BS: Whither now England?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 23 May 14 - 08:13 AM

How about a federation? Separate governmanet and independence (whatever that means - all economies are inter-dependent nowadays)for Scotland, England, Wales, N.Ireland,with their own parliaments etc - but all represented at a Federal British Islands Forum, to replace the UK Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: redhorse
Date: 23 May 14 - 02:28 PM

It's my understanding that British pensioners resident in another country don't get their state pension increased with inflation. Previously it was just those resident in non-EU countries that got heir pensions frozen, but I'm sure I read that the current government extended it to all countries.I think the argument (spin?) was that those not living in uk are not affected by uk inflation. Can anyone confirm this?

So this would presumably affect the not insignificant number of British pensioners who have retired to Scotland, if the split happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 24 May 14 - 02:29 AM

According to the press, British politics has now got a fourth party. Was this a knee jerk protest vote or did the British public frock to a party prepared to address issues where other parties fear to tread ?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 May 14 - 02:43 AM

They certainly didn't "frock" to UKIP. That particular set of people don't like cross dressing poofters ! (My iPad makes those autocorrect mistakes too. I sympathise.)

Everybody at a very base personal level has fear and mistrust of others and likes to blame others for perceived predicaments. The likes of Farage play on this, as did the rise of fascism 80 or 90 years ago across Europe.

The UK resisted it then, including denouncing Mosely, so it is rather sad that with education, social mobility and opportunity, society has still failed a hell of a lot of people. Farage isn't the answer but the dismal intelligence of those who voted for him tells us a lot about the failures of present politicians and the lack of alternatives.

If most of their voters are one off protest, they are playing a dangerous game.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 May 14 - 03:14 AM

We were accosted by two very rude ladies in Norwich last weekend. They were anti-UKIP and positively shouted at us not to vote for Farage's Party as it was terribly racist. They stuffed their leaflets into our reluctant hands, and one lady put her face right up to my husband's and bellowed, "Don't vote UKIP! They'll make things difficult for people like you!" (Meaning I suppose that as he's black, he'd better watch out.) He drew himself up and replied firmly, "I will vote for who I like, thank you!" I was quite proud of him. Not a very pleasant encounter.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 14 - 03:35 AM

"Everybody at a very base personal level has fear and mistrust of others and likes to blame others for perceived predicaments"

You've got it wrong there old boy. Mr Farage does not blame the immigrants, I have heard him saying that he cant blame anyone from leaving a bankrupt, basket case of an economy, to come to a country where they can earn and send money back to their families.
That is simply self interest and self preservation.

Mr Farage blames a series of UK governments, for following a media, and short sighted economic agenda, which caused all the social and cultural predicaments.

Remember how UKIP was demonised by "liberals"? Their agenda has been scrutinised and found to be flawed......Surprised?

You want a capitalist economy, you must be prepared to exploit everything and everybody......but you must be sure you have the infrastructure to carry it off.   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 May 14 - 03:51 AM

"So this would presumably affect the not insignificant number of British pensioners who have retired to Scotland, if the split happens."

Don't know how many times things have to be repeated in the same thread. Re the Scottish gvt's White Paper any British citizen habitually resident in Scotland would automatically qualify as a Scottish citizen and re said white paper plus their paper on pensions existing pension rights will be protected.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 24 May 14 - 04:22 AM

"Mr Farage does not blame the immigrants ..."

Questionable! Nevertheless, I strongly suspect that most of his supporters "blame the immigrants".

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 May 14 - 05:26 AM

He certainly doesn't blame German immigrants even if he does Romanian ones. You see xenophobia is fear of all foreigners. Racism is distinguishing which to hate.

Eliza's unfortunate experiences show that any ideology can fall into the hands of those who would serve their country best by changing their odious approach.

Of course, the newspapers who built the monster up now have the opportunity to knock him back down again. Now he has a few councillors, their lack of coherent direction and policies can be scrutinised by those who put their faith in them.

I shudder to think what would crawl from under a stone if any of their nonsensical claims had substance. Who'd have thought a stockbroker would advocate losing the London Stock Exchange? If he gains enough MEPs, the Frankfurt stock exchange will have to put in planning permission for their larger premises...

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 14 - 09:06 AM

Shim, what motivates the electorate is hardly the fault of Mr Farage or his party, he has set out his argument against membership of the EU very well and also his opposition to unregulated immigration from EU countries.....This is not racism, and to infer that it is , is lazy and crass.

I remember the electorate voting en masse for a "liberal" Labour leader, who shamed us all by assisting the US in a war which cost many lives and left Iraq in a worse state than before.
We were never told of Mr Blair's intentions, the details of his deal with Bush have never been published. Don't talk to me about political manipulation!

We may not agree with Mr Farage, but he has been straight with the electorate and they seem to be responding.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 24 May 14 - 10:24 AM

"This is not racism"

If it's not racism, it's certainly xenophobia. Unless you've been on the moon for the past week then you'd have seen our heard his interview during which the interviewer drew Farage's utterly unreasonable attitude to (amongst other things) people not speaking in English in trains and labelling all Romanians as antisocial.


"We may not agree with Mr Farage, but he has been straight with the electorate and they seem to be responding."

Where does this myth that Farage is "straight with the electorate" come from? Are people watching the same news reports? The man is the worst kind of hypocrite, and it's those voting for him he's laughing at as he takes their tax money for not representing our best interests in the European parliament. He's old establishment and not of the ilk of most of the people voting for him.

Furthermore, given the blanket coverage the BBC has given Farage (notice he's pretty much the ONLY person from the party to ever appear in the media, apart from one airing of the execrable Neil Hamilton on Question Time). The turd has been truly polished, and with our licence fee.


"There is no comparison between the inclusive welcoming (i.e. to incomers) nationalism of the SNP and the xenophobic rants of some UKIP candidates."

Yes, but no-one in these islands has the monopoly of being welcoming to incomers. England has always welcomed people to her shores and part of the strength of English society is its multicultural and diverse nature. It's reflected in our art, sport, music, literature and pretty much everything else. Heck, even our most popular dish is an Asian fusion concoction.

The problem is the Tories have imposed austerity in a way that means they can accomplish their idealogical aims of destroying the NHS and whipping up fear about johnny foreigner coming over here nicking our jobs.

Like I keep saying, we can do better than this.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 24 May 14 - 10:48 AM

We certainly can Shimrod. But as you see, gullible impressionable fools have a vote, and that is still the best political system there is.

I would have thought that education and general intelligence would mean most people could see through the media coconut shy that makes Farage seem respectable.

Not one single reviewer, not a single journalist nor commentator has given UKIP policies and ideas credence. Their only credibility is from those taken in by irresponsible claims of a better tomorrow by blaming others for our situation.

No wonder his power base is Essex. Sophistication city....

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 24 May 14 - 02:04 PM

If you live in the EU, Switzerland and selected other countries your UK pension increases by the same amount as it does the UK. We get the GBP10 Xmas bonus as well.

AS for intelligence and education- if the Daily Wail, Sun, Mirror et al tell them white is black then Jack and Jill Average will believe it, more so if they can blame someone else for telling them otherwise. Independant thought, analysis and deduction are too much like hard work for them. Remember the NotW anti-paedophilia campaigh which resulted in a flash mob attacking a paediatrician......

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 May 14 - 02:11 PM

Not one single reviewer, not a single journalist nor commentator has given UKIP policies and ideas credence

Crap. They're entirely a media creation, and the publishers and broadcasters responsible have blood on their hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 14 - 05:15 PM

Shouldn't it be "Wither now, England" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan conn
Date: 24 May 14 - 07:58 PM

Again stu i never said Scots had a monopoly on being welcoming. I compared the policies of the snp against ukip. I drew no comparison between Scotland and England and have no desire to.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 May 14 - 04:03 AM

They do have blood on their hands Jack. But they also haven't given his ideas and wishes any credence.

The media are clever, don't ever forget that. They love his beer and fags approach but which one followed up Nick Robinson's hard questioning ? They concentrated on the hard time he got, not the lack of answers.

As I said, not a single tabloid journalist has examined what UKIP represent. There again, in the last general election , Farage famously claimed he hadn't read his own manifesto.

The media built up an image. They haven't given policies any scrutiny because that would shatter said image. I have genuinely looked for what they would do if they ran a council. I am still none the wiser.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 14 - 05:45 AM

To say the media "assisted" Mr Farage and his party is ridiculous.
Every news and media outlet including the Mail, did their worst to smear Mr Farage and to stop discussion of his policies.

The crux of the problem is of course our membership of the EU and Mr Farage is Quite correct in stating that most of our social and economic problems spring from that.

The Open Door immigration policy will never be re-negotiated, Mrs Merkel has made that perfectly clear, we don't have the funds available to provide the infrastructure required to care for a huge number of economic migrants.
The whole mad scheme was dreamt up as a means of "making the UK more competitive in the Global market place"

So much for the brilliance of political thought.
We should never have joined and must get out as quickly as we can.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Guest,Over the bar
Date: 25 May 14 - 06:44 AM

Strong showing by the Sinn Fein in north and south,KKK, GET ON YOUR BIKE.
.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 25 May 14 - 07:22 AM

We are a trading nation. A stockbroker by the name of Nigel Farage even said so.

50% of our trade is with our European partners. The common market is a bit of a success story. Farage would risk that in order to isolate us for no given reason. I was in Norway recently and one problem they have is the need to abide by many EU directives whilst not being able to influence or veto them in order to achieve free trade.

What pays for UKIP voters benefits

The trick isn't to fetter Europe, but to make it fit for purpose. The conservatives run scared of nationalistic buffoons and try to emulate them whilst Labour roll with the punches in Brussels. I'm not sure our political parties help themselves here as both parties accidentally or otherwise allow idiots to blame the bits that prop up our economy for the bits that don't work.

At least Scotland realises the importance of remaining in Europe, and both sides of the debate agree on that much at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 14 - 08:28 AM

"The trick isn't to fetter Europe, but to make it fit for purpose."

Don't you realise that we are no longer in a position to dictate to the EU? Germany and France have made it quite clear that there will be no re-negotiation.

We have become a hindrance, while they search for markets and influence in Eastern Europe. we are simply a parking ground for economic migrants, we are effectively being used by the EU, and there is nothing we can do about it.

Scotland, after independence will be forced to address the issue of Europe and remove herself. Unlike the UK, we are in a relatively strong position regarding trade, "Scottish" being a very strong brand in various fields.

To be a truly independent nation we must not surrender sovereignty to the Brussles.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 25 May 14 - 11:27 AM

"Given that the media have given Farage a campaigning platform on every bulletin this is hardly surprising. You could put a used bog roll up for election and it'd poll high with that amount of airtime."

The coverage he gets, is because he is news, unlike the other boring old farts, who are scared to say anything, that is not, right on message!

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 14 - 11:48 AM

Well, you'll find out tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 May 14 - 03:52 AM

akenaton, I agree with everything you say. We must get out of Europe and not after a possible referendum in 2017, but immediately! Just look at the results coming in. Farage has risen to first position in the list. Why will the government not listen and act? This is a democracy after all, and if the majority want out then get us out!

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 May 14 - 04:02 AM

It looks as if the French want out as well, judging by this morning's News.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 May 14 - 04:46 AM

Do you have a link, Eliza?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 May 14 - 04:48 AM

The media has spoken.

I always look for positives and hopefully this Europe wide dissatisfaction with how The EU has been managed will result in two things.

1. A complete overview of the structures, including the will of the people when it comes to widening the zone.

2. The people actually taking an interest. The opportunities to oppose expansion were ignored by constituents, media and Westminster politicians. The EU has been seen as something to do with measuring bananas.

With 50% of our actual trade and the huge numbers of multinational companies providing jobs here due to our membership, the only danger is that this could be compromised.

I heard Farage say that it is only the common market that Europe needs. I can't disagree but would point out that many of the policies he opposes are there to create a level playing field for said common market.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 14 - 05:06 AM

"The media has spoken"

No it hasn't. The media is thoroughly pissed off, listen to any of today's interviews. The bastards are crying their eyes out, their ideology, which you follow slavishly, has been proved a mirage and their smear tactics ineffective.....take the hint Ian.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 14 - 05:19 AM

What I will say, as a supporter of Scottish Independence, is that Alex will have to start giving some serious thought to our position regarding the EU.

I have said for years that Scotland is a socially conservative country, and many here are appalled by the acceptance of EU laws and regulations on social and economic issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 26 May 14 - 07:51 AM

"To be a truly independent nation we must not surrender sovereignty to the Brussles."

Or the Bank of England.


"I have said for years that Scotland is a socially conservative country"

Blimey. England is a naturally left-leaning country that had had enough of Labour's fiscal ineptitude at the last general election and let the tories in, who have gone on to decimate our social structures, alienate a whole start of society with lies and have attempted to redefine us as a nation of corporate slaves. Even the Scots, the great democratic hope for these islands elected a UKIP candidate.

The results of the local and EU elections are interesting, as it seems the slaves have had enough. In the local elections, the right was divided and labour romped home, and the fact in both elections labour did well in London only goes to reinforce the claim we are being ruled by the same elite that has oppressed us for centuries. It's going to be hard to blame the ordinary working people of the capital for the woes of any of the regions when they have so comprehensively rejected the right-wing parties. Good on 'em, they are as much under the Westminster cosh as the rest of us (and they have Boris to endure too).

It's also no coincidence that in the most multicultural area of the country, the working folk have rejected the xenophobia of the middle-aged white men and women of UKIP. Out in the shires the overwhelmingly white populace has been cowed by the likes of Farage and his public-funded media campaign (thanks British media!), and have swallowed his nasty establishment bile wholeheartedly; thank the maker there are enough of us with a conscience to provide an adequate counter to these myopic, intolerant 'old school' brits.

If anyone looking on wants to know how Britain ended up with an empire, the likes of Farage built it on the backs of the working people for the aristocracy. These are the tosspots you should direct your anger at. They hate everybody BUT the establishment, which they worship.

So we wake this morning with less relevance in Europe than ever before. In some ways it's deserved, as a people we are becoming split and reverting to nationalism and all the baggage that brings with it. It's a shame we don't feel as strong together as we actually are.

But then, perhaps it has ever been thus. They hate the idea of communities coming together, becoming active and steering their own course for the common good. I have more hope for England after these results. However the media spin the xenophobe's victory, there are enough of us left who care about our society to ensure we don't let these misogynistic, homophobic, anti-intellectual, anti-art, pro-corporate, mean-minded people take this country over without a fight.

The spirit of the Diggers and the Tolpudlle Martyrs isn't driven from the land yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 May 14 - 08:18 AM

You know, it isn't fair to say UKIP have no policies other than immigration.

I'm not sure those who voted for them want;

A 33% flat tax rate on everything you earn.

Fox hunting legalised.

Reducing the sentencing criteria for cruelty to animals.

Opting out of Human Rights.

Bars and restaurants allowing smoking.

Married gay couples being told their marriage is now illegal.

I haven't managed to find much about losing the stock market, losing 50% of export markets, losing multinational companies who provide jobs here as a gateway to Euro markets, employee rights, NHS...

Of course, regarding immigration, leaving Europe may prevent hitherto legitimate immigration from EU countries but illegal immigrants? Err.. It just means they land on our shores rather than Italy and Spain. Euro cooperation on borders wouldn't apply. The French holding camp at their end of the tunnel? Gone.

Be careful what you wish for. Akenaton is licking his chops over this, and if he's happy, just remember that earlier today he called gay families a mad social experiment on an Adjacent thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 May 14 - 08:40 AM

UKIP's policy in Scotland is to end devolution and any aspiration for independence. The three unionist parties untitled to ensure the Liberal seat would NOT go to SNP. Remember, the government of an Independent Scotland will not necessarily be the SNP so a referendum on the EU could be on the cards.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 26 May 14 - 01:55 PM

How did UKIP do in Scotland Jim? What does this tell you about September's referendum?

I'll tell you what, it isn't half interesting for the chattering classes but what happens when people forget to return to less extreme options now they have given real politicians a bloody nose? It isn't just ignorance and stupidity that has flocked to UKIP.

Real people with real concerns are either wanting proper politicians to sit up and listen to their fears or they actually agree with far right thugs.

I don't know how many are in each camp. Does anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 14 - 02:26 PM

The protest part of the vote had nothing to do with "left" "right" politics; and everything to do with "liberal" cant, and if left unchecked, its inevitable destruction of society.


As I have said, we were headed for an Orwellian world, where freedom of speech and thought on social issues was proscribed.
The media had become too powerful, any pretence of democracy abandoned, any dissent demonised. The gang we see on these pages trying to silence discussion by smear and insult are a wonderful example of "liberalism" in action, thankfully admin is brave and strong enough to ensure we keep these pages free. People in the real world had thought it was impossible to speak against the power of the media, till Mr Farage showed them it could be done.

But this is about issues of sovereignty and society.......if we dare to attack the system, we will be NOT be tolerated.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 May 14 - 02:31 PM

Musket, as I said the three unionist parties voted tactically to ensure the UKIP member won. When his address was read out at the declaration, the public laughed as he gave his address as London! The whole UKIP setup in Scotland was laughable with infighting and slagging matches so I am waiting to see their candidate unravelling. UKIP's share of the Scottish vote was just over 10% and only narrowly beat the Green Party who had no great media support. UKIP was never off the TV in Scotland unlike the SNP and Greens. Some people have spoken in favour of UKIP as is their democratic right with a little help from their Labour, Tory and Liberal friends .. but it will be regretted. Their message is pure poison but Scotland no doubt has its share of poisonous, xenophobic louts. But at least, Musket, UKIP were only fourth in Scotland while the SNP won the Scottish election by topping the polls ... not bad for a government in its 7th year.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 26 May 14 - 02:41 PM

So in other words, UKIP won.

Regarding the post above yours, I might point out that in his Orwellian world, he would fit in nicely. After all, he calls gay families a mad social experiment and puts the word marriage in parentheses when the couple are the same gender.

If he was educated and intelligent he'd be dangerous. In the meantime, he sees shouting down bigotry and intolerance as er.. Intolerant?

Back in your hole worm. You are even embarrassing Scottish nationalists, and that takes some doing, listening to SNP.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 May 14 - 03:37 PM

Musket, I think he embarrasses most decent people although I suggest "embarrassing" is a rather mild description of the effect he has one me, at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 26 May 14 - 04:35 PM

Remains to be seen, I presume , how ukip fare in a general election, if all the policies musket describes are presented then. The opinion of the common market is another matter, that has been expressed by ukips success now.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 14 - 04:53 PM

Interesting Jim, never thought an admirer of McDairmid would be have any truck with faux liberalism or political correctness.
Always a rebel in my eyes, but you are the expert.

Perhaps if you actually lived in the Scotland, you might have a better idea of the nature of its people.
Perhaps you are one of the "metropolitan elite"?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 May 14 - 07:01 PM

Jim I believe that the hilarity over his address had nothing to do with where he lived but to do with the controversy over him supposedly registering the wrong address with the electoral commission which some are saying if true could result in a hefty fine.

he car crashed on Radio Scotland today. Saying that there were hundreds of crazy EU rules, many new ones being put in place every month, which he would work to repeal. However when pressed by the interviewer he was unable to give even one specific example. Using the now stock UKIP excuse "oh I'm tired". He then refused to rule out the idea that UKIP may work with the French National Front.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 14 - 07:32 PM

There's nothing inconsistent between left views on economic matters and socially "conservative' views on others. Which I would take is the point akenaten is making. I express no views as to whether he is right about Scotland in that respect. But my impression is that it's a pretty common combination in many places and among many people.

Good to see the Green Party now ahead of the LibDems, in spite of virtually no media attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 14 - 07:41 PM

I note that this thread is more "Whither Scotland" now.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 May 14 - 09:27 PM

"whither" is only a political/social term.

No matter what Scotland does... or even Wales, for that matter.... they will still be right there next door, and people will still shop, visit, sing, ... and complain about each other as before. All that independence can do is add some nationalistic 'pride' and a layer of complex bureaucracy to the current situation.
I guess I see why the idea is being pursued, but all I see for the US is needing to appoint one more ambassador & staff an embassy.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 27 May 14 - 02:46 AM

"All that independence can do is add some nationalistic 'pride' and a layer of complex bureaucracy to the current situation."

Couldn't it be argued that independence would actually get rid of a layer of bureaucracy for Scotland?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 27 May 14 - 02:52 AM

"I note that this thread is more "Whither Scotland" now."

Though Scotland was at the heart of it from the very first post with the claim that Scots deny their part in empire and prefer to blame the English!! It seems some folk find it hard to talk about England without having a wee go at Scots in the process.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 27 May 14 - 03:46 AM

That wasn't a 'go' at the Scots - this sense of victimhood is tiring as it's trotted out endlessly. If you bottle it on the currency, we can expect it in perpetuity. The distancing from empire by many nationalist Scots, who wish to appear more like the Irish who suffered under the hands of the British Empire is plain wrong: it's nationalism re-writing history. There is of course a fair amount for Scots to despise the English for, but once again they were willing beneficiaries of empire and it's a mistake to duck the responsibility for it. The English know this at least (and are reminded often enough).

Part of the problem for the English are the feelings of confusion and guilt that are felt by so many people regarding our role in Empire. That is one of the reasons English nationalism remains in the hands of right-wing boors whom still think we should be 'great' again. Of course, the real strength of the Empire were the ordinary folk whose backs were broken building and maintaining it, not the political, business and aristocratic classes making the decisions and running the show.

My original premise was what is needed is a bit of brutal honesty from us all, for the sake or the ordinary working folk of our islands. We need to remember people like us started unions and co-operatives, organised ourselves to fight the injustices the ruling classes imposed upon us and often died or were deported for our efforts.

The blood of these islands knows no borders. We are all one people and our cultures are all different sides of the same whole, supplemented by the arrival of new people bringing their own unique cultures to add to the mix; it is this strength and love of diversity frightens the establishment and it's why they're happy to have Farage out there, he's one of them through and through but manages to pull of this 'blokey' act that appeals especially to white males of a certain age.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 27 May 14 - 04:03 AM

Allan... I respect your approach to this, even if my own feelings don't coincide with yours on the Westlothian question, as it used to be called, and still may revert to..

However, removing a level of bureaucracy????

Since when did any government remove bureaucracy? For starters, they develop bureaucratic systems for the removal process and from that point on, Parkinson's Law takes over.

If you think of the UK structures that an independent Scotland would wish to set up for themselves, I genuinely reckon it would take a penny in the pound tax rise to cover them. (Shekel in the Groat or whatever..)

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 27 May 14 - 04:40 AM

Akenaton, I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by "Interesting Jim, never thought an admirer of McDairmid would be have any truck with faux liberalism or political correctness."
Living in a stable does not make me a horse and I opposed apartheid in South Africa while living in Scotland. I don't think one can judge the mood of Scottish people by living in one part of it. I watch the Scottish news and read all the Scottish rags every day and correspond regularly with political groups so I think I have a fair knowledge.
My politics in a nutshell: Scottish Independence first.

Back to the thread, Stu makes many good points but when the English voter looks for an alternative to Tory, Labour or Liberal they see UKIP and vote accordingly for some of the reasons Stu points out. Where is the vision for a new, fresh England? Getting out of the EU and blaming immigrants for the lack of housing or job opportunities? And by the way Musket, the West Lothian question, Trident and the House of Lords all disappear with Independence. Maybe if there was an English party which advocated and believed in these policies, UKIP might disappear.

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 27 May 14 - 04:52 AM

Yes Jim, and read my first line. I wasn't assuming the yes vote will prevail. The EU elections (and council elections south of the border) are sinking in. People are waking up to the reality of consequences of going somewhere they haven't been before, and the implications of this.

Salmond's lack of answers to pertinent questions and assurances he is in no position to give may work for The Morningside Lunching Ladies Association, may even work for old men who wear tweeds and the occasional tartan, but real people worried about real job security?

Waking up to change isn't the fun it is cracked up to be, as many people seem to be saying. "I gave a protest vote, didn't think the bugger would be elected" seems to be the pub talk where I live. Howsabout your neck of the woods?

Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 27 May 14 - 05:10 AM

100