BS: Detecting a lie?

Subject: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 07:07 AM

How good are you at detecting a lie. An interesting article from the Newyorker, that discusses the liklihood that the unconscious mind (aka, the gut) is able to sense deception to a greater degree than the conscious mind.






HOW TO TELL WHEN SOMEONE IS LYING 

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 07:10 AM

If it is a politician it is when their lips are moving. :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 09:13 AM

Chilling and absolutely fascinating Ed. I remember the investigation of the Soham murders, when Holly and Jessica disappeared. The school caretaker Ian Huntley was in front of the cameras a great deal, and my friend Fernley remarked, "He's the murderer. He did it!" There was something about his demeanour which Fernley had picked up. I think 'intuition' has a lot of value. It is indeed our basic instinct over-riding our more modern 'intelligence' and 'logic'. There have been quite a few cases of murder where the perpetrator has appeared in floods of tears in front of the News cameras, declaring their devastation and grief, when all the time they knew they'd killed the victim themselves. As a teacher of many decades, I pride myself on being able to detect lying slightly more easily than some others. There aren't any special signs, it's just instinct and experience. The trouble is, once you 'know' whodunnit, you have them to prove it. Not quite so simple!

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: Fossil
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 08:46 PM

Mostly it seems to be about sensitivity in picking up non-verbal clues given off by a person who is lying: body language, facial tics, changes in the pupil of the eye, blink rate and so on.

Such things are not under conscious control and an experienced person is able to read them in a subject.

Funnily enough, it is quite common for the observers to themselves be unaware of what they are interpreting, so one gets the idea of a "gut instinct", "I knew he was a wrong 'un", and even though experienced, an observer may not know exactly what it is they are looking at which gives the impression of mendacity.

Successful con-artists try very hard to control these autonomic responses and sometimes they are very good at it. Politicians, too... but that is another debate!

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 09:34 PM

Another interesting article on the topic.

Truth or lie - trust your instinct, says research  

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 09:45 PM

and, another perspective. 

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: GUEST,Larry the Radio Guy
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 11:07 PM

I'm quite wary about any of the conclusions drawn from research that says that we can trust our intuition to assess truth from lies. I agree that there are unconscious nonverbal cues that 'tend' to separate truth tellers from liars---and some people can learn to notice them.   But it's all probabilities.......and there are so many individual differences that it's dangerous to use them to jump to any conclusions.

As well, so much of what we call 'intuition' isn't intuition at all-----but is based on prior associations.   Someone who looks like an honest childhood friend is considered honest.......and somebody who resembles someone who lied to us we're more likely to disbelieve.

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 11:33 PM

Thanks for your link "and another perspective", Ed. It's the most intelligent view of lying that I've seen so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: Janie
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 11:52 PM

What Larry said.

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 10:39 AM

I'm following with much interest the Pistorius court case. And I'd like to bet he's been lying all along.

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: gnu
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 11:51 AM

Yer shittin me.

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 04:11 PM

Isn't there some moronic whodunnit TV series on some moronic satellite TV channel that sort of uses the concept, complete with irritating replays of the allegedly giveaway facial tics?

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 04:14 PM

In most real-life lying situations, there are two liars: the person who tells the lie, and the person who hears it and pretends to believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 04:19 PM

Afghanistan will become a model society next year, and
Sunnis and Shias in Iraq will reconcile.

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 06:05 PM

I can't see your face, so I don't know whether you're lying. Or maybe that that's one lie or two.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 08:24 PM

Fascinating - they shoudl start jury deliberations with a half-hour of charades or Pictionary!

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 03:12 AM

I read recently (sorry, can't remember where as I'm half-senile) that it's far easier to detect lying over the phone than facially. Some experiments with students showed they succeeded far more often in detecting a lie from a volunteer on the phone than from one sat in front of them. Apparently, a voice conveys much more to our 'intuition' than facial expressions do. I also read (maybe the same article) that so-called standard 'giveaways' are never reliable. A liar can look one directly in the eye and may not be 'shifty' at all. I've seen this in my pupils in class - they used to gaze appealingly into my eyes as they lied through their teeth, the little horrors. Also, a person telling the truth may be nonetheless nervous and unable to stop twitching or stammering etc. Those Border Control programmes are fascinating, as the Customs people at ports or airports have such enormous experience that they can spot a smuggler or an illegal immigrant a mile away. I've also spoken to Police who told me they can cruise the streets in a Police car and spot a criminal on the pavement easily just by instinct and experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 10:00 AM

Eliza, the border patrol statements of confidence in their own ability to spot a smuggler or illegal immigrant are merely self-serving and subjective individual statements, as are the police statements "based on you refer to, just based on "instinct and experience".

Presented with that kind of claim (based on my own instinct and experience) I say "bushwah!"

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 10:46 AM

And 'bushwah' to you too, Uncle DaveO! Seriously though, surely long experience of liars/villains/naughty pupils etc must give a person loads of insight into the significance of their own instincts? (It's been said that a person gives off a certain odour when they're lying. I wonder if this is true? If so, that wouldn't work over the phone.)
I'm not saying the Police, Immigration Officials etc are right every time. But I do trust their savvy. After all, they see hundreds on the streets (and literally thousands of arrivals at airports) daily. They must have learnt a few pointers.
Having said that, my husband arrived at Gatwick many years ago for the first time in UK, with his pukka Visa and entry documents to hand. After they'd checked these, they watched him speculatively as he walked to the exit carrying his cabin bag and towing his suitcase. He stopped, crouched down and transferred the small bag into the larger one. Immediately, several Border Police appeared, grabbed him and emptied both bags completely out onto a table. They were very nice and polite but he was shaking like a leaf. They swabbed everything for drugs, took off his shoes, patted him down, and questioned him. (He didn't speak any English) Of course, he was clean and was allowed to go. But I reckon it was that transfer of bags and also his appearance (single male, very poor-looking, thin and ragged, nervous. A drug-mule?) So in his case, they were mistaken. But I'm afraid I'd have stopped him too!

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 02:08 AM

If the border patrols could really spot drug smugglers a mile away, there would be no drug trafficking.

And if the police could spot criminals thru instinct and experience, terrorists and crazed gunmen wouldn't be able to walk past them into secure areas and wreak havoc with the alarming regularity that they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 02:39 AM

"I'm not saying the Police, Immigration officials etc are right every time..." (see above) And there are never enough Police etc to cope with the sheer numbers of miscreants. All I am saying (Beatles?) is they must know a thing or two more than we civvies do.

Subject: RE: BS: Detecting a lie?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 03:03 AM

At least hopefully, they observe the things that are out of place, like, perhaps, a man carrying a sawed off shotgun through a security point at, say, a naval shipyard.