BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 11:39 AM

This is one act of war that I expect will never be definitively proven because the primary evidence will not be made available to Western countries. Much looting of the scene has apparently taken place, and Ukraine separatists are impeding expert investigation, according to various news sources.

I am saddened by the useless deaths of the passengers and crew of the plane by trigger happy thugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 02:05 PM

Just when the news out of eastern Ukraine couldn't get any worse, it did. Separatists controlling the area of of the MH17 wreckage have declared that they can only ensure international investigators will have access to the crash site if Ukraine agrees to a truce: "We declare that we will guarantee the safety of international experts on the scene as soon as Kiev concludes a ceasefire agreement," said Andre Purgin, a senior leader of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic. The declaration amounts to blackmail, as Nina Ivanovna put it; The separatists are holding the bodies of MH17 passengers hostage in exchange for territory.

New Republic

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 02:28 PM

Saw film strip on BBC news today, showing a Separatist carrying what looks like the flight recorder (black box). It has been previously reported that they took the recorder. The rebels say that they will hand over the recorder to the International team. ? Could it be compromised? Inn any case, it will have indication of loss of all systems, but that would be expected.

BBC and Al Jazeera both had film clips of what looks like the missile launcher system that fires Buk missiles being moved, but questionable as to where the film was shot. It was indicated that it was being removed from Separatist territory to Russia.

The Inspection group was not allowed complete access to the sites (kept out by armed gunmen) until after it had been picked over by the Separatists. (See BBC news) Any missile fragments may have been removed.

200 of the bodies have been put in refrigerated box cars by the Separatists. (BBC news)

Ukrainian forces do not currently have access to Separatist-held territory; it is doubtful that Ukraine will ever be able to reclaim their eastern territories.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:18 AM

I am very gullible , Keith but not as gullible as the people who got on board that plane.

I assume they were gullible but it could be the case that they were not advised at check-in that they were going to be flying over a war zone whose airspace was controlled by "terrorists". Perhaps they hadn't been warned before getting aboard that these terrorists were in possession of Russian-supplied missiles capable of bringing down their aircraft . It could be they were not aware of the fact that the US civil aviation authority had forbidden flights over the Ukraine war zone .

I posted that thing I was sent by a facebook friend to give some indication of what is being said outside of the Western media, which had already concluded within 12 hours that the downing of the aircraft was the work of "Putin's missile". The pro-Russian piece sounds reasonable but I don't have the expertise to judge . I was hoping that the military types here might give their opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:25 AM

It was in Russian.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:33 AM

The stuff in yesterday's papers and on Rupert Murdoch's Sky News channel about people in east Ukraine looting the corpses reminded me of the treatment given by Murdoch to the Liverpool soccer club fans who they accused of corpse looting after nearly a hundred fans were crushed to death at Hillsborough in 1989 . Murdoch's paper apologized for its Hillsborough headline only last year .Some people still believe whatever the Sun says as if it's the gospel and Murdoch is Jesus .

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:38 AM

Shh.. Don't let Keith know that! His total social intercourse comprises of quoting from right wing reactionary press and defying people to laugh at him.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:55 AM

The source is Russian , Keith , but do you think what it says in translation sounds reasonably accurate ? Other reports linked to by the same Russian fb friend say that a missile from a BUK missile system would have blown the plane up in the sky and caused a highly visible explosion in the sky. There would have been no passengers seen falling as was the case with Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 because the passengers would have blown up with the aircraft if it had been hit by a BUK missile. Do you think that sounds true ?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM

Keith , but do you think

Absolutely not.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 11:16 AM

Lusitania parallels, anyone???

Waiting for Mr Putin to come up with denials similar to those of the German Government in 1915.

Just thinking out loud....

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 12:26 PM

the line coming from Kiev is that rebels thought they were shooting down a troop carrier. It seems to me that the jet was flying too high for it to have been a troop carrier bound for some place in the Ukraine .The crash site is about 30 miles from the Ukraine-Russia border, the plane was flying at over 30,000 ft . If the rebels did shoot it down they must surely have known it was heading towards Russia , which a Ukraine military troop carrier obviously would not have been doing .

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 01:12 PM

Other reports linked to by the same Russian fb friend say that a missile from a BUK missile system would have blown the plane up in the sky and caused a highly visible explosion in the sky

The BUK missile explodes 60m before impact sending a hail of fragments at the target.
This would cause the fuselage to break up and produce exactly what was seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 06:08 PM

I wonder if it was an attempt to shoot Putin down as he returned from the BRICS conference. His jet was in the area 30 minutes earlier. The planes do look alike.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 02:48 AM

Its all about the missile launcher.
Ukrainians say it was heading for Russia after the incident, Russians say they have proof that it went back into Ukrainian "government" controlled area.

When we know for sure who pressed the button, the reasons will become more apparent.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:37 AM

And for those involved in the blame game, whether there's "little doubt" in your mind or not - remember that Lockerbie happened 6 months after the US shot down an Iranian airliner.

Then after several years of legal procedures, most of which have now proven to have been faulty and/or corrupt and directly in breach of international law, Libya got the blame. Because someone needed them to be blamed.

As indeed someone had previously needed to blame Libya after a known Congolese terrorist brought down a French airliner going from Brazzaville to Paris, with zero link to anything Libyan.

As of now, the West's propaganda machine is still in cold war mode, so will take any opportunity to blame Russia for stuff (even though Putin was one of very few to recognise that the Libyan "revolution" was not all it might have seemed. And he was right about that).

So don't be too hasty.......

g

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:48 AM

Gather round and read the post above.

One of those internet conspiracy theories that we read about... PM it to Michael rather than post it, he is into that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 05:01 AM

Re post above: I avoid, as is known, even reading posts from the egregious Mather, let alone responding; but as I have said before, one's own name leaps out, and one has read before being aware who the poster is, which is what has happened here; and for once in a way, I feel a response to the general point is required in my own interests.

Far from being a pushover for trendy conspiracy theories, I despise pretty well every one of them. I am sure that Neil Armstrong walked on the Moon not on the Utah desert. I am convinced that Myra Hindley died in Holloway & was buried, and that they didn't surreptitiously release her and bury a coffin full of bricks because they knew that public opinion would not countenance her ever getting out...

Nevertheless: as to both Marilyn Monroe & ex-Princess Diana, OTOH, their deaths were just too peculiarly convenient to certain well-placed personages, and both died in a fashion that any apprentice special-agent could engineer in his sleep; to say nothing of such awkward questions as, would a trusted and experienced professional driver ever have allowed himself to get drunk while at work with a distinguished passenger, unless his drinks had been spiked or interfered with in some way? So I continue, to put it no higher, to suspect that both these not dissimilar deaths were probably not accidental or suicidal, but contrived. That is the current limit of my alleged addiction to belief in any such nefarious phenomena.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 05:21 AM

Eeh. As Bob Hoskins once famously said, "It's nice to talk."

Perhaps you could review some of my essays, as you like reading what I put?

I reckon I am going to hide a few cherry bombs inside long paragraphs for you. We'll soon have you off the sulking step...

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:30 AM

Even Wackipedia goes only so far as to say there that MM and JFK "reportedly" had an affair.

Doesn't quite add up to murder, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 10:43 AM

I can understand people mocking conspiracy theories after official inquiries have concluded . In the case of Flight MH17, people who pointed to the lack of proof about the downing being the work of pro-Russian rebels were being called conspiracy loons within hours of the plane hitting the ground .

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 10:59 AM

It isnt just an excuse to mock, not that I for one need an excuse for pointing and laughing at people who should know better..

Its how unhelpful they can be. A teacher friend told of when talking of Newtonian concepts, he spoke of the relative weight and constant mass of the astronauts on the moon and one boy pointed his father, who was not to be contradicted, told him it was a desert in Arizona etc. The poor boy ran schoolboy cruelty for months after that.

Granted, I told mine the first wind farms we ever saw were to combat global warming by cooling the fields and that the large black plastic sacks in fields after cutting the hay were in fact sleeping bags for cows on night shift.

The time such things become dangerous is when conspiracy grows legs and muddies the search for truth.

The relatives of Princess Diana and Dodi al Fayed must hurt like fuck whilst irresponsible insensitive bastards enjoy their little games, getting a hard on from upsetting others.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:08 AM

U.S. publishes trajectory of missile it says downed MH17

Video of Buk missile launcher in the town of Snizhne

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:33 AM

Caught the tailend of another bit of Musketry -- can't always help it. It's bits like

"getting a hard on from upsetting others"

that deter me from reading any of his posts if my eye can avoid them. Can he really not find more seemly modes of expression? Nasty little vulgarian. Did he, I wonder, carry on like that in meetings of all those important bodies [NHS Trusts & suchlike IIRC] that he never tires of telling us he used to chair, & was honoured by HMQ for doing so? If not, then why should we have to put up with it? Still up on the sulky step till he learns to behave something like a gentleman.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:56 AM

Fook me, he can't even ignore people successfully..

Sorry, I shouldn't accuse old codgers of getting a stiffy. Double insult and all that. Luckily, it was a metaphorical stiffy eh?

The problem is, he wants me to behave like a gentleman. Presumably wants me to take a glove off, waft it in his face and call him a cad for joining in the encouragement of Israeli bombing of civilians.

Gentleman... Let me see now.

"If you were a gentleman, you wouldn't have done that!"

"If you were a lady, you wouldn't speak with your mouth full."

Whoops, that's buggered my chances of vacating his sulky step.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 12:32 PM

I think enough of the facts are in, and now the mud is being spread. You can identify the parties and the spreading ink. From this point, the argument will be over what constitutes 'fact'.

My sympathies to the Netherlanders! And everyone on Malaysian Air Flight 17, and to their relatives and loved ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 01:41 PM

It doesn't get much more disgusting than this: The Malaysia Airlines Corpses Were Used as a Sickening PR Stunt for the Ukrainian Rebels' Fake Republic

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 01:48 PM

What have the rebels been doing to the wreckage, so busily all these days?
Nothing should have been touched before the investigation team got there.
I can think of no innocent explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:01 PM

The wreckage was picked over not only by the rebels but by nearby dwellers seeking cash and valuables. BBC news and photos.

Now two experts have found a piece of wreckage with evidence of fragments from a Buk missile. NY Times, today.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Iain
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:03 PM

Surely the real question to be asked is why a commercial airline was overflying a known warzone? To put passengers's lives at risk just to save a bit of jet fuel strikes me as being crimminally irresponsible.
Whenever a ragtag semi guerilla army has it's hands in the toybox of modern munitions it is a pretty safe bet that events will occurr that should not. To further add to the confusion many varied agendas are being pursued in the area. This makes pointing the finger accurately almost impossible. Perhaps the real truth will emerge several decades down the road.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:20 PM

IATA represents some 240 major carriers; it has complained, but did not warn its members away from the Ukraine.

The U. S. and I believe the UK forbid flights over the territory.

Iain, I agree, I can't understand why IATA didn't issue a general warning.

Perhaps, because the path is used by many carriers, they failed to act because jet fuel costs would have increased for the airlines using that path.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:56 PM

The last several posts seem to be blaming the victims (the Airline and IATA) for MH17 being shot down. Civilian aircraft had been flying that route, just outside the hot zone without incident. Some trigger happy Russian or Russian proxy fired that missile either on purpose or by mistake...the result is still the same. Period end of story; don't blame the victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:19 PM

Hey, John: ya gotts to assume some intelligence on the part of the airline folks not to route flights thru a war zone -

Or in this case, not.

Stupidity has its consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:29 AM

The decision is left to individual airlines.
BA did not overfly.

Had this not happened, we should still be concerned about Putin's policy towards Ukraine, especially his supplying powerful weaponry to the separatists.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:43 AM

If I think of recent flights over the last year alone I have been on, I noticed we have flown over the disputed Azeri / Armenian zone, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Sudan, Somalia, Northern Thailand... (For Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Bangkok and Durban.). Looking at Google Earth, I am sure Ukraine too, the others are ones I noticed when looking at the in flight "where the hell are we" screens.

You like to think something flying at 38,000' at almost 600 mph needs hardware only government forces have access to....

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 11:41 AM

You like to think something flying at 38,000' at almost 600 mph needs hardware only government forces have access to..

Agree Musket.
The real issue is Putin delivering powerful and sophisticated weaponry to rag-tag militias.
Also to Assad's Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 02:22 PM

The pro-Russian fighters are well-armed and dressed, and under a unified command. Some division leaders may act too much on their own, but I would not call these rebels "rag-tag."

With the formation of the Donetsk Peoples Republic, and the Lugansk Peoples Republic, now merged into the Federal State of Novorossiya, they are the advance forces of the Russian takeover of the eastern part of Ukraine.

Igor Girkin is in charge of the military forces.

The region is known as Donbass to Russians, and by them has long been considered an integral part of Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 02:41 PM

They are very well armed and dressed, but they are untrained civilians in Russian army kit.
They are indisciplined and unaccountable to anyone.
The aviation inspectors were turned back by some who were drunk and firing in the air.
It is scary that they are playing around with such things as high-altitude sams.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 02:49 PM

Southern Oblasts, from Kharkiv on the east, Odessa on the south, and Moldova on the west, are considered by Separatists to be part of Novorossiya.

This area probably will be united with Russia in the next three years. The Crimea already has been absorbed.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 02:56 PM

I know.
I do not think that Putin should arm them.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:08 PM

Here's something I think should be taught in high school in all countries:

It's easy to hire criminals to do your dirty work, it's very hard to get them to stop when you want them to. This applies whether you are an industrialist, a rebel, a prime minister or a mob boss.

Examples from history should be provided.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:40 PM

The rebel forces are soldiers recruited from the Russian segment of the Ukraine, some with advanced training in Russia. According to some reports, actual citizens of Russia are involved, especially in the operation of the more sophisticated hardware.
They may be regarded as "terrorists" (Ukraine government) or "criminals" (some of the western press) or rebels, but they consider themselves to be Russian patriots.

Their missiles shot down two more Ukraine jets today; the Ukraine seems unable to use airpower against the Separatists.

Here in Alberta, with a large Ukrainian population (350,000) in the central belt centered on Edmonton, events are being closely watched. The fear is that the entire Ukraine will eventually be reabsorbed by Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:54 PM

Over 1.2 million Canadians are of Ukrainian origin.

The leaders of the Donetsk Republic are Russian citizens from Moscow. Edmonton Journal (Alberta).

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:07 PM

Examples from history should be provided.

The U.S. alone provides thousands! e.g. Noriega. Iran-Contra. Bay of Pigs. Pinochet. The Mujahideen. & etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Little Robyn
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 10:32 PM

Greg F the news has been showing that many planes flew over a similar route within the past week - it's a normal route and considered safe.
Normal commercial plane routes.
If you do Facebook, you can follow events as a memorial to one of the passengers, Cornelius, known as Cor Pan
Robyn

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 11:48 AM

No it wasn't a normal route or considered safe :America's aviation authority had forbidden planes flying over that route. I don't know whether or not airplanes from other countries have since been banned .

It seems absolutely crazy that passengers have to spend hours going through airport check-ins , are not allowed to carry liquids aboard a flight and generally get snooped on by organizations like the NSA and GCHQ . At the same time airlines are allowed fly passengers over a war zone where these same state agencies claim armed terrorist militias operate who have the resources and mentalities to bring down airplanes.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 11:57 AM

Would you say the plane was asking for it?

What is your view of girls who are raped walking after dark?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 12:10 PM

The lack of satellite pics from the US suggests and reliance on youtube pics videos by American diplomats suggests to me that the information in this article may have substance to it.
"A source within the Ukrainian defense department claims that Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was accidentally shot down by Ukrainian troops during a military exercise in near Donetsk which took place on July 17.

'"On July 17 the commanding officer of 156th Anti-Aircraft Regiment was instructed to conduct a training exercise of ground troops stationed near Donetsk, which involved deploying the troops, and carrying out a routine tracking and destroying of targets with the Buk-M1 missile," the source told RIA Novosti.

"Although actual use of the rockets was not intended, they were accidentally fired off when two Sukhoi Su-25 combat aircraft flew parallel with but at a different altitude than the Boeing 777, claims the source. When the three aircraft merged and became a single dot on the missile 's radar system, the Buk-M1 automatically chose the larger target, leading to the demise of MH17.

It is worth noting that RIA Novosti is Russian state media, although the veracity of the story is no less credible than YouTube videos uploaded by the Ukrainian government, which have been relied upon by both Kiev and Washington as the main source of evidence for the contention that separatist rebels were responsible for downing the airliner.

"In addition, the information correlates with what former AP and Newsweek investigative journalist Robert Parry was told by his intelligence source, which was that the U.S. is in possession of satellite imagery which shows men wearing Ukrainian army uniforms firing the missile system that brought down MH17.

"Given that Parry won awards for his work exposing the Iran Contra scandal, one would imagine that he has built up some credible and influential sources over the past few decades.

"Kiev has failed to release transcripts from air traffic control communications which were seized by Ukrainian security services immediately after the incident, although pilots on board an Air India Dreamliner which was flying just 90 seconds behind Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 say they heard Ukrainian air traffic control give the order for the doomed plane to change route minutes before MH17 was shot down by a missile.

"Russia has presented radar evidence which it claims shows Ukrainian fighter jets in the vicinity of MH17 shortly before it was shot down.

http://www.infowars.com/kiev-source-ukraine-accidentally-shot-down-mh17-during-exercises/

*********************

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 01:42 PM

Your "infowars" site is run by Alex Jones.

"] He has accused the U.S. government of being involved in the Oklahoma City bombing,[9] the September 11 attacks,[10] the filming of fake Moon landings to hide NASA's secret technology[11] and the killing of "thousands of astronauts".[12] He believes that government and big business have colluded to create a New World Order through "manufactured economic crises, sophisticated surveillance tech and—above all—inside-job terror attacks that fuel exploitable hysteria".[13] Jones describes himself as a libertarian and a paleoconservative. The Southern Poverty Law Center describes Jones as "the most prolific conspiracy theorist in contemporary America."[14]

In January 2013, Jones was invited to speak on Piers Morgan's show after promoting an online petition to deport Morgan due to his support of gun control laws.[48] The interview turned into "a one-person shoutfest, as Jones riffed about guns, oppressive government, the flag, his ancestors' role in Texan independence, and what flag Morgan would have on his tights if they wrestled".

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,UKIE GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 02:59 PM

If you want the truth about what is behind the "Ukraine Crisis should go here 

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:48 PM

"Consortiumnews"-- unverified blogs.