spiritual battle between good and evil.

Bundy, a Mormon, told an Independent American Party gathering in St. George, Utah, on Saturday that God provided him personal inspiration in the showdown over cattle in Bunkerville, Nevada, about 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas.

"The Lord told me ... if (the local sheriff doesn't) take away these arms from federal agents, we the people will have to face these arms in a civil war. The Lord said, 'This is your chance to straighten this thing up,'" Bundy said, according to The Spectrum of St. George (http://bit.ly/1pRx8nq ).

Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie has said Bundy crossed the line when he allowed states' rights supporters, including self-proclaimed militia members, onto his property to aim guns at police.

Bundy, a states' rights advocate, refuses to acknowledge federal authority on public lands.

Bundy said people from across the country rallied around him because they were "spiritually touched," and he suggested they would not have prevailed had God not been on their side.

"If the standoff with the Bundys was wrong, would the Lord have been with us?" he asked, noting no one was killed as tensions escalated. "Could those people that stood (with Bundy) without fear and went through that spiritual experience ... have done that without the Lord being there? No, they couldn't."

About 100 to 120 people attended Saturday's gathering, and Bundy questioned why more people were not present.

"Where is all of your college students? Where's our young and where's our old? Where's our black and where's our brown?" he asked. "Where are you people? Aren't you interested in freedom and liberty?"


Information from: The Spectrum, http://www.thespectrum.com

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 10:35 PM

The Lord is downright folksy, isn't he.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 01:55 AM

Am I the only one who reads the thread title every time as, "Randy Bunch Stand-Off"? :-)

(note for the USA-ians: in UK-speak, "randy" = "horny").

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Musket
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 03:31 AM

As this is about cattle, perhaps you should explain horny too...


This reminds me of a bloke who kept bantam chickens in a village where I used to live. They kept escaping and shitting all over the neighbours lawn. The neighbour eventually got (memory going here..) either a court order or a council order of some description to get him to keep them on his land.

Predictably, we all had a laugh in the pub when he declared he had nailed the order to the chicken shed but he wasn't certain they could read the bugger.

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 03:43 AM

Oh, I think they understand 'horny'! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Musket
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:52 AM

Bantys do.

Jake Thackeray was spot on.

My brother used to keep them. You have to keep the cock out of the hen house or they never get any peace...

Subject: RE: BS: Bundy ranch stand off
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 10:54 AM

It's when the vultures start circling the Banty cock's at his most dangerous! :-)