BS: English Grandma

Subject: BS: English Grandma
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 06:49 PM

Well, OK, English Grammar really but I did get your attention :-)

I am not the worlds best writer but I do find that some grammatical errors throw a sensible argument into disarray because some people, including myself, can easily miss-interpret them.

That we should not boldly go somewhere up with which I will not put does not really interest me. Nor do double negatives not never drive me mad. I can usually figure out the gist of those threads. But abhorrent apostrophes and curious commas do often, in the vernacular, do my head in.

I pointed out elsewhere that a comma should be used to separate differing statements in a single sentence. The fact that I like to play accordion and practice Tai Chi should not be confused with the fact that I like to play accordion, and practice Tai Chi. We were taught not to use a comma before and or but, but that is blatantly untrue :-) Apostrophes should replace missing letters or sounds, or to show possession. I often get it wrong but I do try. Using "I" or "me" is quite easy to remember as long as you remove the other party. Fred and Me play folk music, without Fred, is Me play folk music. Obviously wrong. I have never got the hang of who and whom but, apparently, there is a movement afoot to remove whom so I can be safe in my ignorance.

Anyone got any good rules we should stick to to (to too, too to, tutu?) avoid misunderstandings of the type we often get here?

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: Charmion
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 08:40 AM

Sorry, Dave, but -- in my admittedly arrogant opinion -- "misunderstanding" at Mudcat typically arises from disingenuousness, ignorance, ideology and/or bloody-mindedness, not grammatical error.

Variations in rhetorical style are also a rich source of argument, usually of the Yanks-vs-Brits type. Someone determined to take offence can manage it without so much as an Oxford comma.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 11:01 AM

But I am not talking about that type of misunderstanding, Charmion. If I was I would have said. Honestly! I am just interested in any tints and hips for avoiding grammatical errors.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 12:59 PM

You may have heard of a very good book called 'Eats, Shoots and Leaves'
by Lynn Truss. In it she explains very plainly the pitfalls and correct usage of grammar. The title describes a sign she once saw on the zoo enclosure of a panda. The redundant comma made her imagine a fully-clothed animal entering a restaurant, having a meal, refusing to pay, letting rip with his pistol and making his escape.
I find punctuation rather helpful; far from presenting us with pitfalls, it clarifies somewhat the intended meaning. One can indeed use a comma after 'and'. For example, 'The man wore a red hat and, a cold wind having sprung up, his warmest coat." The pause helps the flow of the sentence. Otherwise, it might seem as if the chap wore the cold wind. I think the best way to learn good grammar and punctuation is to read as much as one can. That way, the useful rules are absorbed quite painlessly!

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 01:02 PM

I think the comma in your example is unnecessary.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 01:14 PM

I think it quite necessary, Q, but should be before the and. I am willing to be educated otherwise though. Like I said before, the difference between my practicing Tai Chi, and playing accordion or practicing Tai Chi and playing accordion. The latter could prove quite difficult! Maybe it should be a semi-colon though? Anyone know?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 01:40 PM

The difference between the two is self-evident, therefore the comma is unnecessary.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 01:49 PM

Hmmmm - OK. But it then becomes open to interpretation and likely to be misunderstood or misrepresented. With the comma it is absolutely clear, is it not? I have also seen in this reference and many others that while the comma may not be deemed necessary, it is not incorrect to include it.

Not arguing, Q, just providing an alternate viewpoint which I find more acceptable.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 02:19 PM

A great advocate of the use of the comma before 'and' was the late and delightful Arthur Marshall. Here are a couple of his sentences as examples:-

'Wishful to stir memories, many of them quaint, and chancing to be passing through the district, I too paid a visit to my old prep school.'

'An air of frivolity was everywhere, and then he discovered that the school had now become a private lunatic asylum.'

(Taken from 'Life's Rich Pageant')

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 02:27 PM

Another example where the comma before 'and' will obviate a possible ambiguity or misunderstanding:-

"The company's repertoire will consist of light operas and musical comedies by Lehar, Gilbert and Sullivan, Friml, and Rodgers and Hammerstein."

In Eliza's above example, I think the greatest aid to understanding would be commas both before and after the 'and'. {Read it aloud, and feel how the cadence suggests this double comma. Indeed, reading aloud, and feeling where a momentary pause is implied, can often be helpful.}

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: gnu
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 03:06 PM

Lest we forget, the usage of commas and even, as yet, 'odd punctuation' (e.g. '...') and the like, sometimes denotes dialect. While strict convention is always proper and often desired/preferred by the reader(s), some writers intentionally attempt to use their dialect in their writings by way of punctuation and phonetic spelling to thereby infuse a sense of where they are comin from eh? Ya know what I mean? Right or wrong is simply a matter of who gives two shits from Tuesday. Me? Pffft.

Now, if we are talkin yer tech type er legal er some such, ya gotta nail it on accounta there ain't no room fer error, right? But, light hearted banter? Nah. You won't find any grammatical errors in my Master's Thesis but the crap I spew herein?... well, I wonder at times if youse can even read it. Or do I mean... I wonder, at times, if yees understand what I wrote? >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 03:16 PM

I always smile when attempting to read works by Robert Burns. I studied English (!) Literature as an extra at Edinburgh University, and the Scots were anxious to include him in that category. My problems arose when I first saw the texts for study. They consisted almost entirely of apostrophes sparsely sprinkled with the odd letter. This punctuation was intended to convey the pronunciation of Scots, a language I hadn't in those days come across. Cockney also has much the same addiction to the apostrophe in an attempt to represent the glottal stop. So gnu you're quite right, many of these sorts of things are trying to help us appreciate dialect/accent. The only way to do that totally accurately of course is by the use of Phonetic Script, but not everyone has learned that.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 10:58 AM

Capitalization is important, too.

It's the difference between helping your uncle Jack off a horse, and helping your uncle jack off a horse.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 12:01 PM

Works by Gilbert and Sullivan are referred to as light opera in many references; Lehar often is called a composer of comic operas or operettas.
Your example "The company's repertoire.....," is confusing if not incorrect.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 12:33 PM

Don't quite see your point, Q. I agree with your summary of the nature of those composers' work, and don't see where my example said anything different.

It was meant, however, in the context of this thread (which is not an above-line musical one anyhow), not as any sort of musical statement as such, but simply as an illustration of how the omission of the comma before the 'and' leading to the final item on a list, can sometimes lead to ambiguities or misunderstandings.

Now, would you care to explain what the hell you were on about?

Or, if not, to take yourself off, there's a good fellow...

~M~

Or perhaps you were trying to be funny...

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 12:38 PM

Since you ask.... this site has more answers than you will ever need.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 02:24 PM

Good site, Bill. Thanks.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 04:07 PM

Sentence without commas:

The company's repertoire will consist of light operas and musical comedies by Lehar, Gilbert and Sullivan, Friml and Rogers and Hammerstein.

Sentence with two commas:

The company's repertoire will consist of light operas, and, musical comedies by Lehar, Gilbert and Sullivan, Friml and Rogers and Hammerstein.

The two commas are absolutely unnecessary.

Now bugger off like a good little fellow.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 04:31 PM

Nobody says that you should not boldly go anywhere. You are just not allowed to ...

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: meself
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 04:44 PM

The trouble with appealing or referring (or refering) to authorities such as the Grammar Guide linked above is that the authorities are not always right, and do not always agree among themselves. The Grammar Guide, for example, allows only 'Mr.' and 'Mrs.' as abbreviations for 'Mister' and 'Missus', while Fowler gives 'Mr' and 'Mrs' (and I'm a Fowler man all the way!). In the end, you have to make grammatical decisions on the basis of your understanding of convention and tradition tempered with your sense of clarity and logic.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 04:52 PM

Q - Look up the serial or Oxford comma. More common in American English but required in some British styles, including the Oxford University Press. I find it very helpful in grouping together what should be grouped. If you use the comma in this way it is neither right nor wrong but, if you do not, it can become confusing to some. I am a great believer in trying to ensure everyone gets the same meaning, so I will try to use the comma. Even it is superfluous, it is not wrong.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 05:07 PM

If I were quite as ignorant as you, Mr Q, I should try to keep the fact to myself, rather than blazoning here for all to see.

And innumerate ~~ your 'sentence with no commas' actually contains two; the one 'with two' contains three: also appears to purport to reproduce mine, which certainly doesn't contain the first one [after an 'and', yet!] in your version. Can't even count; certainly can't punctuate: and comes here trying to throw his weight about with me!

I fear you are a trifle confused, my dear ~~ as well as more than a trifle stupid. I should try a day in bed with a cold compress on the forehead if I were you.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 05:56 PM

It is usually, though not always, the case that where to place commas when writing can be guided by how the sentence would be spoken aloud. If you make a slight pause or change in inflection, it is a good place to use a comma.

Now, in the above sentence I wondered if I should put a comma either before or after 'that'. I have known those who would put one in both cases. I just wonder how they would speak the sentence. I, myself, would possibly use a comma after 'that' (It is usually, though not always, the case that, where to place commas when writing...).

It certainly can be a delicate matter of context and personal style, although basic rules always apply.

(Yes, it is also true that the use of "I, myself,.." can be debated. No doubt there are opinions.)

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 10:00 AM

Any regular catter who could call Q ignorant or stupid is probably full of beer.
==============
In the original post, Dave asked, "Anyone got any good rules we should stick to to (to too, too to, tutu?) avoid misunderstandings of the type we often get here?"

Yes, I have such a rule: Don't drink and type.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 10:38 AM

What I've found most interesting over they years is the way that one's punctuation habits reflect one's personal writing style. Having corrected thousands of pupils' essays during my career as a teacher, I was always struck by their individuality, demonstrated by such things as use of many commas or none, exclamation marks etc. The latter are particularly revealing. If one has ever read books by Enid Blyton (and they can be very nostalgic of those halcyon days in the fifties) one must have noticed the veritable plethora of exclamation marks, not necessarily called for. They rather irritate, I find. Arthur Marshall (as I pointed out above) is very fond of commas followed or preceded by 'and'. Some highly successful authors hardly use punctuation at all. So my point is, one shouldn't be snobby about it; it's a matter of personal preference.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 10:45 AM

Over THE year. Sorry about the typo. Fingers stiff again today. (Cold wind outside and we haven't enough oil left to put the heating on!)

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 11:42 AM

leeneia ~~ As I have mentioned many times before, I don't drink beer, or any other alcoholic drink, and have not done so for the last 12 years. I just realised that I don't actually like it much.

If Q is so squeaky clean, then why did he choose to be so rude and aggressive to me, taking me up on the accuracy [when it wasn't inaccurate] of a statement of mine which was manifestly only intended to illustrate a point of punctuation anyway. I say again, he was stupidly manifesting ignorance.

I am sorry if he is a great and respected friend of yours; but, speaking personally, I should at present feel quite happy if we played a little game whereby Q goes away to hide and nobody goes to look for him.

Regards
~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 10:44 AM

All right, then.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 01:13 PM

I think it should be "All, right then." :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 03:37 PM

There were fifty one hundred year old eggs in the nest.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 04:35 PM

Bodes well for my ability to have kids in the future...

The "and" commas would seem awkward to me. I think we could find more stupider things to fight about than that, though.
yeah, I know: "more stupider". I was being funny.

Comma Chameleon

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: meself
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 12:38 AM

I believe that would be "more, stupider, things to fight about".

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 05:38 AM

The use of the double comparative or superlative [as in "more stupider", "most highest", &c] is now regarded as taulogously incorrect, but formerly, in Early Modern English [from about 16 to early-18 Cs], was commonly, and correctly, used for emphasis. Examples will be found in Shakspere.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 09:34 AM

As was the double negative, and even triple or quadruple negative.

No, nay, never
No, nay, never no more

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 01:46 PM

> grouping together what should be grouped.

Exactly. And in an especially long or potentially confusing series, add semicolons where needed.

> No, nay, never
No, nay, never no more

In syntactical terms, that's just one negative expressed six or seven times. It's called "emphasis." The point is that in a case like this, each negative statement is understood by itself, not as part of some grammatical equation that could be *imagined* to contradict itself logically, like "I ain't never done it."

Even a triple negative in English is pretty hard to construct. The Internet example attributed to Groucho Marx is no triple negative at all, because it means *exactly* what it says: "I can't say that I don't disagree with you." It's no more a "triple" than "I don't disagree with you" is a "double."

The test is that a nonstandard double negative means, in a usually forced literal interpretation, the opposite of what everybody would ordinarily understand it to mean:
"You ain't no authority!"

Adding "No way! No how!" would be logically acceptable, because they wouldn't alter the meaning, any more than would "No indeed! Not at all!"

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 02:01 PM

Learning something new all the time. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: Janie
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 03:15 PM

I'll just keep on with my typos and poor punctuation - can't seem to proofread effectively anymore - or spell either.

Used to be very proper at both - product of being a policy writer for several years. Now it seems I'm no good at either.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 05:02 PM

Just like me, Janie. I find my fingers get stiff and this silly little laptop isn't easy to use. But the real culprit is Age! The older I get, the more mistakes I make.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grandma
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 08:07 PM

The older I get, the more mistakes I see :-).

I used to be able to proofread, too. Saw some of the same mistakes so often I memorized them. Now, I use them. Instead of giving up writing I've given up proofreeding. If they can't take a joke . . . .