fingerpicking guitar

Subject: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 May 14 - 04:23 PM

IS this skill dying out amongst young guitarists, just lately I keep coming across plectrum thrashing guitarists, they cannot seem to flatpick properly either, am i just unlucky?have others experienced this phenomenon.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Musket
Date: 12 May 14 - 06:12 PM

But they can "pleccy" properly eh?

Horses for courses.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 May 14 - 08:33 PM

sunjay brayne....came second in the BBC young foksinger nonsense. despite being at the time a seventeen year old who could play in tradition of Bert Jansch and Gerry Lockran.

a celtic outfit won. playing music that sounded identical to every other celtic outfit.

if the folk establishment have no idea of the artistic importance of the emergence of a young talent like Sunjay. what chance the kids.....?

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 14 - 03:58 AM

Richard Bridge, what is the meaning of your comment., apart from it being rude.
Musket, no they cant flatpick anything like Malcolm Price could, they are not pleccying very well, some of them are not even hitting bass strings cleanly.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 13 May 14 - 07:42 AM

Good Soldier Schweik, I'm with you on this. It takes time and precision to learn the art of Fingerpicking or Flatpicking, whereas thrashing two or three chords is quick and easy and appeals very much to the X Factor generation, which Mr Bridge seems to support. Like you I see too many young players, just strumming open tuned chords (which really are not chords at all), over using suspended voicing and generally making everything sound the same. I would say they need to spend more time learning the subtly of playing and set themselves above the average three chord thrasher.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 13 May 14 - 09:00 AM

Newbies (young or old) probably play that way because that's all they've ever heard. Two months ago, an Irish band came to town to a major venue, and I checked out their act on YouTube. They sounded like a band playing in the 1980's.

If famous, world-travelling bands play that way, then that must be the right way to do it, nicht wahr?

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 13 May 14 - 09:02 AM

Depends where you go, I suppose. Sure, at open mics you'll generally just see young singer-songwriters ineptly strumming a 3-chord song.

But I can think of tons of young fingerstyle guitarists. In fact at the particular music nights in London that I happen to go to, I'd say fingerstyle is probably more prevalent than strumming.

I could make a list of names but I can't be bothered.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Richard
Date: 13 May 14 - 09:18 AM

Absolutely not. There are a lot of excellent young finger and flat pickers around, well known and not so, in folk clubs around here (North London) Good singers, as well.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 14 - 09:19 AM

well true enuff matt' but I don't see another generation of Derek Brimstones, Gerry Lockrans, Ralph McTells - they were always a bit thin on the ground. but generally speaking you felt you were seeing something you couldn't do yourself. I don't get that feeling from anyone except Wizz and Sunjay - these days.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 13 May 14 - 09:40 AM

Try Tommy Emmanuel, Clive Carroll, Richard Smith, Arron Till, Doyle Dykes, not to mention the late Jerry Reed and Chet Atkins, and many more.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 14 - 10:08 AM

Some do, some don't, some can some can't.

Remember skiffle? Whether thrashing away is more common now than in earlier times is very doubtful, though always possible. My impression the standard of the best young players is better than it used to be, by a long way, and the standard of the worst is no worse.

We learn as we play, if we learn at all.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Musket
Date: 13 May 14 - 10:15 AM

Aye and nay bugger here had to learn and improve eh?

I "pick" most of the time when performing "folk" music. But I find my work with a plectrum to be much harder and in the right genre, much better.

Perhaps some people can't play plectrum as well as Malcolm Price? Perhaps, if we are resorting to a league table, he can't play as well as Gordon Giltrap who can't.....

Threads like this would really intimidate tomorrow's teenage Richard Thompsons..

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 14 - 10:23 AM

no, its not about intimidating anyone, it is about observing what is happening, i think it is connected with a move away from playing in clubs where people come specifically to listen, to open mike situations in pubs,perhaps it has a connection with attempted volume whilst playing acoustically to overcome background chatter and noise, but in pub situations fingerpicking is definitely in decline,. in folk clubs fingerpicking may still prevail, but my observation was made in regard to playing in pubs, I apologise if my statement was unclear.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 14 - 11:15 AM

no it's not about intimidating anyone. its about a folkscene that was too busy pursuing a phantom tradition to preserve living folk music.

clive carrol, chet atkins etc - not really anything to do with uk folkclubs.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 14 - 11:37 AM

Al, are you referring to the revival of english tradtional folk songs, and the attempts to counter and discourage english performers from singing american songs. it is quite true it happened.however , i do not see the connection between that and guitar techniques

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 14 - 11:56 AM

well yes....I would say that hand in hand with the trad revival began an abandonment of the time signatures and even the system of scales and keys that were the common currency of the music of the man in the street

remember that bloke, the poet, who didn't believe in chords even.

and really if you look at Carthy's version of Geordie/Georgie - you can see how he got there. MC doesn't play chords he plays notes.

And if you don't play chords - as a guitar player, you're pretty well fucked. Can you follow what I am saying?

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 May 14 - 12:59 PM

There's still a few of us around, Al - doing our bit where we can.

Here's a little something I do occasionally in the folkie world that usually gets a spot of attention...

Variations on Freight Train

I see a few young players around Brighton getting it together here and there. All hope is not lost. :-)

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 13 May 14 - 01:16 PM

Martin Carthy is probably the exception as he comes from the world of altered tunings, but all the other you mention Big Al are copying American styles so to me are just tributes to the real thing.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: johncharles
Date: 13 May 14 - 03:55 PM

I am sure there are many good young players. Have a look at some of this chaps work.



tom attah
john

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 14 - 06:44 PM

will fly, excellent guitar finger picking, thankyou.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 13 May 14 - 07:20 PM

There are some very good younger players about, and they are making it through to professional level. But around the sessions and the recently started players, strumming (or even thrashing) does seem to be the order of the day. Among friends that I play with, they sometimes need to be reminded that finger-picking would sound nicer for certain songs or arrangements.
Me, I'm a finger-picker (self-taught)who still can't really do "the big strum" properly or even use a pick - nail abuse!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 14 - 07:33 PM

I think you are being too censorious Richard. Actually it saddens me also that one of the traditions of the folk revival have just gone kerplunk and pretty much disappeared. I think Dick feels the same.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 May 14 - 12:27 AM

Wow, Will Fly. I greatly enjoyed your version. Great work.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 14 - 12:50 AM

If they sound like they want to sound, that is "right".

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 14 May 14 - 02:08 AM

Great job, Will. Dick, I've encountered lots of good young finger-pickers, but then again I'm in the U.S. and not where you are. Looking forward to picking with you in June.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 14 - 04:40 AM

"If they sound like they want to sound, that is "right"."
it may be right for them but that does not make it right for listeners, if we used that argument for the singing britney spears, it may be right for Britney, but it dont make it right for me.
let us take another example peter pears and benjamin britten, the water is wide waly waly, it may be right for them my opinion is it aint right for me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gHTw9XjKMc

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: johncharles
Date: 14 May 14 - 06:32 AM

Outstanding fingerpickers are by definition rare creatures. There are however, many very good fingerpickers. Harking back to "golden days" seems to be prevalent, if not usually true, amongst we older generations.
john

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 14 - 08:21 AM

What you are saying, Dick, is that if it does not sound the way you want it, it's wrong. De gustibus non disputandum. Or if not enough people like it it's wrong. That's an affront to artistic integrity.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 14 - 11:16 AM

No,YOU are saying, "if they sound like they want to sound it is right"
what i am saying, is that right to one person is not necessarily right for the listener.
it was you who mentioned something being wrong, furthermore you posted two extremely unpleasant posts sayingSubject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 12 May 14 - 06:05 PM

Arse, yours, up?
and another sayingSubject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 13 May 14 - 05:18 PM

I see this as Dick being a dick and trying to say he is better than the rest of us."
your posts reveal a lot about yourself, they are also rude, and inaccurate, at no time have I mentioned anything about my own playing, your posts are particularly ridiculous as I am primarily a concertina player, an instrument it is difficult to flatpick with a plectrum, please stop flaming.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Stanron
Date: 14 May 14 - 11:17 AM

"let us take another example peter pears and benjamin britten, the water is wide waly waly, it may be right for them my opinion is it aint right for me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gHTw9XjKMc"

I used to dislike this style of singing but now find quite a lot to admire.

However, the piano playing...!?

What planet.. etc. I really loath those crunchy, discordant, small interval chords enough in jazz. At least in jazz there's some sort of excuse in as much as there is a rule that you have to mindlessly use this kind of so called harmony, but surely not with a folk song. YUK!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 14 - 11:33 AM

Stanron...cool it man!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 May 14 - 11:44 AM

Actually, the piano arrangement was very interesting - using rising and falling versions of the same harmonic phrase around the repetitions of the main melodic line.

Nowt wrong wi' that, as we used to say in my native Lancashire. One man's meat, etc...

If you think you don't get that sort of stuff in folkie-type music, have a listen to some of the wonderfully outrageous solos that Richard Thompson gets away with so brilliantly!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 14 - 12:02 PM

that is the whole point, it is all a matter of opinion, which is why richard bridges statement about right, is arguable.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: johncharles
Date: 14 May 14 - 12:11 PM

I have now got this image in my head, of Britney Spears sat agonising
" Yes this Song will make me millions but is it right for GSS".
it is worse than an earworm.
john

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 May 14 - 01:30 PM

The website "Cdbaby" is a good place to check out what is happening.
I used the "advanced search" facility and requested "solo fingerstye guitar" recordings.
cdbaby search

Other searches that I could have requested could be, for example, "celtic fingersyle guitar" or, using the "sounds like" search facility, I could have put in the name of my favourite fingerstyle player.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 14 - 01:36 PM

I don't see the guitar picking that has arisen in English folk clubs as a tribute to the real thing.

if you studied it carefully you would realise that on the contrary - our approach to the acoustic guitar has resonated throughout the world. and I don't mean just the work of the traddies - Jones and Carthy.

I would put the work of Jansch, Graham and Eric Roche as being as influential and ground breakingly original as Django Rheinhardt was in his time.

The English style has a unique charisma. although I realise I have listed two Scotsmen and an Irishman - it happened in the English arena.

I learned Blind Lemon Jefferson's Matchbox Blues from Hamish Imlach, who had learned it from Jack Elliot - it was something different from the original before we took possession of it. Something uniquely ours.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,GIbsonboy
Date: 14 May 14 - 03:28 PM

Wouldn't disagree with any of the above, and would also add Nick Jones, however, the earlier names of Jones, McTell, Brimstone, Lochran, and now Brayne are all very much American influenced.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 May 14 - 04:57 PM

Well, for many of us, Nic Jones is THE English folk guitarist.
But, he, of course, had his inspirations.
Bert Jansch's sound and attack, and certain of Bert's techniques have greatly informed Nic's playing.
And, although Nic in his later playing phased out a lot of American influences ( like Carthy had done), he does use those influences in a breathtaking way in some later recording.
See link below, for an example of how Nic a riff, that could have come from a blues/rock band, to drive forward his rendition of an English ballad(I believe the tune is a Nic original).

Nic really rocks!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Stanron
Date: 14 May 14 - 05:23 PM

That sounds more eastern European than American and the highly decorative, open tuned guitar style is much more Uk than American.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 May 14 - 05:48 PM

To me, it has distinct overtones of Davy Graham - and, for unusual tunings and odd decoration, take a listen to some of the work of American guitarist John Fahey.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 14 - 06:56 PM

Carthy names Broonzy as one of his great influences. and if you listen to the swing in those bass strings - you will see what he means. ironically I would have said Carthy influenced some American guitarists. last year I saw Spider John Koerner and he was doing trad American folk songs - not using chords - but with a strong bass string single note accompaniment - very like MC.

isn't it in fact a two way street. I would object very strongly to English folk guitar being dismissed as some sort of tributary of American folk music. Lockran in particular could set the whole room swinging with his first two or three notes, - a guitarist of great uniqueness and distinction. I never saw his like before or since. And Derek Brimstone - his guitar sound was utterly unique -if you missed it cos of the dazzling chat - boy you missed out big time! He was one of the great stylists.

Frankly I get pissed off with hearing the work of both men dismissed by musicians not fit to lick their boots.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 14 - 07:06 PM

While I cannot hold a candle to Al as a guitarist, I would agree with classing the early Martin Carthy style as "Broonzy Thumb".   Latterly I think Carthy's guitar work has come come closer and ever to his dictum that folk music is in the time signature of 1. That would seem to distance it from US work.

All of it is a distance from whether an arrogant self-stated concertina player is competent to judge guitarists, and whether the benchmark is what he thinks, what the audience thinks, or what the performer intends.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 15 May 14 - 01:58 AM

WEll, early on Carthy used the the very popular style " clawhammer". Think of the accompaniment to LOrd Franklin".
Interestingly, Archie Fisher has continued to rely heavily on "clawhammer" style, but done beautifully with lots of subtle touches.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 14 - 02:28 AM

From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 12 May 14 - 06:05 PM

Arse, yours, up?
and another sayingSubject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 13 May 14 - 05:18 PM

I see this as Dick being a dick and trying to say he is better than the rest of us."



"All of it is a distance from whether an arrogant self-stated concertina player is competent to judge guitarists, and whether the benchmark is what he thinks, what the audience thinks, or what the performer intends."
Richard Bridge, why is starting a thread about fingerpicking, arrogant?, your above posts however are rude and inflammatory,and do not equate with sensible or interesting discussion.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 14 - 02:45 AM

please explain why a self stated concertina player[ are you doubting that i play concertina?]can not have an opinion on guitar finger picking, for the record i do play fingerpicking guitar and banjo at gigs, but have never made any claims about being better than anyone else, i am considered[ i believe] by most people to be a singer and concertina player, since you seem to be inferring that i might not play concertina at all, I can only conclude you have a peculiar sense of humour.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 14 - 03:30 AM

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=553014888063292&set=vb.463013160385848&type=2&theaterjust to prove that i do play english concertina, duet concertinahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9k0HmPElec
since i appear to have been challenged by richard bridgehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B_7pdBB-ts&list=PL998B0487CF451E7A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lADsPWsoR4
I think that while i may not be as good as will fly, the fingerpicking is adequate enough for me to have an opinion on finger picking.
RichardBridge there is your answer, now stop this nonsensical claptrap

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 15 May 14 - 03:59 AM

Hasn't it always been the case that there are more strummers than pickers? As a non-musician I prefer to listen to pickers and sliders but in these days of instant success fewer young people may be prepared to take the time to learn the more difficult techniques.
RtS
70 and still only able to kazoo & scrape

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 May 14 - 04:01 AM

Case in point.

Last week I was asked to sing a particular song for which my accompaniment is in a modal tuning, runs and arpeggios with not a single chord reading it's melodic head. Fingers doing what Mike Harding calls "little white maggots with St Vitus Dance."

However, it wasn't a concert but a singaround in a noisy pub.

Guitar tuned to concert. Out came the plectrum. Get thrashing......

Horses for courses.

This thread could of course be about the versatility of the guitar and make the same arguments.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 14 - 04:11 AM

This is bushes and briars in standard tuning, fingerpicking guitar, RichardBridge ,the proof of the pudding is right here, again I do not claim to be in will flys class , but I think it entitles me to an opinion.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojVFPeU0YQU&list=PL998B0487CF451E7A

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 May 14 - 04:36 AM

Following on from Musket there are some songs where you might start with finger- picking, but then move to strumming as the song "builds".
And yes, beautiful finger-picking can go totally unheard in a noisy pub session, so best to have more than one arrangement at your disposal.