BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine

Subject: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:57 PM

News services are reporting a Malaysian passenger jet with 298 people aboard was shot down neat Donetsk in the eastern Ukraine.
Parts of the plane were scattered over a 15 mile area.

A missile from pro-Russian fighters in the eastern Ukraine is blamed in some reports but nothing certain as yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:02 PM

I hope that the reports aren't true, but I suspect they are -- that the plane was shot down by a Bak missile.

Why in the name of God, Yahweh, and Allah would someone DO such a thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:06 PM

The flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur last reported from Ukraine.

A Russian GRU separatist leader named Strelkov reportedly admitted that he ordered the missile strike, thinking the plane was Ukrainian. Not verified at present.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:09 PM

Another report- pictures of wreckage



A Malaysia Airlines passenger plane went down today after the airline said it had "lost contact" with one of its flight over Ukraine near the Russian border.

The Boeing 777 plane -- Flight MH17 from Amsterdam to Kuala Lampur with 280 passengers and 15 crew members on board -- had its "last known position was over Ukraine airspace," the airline said.

The plane had left Amsterdam at 12:15 p.m. (local time) and was estimated to arrive in Kuala Lampur International Airport on Friday at 6:10 a.m. (local time), according to Malaysia Airlines.

Flight radar shows the plane was lost somewhere on the eastern border of Ukraine.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:37 PM

Associated Press journalists reported seeing Buk missile launchers near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhde. The system is effective to 25000 metres.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:44 PM

Terror for terror's sake?! I hope the folks who did this are swiftly caught, tried,and punished by being put in a drone at 30000', and shot down so they can feel the horror they caused by they're cowardly action.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:56 PM

GRABOVO Ukraine (Reuters) - Dozens of bodies were scattered around the smouldering wreckage of a passenger jet that crashed in a field in eastern Ukraine on Thursday, a Reuters reporter said.

An emergency services rescue worker said at least 100 bodies had so far been found at the scene, near the village of Grabovo, and that debris from the wreckage was spread across an area up to about 15 km (nine miles) in diameter.

Broken pieces of the wings were marked with blue and red paint - the same colours as the emblem of the Malaysian airline which lost track of a Boeing 777 en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur that was carrying almost 300 people.

"I was working in the field on my tractor when I heard the sound of a plane and then a bang and shots. Then I saw the plane hit the ground and break in two. There was thick black smoke," said a witness, who gave his name only as Vladimir.

A separatist rebel from nearby Krasnyi Luch who gave his name only as Sergei said: "From my balcony I saw a plane begin to descend from a great height and then heard two explosions.

He denied the rebels had shot the plane down.

"This could happen only if it was a fighter jet or a surface-to-air missile (that shot it down)," he told Reuters, saying the rebels did not have weapons capable of shooting shoot down a plane at such a height.

All 295 people aboard the plane were killed, a Ukrainian interior ministry official said, blaming "terrorists" using a ground-to-air missile.

Ukraine's prime minister called the downing of the flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur a "catastrophe".

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:59 PM

On Wednesday, the Russian separatists shot down two Ukrainian Sukho1-25 fighter jets, one by Suk missile, the other by a portable air-missile device.
The Separatists have sophisticated equipment that has been supplied by Russia.

In an allied report, the Buk missile system is being supplied to Syria by a Russian supplier.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 02:15 PM

The Washington Post pushed that out to my phone app this morning - deja vu for Malaysian Airlines - what a horrible year. And for the Russian's encroaching on Ukraine, this could be the mistake to push them back out again because they eyes of the world are all the more upon them.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 02:34 PM

A Ukrainian transport plane was shot down today by Separatists. The Ukrainian air forces can't operate in Russian Separatist-held areas.

Rebels in the Donetsk Peoples Republic denied any responsibility for the attack on the Malaysian aircraft.

23 Americans were aboard the downed Boeing 777 plane. British passports were found on some victims and there were at least four French nationals and a number of Dutch.

Reports from Reuters and Associated Press.


Increased sanctions against Russia are expected and have been threatened by Obama if Russia doesn't change course in Ukraine.
Hundreds of civilians have been killed.
(Reuters)

Without outside help, a large portion of eastern Ukraine may be lost; a region with much of Ukrainian industrial output.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:12 PM

The mysterious leader of Ukrainian separatist rebels boasted of shooting down a Ukrainian military aircraft just before news broke that Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed, according to reports.

An hour before news of the crash, Igor Strelkov reportedly wrote on Vkontakte, a popular Russian social media website, "In the district of Torez an An-26 was just shot down. It crashed somewhere near the Progress mine. We warned them not to fly in our skies."

The message was sent about 30 minutes after the plane is believed to have gone down. The post was later deleted and another post went up, blaming Ukrainian government forces for shooting down the passenger plane.

National Post

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:32 PM

I'm just waiting for Fox News to blame this on Obama's weakness. You know it's coming.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:52 PM

The Russian Separatists have announced that they have the flight recorder (black box). We may never find out what it recorded.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 06:23 PM

Last time this happened it was the US who shot, and I had one of the most embarrassing finding-out-you-are-a-racist moments of my life because of it...

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:24 PM

Truly shocking: the fact that it's Malaysian Airlines again (after the disappearance of the other plane in March) has you wondering if it's sheer coincidence or some sort of conspiracy.
Having flown from Europe to various Asian destinations on a number of occasions it did cross my mind that you would almost inevitably cross one or other war zone at some point - Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and now Ukraine. I understand that airlines are already altering their flight paths to avoid that part of Ukraine.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:18 AM

Err.. That wasn't Musket...

Musket is 100% signed in rather than guest as of last week.

I didn't read what it said. Was I being eloquent?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 05:03 AM

There can be little doubt what happened.
The separatist rebels have been shooting down government aircraft using Russian supplied missiles for some time.
It would not have been deliberate, and they will never admit responsibility.

Apart from the human tragedy, the most concerning issue is Putin's reckless enthusiasm for supplying advanced weapons to inflame such conflicts.
Without Putin's weapon supplies Assad would have been overthrown before Syria became such a catastrophe with no end remotely in sight.

If he starts interfering in the Baltic states there is a real threat to all our futures.

Why is Mudcat so obsessed only with Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 05:08 AM

Some odd turns of grammar in the spoof post, Musket: not like you!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 07:38 AM

I would tend to agree with you Keith that there is little doubt as to what happened, especially considering the intercepted radio exchanges between "Separatists" and "Russian" Security Forces shortly after the aircraft was shot down. The culprits would most probably be "Separatists" operating a missile system smuggled to them by the Russians or looted from a Ukranian Army base (As the "Separatists" do not have aircraft there is no reason for the Ukranian Armed Forces to have such systems deployed in the area - there being no air threat).

Trouble is these missiles are normally part of a larger integrated air defence system with quite complex and comprehensive command and control networks. Deployed in isolation and being operated in "local" control it becomes very difficult to positively identify your target before firing.

The aircraft should have been safe at its normal cruising altitude and its route was considered safe as the flight plan must have been filed and approved.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 07:46 AM

Once reasonable people know more, there will be reason to say "little doubt." Until then leave it to those for whom a blame in one direction is convenient for their agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 08:03 AM

A tragedy on many levels including the fact that there were as many as 100 people heading to the AIDS 2014 conference in Melbourne among them scores of leading AIDS research experts.

"The cure for AIDS may have been on that plane, we just don't know," Trevor Stratton, an AIDS consultant who was attending a pre-event in Sydney, told the ABC network.

"You can't just help but wonder about the kind of expertise on that plane."

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 10:15 AM

What "agenda" musket?
I have none.

"little doubt" was accurate.
Only Russia disputes it, as they would.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 11:15 AM

Not at all, Keith. China disputes it as well- as I'm sure Syria does.The people who said last year that there was "little doubt" about who gassed civilians in Ghouta are the same ones who say today that there is little doubt that Ukraine rebels are responsible .

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 11:21 AM

It would have been quite reasonable for the Ukraine to have had a Bak missile system deployed in the Eastern Ukraine, which could have been captured by the rebels. But I am no expert on the Ukrainian air defense system.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Stu
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 11:28 AM

"Why is Mudcat so obsessed only with Israel?"

If you need to ask that question, you probably won't understand the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:30 PM

They say that the Buk weapons system is very difficult to work . If the rebels did have them they would have needed expert support - the missiles are guided by a radar station . The rebels couldn't have used BUKs without Russian back-up . If the Russians were involved they would have known that it wasn't a military aircraaft.
I read a comment to an article this morning saying "Putin's plane was scheduled to take the same route only one hour later."
Did anyone else see anything on this?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:32 PM

Q:Why is Mudcat so obsessed only with Israel?

A: It isn't. Certain folks like yourself, FW, may be.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM

Stu- Why don't you give it your best shot?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 01:33 PM

Curious that Keith thought i meant him.

I did, amongst others, but nice to him recognise his faults, even if he is too far up his own arse to address them.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 01:51 PM

it could be anyone who wishes to inflame the situation, even the CIA.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: pdq
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:39 PM

I will not guess who dunnit. Proof should come out eventually.

I just feel that it is no coinsidence that this is the second Maylasia Airlines Boeing 777 to fall out of the sky in the past few months.

Maylasia is 62% Muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:52 PM

I suspect that Putin now finds himself with a big, big problem over this foul atrocity; and, up to this point, from his point of view, the Ukrainian situation was all going reasonably well.

There is no doubt that the revolution in Ukraine presented Russia and Putin with big problems. The most urgent and pressing was the potential for losing the warm water ports of the Crimean peninsula. Putin acted quickly, decisively and ruthlessly and annexed Crimea. This was almost certainly an illegal act but who was going to stop him?

Eastern Ukraine represented a bigger problem but Putin took the route of arming Russian-speaking Ukrainian separist insurgents (the sort of thing that the west regularly does in other parts of the world). The trouble is, as the west regularly finds, such insurgents can be unpredictable, ill-disciplined and impulsive. Now they've gone and shot down a civilian aircraft with missiles that Putin, almost certainly, supplied them with. Whatever the truth of the matter is, most of the world community is pointing the finger of blame at Putin and Russia. What are you going to do, Vladimir? For all our sakes, it better be something good!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:09 PM

Curious that Keith thought i meant him.

Well, you did actually quote me in the post!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:39 PM

Amongst others, you aren't that special. Daft as a brush and can't help letting your Col. Blimp persona betray you, but just one of too many to be honest.

For instance, not even you would come out with what pdq just put.

Malaysia is also 46% men.

What's more, it is 54% women!

I thought the sick twats were posting on Mail Online, not Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:52 PM

Inevitably I find myself thinking of previous times this kind of lethal stupidity has happened, mosr especially the time when Iran Air Flight 655, with 290 people on board, including 60 children, was shot down by US Navy cruiser USS vincennes, on July 3 1988.

Trigger happy military stupidity, rather than calculated terrorism, i suppose, as will no doubt turn out to be the case this time also, whoever turns out to have been responsible. The men of the Vincennes all received Combat action Ribbons, and the commander was given a Navy Commendation Medal at the end of the tour. I hope the people who did this will get treated a bit more fittingly. I rather suspect they will, if Putin has any say in it...

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 06:21 PM

sep-a-ra-tist ... I think ...? But definitely not "separist"!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 05:24 AM



No.
You only quoted me.
That is how I knew you were referring to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 05:25 AM

That last referred to Musket's statement, "Amongst others"

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 06:54 AM

up to this point, from his [Putin's]point of view, the Ukrainian situation was all going reasonably well.
The same happened in Syria last year . The situation was "all going reasonably well" for the Syrian army when the chemical attack on Ghouta occurred, which the Western media immediately blamed on the Syrian government . The media said at the time that it was "probably" a Syrian army commander acting without direct orders from Assad but that the regime that Assad headed was responsible
" Kerry publicly cited last week: intercepted communications telling Syrian military units to prepare for the chemical strikes.
"The Obama administration maintains it intercepted communications from a senior Syrian official on the use of chemical weapons.........."
The statement from Kiev yesterday :
"SBU intercepts phone conversations of separatists admitting downing a civilian plane...."

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,SB
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 08:52 AM

Now the scum are stealing items from the passengers.

"Reports of looting have also emerged as victims' bodies and belongings remain strewn across the area two days after the crash.

Sky's Michelle Clifford, in Donetsk, said: "These reports are gaining currency about looting, that valuables, credit cards are being taken from bags from the wreckage, and in some cases from bodies."

====

Putin and his cronies should HANG for this. And in London all we get is pro-Russian biased news because the Evening Standard is owned by the f'ing Russian KGB. 'Boycot RT' is an active group on Facebook too. Lies, lies and propaganda. And #$%$ - now we hear that the terrorists are stealing "valuables, credit cards are being taken from bags from the wreckage, and in some cases from bodies." Absolute #$%$. Appalling country, appalling people. Marx must be turning in his grave.

====

This site will be desecrated and pillaged by both the terrorists and Russians. Only way to secure it is with a MASSIVE show of force by the international community - ideally flown in and supported by as much air power as possible.. Provocative - so was shooting down an airliner then making up BS excuses. The evidence will be destroyed and that will end all investigations. The Ukrainian "rebels/terrorists / Russians have no respect for human life - their history shows this all too well!

According to news the black boxes have been confiscated and are now in Russia - any bets they will have been "damaged beyond repair" in the crash.

====

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,SB
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 08:54 AM

And was there a "MASSIVE show of force by the international community" - NO!!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 09:12 AM

"Last time this happened it was the US who shot..." (Mrr)

Shooting down of civilian airliners between 1988 (the shooting down Mrr recollects) and today I could find:

September 1993: "...three Tupolev civilian airliners belonging to Transair Georgia were hit by missiles fired by rebels in Sukhumi, Abkhazia, Georgia. A total of 136 perished in the attacks." (Wikipedia)
The Abkhazian war of secession from Georgia was strongly supported by Russia. That might ring a bell.

October, 20th, 1998, "Rebels in eastern Congo shot down a Congo Airlines passenger jet" (Boston Globe). No Russian involvement!

October, 4th, 2001. A Ucrainian missile downs an Air Siberia plane killing all 78 on board.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 10:48 AM

When an Albanian refugee caravan was bombed in Kosovo, the US government/press insisted that it was done by the Yugoslav air force; until independent journalists went to the scene and photographed the bomb casings. After that they admitted it was a US bombing but claimed that it was a mistake. They never mentioned the fact that this particular caravan had been going farther inside Kosovo, as ordered by the Yugoslav government to get them out of a probable war zone near the border, and contrary to KLA orders to go across the border.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 10:51 AM

The rebels' stated position is that they have missiles which can shoot down low-flying aircraft such as attacking fighter jets and military transport planes coming in for a landing, but none that can hit a plane at the much higher altitude of the Malaysian airliner.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 10:59 AM

"Stu- Why don't you give it your best shot?"

What's the point?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM

More than 250 people -- including infants and children -- are killed by a missile attack on an civilian aircraft. There is international outrage, but no hard evidence yet as to who fired the thing and such may never be released.

So you argue from media reports and rumors. You call each other names, insult each other. Why? Because you are impotent to do anything else.

Like so many before me, I shall never post again to any thread that has the slightest political overtones.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 05:36 AM

Politics makes me want to puke!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 10:15 AM

politics is what people do - you can't get away from what people do

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 10:53 AM

This is from a Russian facebook friend.

First traces of the warhead. This was not BUK-M1

Source: http://guruinterneta.livejournal.com/32590.html

Pin warhead! Missiles used to hit air targets use a special warhead, which is only characterisitc for them with very specific traces. It consists of a bundle of sharpened pins, which are sometimes welded together (sometimes not). An opening charge is installed behind this bundle, this is basically what the "pin and shrapnel" warhead consists of. When it approaches the target at the minimal distance the warhead explodes the opening charge and this bundle of pins flies to the target at almost cosmic speed. When hitting the target such pin – only by its kinetic energy – is capable to shoot through the plane destroying the internal structure of the aircraft and completely crashing the on-board equipment. The pin kinetics is so powerful that it can even split the titanium spar in halves. Such warhead has one big advantage – the missile does not need to be perfectly accurate – it explodes before contacting the target and the pins are shot in the direction of the airplane n a cone. Even if only 2-3% of these pins hit the target, the plane is doomed – a hole in the wing or fuselage, or simply damaged cladding of the plane flying at trans-sonic speed the enormous relative airflow will destroy the damaged wing up to the very spar in less than a minute. If there is a dozen of such holes – there is simply no chance for anything.

But this is not the main point. Pin and shrapnel warheads are mainly used on air-to-air missiles because of their compact size. The anti-aircraft defense systems prefer to use high explosive and shrapnel warheads, because in a number of cases they are more efficient than pin and shrapnel ones. The picture we have here shows cladding damage characteristic for pin and shrapnel warheads. High explosive and shrapnel warhead damage looks different. This means that no BUK system hit this aircraft. Here we are dealing with either R-27 Topor or R-73 missiles, which Ukrainians have plenty of and which are installed on MIG-29 and SU-27
Photo: First traces of the warhead. This was not BUK-M1

Source: http://guruinterneta.livejournal.com/32590.html

Pin warhead! Missiles used to hit air targets use a special warhead, which is only characterisitc for them with very specific traces. It consists of a bundle of sharpened pins, which are sometimes welded together (sometimes not). An opening charge is installed behind this bundle, this is basically what the "pin and shrapnel" warhead consists of. When it approaches the target at the minimal distance the warhead explodes the opening charge and this bundle of pins flies to the target at almost cosmic speed. When hitting the target such pin – only by its kinetic energy – is capable to shoot through the plane destroying the internal structure of the aircraft and completely crashing the on-board equipment. The pin kinetics is so powerful that it can even split the titanium spar in halves. Such warhead has one big advantage – the missile does not need to be perfectly accurate – it explodes before contacting the target and the pins are shot in the direction of the airplane n a cone. Even if only 2-3% of these pins hit the target, the plane is doomed – a hole in the wing or fuselage, or simply damaged cladding of the plane flying at trans-sonic speed the enormous relative airflow will destroy the damaged wing up to the very spar in less than a minute. If there is a dozen of such holes – there is simply no chance for anything.

But this is not the main point. Pin and shrapnel warheads are mainly used on air-to-air missiles because of their compact size. The anti-aircraft defense systems prefer to use high explosive and shrapnel warheads, because in a number of cases they are more efficient than pin and shrapnel ones. The picture we have here shows cladding damage characteristic for pin and shrapnel warheads. High explosive and shrapnel warhead damage looks different. This means that no BUK system hit this aircraft. Here we are dealing with either R-27 Topor or R-73 missiles, which Ukrainians have plenty of and which are installed on MIG-29 and SU-27
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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 11:04 AM

You are very gullible Mick.