BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 09:22 AM

"I guess you really don't have any evidence to support your allegations against me. "
Allegations- what allegations?
I have responded to your unforgivable suggestion that your own septic tank would not be unsuitable to use as a burial-place.
In reply to your @a few bad apples" and "dim and distant" arguments, have pointed out that it is the church that is at fault for facilitating the pedophile attacks in the first place and that they continue to hide the documented facts from the victims and their survivors - that is just about the limit of my "allegations" all the rest has been information I have supplied, which you have yet to directly respond to.
"but yet you state an agenda:"
If that is an agenda, it certainly isn't one of my making.
The church is battling to maintain its grip on the education of children here i Ireland; it continues to use its power to prevent new laws on pregnancy termination (despite two high-profile cases of deaths having been caused by the present ones) and homosexuality.
If this is an agenda, the it is far higher up the packing order than anybody here.
Wake up and smell the coffee Joe
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 06:03 AM

I respect your standpoint, Joe, as always. But I would like to point out that the murderer of the young woman 'is now in his fifties'. Unfortunately, the dead woman is not and never will be. And the very fact he committed this crime on parole would seem to me to justify the fears many people express about 'letting out' offenders. As you know, I used to visit prisoners, and had a naive feeling of sympathy with them and a wish to do some good for them. However (as you also know) my naivety gave way to cynicism. I'm on the side of the law-abiders. One can't have a foot in both camps.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 05:37 AM

... E V E R

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 05:35 AM

I think it's time that we stop attempting to prosecute people for crimes they committed during World War II. The wrong done was terrible, but World War II ended 69 years ago. Nothing can be done to fix those things now. -Joe-
.,,.
I don't think the point is to 'fix' anything, Joe; but to demonstrate, not least to the perpetrators themselves, that some crimes are literally and absolutely unforgivable, and that no statute of limitation, emotional as well as legal or forensic, can be permitted to apply to them. It needs to be shown that, in certain instances, it is right that there should be 'no hiding place'.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 04:39 AM

Yeah, but you have to think about more than what will satisfy victims, Eliza. I know a very smart and dedicated attorney who has worked for years in the victims' rights movements. Her sister was murdered by a boyfriend over 25 years ago, and the boyfriend went to prison. The mother and other family members have been avid opponents of parole ever since, and they get hundreds of people to show up in protest every time anyone comes up for parole, and especially the man who murdered my friend's sister.

And I sympathize with this family completely, and I do my best to avoid conflict with this woman. I know them quite well, and I know how much they're still hurting. But this man committed one crime in his life, a crime of passion when he was twenty. Now he's almost fifty, and an objective mind can wonder what good it does to keep him in prison at taxpayer expense. Maybe it's better to let the guy out and give him the chance to do something constructive to repay what he's done. Maybe punishment is not the only answer.

We all do things that are wrong, and there is at least some requirement for punishment and reparation when we do such things. Maybe positive responses can be a more appropriate solution, but we must not forget the concerns and needs of the victims in the process.

---

Jim Carroll, I guess you really don't have any evidence to support your allegations against me. All you can do is repeat your allegations, again with no evidence. Yes, I am well aware that much harm was done in these institutions fifty years ago. And yes, I am reading a lot and trying to learn the truth and the lessons behind it all.

But having worked thirty years as an investigator, I have an annoying habit of looking for facts and evidence and data that are unclouded by propaganda. I can't help it. I want to know the truth.

You say you have no agenda, Jim, but yet you state an agenda: We also suggest that a body such as the Catholic Church has proved itself unsuitable to be involved in anything other than spiritual guidance - certainly not influence on our politics, on sexual practices and on medical procedures and the church has proved beyond doubt that they are not to be trusted where children are concerned.

I think I'd agree that the Catholic Church has had far too much influence on legislation and government operations in Ireland. Church and state should not be bedfellows, and they certainly have been in bed together in Ireland for far too long - but they do seem to be moving apart. But still, your position implies a need for total suppression of church, allowing it to speak only on what you deem to be "spiritual" matters. I think it is important that Church speak strongly on moral matters as a counterbalance against State. And to my mind (and according to Catholic teaching), sexual conduct is a relatively minor aspect of morality. The moral issues of peace and poverty are far more important than the issue of sexual behavior, and many churches have been powerful voices on behalf of the poor and against warfare.

As for dealing with children, I would certainly agree that all children should have the option of non-religious education, and I don't think taxpayers should pay for any sort of religious education. Despite the fact that there have been many abuses, especially in Ireland, I think that church institutions and schools have often done a great service in the education and care of children, so each situation must be considered individually instead of being subjected to another of your blanket condemnations.

No doubt, there have been many abuses that warrant condemnation. But many children, myself included, have had wonderful experiences and excellent education in church-operated institutions.

So, Mr. Carroll, er...."Jim," I think you need to work on your logic.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 03:42 AM

I don't entirely agree with you Joe. 'Wherever and whenever it happened' would imply that even 'old' crimes shouldn't go unpunished. Retribution is what most victims want. And while paedophiles and abusers are sitting in prison, they aren't abusing anyone. Result!

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 03:35 AM

"Care to find an example where I said such a thing, Mr. Carroll? "
Well Mr Joe (don't you find this hostile formality as childish as I do?
You have persistently talked about agendas and attacks on the church rather than address the actual events under discussion and their implications
"But if we dwell on crime and expend all our energy extracting payment for crime"
As with the 'septic tank' red herring, you continue to either miss or avoid the point.
Nobody is calling for punishment - as far as I can see, they never have.
Those of us concerned about the events are asking for recognition of the wrongs done to the victims - slow enough to obtain from the government, virtually existent from the church.
We also suggest that a body such as the Catholic Church has proved itself unsuitable to be involved in anything other than spiritual guidance - certainly not influence on our politics, on sexual practices and on medical procedures.
You really seem to be totally unaware of the influence on your church these events have had here.
Attendance at masses have radically diminished, even here in the faithful west, recruitment into the clergy has reached crisis point in some parts of the country, and the clergy as a whole have lost the respect of many believers.
The effects of all this have been traumatic on many of the people I know and count among my friends (and relatives)
Your ignoring this situation is little more than self harm.
Personally, as an atheist, I should be happy about this, but I would far rather people made their minds up on the question on the basis of rational thinking rather than on the behaviour of criminal priests and a defensive and secretive hierarchy.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 03:15 AM

Al Whittle brings up a couple of examples: some stuff like the Spanish Inquisition and the abuse by a priest of my cousin when he was a kid - just unforgiveable

And he's right - such things are unforgiveable.

I get such things thrown at me all the time, because I'm one of those horrible, unsympathetic, criminal-coddling people who works for jail reform and against capital punishment. The argument of the horror and frequency of crime is indeed a powerful and valid argument, and it must not be ignored - wherever and whenever it happened, and whoever committed the crime. And that argument is particularly strong when the crime was done under the guise of a religion that preaches love of neighbor.

But rational people don't favor crime or criminals, or deny that the crimes were committed. People work for a tempered response to crime not because they favor crime, but because they think there should be limits to the extent a civilized society will go in its response to crime. I think some people have figured out that retribution for crime simply doesn't work. Especially for horrible crimes against children, nothing can be done to repay and repair the damage done. So, all that can be done is to fix the problem so it's unlikely to happen again, and do our best to heal the trauma that was caused.

We can't deny that crime happens - it happens all the time, and sometimes the criminals are people that we know and love. And when the criminals are our own people, it's hard for us to believe the allegations, no matter what amount of proof is provided. Those criminals must be punished, but then I think that most must be given a chance to reform their lives - even though the full price of the crime can never be extracted, and "justice" can never fully be satisfied. And certainly we must do all we can to ensure the healing of the effects of the crime and just compensation to victims.

But if we dwell on crime and expend all our energy extracting payment for crime, we hurt ourselves. And we sometimes end up extracting payment from people who are no more guilty of the crime than we ourselves are.

So, it's an issue that must be explored honestly. I think our primary goal should be to do our best to heal individuals and society and the injury done to them by crime - and trying to prevent such crime from happening again.

When the crime happened long ago, I think our approach must be different. There comes a point in time where nothing can be done, since the evidence is cold and the criminals are elderly or dead. Instead of trying to punish wrongdoers and compensate victims, we must study such crimes to learn how to stop them from happening again.

And although I seem to be in the minority on this, I think it's time that we stop attempting to prosecute people for crimes they committed during World War II. The wrong done was terrible, but World War II ended 69 years ago. Nothing can be done to fix those things now.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:16 AM

Jim Carroll says: Some of us have been told by Joe that the opinions we hold are not valid because we are atheists and therefore we have an agenda behind what we say and believe.

Care to find an example where I said such a thing, Mr. Carroll? I question the validity of opinions because of lack of evidence and rationality and context. The reason motivating people to post such opinions may be the agenda, but I question opinions only if they don't make sense.

This statement of yours is one example of an invalid statement. I dare you to find evidence to support your allegation.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 10:07 PM

what the pope owes the faithful is honesty. He can start by getting a new spokesman or spokeswoman..the current one seems disentangled from the truth. We have a church that is corrupt to the core..you can't tell where the Mafia starts and the church stops. There is systemic abuse of children..it is built in. There is systemic cruelty built in. We have cardinals and bishops dropping like flies from various crimes that either they committed or oversaw. The pope is trying. If he tries too hard he will be murdered, I think it goes without saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 04:28 PM

well I've had a look through guests posting, and to tabulate his brilliant debating angles seem to be:-

1) the Roman Catholic Church are a bad lot
2) the Pope hasn't admitted they are a rotten lot
3) there hasn't been an official report calling them a bad lot
4) Joe is 'in denial'

in rebuttal

1) Most catholics admit the church has done some bad stuff. that's the nature of faith. rather like bravery in battle - it requires suspension of the imagination (Hemingway). if a soldier thinks of all the bullets that could kill him, he would be paralysed with fear and could not function. similarly if the believer thought about the likelihood of man nailed to cross being the son of god, they couldn't believe - many need the theatre and poetry of church ritual to make that leap of belief

2) The Pope has the precedent of Gerard Ratner to know what would happen if he came clean. He owes to the faithful to put on a brave face and front his product.

3) Who do do suggest to examine the Church....... Which Magazine?

4) Joe has admitted the church has faults and he has admitted witnessing the skulduggery. But he needs the church. Leave him be. Stop accusing him. Guest wants more than he has to give. The rest is courtesy. And what if he is in denial. He's human. A great human being. Talk to him with respect

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 03:06 PM

I reckon that was an insightful post, al, for what its worth.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 07:05 AM

Sorry Al - I'm not accusing anybody of having an agenda - you, least of all.
What I am saying, before this gets bogged down in "agendas", alongside anonymity, is, as far as I can see, 'Guest' has made a number of valid points and it doesn't matter a rats arse whether or not we know who he/she is or not.
Please do not allow the anonymity that most members of this forum choose to post under, act as a diversion to the points being made.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 05:58 AM

an agenda. yes I suppose I have.

haven't we all got agendas - its not like we've all emerged from a vacuum.
why wouldn't you have an agenda.

the fact is you can't 'deal with' and address every legitimate concern, and Joe is wise enough to realise he can't answer every criticism of the Catholic church - he's too intelligent to attempt to blether down and brush aside every argument.

some stuff like the Spanish Inquisition and the abuse by a priest of my cousin when he was a kid - just unforgiveable -whatever Christ commanded of us - we are not made from stone..

but I have a friend recently bereaved - who derives great sustenance from the Catholic church. support better than I can give. somehow they seem to have something to give which some people need. you have to understand jim, there is no way of annulling all our agendas.

we should not ask or expect it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 04:37 AM

Sorry - have I missed something here?
It seems to me that 'Guest' - whoever he/she is - has put forward a number of valid and important points here which have been stifled and ignored by cries of - "how dare you sir/madam - are you a member of this exclusive club - I'll call the doorman to see you out!"
Insults?
Some of us have been told by Joe that the opinions we hold are not valid because we are atheists and therefore we have an agenda behind what we say and believe.
Don't know about anybody else, but I find that pretty ****** insulting.
Methinks, the lady doth protest too much.
How about dealing with what he/she has said rather than hiding behind his/her anonymity.
I don't know who Akenaton or Keith A or Bobad are, but I spend a great deal of time and effort responding to views they express which I find offensive, and sometimes downright dangerous.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 04:15 AM

anyway - the point is this. I imagine Joe finds it hard enough having to defend almost single handedly an institution from which he derives spiritual sustenance - defend it from his friends. good people who are there in the telephone book -genuine people...

that some cyber generated ectoplasm should appear out of cyberspace and heap personal insults is horrible, and then disappear like the fucking Lone Ranger....

say! who was that masked man! look! he's shit on the carpet!
that was the Lone Ranger, ...the big one is his horse, and the Indian's there to wipe his arse! that's the paper!

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 10:54 AM

Wouldn't it just!

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 08:04 AM

"The most important news item at present seems to be the 'tragic' loss of a couple of Garth Brooks concerts in Croke Park."
We do have our priorities over here!
It seems he's quite likely to cancel all his concerts - wouldn't it be wonderful if politicians were as reliable in living up to their promises?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:41 AM

Thanks Jim, I do take your point.

"Here in Ireland there is a bit of a lull in the proceedings". - I've been in Ireland myself since the middle of May, and you're right, almost nothing on the news recently. The most important news item at present seems to be the 'tragic' loss of a couple of Garth Brooks concerts in Croke Park.

As you said though, for sure more coming down the road.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 03:20 AM

" I did say MORE likely to occur."
Sorry Rog - 'twas but a joke - I tend to need to lighten these discussions for myself in order to return to them - I find some of them extremely harrowing.
I personally have never been comfortable with the idea of discussing with people whose names I don't know - somehow, addressing replies to names which seem downright discourteous doesn't seem right.
On the other hand, to make a rule for guests on one type of posting seems discriminating to those who, for one reason or another, don't wish to be identified, doesn't seem the way to go.
I don't think you have killed this thread - far from it.
Here in Ireland there is a bit of a lull in the proceedings - it has disappeared from the letter pages of the newspapers for the present, but no doubt, it will be back.
Ireland has been in the process of reading the entrails of its state and religious-run organisations for over a decade now, and no doubt, will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
Further issues are lurking in the shadows; the testing of untried drugs on the children in some of these institutions, the conditions in nursing homes and homes for the elderly and in mental homes being among them.
It has never been an attack on religion - if it had it would have been a severe case of self-harm as it is Catholics who have been in the forefront of the campaigns.
It is, hopefully, the long-overdue and much-needed cleaning out of an Augean stable - more power to that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:55 PM

Did I kill this thread, or are people just argued out?

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:36 AM

I agree with Rog Peek's suggestion that 'guests' should not be permitted to post to discussion threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:18 AM

Can't read my own post! MOST, not MORE, but anyway you know what I mean.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:15 AM

Jim - I did say MORE likely to occur. I've only been here since 2007, but it certainly has been my experience that this is the case. If you disagree, then fine. 'Twas just a suggestion.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 09:31 AM

"But if a person is making critical remarks about me, then I think he/she is rude and a coward if he/she posts anonymously."
.,.,

Indeed, Joe ... Or even under a consistent pseudonym. I think the person who calls himself 'GUEST giovanni' & has for some unfathomable reason taken to abusing Richard Bridge & me on another thread just as contemptible, hiding behind an assumed name like that. Not that I am particularly bothered by his gadfly buzzing; but I think the point holds here.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:19 AM

"and therefore where insults are most likely to occur?"
I take it you've never participated in a "what if folk" debate Rog!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Rog Peek
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 06:37 AM

"If a person is an occasional visitor here and posts purely objective information, particularly if it's musical information, then I have no problem with that person not using a name - and we don't require use of names because we don't want to scare away occasional visitors who simply want to provide information or ask a question.

But if a person is making critical remarks about me, then I think he/she is rude and a coward if he/she posts anonymously."

In complete agreement with you on this Joe, so wouldn't a sensible compromise be that Guests are only allowed to post on the music related section and not the B/S section, which is where the most contentious topics are posted, and therefore where insults are most likely to occur?

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 06:12 AM

and its destructive as well Joe.

Some piece of shit called my website a shambles. and to be honest - the website was never there to get gigs. it was place I could publish my songs and explain them - write essays about them, without pissing about with halfwit record companies.

Fasthosts who were the web providers had been arseholes for years, absolute hell to deal with.

So the upshot was - I let the site go. Despite the fact there was twelve years work on it.

I can't see any justification for these bloody stinkpots -popping in to piss on us.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 01:06 AM

If a person is an occasional visitor here and posts purely objective information, particularly if it's musical information, then I have no problem with that person not using a name - and we don't require use of names because we don't want to scare away occasional visitors who simply want to provide information or ask a question.

But if a person is making critical remarks about me, then I think he/she is rude and a coward if he/she posts anonymously.

That's my opinion. That is not Mudcat policy, but I do believe I have a right to an opinion.

And the unnamed Guest in this thread has made all sorts of critical remarks that affect me directly, so I think I have a right to say that I think his anonymity is cowardly.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 04:28 PM

well in a way...theres the rules, but theres also the spirit of mudcat. which joe and max have done their damndest to make a friendly and inclusive place.

I hate it when guest fires a off a few highly insulting and personal remarks, and Jim - you've been round here long enough to know what I mean. stuff like that feels like an attack by apaches - they melt back into cyberspace having inflicted as much vitriol on the atmosphere of mudcat as they can. Martin Gibson was a sweetheart compared to those buggers.

I quite like it when you insult me Jim - because fundamentally, you're an okay guy. I hate it when some turd I don't know, but obviously knows me, spews out a piece of insulting, undermining malice.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 03:08 PM

'Our too-rude-to-name-himself Guest asks'

I agree recognisble identities on posts are much preferable but as long as the site allows anonymous posting or tolerates posters using several identities etc etc any name calling of people who are within what the rules of the site allow, is highly misplaced.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 03:02 PM

" no matter what cowardly nameless people"
Are we to understand that those who choose not to reveal their names on this forum are henceforth to be regarded "cowardly" or "too-rude-to-name-himself"?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 02:52 PM

Our too-rude-to-name-himself Guest asks, "Now then, where's the same with all the RC priests who did the same?"

Well, in Ireland, you can read the Ryan Report, or near-daily articles in the Irish Times.

In the U.S., try http://bishopaccountability.org/.

It's not like these things are deep, dark secrets any more.

The Wikipedia article on Catholic Sex Abuse Cases has a bibliography and filmography that will keep you enthralled for years.

I can't tell if this rude Guest is the same rude Guest that said, "the conclusion is, "Guilty as charged" for all that Joe wants it to be otherwise."

Yes, I would much prefer that it be otherwise, but the fact of the matter is that a number of priests were guilty of molesting children.

And indeed, conditions were very poor in Catholic and government-run institutions in Ireland in the first half of the twentieth century. A religion that professes the need to "love thy neighbor" betrayed that principle in the operation of these institutions. Alas, I wish it had been otherwise, but I cannot deny that these things happened.

And for that matter, I never have denied that these things happened, and I have worked since the 1960s to right these wrongs - no matter what cowardly nameless people would have you think about me. Why would I do otherwise?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 01:05 PM

The NHS published its investigation into Savile five days ago, I think you'll find. Another prominent Australian, Rolf Harris, has also just been sent down. Now then, where's the same with all the RC priests who did the same?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 12:55 PM

There is plenty we can do about the situation in Tuam and elsewhere. The mothers and babies are still alive and are coming forward. For one thing we can listen to them. For another we can let the truth play out without trying to block it..let's wait for all the facts, let's not get too excited..other religions are just as guilty etc., they hate us because we are Catholic, Salvation Army, Christians and we were told we could expect to be persecuted.    just let the truth come out as it is violently trying to right now. that alone will be very healthy. A knowledge among current caretakers that the world is watching is going to benefit everyone. Situations in institutions right now will improve with better focus. Like the orphanages in Tibet that a friend visits..where they break the childrens' arms for some reason..take out the toys that are donated only when there are visitors or inspectors...don't stifle the truth, don't expect that people running institutions can not get jaded and corrupted, regardless of their good intentions. Assume that all over the world equal or worse things are happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Andrez
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 08:27 AM

Not a problem Janie, thanks :-)

To respond to one comment above, the reason for posting the media watch story was to highlight the way the Murdoch press promoted the story in Oz and how his lot in the UK then took up the story from their Oz paper with bugger all fact-checking and research and absolutely no interest in the underlying issues and reprinted it with banner headlines just to flog more of their newspapers to people who are happy to have their prejudices and stereotypes reinforced and untroubled by critical thinking.

The reason for the other link was simply to share with those interested some current information about child abuse that has been happening in Oz through institutions run by a range of religious and non-religious organisations. Today we heard about the harm experienced by children in state care:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-02/siblings-sexual-abuse-highlights-flaws-in-victorian-state-care/5566378

Until we get a clearer picture through better evidence (i.e. not the Murdoch press) about what actually happened at Tuam, I'm not sure there is much we can do about those potentially awful events by now.

That said regardless of where we live now we have a responsibility to do what we can to see that children can be safe and free from harm regardless of whose care they are in. If those people or institutions let children get hurt then the book (legal not holy) should be thrown at them. Hear that Harris?

Cheers,

Andrez

PS: Is there going to be any UK investigation into who knew what and how Saville got away with his 'capers' over the years?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Janie
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 11:20 PM

Thank you, Andrez.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 09:56 PM

metaphorical herrings in the metaphorical soup

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 12:26 PM

If it were Australian soup Al, they'd use red snapper not red herring...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 10:46 AM

throwing red herrings in the soup.....hmmmm!

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 10:13 AM

And what, pray, does an inconclusive report about Australia have to do with Ireland, Andrez, other than throw yet another red herring into the soup? And for the rest of it, that's been rehashed till the cows come home here and the conclusion is, "Guilty as charged" for all that Joe wants it to be otherwise.

You wouldn't happen to be Cathlic yourself, now, would you, by any chance?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Andrez
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 08:55 AM

Working from the premise of not confusing the issue with facts, regardless of what the RC church and its adherants may or may not have done elswhere or elsewhen, here are a few 'facts' about the Tuam story and how the media have used it to push their various agendas.

Check this out. The Truth Behind Tuam

Cheers,

Andrez

PS: Professionally, I have contributed to several submissions to our own Australian Royal Commission into Institutional responses to Child Sexual Abuse. Their Interim report has just been released for those who are interested in reading factual stuff as opposed to conjecture and media hype.

Royal Commission Interim Report June 30, 2014

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:38 AM

If a male teacher abuses a minor, let's say a girl. It is because he is a pervert, not because he has a teaching degree, is a heterosexual, may be a Lutheran, nor because his favourite colour is blue.

Linking unrelated dots, and putting forward sketchy and unreliable statistics (and making some up) in a clear attempt to to demonize homosexuality does nothing to increase the understanding of unfortunate past happenings in the RC church. Given it is not a first attempt to demonize homosexuality, I suspect few are fooled by such approaches and see it for what it really is.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 02:48 AM

Seeing people as being of equal status based on their sexual orientation is not twisted political ideology.

Homophobia however, is twisted. Not to mention sick, horrid, disgraceful and pathetic.

Come to think of it, thanks to advances in safeguarding legislation, it is illegal to propogate it where Akenaton lives, making him an alleged criminal for incitement to hatred. Free speech is responsible speech. He props up his hate with lies and distorted information. Akenaton isn't fit to be responsible for his keyboard.

Yet he is quick to mention his solicitor whenever his own morals are brought up.

I find it fascinating that such people still exist in modern society. Still, time heals all wounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 02:31 AM

MG and ED, we are trying to determine why these rates of sexual abuse pertained in only the Catholic Church.

There are some pretty obvious factors that apply only to the Catholic Church and which may have a bearing....are they to be completely ignored because of a twisted political ideology?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 09:09 PM

"Does anyone seriously put forward the suggestion that heterosexuals are attracted sexually to their own gender?"

Well, one mudcat poster says it is more of a choice? Situational homosexuality is also a strong consideration?

Regardless, beyond homophobia, does it really matter if a representative group of priests snd monks lean towards their own sex, or not? If you arevnot a RC, "whatvdoesbit mattervtonyou, it is not your concern.

It is a different matter if any adult in a position of trust and power takes advantage of a minor, girl or boy, regardless if they are a priest, a nun, a minister, a teacher, a doctor,a baby sitter, a coach, or a scout or girl guide leader.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 05:26 PM

It is not rare at all. Time after time we hear about altar boys being raped. That is pedophilia. They call 12 year olds non-children. What dumb idiocy. Of course a 12 year old is a child. Of course a 13 year old is as well. A 17 year old is not...the idiots like donahue keep saying they are not children because they have reached puberty..well, little girls are reaching puberty at the age of 9...are they not children?

It is fine with me if 100% of priests are homosexual, male or female. It is not fine with me if any at all priests, male or female are child abusers and twisters of truth by calling it by another name.

I do not care what adults do with other non-exploited consensual other adults. It is no more my business than what my dentist does in consensual activity.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 03:24 PM

Firstly, paedophilia is very rare in the abuse committed by Catholic priest....even rarer than paedophilia in the general public.
84% of the abuse was committed by adult men against teenage boys and youths.   This is simple homosexual assault of minors.
Studies say that there are very high numbers of homosexuals in the priesthood, that there is a strong homosexual subculture in the seminaries (as Joe has noted)....56% of ordained priests interviewed agreed that this subculture existed.

Does anyone seriously put up the suggestion that heterosexuals are attracted sexually to their own gender?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 12:55 PM

Priests take a vow of celibacy, but they are human and the body's urges call.
The statement I quoted with the words "deeply rooted" came from a committee, not the pope. That remark and a couple of other responses tend toward condemnation of homosexuality as a contributor to molestation, which was not intended by my rather careless partial quotation.

There is no correlation that I know of between homosexuality and molestation tendencies.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 12:32 PM

do not count out satanism...case in the news of a priest who murdered a nun some time ago and satanism believed to be involved. Concerns it has happened at very high levels of Vatican.