BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'

Subject: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Brian May
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 09:08 AM

This quote from today's BBC website of the latest report:

Birmingham council "disastrously" failed to act when a group of Muslim men began to promote, sometimes illegally, a fundamentalist version of Islam in some schools, because officials were afraid of being accused of racism or Islamophobia, a report has found.

Sound familiar. It mirrors what many folks responded to our earlier 'discussions' when some of us were labelled 'racist bigots' for pointing out (what has turned out to be) the truth.

Dare to challenge the bleeding heart liberals (small 'L') who don't want to face that which is unpalatable . . .

TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE NO PROOF IS REQUIRED, TO THOSE WHO DON'T, NO PROOF IS SUFFICIENT - or words to that effect.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:34 PM

I OPd on 21 Feb 2011

BS: 'Racism': catch-all accusation?

It got 57 posts. Might be worth your looking back at, Brian. I could easily refresh it if anyone would care to look at it.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Brian May
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 06:45 PM

Interesting that, having been proved wrong, it's now 'goading'.

Being correct is now pathetic too . . . apparently.

Oh well, watch this space, the fat lady still hasn't started yet. The 'problem' has not gone away and won't any time soon.

But I shall desist from the rest of the 'told you so' stuff as it too is brought into the public domain.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 07:59 PM

You should see the Chistians in American schools... at least they only seem to preach ignorance, not violence, but still, *sigh*

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 08:19 PM

And who, Brian May, is now making these accusations? Someone without a dog in the fight? Why, actually, no! You neglected to tell us that bit!

You'll be telling us next that Gordon Brown saved twenty planes from being bombed down in 2006 (which is why I can still only take the titchiest bottle of Head 'n' Shoulders on me foreign hols... 1984 an' all that...!)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Brian May
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 03:00 AM

I think you need your medication adjusted Steve!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 03:13 AM

Real liberals a good reasonable people....all would condemn what has gone on in a number of schools in the English midlands.
Real liberals discuss all subjects objectively, making their points and arguing against views they disagree with.


The UK "liberals" who seek to control these threads stay silent and have already started to attempt to silence discussion on this issue(Goading thread).....as I have said many times, they are the antithesis of real liberalism, ideologically driven, Fascist in nature, bullying in practice.

"liberal Fascism" suits perfectly. Aided by the media they force their politically correct agenda on everyone.....It is frightening how this sort of ideology achieves power.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 04:18 AM

"at least they only seem to preach ignorance, not violence, but still, *sigh*"
I trust you are not following the sagas of clerical abuse, Industrial schools, the Magdalene Laundries, homes for fallen women.... et al, in Ireland.
If anybody would like to start a petition banning compulsory religious education to anybody below the age of rational thought and reasoning, please put my name at the top of it.
So far it seems "any religion other than my own is a no-no".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: GUEST,#
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 08:01 PM

Try comparative religions instead.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 03:51 AM

Why try religion at all, other than a personal, freely adopted, belief?
Certainly not a subject to be 'taught' to children as definitive.
By its very nature it is divisive and sectarian, and in the hands of zealots it can be extremely dangerous, even lethal
Religion and politics is a toxic mix, and in the word today, an impending threat to us all.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 03:25 PM

It was "conservatives" who opened up schools to faith-nutters of all types. Bring back state education as was.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 06:52 PM

"liberal fascism"?!!!?? For fucks sake you are on the Internet. There are plenty of dictionaries, try using one. Or if you really do know the definitions of those words, try "ridiculous" and "hyperbole"


LOL!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 07:03 PM

From your comments about both about liberal and Islam. Mr May, you might find it informative to research the words "bigotry" and "stereotype."

Considering your thesis on this post I also wonder why you are taking the paraphrased words of unidentified members of the Birmingham council as proof that you were right.

That may be enough for you but I find it quite logical and prudent to entertain the notion that members of the Birmingham council can be as bigoted, pigheaded and wrong as any member of this forum, you and me included.

Perhaps you would like to reconsider this whole conversation?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 08:49 PM

From The Independent.


Hardline governors in some Birmingham schools were guilty of "serious malpractice" and headteachers were undermined in order to introduce Islamic worship and ban sex education, a damning report into the "Trojan Horse" allegations found today.





Schools introduced Islamic assemblies without permission and used the Muslim call to prayer which had "led to the coercion of young people" to participate in worship during the school day, the report commissioned by Birmingham City Council found.

There was no evidence of a systematic plot to take over schools or of a conspiracy to promote "an anti-British agenda, violent extremism or radicalisation in schools in East Birmingham", the 141-page report by Ian Kershaw, an independent education expert found. He added that the people involved seemed to be motivated by a "genuine and understandable desire" to "raise standards".

However, his report warned: "There are a number of key individuals who are encouraging and promoting certain Islamic principles in the Birmingham area, and we have noted a pattern of these individuals moving between schools in the area."

The governors – mainly men of Pakistani heritage – used "inappropriate, unprofessional and disruptive behaviour" and were "overly challenging and sometimes aggressive" towards head teachers who resisted their proposals.

The problem had been compounded by the failure of Birmingham City Council to challenge the governors and support the headteachers for fear of being accused of being racist or Islamophobia, the report concluded.

The controversy was sparked in December last year by an anonymous letter outlining a plot called "Operation Trojan Horse" to oust headteachers and replace them with people who would run schools on strict Islamic lines.
Claims that the letter was a hoax were neither supported nor rejected by the report, but Mr Kershaw found evidence that 10 of the 16 Birmingham schools he investigated showed some elements of the Trojan Horse conspiracy.

The letter set out a five-step plan to change schools to ensure they were run on Islamic principles, including turning parents against a school by persuading them that their children were being corrupted by being taught about sex education and homosexuality.

The council had been warned about the problems before the Trojan Horse allegations but had failed to tackle them.

The report concluded: "It is a determined effort to change schools, often by unacceptable practices, in order to influence education and religious provision for the students served."

"These "activists" have regarded the role of being a governor as a means to an end. Where they judge a school to be failing the students, they have seen their role as one of leading change through the replacement of school leadership and an improper manipulation of school governance. There is a need to guard against this behaviour, which does not comply with local authority and school governance legal obligations."

Sir Albert Bore, Leader of Birmingham City Council, acknowledged that the council had made mistakes.

He said: "The report has highlighted areas where we have either taken no action, were too slow to take action, or have simply done the wrong thing. The report further states this has often been because of the risk of being seen as racist or Islamophobic. Our proper commitment to cohesion in communities sometimes overrode the need to tackle difficult questions about what was happening in a small number of schools."

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 11:46 PM

"liberal fascism"?!!!?? For fucks sake you are on the Internet. There are plenty of dictionaries, try using one. Or if you really do know the definitions of those words, try "ridiculous" and "hyperbole"
.,,.

How about you try "oxymoron". Jack?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 02:47 AM

"Muslim call to prayer which had "led to the coercion of young people"
Sort of like ringing church bells- you mean - those bastards "coerced" me out of my sleep for years.
The rest of the report, apart from innuendo and rumour, can be found openly taught in many Christian 'Faith' schools in Britain sex education, homosexuality (really gets Ake going, that one)- doesn't get round to pregnancy termination and contraception; hell-bound sins for some Christian faiths.
The report was expected to produce potential suicide bombers - it turned out a damp sqib.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 05:08 AM

To put in context --

'Schools introduced Islamic assemblies without permission and used the Muslim call to prayer which had "led to the coercion of young people" to participate in worship during the school day'

Rang a full peal of eight bells for assembly every morning in your school, did they Jim? Grandsire Triples or Tittums? Asleep in your lessons, were you?

Why don't you just try not being quite so stupid for once, eh? Would make such arguments as you do contrive to adduce a bit more convincing, you know.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 06:25 AM

Did you ever attend a Catholic school Mike and experience the religious practices there to see how many times religion made its presence known throughout the day?
I still remember, from the age of six, standing below the statue of a near-naked man, shot through with arrows and streaming with blood, waiting with a relative to see if there was a place for me in that bright and cheerful font of knowledge.
The hooded women in black who floated by, seemingly without feet, dis wonders for my six-year-old confidence.
Why don't you make an effort not to express your ignorance of the real world outside the cosseted cloisters of academe for a change.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:52 AM

We're all born without a belief system but have one foisted upon us by well-meaning people who underwent the same sort of "education".

But these days, particularly within mixed cultures, it is more to do with politics and power, rather than belief in "higher matters".

High time it stopped.

g

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:05 AM

Grandsire triples is more logical on six or twelve bells, eight is making it difficult for the caller. A full peal wouldn't be worth the mental effort for that matter.

About the only contribution I will make to this thread. The original post was on the basis that some peoples' minds had already been made by someone with no intelligence whatsoever. He thought that if you believe that equality is important that somehow you support the disgraceful abhorrent practice of allowing religion to flourish in schools.

Such things are child abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:06 AM

Almost totally agree with everything you say Giovanni; would only quibble in saying that it has always been to do with politics and power and mixed cultures are of little importance.
Religion has been a major factor in sending young man off to kill other young men and to sacrifice their own lives since man first became 'civilised'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:42 AM

"Such things are child abuse."


SO.... to use your favourite MO Ian......"All Muslims are child abusers?"

Hoist and petard come immediately to mind.   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:47 AM

zzzzz

Have you noticed how it takes a bigot to defend bigotry by twisting what people say? It comes of having no answer that fits your own pathetic outlook.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 02:05 PM

"Hoist and petard come immediately to mind. "
I would agree with Muskett that to allow religion to flourish is a form of child abuse.
It is not recognised as such, and all religions practice it
To single out Muslims id selective bigotry
Petard or what?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:10 AM

I would agree with Muskett that to allow religion to flourish is a form of child abuse.

So you two would not allow religion to flourish?
Somewhat totalitarian that, or did you not mean it?
Please clarify Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:21 AM

"So you two would not allow religion to flourish?"
I have already said exactly what I mean - read what others have written, why don't you.
"Certainly not a subject to be 'taught' to children as definitive.
By its very nature it is divisive and sectarian, and in the hands of zealots it can be extremely dangerous, even lethal
Religion and politics is a toxic mix, and in the word today, an impending threat to us all."
Fanatics like you, as a so called Christian who uses his claimed religion to support atrocities and human rights abuses, are a perfect example of why it should never be taught it impressionable children as fact and under the fear of eternal damnation.
Religion should be a personal choice made by thinking human beings - ot something driven into children's heads from infancy.
Do you have a problem with that, or are you in favour of brainwashing children along with all your other extremism?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:13 AM

Musket, You twist what people say. I thought you were just yanking our chains. I've never thought about it being bigotry. :-) should I? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:16 AM

Religion can flourish all it likes.

Between consenting adults who agree to be bound by the rules. Children and vulnerable adults need protecting from the wickedness that religious authorities have repeatedly failed to address.

I think you will find that it is an avowed aim of all religions to be totalitarian. They do manage to dream up jealous Gods, all of 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:14 AM

That is not what I find.
You are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:27 AM

So your church already had opportunity for women to be bishops? How many gay weddings has it conducted? It must be nice to have a church that doesn't tell children that they will be judged by a mythical monster. I bet your lot steer clear of vulnerable people as well, and don't use their distress to brainwash them whilst at their most susceptible?

Wow? What is this church? It certainly stands out from the crowd. It seems inclusive if Keith can in all humility claim to be a part of it whilst telling everybody children playing on a beach have only themselves to blame for being murdered by Israeli militants. Or that hospitals and schools are legitimate targets if you warn people to leave them first.

Jack. The whole ethos of any religion is bigotry when you think about it. Luckily, some of us learned how to think rather than what to think.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:32 AM

telling everybody children playing on a beach have only themselves to blame for being murdered by Israeli militants. Or that hospitals and schools are legitimate targets if you warn people to leave them first.
Sick lies and smears against me.
You are incapable of reasoned discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:37 AM

"that religious authorities have repeatedly failed to address."
Been part of - like rapist priest using the authority their religion gives them to defile children.
"That is not what I find."
You find only wahat you wish to find - you ignore what doesn't suit - or deny it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 10:02 AM

Musket said "I think you will find..."
It is not my finding.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM

A British government inquiry has found that hardline Muslims tried to impose an "intolerant and aggressive" Islamic agenda on some schools in the city of Birmingham, including separation of boys and girls in lessons and banning Christmas celebrations.

Some of the majority-Moslem schools invited speakers with known extremist views to assemblies and promoted organizations that would be categorized as 'extremist' under government classifications, according to the report by Peter Clarke, former head of London Metropolitan Police's Counter Terrorism Command.

Hardline Muslims also tried to force schools to install governors and teachers who would support a conservative Islamic religious agenda.

"There has been co-ordinated, deliberate and sustained action, carried out by a number of associated individuals, to introduce an intolerant and aggressive Islamic ethos into a few schools in Birmingham," Clarke said.

Reuters

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 11:28 AM

Notwithstanding the appalling decision to use an ex head of counter terrorism to investigate school curriculum and the inference that gave, it is about time religious organisations were barred from running state schools.

School should be secular, about all round education and an emphasis on English, maths and the sciences. Be inventive with geography, make history interesting, teach children how to look after themselves health wise, rather than the spoon fed junk food early death they may end up with.

But keep superstition extra curricular. It is too much to ask that children are kept away from religion till they are old enough to judge whether they want to be involved or not, and it will be some years before religion is accepted as destructive to young minds. We are still steeped in medieval superstition. Sad but true. Politicians are taught that there are votes in sucking up to god botherers so I am not holding my breath.



Looking at Keith's last post, professing faith seems to make you forgetful too. It is not a smear to repeat your posts back at you. Your fellow sympathiser of Israeli militants Poo Bad has just posted on here, so I don't expect the thread to get much better. Especially considering the ignorant stance it was formed upon when Brian May thought that if you weren't a Daily M*il type nutter, that you would somehow support the right of religious types to overtake schools.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 11:50 AM

It is not a smear to repeat your posts back at you.

No it is not, and I could not object if you did.
I keep asking you to do just that.

Why will you NOT repeat my posts back to me?

Because your claims about them are lies.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 05:39 AM

I'm sure the good little girls and boys are capable of reading them.

Although not just after you have eaten, is my advice.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 04:31 PM

Anyone can , and like you they will fail to find anything "bloodthirsty."

You have failed to substantiate your accusation and you never will because it was just another Musket lie.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: LadyJean
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 11:52 PM

I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood. I went to a school that was 90% Jewish. Gentile kids had to go to school on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, but we couldn't really have class as most of our classmates and teachers were observing the holiday at home.

Christmas was that other winter holiday. Easter was nowhere. Teachers wrote Hebrew on the blackboard. I sang songs in Hebrew. I don't know what the words meant. The gentile students felt like outsiders. But it wasn't part of some sinister conspiracy. It was a minority who were, at least there, a majority.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Trojan Horse - Birmingham'
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 06:38 AM

Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 03:25 PM

It was "conservatives" who opened up schools to faith-nutters of all types. Bring back state education as was.

I think, perhaps, it was the other way around.

The history of education in England shows the first schools opened in the time of St Augustine, by religious communities. "State education" came much, much, later.