Tam Lin (Child #39-I)

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 05:04 PM

And yet Lord Randal is one of the most widespread ballads and not just in the English-speaking world. It must have something going for it! One man's meat eh?

Of course there is no evidence that the Geste was ever sung or even recited. Perhaps it was just a collection of rhymed stories after all!

And anyway fashions change over the centuries. I can't imagine anyone attempting to sing it today.

As for making sense, I have never had much of a problem with the sense in the vast majority of ballads, even those that have been worn down to the bare bones. Tam Lin has always made wonderful sense to me, even in some of the concocted versions. It's one of my all-time favourites.

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I)
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 04:56 PM

should read, i agree there are some good songs , but not gest of robyn hoode and not that interminable bore lord randall

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I)
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 04:26 PM

correct,Steve, glad to see you are watching like the Skibbereen Eagle. the bristow tragedie [not bristol],or the death of sir charles bawdin,is by thomas chatterton1752 to 1770 text 1772 edition.
I agree there are some good songs, gest of robin hood, is child and is that interminable bore, lord randall.

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 02:00 PM

Yes, Dick, I'd even say more than a few, but Child didn't set out to include any ballads on grounds of quality, although, like you he made it obvious when he did include stuff he thought was rubbish. His intention from the off was to be as inclusive as possible, warts and all. Most of us seem to agree though that despite this he just about got everything in there that was wonderful and available to him. I don't remember any of the Bristol Tragedies being in Child but you obviously have a different edition to me.

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I)
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 01:26 PM

Grump, grump, grumpty grump. But good points all the same Soldier

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I)
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 12:32 PM

most forms of pop music are only 3 minutes of tedium.

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 09:46 AM

And how does that differ from most other forms of pop music?

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I)
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 06:14 PM

Sense?
a few of them are little better than nonsense, lord randall[ tedious drivel on a par with american pie]
hugh of lincoln anti semitic propoganda, bonny george campbell, a fragment, what happened next did he start a soup factory?
a gest of robin hood, Robin displays a poor sense of humour,SINGULARLY LONG WINDED AND NOT FUNNY., no wonder nobody sings it, dreadful fare, rather like being made to eat mcdonalds food for ten minutes non stop.
the bristow tragedie 100 verses of my noble liege and not much action, a number are very poor indeed.

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 04:26 PM

Yes, that makes sense too.

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 03:14 PM

The truth you'll tell to me, Tamlane, a word.
You must not lie.
Have you ever been in a holy chapel
or blessed by Christianity?

I'm pretty sure it's "a word ye mauna lie", all one phrase. Also "sained in Christentie", not 'by'. So I'd say it's

The truth you'll tell to me, Tamlane,
You must not lie, not even a word
Were you ever in a holy chapel
or consecrated as a Christian?

My impression is that 'sained' is quite a strong word - 'sanctified' or 'made holy'. Which is what the sacrament of baptism does: it makes the baptisee holy by admitting him/her to Christianity.

The truth I'll tell to you, Janet, a word.
I will not lie.
A (human) knight fathered me and a (human) lady bore me,
just as a knight and a lady did thee.

Again, I'd go for

The truth I'll tell to you, Janet,
I will not lie, not even a word.

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 02:32 PM

And most of them made far more sense than American Pie.

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I)
From: Brian Peters
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 01:11 PM

> Why do people refer to songs as "Child Ballads" anyway, he didnt compose ANY of them it's like saying "I've just learnt The Now That's What I Call Music song 35/20 American Pie"

Except that the vast majority of the Child Ballads had anonymous composers.

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 12:45 PM

Hi, domjohnson. I majored in English, and I love questions like yours. Here are the verses and what they mean in modern English.

'Sain' is a verb meaning to bless or consecrate or to make the sign of the cross. related to 'sign.'

'The truth ye'll tell to me, Tamlane,
       A word ye mauna lie;
       Gin eer ye was in haly chapel,
       Or sained in Christentie?'

The truth you'll tell to me, Tamlane, a word.
You must not lie.
Have you ever been in a holy chapel
or blessed by Christianity? (she probably means "Have you ever been   baptized?")
=========================

39I.27       'The truth I'll tell to thee, Janet,
       A word I winna lie;
       A knight me got, and a lady me bore,
       As well as they did thee.

The truth I'll tell to you, Janet, a word.
I will not lie.
A (human) knight fathered me and a (human) lady bore me,
just as a knight and a lady did thee.
=============

       Randolph, Earl Murray, was my sire,
       Dunbar, Earl March, is thine;
       We loved when we were children small,
       Which yet you well may mind.

Randolph, the Earl of Murray, was my father,
Dunbar, Earl of March, is yours.
We loved (were affectionate) when we were small children,
as you may still recall.
==============
Whatya think?

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39I)
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 04:24 PM

"*Any* listener," Jack?

Not all listeners are as analytical as we are. And it's harder to pick up subtleties in a sung ballad than in the same ballad seen on a page, where you can look again and again.

Most theater-goers were presumably surprised when the witch's prophecies came true in the way they did. That's entertainment!

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39I)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 03:49 PM

39 I is from Scott's Minstrelsy and therefore any awkward syntax like this is probably Scott's own. Child often gives versions from Scott's manuscripts in the later appendixes so it's worth having a look at the later versions in volume 5 to see the originals that Scott used to concoct this version. However a further warning is that some of the versions in his manuscripts were sent by people who had been concocting themselves. If this is of no interest to you as a performer, just ignore it.

Another useful pointer is that if you can't find these personal names in any other version then they are even more likely Scott's inventions as he was fond of changing/adding in historical characters.

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39I)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 11:08 AM

Conspiracy theorists (but few others) will note that he doesn't really answer Janet's question, does he?

That kind of attention to the fine print had been a literary commonplace since Macbeth was promised that no man born of woman could kill him. Any listener would conclude that Tam was weaseling around the question.

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39I)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:42 AM

It's Child 39 version I, not 391. Child didn't compose any of them, as per the title "The English and Scottish POPULAR Ballads", but that in no way denigrates his importance as a scholar and anthologist. It's out of respect for Child's monumental efforts in compiling these ballads, in all their known variants, together with Continental analogues, folk tale variants etc that we call them Child ballads.

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39I)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 08:44 AM

"hy do people refer to songs as "Child Ballads""
Child identified 305 songs as being 'ballads' and numbered them so the various versions could be identified and compared.
It is an invaluable reference number to those wishing to study them.
Malcolm Laws did the same with Native and Anglo-American ballads
More recently, Steve Roud has done the same with pretty near all folk songs.
It really has made a great number of people's lives a great deal easier
A toast to them all.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39I)
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 08:22 AM

To "sain" meant to "protect or bless with a ritual sign (as of the Cross)."

Janet is asking if he's a Christian. Tam Lin replies, "Not only that! My parents were of the local nobility! Remember?"

Conspiracy theorists (but few others) will note that he doesn't really answer Janet's question, does hie?

"Christendom to see" hardly suggests "passing away." It could be an attempt to make sense of an unfamiliar "sained in Christentie," or, along with being in a holy chapel, it could simply mean "have you ever been in church and are you familiar with Christianity?" (Which in context seems to imply only, "Are you really a Christian?")

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39I)
From: GUEST,Janey
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 08:12 AM

How can it be 391 when there were only 305 in the collection? Why do people refer to songs as "Child Ballads" anyway, he didnt compose ANY of them it's like saying "I've just learnt The Now That's What I Call Music song 35/20 American Pie"

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39I)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 08:06 AM

I go along with Susan's analysis.
I recommend that you read through Child's copious notes on the ballad (E.& S. P. B. vol 1) where he gives an analysis of the plot and a fascinating tour though its European analogues.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39I)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 08:04 AM

Seems to me that 39I.28 is just reiterating the point, stressed in the other two verses, that he is of human noble birth, also that they were obviously well acquainted before he was whizzed off to Fairyland.

Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39I)
From: Susan of DT
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:57 AM

That first verse, it sounds to me, as you suggested, that she is asking whether he is human and Christian, rather than an elf or other supernatural being. The second seems to be saying that he is human and noble. The third gives his parentage and says that she knew him as a child.

Subject: Tam Lin (Child #39I)
From: GUEST,domjohnson
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:28 AM

Hello!

So, I've been trying to wade through child ballad 39I - a particularly unusual version of Tam Lin - for a while and thought maybe I should ask here for some interpretations of some of the verses, particularly these three:

        That we got us between?
39I.26        'The truth ye'll tell to me, Tamlane,
        A word ye mauna lie;
        Gin eer ye was in haly chapel,
        Or sained in Christentie?'
39I.27        'The truth I'll tell to thee, Janet,
        A word I winna lie;
        A knight me got, and a lady me bore,
        As well as they did thee.
39I.28        'Randolph, Earl Murray, was my sire,
        Dunbar, Earl March, is thine;
        We loved when we were children small,
        Which yet you well may mind.

In the first of the three, the last two lines are a complete puzzle to me - I know essentially no Scots dialect (basing the rest of the interpretations from what I know of today's North-Eastern dialect which is, of course, very different) so trying to untangle what it means is difficult. Is Janet asking if he is a supernatural being (Another version has this as "If eer ye were in holy chapel//Or christendom did see" which would suggest passing away).

As for the last two, I am struggling quite a bit so any interpretations are appreciated. I'm not sure the very last appears in other versions, hence the difficulty!


Many thanks (and I hope you all find these interesting)

Dom.