Bacup Nuters and Racism

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 01:25 PM

Vic, I'm very interested in all you write. I've come to the conclusion that W African black people have no experience of the type of racism one gets/used to get in South Africa or here in Europe. My husband is just like your friend Lamin. He just doesn't see the problem. I stupidly explained about the 'n' word and ('honky' for white) and he thinks it's tremendously funny to bellow at our front door when he gets home,"'ello darleeng! Your N***** ees 'ome! 'ow ees my 'onky doing?" People over the other side of our road can surely hear it and I hide my face in shame. But black people born here are far more aware of the undercurrents of recent history and more sensitive to implied insults.
I'm coming round to the fact that some may indeed be upset by black-face Morris etc. I wouldn't want that for them, so I wonder what can be done about it? A disclaimer sign displayed before the dance? Maybe if they could get some actually-black dancers it would prove there's no prejudice (which I'm sure there isn't.)

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 12:39 PM

I seem to have been overtaken by events.

"I meant no offence towards the people of Lewes"

Really?

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 12:18 PM

Jim Carroll
What the Firle people did was wrong
I know Jim. I said so myself.

which was my only point here
No it wasn't. You were convinced that it happened in Lewes (you read it in The Times) and by some sort of twisted logic you are still trying to hold "the good people of Lewes" responsible. In fact you have now extended the guilt to the entire administrative unit of Lewes District which seems a trifle arbitrary. You have stopped short of taking in the whole county which must be a relief to Eastbourne, Hastings, Battle, Robertsbridge and all the other towns and villages with bonfire societies in East Sussex.

I didn't say that the reasons made it acceptable. You seem to think they plucked the idea out of thin air. They did not. They had their reasons; they just made the wrong response to those reasons. Earlier you said "You mentioned "reasons" for the caravan burning - I would be fascinated to learn what they were." Now you refuse to contemplate the possibility. "No need for a trial. Guilty as Hell. You can tell by the look of them. String 'em up."

are you suggesting that because Miltown did it - it's ok in West(sic) Sussex - is that your "reason"?
No, I'm accusing you of double standards. When looking for examples of racism in modern society you ignored the incident on you own doorstep which caused real problems for a real family and went instead for a symbolic act which did no actual harm to anyone in an obscure East Sussex village and then tried to blame it on people who had nothing to do with it.

At least have a look at this article http://www.theguardian.com/society/2003/nov/16/raceintheuk.uknews. rest assured that it is hostile to Firle Bonfire Society and bonfire in general in fact, it seems to rather have it in for Sussex. It does, however, look at the whole issue.

The point I am trying to make or rather the question I am asking is what is the difference between blaming the the entire population of a town (now extended to an administrative district) for the actions of twelve people and blaming all Islam for the actions of the extremists? You continue to avoid answering.

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 11:06 AM

Another memory stirred by this is also from our frequent visits to The Gambia where attitudes towards racial differences are very different from PC Great Britain.
I have another great friend in The Gambia, Lamin, and I am frequently in his company. When he is introducing me to people I haven't met before, he takes delight in throwing his arm around my neck and saying, "Have you met my brother?" When he gets a puzzled look, he says, "Yes, he's my real brother, the only difference is..... (dramatic pause).... I was born at night and he was born during the day!" Much laughter, arm-punching and High Fives.

I am never quite sure how to react to this but can anyone imagine such a thing happening in the UK?

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 10:54 AM

Thanks for the fillers-inners Vic and Henry - I watched a report of it on televiseion - where it was referred to as happening in Lewes, and I read couple of news items on it later.
I am fully aware of the 'ethnic cleansing' level of hatred towards Travellers, both in Britain and in Ireland and tend to react badly towards it - as I do with suggestions that there might be a "reason" for that level of hatred to wards any other group of human beings.
I meant no offence towards the people of Lewes - must rethink my planned holiday in Furles!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 10:52 AM

Eliza wrote -
" Actually, any African child lucky enough to be given a doll (not many I admit!) is presented with a white one."

Last month, whilst we were in The Gambia, we were invited to a birthday party of a seven year old girl. I asked her dad, a good friend of Sherrifo's, what she would like as a present and he said she wanted a doll. We scoured the large markets in Brikama and Serrekunda for a black doll without seeing one.
Every doll had European coloured skin and European features. Every doll was stamped "Made In China" (which made me wonder about the dolls sold in the Far East.)
Soon after being given it, she took her party blouse off and was pretending to feed it. Everyone at the party was amused and I remember wondering if this action would cause some embarrassment at an English party.

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 10:31 AM

As has been pointed out, the "Pikey Caravan" incident took place in Firle and it happened early in the Bonfire Season - each village has their own weekend date. As a result of this incident the Firle Bonfire Society was banned from taking part in the main Lewes celebrations.
Word went around that the rougher element from Firle would be out to disrupt the Lewes celebrations that year but I don't think anything came of it.
I can remember a few shouts of "Nobody likes us, we don't care - we're Firle!" but compared with the same chant from a Millwall football crowd it sounded pathetic.

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 10:31 AM

Well, having read all the posts on here it looks like The BCND have there feet fairly well planted in Lancashire in the middle of the 19C. And it looks to me like an influence from Blackface Minstrelsy is considerably more likely than some idea of disguise from ealy folk customs.

Are they racist. I don't think so. But some people are made uncomfortable and some are offended by this practice in a public entertainment.

Will the BCND or the Border Morris know or care of our discussion? Almost certainly not.

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 10:20 AM

One of my wife's favourite dolls, as a child, was a black doll called black Betty. Mind you, she also had one called bald-headed bugger. Not sure what that says about her...

:D

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 10:18 AM

"it isn't too long ago that the good people of Lewes were burning a caravan full of 'Pikeys' at their annual bonfire festival."

No, Jim. Travellers/Gypsies were chosen as the the Enemies of the Bonfire at the bonfire in Firle in 2003. A caravan was decorated with images of them and then burnt.

This article gives an insight into the bonfire at Firle.

Bonfire at Firle

A burning issue in the village; The Bonfire Night torching of a Gypsy caravan effigy, and the arrests of 12 Sussex villagers on race hate charges, are the latest twists in a long-running conflict, reports Mark Townsend

The Observer, Sunday 16 November 2003

Post Script

Twelve members of the bonfire society were accused of inciting racial hatred after the event in 2003. In July 2004, the Crown Prosecution Service found insufficient evidence for a prosecution after the arrests.

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 10:13 AM

What a wonderful post, Vic. He sounds rather like my husband (a Senoufo, also very black)
I watched Pig Dyke Molly at Whittlesea Straw Bear one year, and their make-up is interesting because it's black AND white in roughly equal measures!
I'm afraid I rather like golliwogs (terrible name, I know) because I had one as a small child, and must have knitted dozens for other children. I suppose this is a no-no too. Actually, any African child lucky enough to be given a doll (not many I admit!) is presented with a white one. I asked my husband why they don't want a black one, which can easily be obtained, and he replied that they'd be disappointed - white dolls are much preferred!

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 09:58 AM

Each year from 2004 to 2007, we organised British tours for the great Gambian kora player, Jali Sherrifo Konteh, a musician and person that I have the highest regard for. He is a Manding which must be amongst the blackest of the African ethnic groups. When we are in one another's countries we are both concerned to show one another our traditional cultures so I was delighted to take him to a Bonfire night in Lewes which he loved.
We were also very pleased to have him booked into Tenterden Folk Festival and amongst his heavy schedule, I was able to take him to see the dance displays. On came a very energetic Border Morris side.
"Why do they black their faces, Vic?"
I remember thinking that I would have handle this carefully and I answered, "It's to disguise themselves and to make them all look alike."
"Ah yes," he answered, "Do you remember when I took you to see all those Fula men dancing in that ceremony at Busara? They covered their faces with white river mud. I think they do that for the same reason."
He watched their loud and energetic dances for a while and then asked, "Who is the wildest and the loudest, the Fulas or these people?"
"Not much in it." I answered.
As we walked away, he put on his mock-serious face and pointed a finger at me, (This always means that he has silly comment ready.)
"Look at your watch, It has got a black face. Mine has got a white face." As frequently happens when we are together, we collapsed laughing in each others' arms.

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 09:29 AM

Seconded

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 08:53 AM

Good discussion BTW - apart from one or two obvious spats. Thanks for starting it, Fred and thanks to all who kept it civil and interesting.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 08:46 AM

What the hell is your point Bryan -
What the Firle people did was wrong - which was my only point here - it was part of their bonfire celebrations and it was an example of what can happen when bigotry takes hold of innocent ceremonies
I do't damn well care where it was and who did it - it was wrong - you suggested "reasons" for what happened - there could be no possible "reason" for such behaviour which I would find acceptable - what are yours?
I know about the shameful Miltown incident - as a resident here for only a year, I was one of those who stood up at a public meeting and condemned it - are you suggesting that because Miltown did it - it's ok in West Sussex - is that your "reason"?
Is not Firle part of the Lewes district - have I read that wrong
I saw the photographs at the time, and I read some of the shouted taunts about "Pikeys" from onlookers - invented.
Such behaviour is racist hatred, it's unacceptable whether it happened in Sussex, in Miltown or on Ursa Major
It's wrong, and you should be ashamed of yourself by suggesting there might be a "reason" for it.
It was a bloody disgrace
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 08:22 AM

Bryan
Jim Carroll
The bonfire took place in the Lewes District

Why stop there Jim? There are bonfire societies all over East Sussex. Why not condemn the whole county while you are at it?

and the organises allowed exactly what I said they did - the burning caravan was cheered loudly by watching crowds, who added comments of their own,

Really? That rather contrasts with this -
Residents of East Sussex village were shocked and horrified after a caravan with effigies of Gypsies was burnt at a village bonfire party organized by the Firle Bonfire Society. http://veshengro.tripod.com/id61.html Not a site that is likely to be biased towards the bonfire society.

For all your bluster - and whether it appeared in The Sun, The Times, or Blackpool's, 'Billy's Weekly Liar' - it is a fact,
Do I have to keep reminding you that your original statement was -
it isn't too long ago that the good people of Lewes were burning a caravan full of 'Pikeys' at their annual bonfire festival.?
You said your "facts" came from The Times. Not a word in that statement is true.

Lewes is not in a position to disassociate itself from what went on.
Why not? The only people who knew what the tableau would be before it appeared were the 12 members of the bonfire committee who made the decision and built it. To return to my original question which you have craftily avoided, why is this any different from holding Islam as a whole responsible for the Twin Towers or the murder of Lee Rigby?

I mentioned it because it was a public (whatever) and such events need to be monitored and should be liable to Britain's laws wherever they take place.
Monitored by who? All the bonfire societies are independant organisations. Nobody has authority over them. Of course they are liable to Britain's laws. All twelve were arrested. The fact that, in the end, I don't think they weren't prosecuted was up to the police or the CPS not "the good people of Lewes".

I have musician friends living in Sussex who won't go near the bonfires because of what they describe as the "sectarian" events they witnessed when they did attend.
But by your logic, if any of them live in Lewes they are still culpable simply by virtue of living in Lewes.

You mentioned "reasons" for the caravan burning - I would be fascinated to learn what they were.
As you said "the details are still fully accessible on the internet". If you are really interested, put in some effort and find out. You could start with the link I gave above. What the Firle Bonfire Society did was terribly wrong and terribly stupid but to fail to find out the full circumstances stinks of the lynch mob.

I was instrumental in preventing a planned petrol bomb attack on a caravan site full of Traveller men, women and children in the 1980s and I have since been told and seen the result of a number of these attacks - not a thing to promote as far as I'm concerned, and certainly not a thing to appease considering the position Britain and Ireland's Traveller population find themselves in today.

You might be interested to know that an unnofficial caravan site existed about half a mile from the village for several years after the event and there is an official site with full facilities about a mile away. I have never heard of a travellers' caravan being burnt in the Lewes area. Burning people alive went out of fashion around here after 1557.

I am glad you included Ireland above. Perhaps ypu should get your own house in order before slagging off places you've never been and know little about.
http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail2003120200193#N2

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: GUEST,Dazbo at Work
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 08:21 AM

There's a quote some where (on an EFDSS CD) where you can hear William Kimber saying that without women the morris would have died out - I take that to mean that the women knew the dances well enough to preserve them and therefore must have danced them.

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 08:18 AM

Kiss - brilliant Dave

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 08:16 AM

I think Kiss style make-up would work :-) In fact, thinking about it, our 'Miser' for the pace egg play had a black and white pattern which was very effective. I have often wondered though if some of the revivals chose black or black/white makeup because that is what they had a photograph of :-) Does anyone really know what colours were used when referring to a monochrome photo?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 08:11 AM

Couldn't agree more Dave. If people can change the gender of the performers, the kit, the tunes, the instruments why not the colour their faces?

Best wishes

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 06:35 AM

Are the Sisters still based in or around Salford, Les? My daughters were interested at one time. Ironmen and Severn Gilders are (or were - not seen them for years) both brilliant individually but when they danced together it was wonderful. I have never really understood this male only tradition business and am more than glad it seems to have fell by the wayside in most places.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Bacup Nutters and Racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 06:28 AM

Good points Matt. I think the most depressing thing is many who blackup would revel in being excluded.

I could be wrong, as ever, but I don't think their is any evidence, not that has anything to do with the folkie view of historical evidence, of women dancing Rapper. But go and see Sisterinarms Rapper


Sisters

You will be pushed to see a more exciting performance of this fine old (?) tradition (?). It's a Living Tradition - make it live

Best wishes

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 06:18 AM

Yeah, really "wonderful". Verbatim, obviously.

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: MartinRyan
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 06:08 AM

I'm just repeating, pretty much verboten...

Wonderful!

Regards

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 05:43 AM

I have seen the Chiarini family mentioned before for their stage cocoa-nut dance. The press report quoted is very interesting because it talks about people imitating them....
Last Saturday, the Nutters danced on the stage of the Royal Court Theatre in Bacup - a (presumably) Victorian building, past its best, now being renovated by volunteers.... oh to have a list of all the acts that performed on that stage over the years....

The fact remains, that the Nutters:
a. don't actually use coconuts.
b. perform 5 garland dances - clearly derived from 5 figures of the quadrille.
c. conform to a street performance format that is clearly linked to the region's morris dance tradition.

Derek

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 04:43 AM

Just for the record, it wasn't a mate's comment per se: I'm just repeating, pretty much verboten, things he's said in the past (about Julianne Hough, about Robert Downey Jnr and other things)

I don't think anyone's suggesting Bacup Nutters ought to be banned, but I do think you'd end up hearing precisely that were they to become more prominent: eg performing at the Royal Festival Hall, appearing on the X Factor or something.

There was morris dancing featured in the 2012 Olympics opening ceremony shenanigans. Can anyone really imagine the BBC would have let blackface morris be featured?

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 04:18 AM

I did see it, Les, but was very remiss in not acknowledging it. Thanks for doing so and I add my thanks to Lynn for a very insightful posting.

I find it quite significant that the mention was made as early as 1838 - Pre-dating the popularity of Minstrelsy. Maybe both Minstrelsy and the English black face tradition had the same roots but went their own separate ways on opposite sides of the pond? Whether that root was racist or not is lost in the mists of time but as no-one knows maybe it does not really matter?

I am also grateful for Matt's friend's comment. If a single person finds it offensive or distasteful then we do need to review it. I am not saying it should be stopped but maybe we should be more sensitive? However, as we have had anecdotes of black people both finding it distasteful and enjoying it maybe we should just let those who enjoy it enjoy it and those who do not enjoy it ignore it. But let us make sure is does not turn into a major contention or a political tool!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 04:01 AM

It's intrestin that nobody so far has commented on what is clearly the most imortant post on this thread:

"Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Lynn W - PM
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 09:21 PM

There are many references in nineteenth century newspapers to "cocoa nut" dances being performed as part of theatrical or musical entertainments. There are references to the performers being blacked up and using the coconuts as castanets. I believe the original ones were intended as copies of East Indies dances but I don't have the reference for that to hand at the moment. Here is an extract from Home News section of the Bradford Observer November 22 1838-
"The Chiarini Family, in their admirable Cocoa-Nut Dance, seem likely to become as popular here as they were at Halifax. The following is copied from the Halifax paper. "The Cocoa-Nut Dance has now been performed four weeks, and it appears likely to run another four - it is a most decided hit. At every street corner in Halifax, and in every bye lane in the country, young men and children may be observed imitating the grotesque features of the Cocoa-Nut Ballet, and it is ten to one that out of 20 lads whom you meet whistling in the streets, 19 have the Cocoa-Nut tune in their mouths.""

Thanks Lynn

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 03:54 AM

We've been to Morris events for years, all over our region, but we've never ever seen a black or Asian person among the spectators. My husband often says he's the only black chap there. Having considered the above posts, I'm now wondering if they do indeed feel uncomfortable or insulted by the blacked-up Border or Molly dancers? If so, I can only say we've been overwhelmed many a time by the determined attempts by Morris folk to make my husband feel welcome. He's been hugged, photographed in his African outfit, invited to dance (which he does!) and generally treated like visiting Royalty. He absolutely loves it, and has had tears in his eyes more than once. There is absolutely NO racism to be found, in our experience. But maybe this is a rather rosy picture?

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 03:39 AM

That is probably good advice; but there might be more than one view as to the desirability of the necessity for it.

~M~

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 03:16 AM

"The point about Bacup is that, despite the blacking up, I have never ever heard a racist comment there. Neither have I seen anyone, dancer or audience, do anything which could in any way be considered racist. For me, racism is a dead issue where Bacup is concerned"

i know someone (who happens to be black) who would say the Bacup Nutters wearing of black facepaint is racist. He would say, and regularly does, that all instances of white people wearing black facepaint is irredeemably racist.

Because all instances of white people wearing black facepaint is too close to racist blackface traditions of the 20th century for comfort. Plain and simple. The intentions of the people doing that are neither here nor there for him, they're an irrelevance.

One point made above in response to one of Eliza's comments – that we don't know how many people who, when faced by blackface morris simply turn away sadly shaking their heads rather than making 'formal complaints' - is a very good one. Most of the people I know - whether black or white - who might find this sort of thing crass or distasteful wouldn't make 'formal complaints' cos they are radicals who cherish freedom of speech and go more for protest and direct confrontation than appeals to the local council.

Me, I think it's fine as a local tradition, but I wouldn't advise any blackface morris troupes to perform in public around Tottenham or Brixton.

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 02:45 AM

"Should be interested to see any authentic quote from any authorised UKIP "
Covered in full on the BBC (Northern Ireland) news report last night - I'm sure it's traceable.
Wonder if you saw the series of statements put up by Ukip nutter(nothing to do with coconuts or dancing) politicians, including parliamentary candidates for forthcoming elections , about Europeans, emigrants and women in general.
There are overtures being made at present by French fascist, Marine Le'Penn, to get Ukip to join her in her new 'European alliance of (fascist) organisations) - she is tipped as being a future French prime minister.
Bryan
The bonfire took place in the Lewes District and the organises allowed exactly what I said they did - the burning caravan was cheered loudly by watching crowds, who added comments of their own,
For all your bluster - and whether it appeared in The Sun, The Times, or Blackpool's, 'Billy's Weekly Liar' - it is a fact, and the details are still fully accessible on the internet; Lewes is not in a position to disassociate itself from what went on.
I mentioned it because it was a public (whatever) and such events need to be monitored and should be liable to Britain's laws wherever they take place.
I have musician friends living in Sussex who won't go near the bonfires because of what they describe as the "sectarian" events they witnessed when they did attend.
You mentioned "reasons" for the caravan burning - I would be fascinated to learn what they were.
I was instrumental in preventing a planned petrol bomb attack on a caravan site full of Traveller men, women and children in the 1980s and I have since been told and seen the result of a number of these attacks - not a thing to promote as far as I'm concerned, and certainly not a thing to appease considering the position Britain and Ireland's Traveller population find themselves in today.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 01:40 AM

"black and Asian people, however, have to live with and do not deserve the systematic attacks which are heaped on them by the BNP and UKIP" - F McCormick
.,,.

Should be interested to see any authentic quote from any authorised UKIP spokie making any point that could be remotely thus interpreted as an "attack" {"systematic" or otherwise} on black & Asian people.

What you on about, Fred?

~M~

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 10:27 PM

"It is the same whether they are burning Osama bin Laden, Margaret Thatcher, or Postman Pat"

I agree with the first two.

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Lynn W
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 09:21 PM

There are many references in nineteenth century newspapers to "cocoa nut" dances being performed as part of theatrical or musical entertainments. There are references to the performers being blacked up and using the coconuts as castanets. I believe the original ones were intended as copies of East Indies dances but I don't have the reference for that to hand at the moment. Here is an extract from Home News section of the Bradford Observer November 22 1838-
"The Chiarini Family, in their admirable Cocoa-Nut Dance, seem likely to become as popular here as they were at Halifax. The following is copied from the Halifax paper. "The Cocoa-Nut Dance has now been performed four weeks, and it appears likely to run another four - it is a most decided hit. At every street corner in Halifax, and in every bye lane in the country, young men and children may be observed imitating the grotesque features of the Cocoa-Nut Ballet, and it is ten to one that out of 20 lads whom you meet whistling in the streets, 19 have the Cocoa-Nut tune in their mouths.""

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 05:01 PM

Sorry, I forgot to put my monicker on that discourse about Lewes and orangeism and folk and fascism.

In any event, I will be away from my computer for the next few days, so I won't be able to participate in this discussion until I come back.

I'd love to know what The Times has got to do with any of this though. The paper which sparked this whole issue off was the Telegraph, which allegedly accused the local parliamentary Labour candidate of racism because he posed with two of the nutters.

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 04:55 PM

...and forgot to say -
Jim Carroll
I read it in The Times, BTW

Ah, yes. Sister paper of The Sun, part of the Murdoch stable.

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 04:55 PM

Snail. The archbishop's address might have been rabble rousing parody. I can only say that, as a Liverpool protestant (Yes, I know all about religious sectarianism. I've witnessed enough of it right here on the streets of my own city.), I found the speech extremely offensive.

"The bloke who told me" was the occupant of something called The Ulster Cottage. On that occasion, it was decked out in all the Orange bigotry of the day, and it had a loudspeaker which was pumping out Orange marching tunes, and it was open to the public. So I hardly think he qualified as a chance acquaintance.

"Burn the Jews". I did not mishear it. In fact both the people I'd travelled down with heard it, and were as offended as I. Moreover, this took place, not during the preamble, but while the effigy was burning. As you'll know, the effigy is stuffed with fireworks, and my humour was not helped one jot by the huge cheers which went up every time one of its limbs was blown off.

Dave Bland, who managed to cop a firework in the eye on that occasion, recorded the whole thing for Leader Sound. Perhaps the recording still survives.

I'll grant you the vast majority of the paricipants were probably just up for a good night out. However, what I heard and saw that night put me off the festival for ever.

Morris dancing. I've no desire to start a right wing bigots under the bed scare, especially as none of the morris dancers I have personally known would qualify as right wing bigots. However, I do think it's important to contextualise your comments. IE., it's as well to remember that Rolf Gardiner, yes the geezer who founded the Travelling Morrice, was a notorious Nazi and associate of Oswald Mosley. No, he wasn't typical of the Morris community, then or now, although I suspect most of his acolytes shared his views. Nevertheless, there has existed, practically ever since the word volkslieder was coined in the late eighteenth century, a vicious strain of far right nationalism, which has sought to portray various aspects of folklore as symbols of racial purity and superiority.

Which brings me onto my final point, namely the RWB episode of which you speak. It centred round a particular individual who plays the melodeon and is a card carrying member of the Britsh far right. The campaign of Internet harrassment which he conducted had as its sole aim, the destruction of Folk Against Fascism, which at that time was trying to prevent infiltration of the folk revival by the far right.

What's more I have good reason to believe that the campaign was not orchestrated solely by this creep. In fact, it was organised and authorised by some of the highest ranking members of the party. It's a standard tactic which they use to try and scare off anyone they deem to be their enemy, and they call the members who engage in these deeds Attack Dogs.

Yes, the vast majority of folkies are ordinary decent people, and no, Bacup isn't racist. But it's as well to keep a weather eye out now and again.

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 04:38 PM

Hi Derek - Primarily Eddie Cass, Peter Bearon, Geoff Hughes, being involved in a couple of other Lancashire traditions for a long time (Abram Pace Egg Play and Dance and, more recently, good old Google! Hope this helps.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 04:14 PM

Jim Carroll
Should have said
"people of Lewes were being entertained by the symbolic burning a caravan full of 'Pikeys' at their annual bonfire festival.

Perhaps you should, but you didn't, you said -
it isn't too long ago that the good people of Lewes were burning a caravan full of 'Pikeys' at their annual bonfire festival.

but then again, perhaps you shouldn't because, as I have already pointed out, this incident did not take place in Lewes and it did not take place during Lewes Bonfire.
A word of advice, don't call it a festival, you are likely to annoy the good people of Lewes. You know what will happen then? You will be declared an Enemy of Bonfire and blown up (not burnt), an honour which you will share with The Reverend Doctor Ian Paisley, the local traffic wardens and many others.

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 03:49 PM

Fred, I admit that there is much that is contentious about Lewes Bonfire but I have been going, on and off, for around forty years and your experience bears no resemblance to mine. You seem to have missed the point that the Archbishop's address is rabble rousing parody.
"the bloke I met who told me" er, right. Out of the Lewes population of around 16,000 rising to about 60,000 on Bonfire Night you met "a bloke". Right.
"Burn the Jews". I honestly think you must have misheard on this occasion. Let's face it, it's very noisy. The standard cry when they are about to burn the effigy is "What shall we do wuth him?", "BURN HIM!". It is the same whether they are burning Osama bin Laden, Margaret Thatcher, or Postman Pat.

A couple of years ago, a nasty piece of work caused a lot of trouble here, on Facebook and elsewhere which led to Morris dancers being condemned as right wing racist bigots. Please don't fall into the same trap. Try and be informed about the things you so easily criticise.

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 03:24 PM

Just thought that I should point out that the Bacup mutters dance on the day after Good Friday, and refer to that day as Easter Saturday, but several other people have pointed out to me that they refer to that day as Holy Saturday and that the following Saturday is, to them, Easter Saturday.
I don't want folks turning up next Saturday expecting to see the Nutters.

On a separate issue who is impersonating the Ancient Brtitons by painting their faces blue?

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 03:20 PM

Sorry Bryan
Should have said
"people of Lewes were being entertained by the symbolic burning a caravan full of 'Pikeys' at their annual bonfire festival.
I recall protests in the press - don't remember many from Lews - though I may have missed them
Maybe I was thrown by your "They had their reasons which you could find out if you were genuinely interested."
No excuse for that garbage, if they did it - I read it in The Times, BTW - one of the few English qualities we get over this side of the country.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 01:58 PM

In view of various postings I'd better make it clear that I am not advocating the retention of any and every custom purely out of a love of tradition. If a custom causes genuine offence to people, or for that matter involves unnecessary cruelty, then it should either be abandoned or drastically modified.

By people of course, I'm not including bankers or the aristocracy, or filthy rich capitalists who live off the backs of zero hours workers whilst avoiding tax by stacking their money where the chancellor can't get at it. They deserve whatever abuse they get. Ordinary black and Asian people, however, have to live with and do not deserve the systematic attacks which are heaped on them by the BNP and UKIP, and by one or two other political parties who are rather closer to the centre ground.

The point about Bacup is that, despite the blacking up, I have never ever heard a racist comment there. Neither have I seen anyone, dancer or audience, do anything which could in any way be considered racist.

For me, racism is a dead issue where Bacup is concerned, although I shall continue to fight it wherever it does rear its ugly head.

Oh, and I went to the Lewes bonfire festival once, many years ago and was disgusted. The mock bishop who advocated staying out of the Common Market (as it was then), because it was allegedly an evil Catholic influence, was bad enough. So too was the bloke I met who told me that "there's a terrible amount of papism in Liverpool. It needs a good determined Protestant effort to stamp it out". But the bit which turned me apoplectic came when they set fire to the Arab terrorist, and people started shouting "Burn the Jews".

(Sorry to go on like that, Vic. I'm sure most of the people in Lewes are as delightful as the town itself, and as delightful as you and Tina. But it would take a pretty determined pack of wild horses to drag me back there on bofire night.)

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 01:36 PM

Jim Carroll
I wasn't condemning them Brian - I was commenting on how innocent enjoyment can be hi-jacked for malicious purposes

No Jim, you said -
it isn't too long ago that the good people of Lewes were burning a caravan full of 'Pikeys' at their annual bonfire festival.

Pretty unequivocal.

Just a few things wrong with that. The incident didn't take place in Lewes, did not happen at Lewes Bonfire or even the same day and did not involve any residents of Lewes. No 'Pikeys' or anyone else were burnt. Where did you get your "facts" from? I gather the Daily Mail went big on the story. You are behaving just like the bigots you condemn. Never mind whether the story is true as long as it supports your prejudices.

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 12:33 PM

The mumming tradition - for want of a better word is an intrestin case here. Mummers across the UK have stuck to the old collected plays with St George ( possibly Turkish or Palestinian is if anybody knows or cares) kills a variety of Turks and such like whilst others have traded in George for just about anybody from Geofrey Boycot to Tony Benn and John Lennon and have slaughted half the villians from Lands End to wherever.

What seriuos historical research into folk traditions has shown is that they change and evolve over time and so we call this the living tradition. I hope it continues to evolve. I would like to see more Sikh drummers in folky events - they certainly added some guts to The Imagined Village.

Sensitivity has been mentioned a few times here abouts. Somebody said to me down The Beech - don't you sing a lot of beery songs - I wasn't aware of this. In a singaround a few weeks ago a choir turned up by chance and we swapped songs back and forward - us and then them and so on. Great fun. I think it would be fair to say the womens choir in question were mostly younger than me and gay. I sang whatever and somewhere about my third contribution I realised that I was a 67 year old bald man singing songs about making love to young women.

Nobody commented and the atmosphere remained very cordial but I felt vaguely uneasy.

Why are Irish jokes so simple? It's so the English can understand them.

Finally on the point Eliza made about waiting for Black People to complain. Nobody knows the colour of our skin on here or how many black people have simply walked away from Blackface morris without comment?

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 12:07 PM

Dave the Gnome;
I'd be interested to hear about the sources you've used for your Bacup researches.
Derek

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 12:02 PM

Date: 23 Apr 14 - 12:54 PM

In 2006, Diane Abbott, MP for Hackney, asked the government to stop the annual Darkie Day festival in Padstow.

In 1998, Bernie Grant, the late MP for Tottenham, condemned the tradition as "offensive to black people all over the place".

I never saw either of them in Padstow.

Or in Bacup, for that matter.

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 11:47 AM

Speaking of Jeremy Clarkson, I don't much like the chap but he is very funny. In the paper today it says he's been criticised for calling his black labrador dog 'Didier Drogba'. What's wrong with that? Very good Ivorian footballer.

Subject: RE: Bacup Nuters and Racism
From: GUEST,Dazbo at Work
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 11:41 AM

Oh, and I didn't know until this week that you're not to use the word "slope" when making TV films in Thailand as it is offensive. I didn't notice the context that Jeremy Clarkson used the word when I watched the programme but I guess that's another thread