Folk Clubs Dying Out

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:41 AM

clubs whether they be song writing clubs or folk clubs or acoustic music or blues clubs are important in my opinion, because they have a root in a community, they are places where people make their own music, and where people turn up specifically to listen. open mics are not acoustic and there is in my opinion a tendency for it to be background music, when that happens, i feel it is disrespectful to the performer and the music. of course it does not mean that every open mic is going to be treated as background music, but ic acan mean that there will be a number of people there who are not there to listen to the music, unless the open mic is held in a seperate room.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:29 AM

GUEST,kenny said
> @Rachel - thank you for your reply. I'm afraid I can't agree with you, but wish you the best of luck with your music.

Was that a reply to a PM? I can't see how it relates to her 27 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM post.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:06 AM

@Rachel - thank you for your reply. I'm afraid I can't agree with you, but wish you the best of luck with your music.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 04:39 AM

Al yearns for the the same times as me, I think. My drinking apprenticeship was getting them in for Tony Capstick... But the problem is, we turn up at these "people sitting around with books" nights and try to compare them to folk clubs.

Perhaps we are also trying to capture a well misspent youth when bemoaning what people call folk clubs now?

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 12:56 AM

if people are singing folk songs,how can folk singers be dying?, of course we are all dying from the time we are born, generally I prefer to think that I am living from the moment I was born,the other philosophical outlook seems a trifle pessimistic.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 12:07 AM

I do like this idea of a singer songwriters club. Anyone interested in setting one up in Manchester UK?

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,#
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 09:22 PM

That was me.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 09:21 PM

Got news for y'all. Folk clubs ain't dying out.

First, there are as many definitions of folk clubs as there are people.

Second, Dick Miles--with whom I have a love/hate affair unbeknownst to him--is correct. "if you are competing with open mics, promote the club, explain the advantages of the folk club, market the club, keep a data base, be positive."

I do disagree that explaining means much: it's better to show.

Folk clubs aren't dying, imo, folk singers are.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 07:05 PM

it was me not big al, it would leave plenty of people in folk clubs , because there is nothing to stop people who are song writers going to both, or the many people who like blues and tradtional songs would still go to folk clubs,
mandoman 77 your comment is plain silly.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Mandoman77
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:23 PM

Great idea Big Al, singer songwriting clubs, but wait a minute who would that leave to perform at Folk Clubs, but then again who cares if the bar is open.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Rachel
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:23 PM

Sorry re. above post...that was me...Rachel

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM

@ Kenny
I can't make a comparison between numbers attending on a typical night now and twenty years ago as my experience only spans three years.
A typical night at my club has around 20 people attending. I've seen numbers reaching almost thirty.
From my own observations, as a relative newcomer, thriving isn't just about numbers attending. For me, It's also about inclusivity,diversity of players/singers, range of abilities, feeling safe to try something out and make mistakes without judgement, having a laugh, sharing ideas,sometimes instruments, a warm welcome for newcomers ( and there have been several while I have been attending,)masses of sandwiches served on the night( including cheese and onion!) good ales (although I'm a lager drinker, I'm afraid),regular concert nights, special folk events involving loads more ale and more sandwiches.
The regular folk nights sees regulars attending that neither play nor sing, but just like to listen to the music, as does the landlady.
This is my own definition of 'thriving'and it keeps me coming back week after week, work willing.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:21 PM

Not all of them Tony. Some are just too old to go out on the road - like Derek. Ewan - he's gone too - he was never a pisshead.

Ithink I would like to add - that maybe the tradition was too determined to look back at the past of the music - rather than forward at the audience - and their needs. Needs which change in every age - but was there ever an age with as much change as the 20th century,

It caught everybody out....church, state, political institutions, social frameworks.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: mikesamwild
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 01:04 PM

When I got into Folk Clubs in the mid 1950s I wanted to learn from older singers and players and to sing to and with my own age group. After a while I joined the grownups and went into the public bar with traditional musicians. I still supported the clubs but agreed with Ralph Vaughan Williams' who said that the collecting and conserving etc of the first revival was really to give the songs back to the people. The second and now 'New English' third revivals are still doing that.

I don't think clubs will die as young 'Nu Folk' fans will still have to go upstairs in pubs and maybe other venues. They will also no doubt walk past the 'Nu Trad' singers and players in the bar on their way to rediscover and reinvent our heritage.

meanwhile if the music has permeated popular music in its many forms should we lose sleep? Keep it live and keep it alive!

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 11:38 AM

another worthwhile idea in my opinion is to start Song Writing Clubs, Clubs where people can go to perform their own material and where the music is listened to in the same way as it is in Folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 08:35 AM

the problem is not wit the maeketing opportunities or festival organisation.

on the contrary the middle class gang at bbc4,etc has given the folk world repeated creative opportunities ordinary musicians can only dream about.

the problem is the music. you have laboured mightily to create a style of music that alienates the general listener. you have suceded beyond your wildest dreams - now even great songs from the folk world are not making it to a wider market in the way that Ralph Mctell and the dubs did with in our generation.

all this stuff about the ist world war - where are Eric Bogle's - not in the charts. its old news to us, but might it not stir hearts that missed out June Tabor nearly forty years back. perhaps in a more accessible style.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Tony Rath aka Tonyteach
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 06:37 AM

FAO Big Al Whittle

I agree about most of the names you quoted However they were persons who refreshed themselves frequently and with great damage to the internal organs

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 06:08 AM

A quick look at the on-line guide to the Newcastle degree suggests that they do an optional module on "enterprise" but it looks as if it is more about being a self employed musician rather than branching out into being a promoter or agent.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:23 AM

Lizzie as usual goes right over the top but there is a germ of truth in her post.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:50 AM

excellent,Flora, Very good idea.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:44 AM

I think that the trad music universities could do a module on ' running events'. ( from folk clubs to festivals).It would not be everyones cup of tea but event management is a growing occupation.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:36 AM

Yes, well, in this country (UK) the folk world is a closed down community and woe betide ANYONE not of the right heritage (that being the folk world itself) who DARES to try and make it more popular...

You wanted it kept your own little world, you have it.

The one thing you all forgot was that you won't be here forever and instead of letting others try to get the word out, be they artists or those who love the music, you pounce on them, ridicule them, shut them out and do all you can to shut them up....

Ho hum

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:28 AM

I meant to say in my earlier post that we have many excellent young folk and traditional music artists up here. They haven't all been through the folk music degree courses or the Plockton "Centre of Excellence" school. It is easy for people to be disparaging about them (along the lines of "all technique but no musicality") but my experience of listening to them has, on the whole, been different. They get gigs at folk clubs as well as festivals, and usually bring in an enthusiastic crowd of young supporters to the audience, at least on those nights, if not every week: they mostly know their subject very well, having researched the provenance of any songs or tunes they do. And there are many great projects throughout Scotland to encourage young people to take up an instrument and play folk music.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:25 AM

It might be easier to form an accurate judgement as to whether or not "Folk clubs are dying out", if people were to give some indication of the number of people currently attending these clubs mentioned above on a typical night, and in particular, compared with 10 or 20 years ago.
If your club's been going for 10 or 20 years, are you getting smaller or larger audiences now than you were then ?
Just to take one instance from the post immediately above - Rachel - how many of an audience constitutes a "thriving" club these days ?
I've no axe to grind here, but am just genuinely curious.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Rachel
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 06:00 PM

I regularly attend the folk club at the Good Intent too, having being involved in the 'Folk Club scene'for only about three and a half years; so compared to some I am a newbee really. The folk club in question, is highly welcoming, a place to grow and develop musically, listen to great music, enjoy collective singing where I'm beginning to learn a lot of the choruses...and with regard to the 'point under discussion', is certainly thriving.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 05:13 PM

" folk is not dying but becoming more healthy "
I agree but the point under discussion is the folk club rather than folk generally. The two are not the same.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: growler
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 04:37 PM

Reading the above, we are lucky at The Good Intent in Rochester. The club welcomes anyone of any ability. The pub also has an 'open mike night'. It is well attended, despite other folk clubs within driving distance, the nearest being 300 yards away. I am proud of what we have achieved, over the last ten years and from my local experience, folk is not dying but becoming more healthy

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 01:26 PM

I think we have to accept that its not us lot running things. the heroes of my generation have all gone - Gerry lockran. noel murphy, Derek brimstone, tony capstick, tommy Dempsey, alex Campbell, ian Campbell.......these guys and many more were all my nights out.

theres been a change of regime. theres some great stuff around....oh but I do miss those guys.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,tony Rath aka Tonyteach
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 10:56 AM

I have heard this story so many times. The magazine Banjo Mandolin and Guitar in the mid 60s anounced that it was JUST possible to make a living as a folk performer if you slept on the floor and could scrape by on £20 a week which was an existing wage then. Most gigging musicians do not make much money unless you are doing covers or in a function band. You make work a lot indeed but the outgoings outway the incomings.

The decline in the pub market has also had an impact and the Kim Howell legislation put a lot of publicans off live music. in our part of London there is a vibrant acoustic music scene but it is not trad folk Young people go to blues and acoustic clubs where younger people play

Folkies tending to be older do not
Hence the old joke Whats 50 yards long has five teeth and smells of piddle. The front row at a Willie Nelson concert

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 10:26 AM

Could I just point out that folk music in Lewes is alive and well at Lewes Saturday Folk Club.

Sorry to hear that things are so bad at the folk club you play at Musket. Perhaps you should get Big Al in to liven things up.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 09:32 AM

Yes they are, they've been doing it since I first went in one in about 1969!

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 09:21 AM

my point is that if we can get young people into more clubs, either by club exchanges as i suggested earlier, or by reduced admission, one might hope they would take over the running of clubs eventually in situations such as LEWES THURSDAY WOULD BE AVOIDED.
if i lived near LEWES, I would attempt to run it in the meantime.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 07:33 AM

vic, fair enough i understand how you must feel , i am just trying to be positive

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 07:08 AM

There's a huge resurgence of interest in what we could call folk music, and by young people.

But what is of interest to them , sat round in a noisy pub whilst an old man with a beard gets a three chord book out and strums an old country and western song whilst other old men are leafing through their similar books?

There are some folk clubs out there still. When I find them, I also find a large younger audience.

Nothing wrong with old men and books, just don't expect anybody under 65 to say wow...

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 06:37 AM

whilst I agree with Dave Sutherland that his club has been welcoming, and maybe in the last few years trad clubs have been welcoming - a by product of the bbc young tradition - and raised consciousnesses - there was a long long period when this was not the case.

I can remember Downes and Beer never getting a gig at the jolly porter in Exeter, ian Campbell's kids being disenchanted with the brum trad scene. and indeed my own lukewarm and sometimes hostile reception in trad clubs like the grey cock, the prince of wales, the star. different interpretations of the tradition were certainly not welcomed.

many of the present young acts that I see nowadays would have been given very short shrift.
the folk clubs I don't will ever die out. and the reason for this is simply that modern culture - as presented by television is so awful. macdonald hobley and lady Isabel Barnett drove the masses out of their homes in the fifties, Rolf Harris and Val Doonican did in the 60's. Chris Evans and a host of other talented celebrities are carrying on this good work

how ever horrid the trad folk clubs used to be -sometimes they were the only game in town. and I think that's how things will continue. i'd rather have the dowie dens of yarrow intoned lifelessly to me from a ringbinder than sit through the x factor.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Mandoman77
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 06:02 AM

I'm sure music played in informal settings will always survive, its one of the things humans do when they get together. The problem occurs when you try to fomalise, catagorise, sectionalise, start inventing rules and regulations, putting labels on things etc. For me thats the problem, there should be no such thing as Folk, its just music, enjoy it.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 05:59 AM

Dick, at the moment I am still recovering from the fact that no-one wanted to take over the successful club that we had been running for decades and that has influenced my opinion on the future of clubs. As has been pointed out many times on this thread, there are other ways that the music will survive.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,ST
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 05:01 AM

Why should it be a problem if folk clubs are dying out? As far as I know they were an artefact of my generation, getting going in the 1950s and gradually suffering from a variety of age-related ailments now. Or is it the lack of a training ground for professional folk club singers/musicians that is being lamented? Again, are these professional club performers (as opposed to concert artists) not a product of the very same, probably passing, phase/generation? Folk song and music was going long before folk clubs and it's still going but now, as people here have mentioned, at festivals (some "folk", some not), concerts, sessions and singarounds. The latter (which are plentiful if you know where to look but often not well publicised) seem to cater for what were the floor singers (and do a better job of it in my opinion) and the former for the "professionals". Their apprenticeship route may be different now but there are plenty of new, young performers at festivals and in concerts who have made it without apparently visiting many folk clubs.
It may well be that the Mudcat generation would like to see the clubs continue after them, in which case follow some of the suggestions below, but perhaps the folk clubs were just for a generation: folk music goes on even without them and that is surely what matters.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 04:59 AM

Excellent news, Vic. I hope you're telling them all about the delights of folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 02:38 AM

ok vic, but how does that relate to the comment are folk cubs dying out, you have had years of experience of successful organising, do you think there is any merit in my suggestions, do you have any suggesions yourself

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Vic Smith
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 06:52 PM

I've found them! Thousands of them! Young People all enjoying traditional and folk music. ! They are all at WOMAD this weekend. Not much British stuff but some fantastic music.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 06:29 AM

so my suggestions are this in order to encourage all acoustic music venues that require people to listen and participate.
I. if you live in the north east encourage graduates and students from the folk degree course to visit by charging reduced admission for them, occasionally book students from the degree course[ i believe some clubs do this already.
2. initiate club swaps if you are in the home counties with sam lees nest collective.
3. reduce the price drastically[ and use this as a selling point and promote this] for under 30s.
4. keep a data base of all visitors.
5. exchange info with other folk club organisers.
6. make everyone welcome particularly young people.
7. run workshops and make them cheaper for young people.
8.if you are near a college promote the club with the college aloow their young students, to come in cheap
9, possibly, occasionally have an under 30s perfomers night only, with a young guest performer, flexibilty required here, older resident singers may be required, if the initial turn out is poor, this could be tried every 3 months or so.
just some ideas, that may or may not be worth trying

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 06:13 AM

Living in Central Scotland, we are spoilt for choice of both clubs and sessions (not open mikes), some of which are weekly, some monthly. Sure there are some nights when the audience is thin on the ground, sometimes unexpectedly - "thought more of you would come out for XXX" - but as far as I know all the clubs I attend are not in danger of going under. I am treasurer of one very small one, which would possibly be hovering on the brink if it were not that we get the use of the back room of a pub for free, and only run 3 guest nights per year: people therefore pay a very small sum for attending the session nights in between, which helps to pay for the guests, and oh yes, we have a raffle!
Raffle income is important to clubs, tho' I agree it can go on too long in certain venues: one group I know just dispenses with all the "fun" and running about, and just publishes a very large print list of winning numbers for people to check on their way out. This gives us a lot more playing/singing time!
As for audiences having a say in who appears, most clubs I attend either ask for suggestions at their AGMs or have suggestions boxes in which you can post any ideas.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 04:21 AM

A club can be inward looking - it depends on how it recruits new people.
Its my experince for things to happen you need some sort of organisation. It can be formal/ informal. Both can work. If you are dealing with a lot of money you need account records. Young people are not inexperienced in team work - most jobs demand it.
The idea of doing things without pay for the benefit of yourself and others is coming back. Just look at the Glasgow games. The Thatcher erea has passed.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 07:48 PM

I doubt if many people under 40 have any experience of participating in organizations led by committees. They'll react to that sort of institution in the same way that most folks would to the priesthood of an alien religion. The more visible the committee is, the more it'll repel newcomers.

For any other genre of music, you can go to a concert without having to sit quiet for ten minutes at the interval while some Voodoo Hoodoo priest does an incomprehensible ritual with with slips of paper and a hat.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 06:12 PM

"Surely the function of a club - if it has a function - is to please the committee and mebers."
That's the problem. Once the committee is pandering to the old guard in the membership the club becomes inward looking and unwelcoming and decline is inevitable.

A significant proportion of clubs run by people who came into folk music in the 60s are in this condition. Younger people and those new to the scene start or go to new events and don't participate in the information exchange circuits of the classic folk scene such as local magazines (or Mudcat).

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 06:08 PM

Sorry Oggie but, as I said, you provide useful quotes. Without a context, I have to take what you say at face value.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 04:20 PM

Surely the function of a club - if it has a function - is to please the committee and mebers.
If by having a headline act you make enough to pay for the loss on the next few nights - then so be it. Sometimes its the other way round - the singers night subsidise having a paid guest. As long as the members liked the evenings then purpose satisfied.
FloraG

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:47 PM

That is....assuming it is a paying audience. The ones I go to, I never pay, other than a raffle ticket and a drink. I get to play a few songs, and listen to others, and give support even if I think sometimes it could have been better. It just depends what you want out of a club.   And for me, it is not listening to one or two acts all evening, and not being able to sing myself.   Seems to me that such a scenario is a poor description of a club.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,oggie
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:51 PM

My comment about learning how to put a set together was actually in response to an earlier comment about where will people learn if there aren't folk clubs.

I also agree that the function of a club is to provide entertainment to a paying audience. I fear some have forgotten that.