fingerpicking guitar

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Musket
Date: 15 May 14 - 05:54 AM

Good point Tattie Bogle. Thinking on, I have a number of songs like that.

Plus, my "default" style is thumb pick and hammering the strings with 2nd & 3rd finger, neither strumming nor strictly speaking picking. I'm aware of finger picking being popular in folk as it isn't drowning out acoustically the words of the song. Unlike many other genres, the words generally have more prominence. I am not taken with the idea that finger picking is real folk and other styles not so. When I go to a Show of Hands concert, I don't berate them for not being someone else's definition.....



In earlier post, that's "rearing" not "reading."   iPad for sale. One foul mouthed user from new.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 14 - 06:51 AM

no conceit, just fact, there is no conceit about admitting, will fly is a better finger picker than myself.Bridge kindly go away.
Musket, in my opinion strumming can be folk, thumb picking in my opinion is folk and it is in my opinion a form of fingerpicking, it was popularised by maybelle carter, who also used hammering on.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 14 - 08:22 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZw6vFhHbEE, maybelle carter and earl scruggs, now that is some thumb pickingfhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZw6vFhHbEE

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 14 - 08:29 AM

maybelle carter, herehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENS4nD0vRKI,this style of playing works quite well for english trad in the keys of c and g .

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Stanron
Date: 15 May 14 - 10:06 AM

Nice tracks GSS. I enjoyed listening to them, and no disrespect at all but there was a lot of distance travelled to get to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olplcsNuqyg

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 May 14 - 10:41 AM

I once had the runs with arpeggios.....that's foreign food for you!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 15 May 14 - 11:26 AM

Good job on that Bushes and Briars, Dick.
Here in Florida it seems a lot of younger folks are picking up on a hybrid style involving strumming, picking with fingers and percussive thumps, bass and chord runs etc. some with a flat pick some without. It seems to leave a lot of room to develop a personal style. I'm kind of glomming onto it for some things. When I play them some of the styles I grew up on like Merle Travis, John Fahey etc. they're generally enthusiastic about it but unfamiliar with it.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 14 - 12:50 PM

stanron ,iagree that nic jones track is superb

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 May 14 - 11:50 PM

Hi, gillymor. I was interested to hear what's going on in Florida.

Do you know a guitarist named Richard Gilewitz from Clearwater? He is one of my favorite musicians.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 16 May 14 - 04:42 AM

Ben Walker, Laura Marling, Gren Bartley, George Frakes, Ben Folke Thomas, Jack Day, Sam Carter, Ewan D Rodgers, Ewan McLennan, Sunjay Brayne, Joe Wilkes, Sophie Jamieson, Maggie Rose, Abbey Bowden, Ethan Johns, David Broad, Michael Rossiter, Dan Raza, Jason Steel, Nancy Wallace, Mary Hampton, Nick E Harris, Chris Wolf, Luke Jackson, Alex Seel, ...

...all fingerstyle players, all under 30 I think, and that's just off the top of my head. If I gave it more thought I'd be able to think of a whole bunch more.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 14 - 04:54 AM

matt, i was thinking more about players that play in pubsand open mikes rather than folk clubs, i agree i should have made it clearer in my original post

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 16 May 14 - 07:33 AM

leeneia, I also like Gilewitz. I've never met him or seen him play and didn't know he was in Clearwater which is a few hours north of here. I especially like his take on the"American Primitive" style although he does a lot of things well and plays with such joy.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 May 14 - 07:39 AM

A previous poster mentioned "hybrid style" playing ( i.e. using a plectrum in conjunction with fingers).
So many players use that style these days that the lines between "flatpick" and fingerstyle are somewhat blurred.
I even saw some early Beatles footage where George was employing a hybrid technique.
Richard Thompson does a lot of hybrid picking, as does the wonderful Lucy Kaplansky ( I LOVE LUCY!). Indeed, Lucy, I think, plays exclusively hybrid style,
Hybrid has become my first choice style, and I would like to think that, if practised diligently, hybrid could cover everything that a pure fingerstyle and pure flatpicker could achieve.
I'm not quite at that point yet. But I am getting closer!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 14 - 07:58 AM

I haven't seen ALL those singers Matt - but I have seen some of them. just because their fingers aren't actually paralysed doesn't make them an finger picker artist with something to say artistically.

check out what renbourn, jansch, mctell. martyn, spider john koerner were doing at their age and stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

face facts - its stopped happening. bloody sad but there you are.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 May 14 - 08:36 AM

The problem with any style is that there is only so far it can be developed before it turns into something else!
For example, it's difficult to equate the earliest New Orleans jazz style with what John Coltrane was doing.
The truth is that Bert Jansch, I would say, never said anything original after the 1960s!
In the past 20 yrs, only Clive Carroll and Al Petteway have, for me, have said anything really interesting in the area folky/celtic/acoustic fingerstyle.
Sure, there are lots of tappers and the likes but I see them as gimmicky players that don't hold my interest for long.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Stanron
Date: 16 May 14 - 09:00 AM

Some people play the music and others play the instrument. I prefer the music.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 May 14 - 09:13 AM

What do you think of Pierre Bensusan, for example?

Night Song

I'm not a huge fan of what I call "airy-fairy" impressionistic guitar, but he's certainly an impressive player.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 16 May 14 - 09:17 AM

"check out what renbourn, jansch, mctell. martyn, spider john koerner were doing at their age and stop arguing for the sake of arguing."

Renbourn and Jansch were amazing guitarists, Ralph McTell and John Martyn were very very good guitarists, spider john koerner was/is a good player though I wouldn't say mind-blowingly brilliant. I like the music of all those people, though John Martyn isn't really my cup of tea. (I preferred his playing on his first two albums, before he started using FX)

I wouldn't claim that all of the people I mentioned above are on the same level as Renbourn or Jansch, but I don't think that's any different to how it was back in the 60s or 70s. . It's very easy to look at the past with rose-tinted spectacles. You've named just 5 of the top people out of thousands of guitarists and singer-songwriters that trod the boards in the folk revival.

If you're talking in pure technical terms, the playing of some of the whizzkids on the Candyrat Records label surpasses the stuff that Renbourn or Davey Graham was doing. It is totally unbelievable - stuff that beggars belief. Andy McKee, Gareth Pearson and others. I don't personally like it - it's a bit too flashy for me, and it's almost all instrumental. No soul. But without question they are playing stuff that would challenge a Renbourn or a Jansch.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 14 - 09:35 AM

I'd say that Michael Rossiter's playing is as interesting as prime Jansch/Graham/Renbourn stuff. He's a young guy from Leeds, who made a bafflingly overlooked album called 'My Dearest Dear' in about 2008.

I'd say much the same about Jason Steel's stuff - albums like 'Baby, Wolves Abound'.

Chris Joynes' playing, particularly on his album with Stephanie Hladowskie, 'The Wild Wild Berry' is also up there with those classic 60s fingerpickers in my humble opinion

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 May 14 - 09:57 AM

Mmm... just listened to Andy McKee and Gareth Pearson. No real form there, for me, once you've got past the technical brilliance - and brilliant it is. McKee in particular sounds as though it's a continuous loop of ambient music - which is maybe what he wanted. Can you whistle it five minutes after hearing it? Not that that's the ultimate test of course - but, to be honest, I'd rather have 2.5 minutes of Cliff Gallup blasting out some '50s rock'n roll behind Gene Vincent.

The first blues I ever heard was Lead Belly singing "Grasshoppers In My Pillow" - one of the most moving and simple bits of 12-string guitar playing ever. And Graham's re-working of it into "Leaving Blues", with it's amazing riffs, has far more flesh on the bone than some of the rappers and tappers of today - in my opinion, of course! :-)

As for comparing these styles with someone like Graham, it's worth remembering that, in his day, DG broke the rules, doing stuff like no-one had ever done before - which is why it still resonates today, around 50 years later. Graham wasn't a prolific composer, but the approach he took to the guitar was as revolutionary then as others are now.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 May 14 - 01:25 PM

Ran across this young guitarist at Banbury last year - seems to be just a bit good both flat and fingerstyle:-


Rory Evans

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 14 - 02:58 PM

lets hope you're right matt and I am wrong.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 14 - 04:12 AM

but is the demise of finger picking in noisy open mike situations or similiar, due to bad planning by organisers, eg lack of amplification[thus the need to strum to be heard],i notice the same thing with a lot of buskers that i have come across.in my opinion we need more venues with seperate rooms where people go specifically to listen, where quiet sensitve renditons of fingerpicking can be heard

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 May 14 - 05:53 AM

nah that's not the answer GSS. you have to move with the punches, or whatever the expression is.

I have always been a fingerpicker -so I had to met this problem head on thirty years ago - when I twigged the folk music scene was on its last gasp for pro musicians. sadly I don't think running university courses to produce young musos who want eight hundred quid a night to play has done much to help things. except perhaps produce - yet another layer of society that pontificates about folk music without involving the British folk.

I played telecasters and a Rickenbacker - oh yeh -and a Gibson Chet Atkins. nowadays if I were doing pub lounges - i'd use a variax. dadgad at the press of button.

it changes the music - but hey - things change!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 17 May 14 - 08:05 AM

Young Rory Evans has played at our open mic several times: very talented and seems a nice kid too.
RtS

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Stanron
Date: 17 May 14 - 03:14 PM

"What do you think of Pierre Bensusan, for example?

Night Song

I'm not a huge fan of what I call "airy-fairy" impressionistic guitar, but he's certainly an impressive player. "

Hi Will. If you were asking me this with regard to my 'playing the music or playing the instrument' comment then Pierre is definitely playing the music. However you can't take his playing the instrument out of the equation but the music is not suffering as a result. Some of the more modern advanced players seem to loose the music behind the technique. Maybe it's a matter of taste, maybe I'm just an old fart saying 'it was better in my day'

Pierre Bensusan had a vid of The Hesleyside Reel on UTUBE a few weeks ago. Can't find it now. I know this tune from tune sessions and he changed the key to suit the guitar. Now Pierre B is probably not going to turn up and play that tune at a tunes session but some young 'up and comer' might learn his version, try and play it at a session and get the 'frowns' for playing it in the 'wrong' key.

I'm not sure if there is any one correct inference to draw from this but you decide if it is putting the instrument before the music.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 May 14 - 07:36 PM

Hi Stanron - I was actually asking Tunesmith, but your post got in the line before my reply to him! :-)

I was just genuinely curious how people feel about Bensusans playing.

I suppose that I'm old-fashioned in that I think technique is a means to an end - and a lot of very brilliant and twinkling players seems to me to use technique as an end in itself. And, as a lover of beautiful melodies which can develop or can remain simple, I'm often struggling to find good, simple melodies inside the technical brilliance.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 14 - 08:09 PM

TECHNIQUE SHOULD ONLY BE A MEANS TO AN END. To me that is the difference between Earl Scruggs banjo and his guitar playing, I prefer his guitar playing.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 17 May 14 - 08:18 PM

I really loved Bensusan's early stuff (so much so that I went out and bought a Lowden that I will never part with). Pres de Paris and Musiques were/are master works, IMO. Solilai had some very interesting original compositions and after that he went in a direction that didn't interest me.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 18 May 14 - 06:10 AM

If your technique is bad your playing will be bad. Bad or incorrect technique will limit how good a player you could be, its a bit like saying I don't need to practice.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Musket
Date: 18 May 14 - 06:11 AM

Interesting that you mention the Variax Al. In larger gigs, I use a Line6 for similar reasons.

The reason I mention that is horses for courses. The Line6 is a solid body and to be honest isn't much use for finger picking. In fact the only true electric I have that I feel I can pick on as well as any acoustic is my Gretsch Electromatic.

Now... In a pub singarond, I doubt any of my electrics are of use, and I use the Rainsong for the acoustic volume. (Ironic that the LR Baggs pickup is sublime...) and if the room is quietish, I pick. if it is noisy, I get the pleccy out.

I really don't see where this discussion is going other than comparing styles in general. Saying that one is better than the other is not only subjective, but is rather narrow too.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 May 14 - 07:21 AM

it depends - the variax 700 I have two of them   they are a curse and a blessing. line6 are a weird American company -they put things into boxes basically. they seem to know sod all about their own product.

of course they are not as nice as an acoustic. I have found however that through a Fender acoutasonic amp - the audience can't tell the difference - you will - they won't.

the pluses are

great compression you need less volume - you don't need a big amp
no feedback
instant retuning
a variety of sounds - the 12 string is very impressive

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 14 - 07:29 AM

I have not said that technique is not necessary, I am saying it is a means to an end.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: johncharles
Date: 18 May 14 - 08:21 AM

Just watched the Pears and Britten Waly Waly. I thought it was rather good. Excellent singer and subtle varied accompaniment. Many "folksingers and fingerpickers" could learn a thing or two from this performance. Just my opinion of course.
john

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 14 - 08:41 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq1dBEuyNq8&feature=youtu.be
finger picking again, and here is the original with a tradtional singer talking and making it very clear that he considers entertainment of paramount importance[jim carroll please take note]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwlOO8RG-og

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 14 - 10:43 AM

how would folk singers learn stylistically from a classical style rendition of a folk song, pears singing is not excellent stylistically it is awful, and brittens accompaniment is bizarre, just my opinion of course.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 May 14 - 10:46 AM

I don't think the discussion has to lead anywhere really. its nice to talk to other the guitarists. there will always be some idiot who has done nowt, and thinks he knows it all. most of us know we know nowt, compared to what there is to know.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Musket
Date: 18 May 14 - 11:38 AM

Too true Al.. Despite the variax, I only recently found that if I pick rather than strum, the output from my Rainsong OM10 is clean enough for a Cakewalk plug in to distinguish each string and give a similar effect, allowing far more samples to be used.

Granted, not much use on stage but fun in the home studio environment and as you say, we know nowt compared to what we could know.

Finding that out with double drop D tuning right now in fact....

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: johncharles
Date: 18 May 14 - 11:40 AM

"how would folk singers learn stylistically from a classical style rendition of a folk song" singing in tune would be a start for some.
john.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 18 May 14 - 12:46 PM

Of course, Pears may be technically very good, but his singing is not in the spirit of the music; indeed, classically trained singers tend to sound sterile to me, with a very self-conscious delivery.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 14 - 01:05 PM

john charles,singing in tune is not about style,
I have yet to come across any paid performer on the uk folk scene who sang out of tune,
furthermore I think brittens accompaniments are not stylistically correct either,in fact i think he shows a complete misunderstanding of the harmonic nature of the tune, just my opinion of course, stylistically like pears he is clueless, applying classical ideas of harmony that are to say the least inappropriate

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Stanron
Date: 18 May 14 - 01:07 PM

It's true that in folk music we generally value expression and feeling over precision and clarity and Peter Pears displays more of the latter and less of the former. Funnily enough the fact that both genres used to be unamplified is at least one thing they have in commonm. I suspect another is that the greats of both genres have both precision and expression.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,ikeL2
Date: 18 May 14 - 01:32 PM

Hi Al

<" most of us know we know nowt, compared to what there is to know ">

How very true. As I got to play the guitar more seriously I found I knew nowt and what is more I don't know much more now if I compare it with others.

Mind you; I never tried to say I knew a lot when When I thought I did...innit?

Cheers

MikeL2

PS if you know what I am trying to say. please explain it to me....lol

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: johncharles
Date: 18 May 14 - 01:35 PM

GSS I never mentioned style you raised that one.
john

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 May 14 - 01:47 PM

Listen to Andreas Scholl singing a selection of English traditional songs, as part of his Vaughan Williams work.

Technically excellent, classical in style but about as much passion as a wet fish and sterile as a speyed whippet.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Nick
Date: 18 May 14 - 02:09 PM

MikeL2, this may help to explain some of it. In my limited experience it is remarkably prevalent in music circles.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Stanron
Date: 18 May 14 - 02:22 PM

Andreas Scholl , more a counter tenor then standard tenor perhaps. I don't find this offensive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN5PmR3_XBQ

or this,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrDdRLDaZtE

But it's not folk as we know it Jim.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: johncharles
Date: 18 May 14 - 03:26 PM

Pears and Britten recorded folk songs before the " folk revival" began. They were of their time and that time is past.
Music moves on and changes. How guitar is played and accompaniment styles similarly move on and change. The "rapping tapping" ( Will Fly)is an example of this change. We may not all like these changes but they happen anyway. None of this means that we have not or cannot learn from the past. I think Ewan McColl was nearer to Pears then to Boden in style.
I see Mumford and Son are worth £37 million. Expect a rush on guitars and banjos.
Badly written but off out playing.
john

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 May 14 - 04:08 PM

I don't find Scholl offensive either. I have lots of his work. The traditional folk work I refer to loses out in spirit when subjected to the technical classical approach though.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 14 - 04:18 PM

Ewan MacColl singing BEARS no resemblance to Peter Pears.if you think his singing is nearer to pears than boden, you need to get new ears
http://www.brightyoungfolk.com/gigs/video/jon-boden-sings-the-trees-they-do-grow-high.aspx YOUR COMMENTS ARE NOT ONLY BADLY WRITTEN BUT BADLY INFORMED.
alternatively you are tone deaf