Folk Clubs Dying Out

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 01:37 PM

When did "Trad" clubs stop welcoming young people???

I don't believe that they ever have.

However, young and indeed older people find concerts and festivals far more appealing entertainment than the tedious drivel that many floor singers and club residents offer.

I think it's as simple as that.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 12:53 PM

well said, Dave.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 12:25 PM

When did "Trad" clubs stop welcoming young people???
Ours certainly doesn't and hopefully our booking policy which has included the majority of youngsters playing folk music today would confirm this.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 11:26 AM

From a conference I attended a few years back, the Folk scene was on a par with the 60's folk revival! And attendancs were up. However the Guest Booking clubs were certainly in decline. I believe due to too many same old faces, unfriendly atttitude to anyone not playing English Trad, and the usual reluctance of Folk Clubs to organise and work together i.e Rock clubs would never survive if they took the same attitude. There is an Org Folk21 currently working to address the problem.
As for open Mic clubs, they have very much increased, because unlike the trad clubs they welcome young people and a wide variety of genres. I hear traditionalists say they don't regard this as 'Folk' I say Folk is music from numerous countries and people and the more the merrier

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 11:24 AM

In these hard times, foreign travel has been a bit limited lately. Been to Whitby a few times and did get an overseas booking a few years ago on The Isle of Wight.

Booking policy has been a bit reactive of late. I get flooded with requests from a wide range of artists from the wonderful to the bizarre. I'm sure Vic had the same. The job is mainly selecting the best and finding polite ways of saying no to the ones who do look as if they have at least taken the effort to look at our website. Alasdair Roberts is indeed excellent but we haven't been approached. Perhaps he should get a better agent or perhaps the agent thinks we're too down market. If we did book him, of course we would have to drop someone else. I'm not sure if the implication is that, if we booked him, the audience from the Green Door Store would turn out in droves to see him. I doubt it. If they did, would they come along to the Come-All-Ye the next week?

The only alternatives that I have seen so far seem to work on a main act with selected support basis with no clue as to how you get to be selected unless it's videoing yourself in your garden shed and sticking it up on YouTwitFace.

I realise I am slipping into the trap of thinking, along with others, that the purpose of folk clubs or even singarounds is to promote the careers of aspiring professionals. Folk clubs and singarounds and tune sessions exist as an end in themselves. They need no other justification. Oggie says "Most of the singaround clubs I've been to recently certainly won't teach anyone how to perform or put a set together with a format of one tune/song around the room.". No, that's not what they are for. The are for like minded people to get together and enjoy their own and each other's singing. If someone chooses to use it as a way of honing their skills in the hopes of moving to higher things, fine.

Oggie also says (sorry, but you keep coming out with useful quotes) - "The unpalatable (to some) truth appears to be that Folk Clubs (as in booking guests on a regular basis so that said guests can earn a living) are dying out.". No, they book guests on a regular basis to provide entertainment for the people who have laid down good money on the door. Some of those guests maybe be doing it to earn a living but I suspect the majority have day jobs.

Let's not forget that this is Folk Music and, whatever it's dubious origins, folk is a folksie sort of word for people. It's about people making music together.

(That'll learn me. Just had a general circular from Alasdair Roberts agent. I withdraw my crack about getting a better agent, one of the best in the business. Of the four acts being specifically plugged, one we booked quite recently and another turned up at the Lewes Arms quite some years ago, did a floor spot and was offered a booking there and then.)

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 10:53 AM

My pet hate in folk clubs is the raffle. The whole ceremony makes me cringe and it must totally alienate anybody under 60. It makes the event feel like bingo night in a care home.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 10:53 AM

Maybe you'd attract more youngsters if you stopped calling them Folk Clubs.
A whole bunch of us 17 year olds went to the dark haired Vic Smith's Folk Club in Lewes back in the late 60s; for some unaccountable reason it was deemed kind of cool...and some lovely girls used to attend too. Mind you, Lewes always had a political edge with the influx of academics based at Sussex University, which seemed to go very much hand in glove with folk music. I was introduced to the Lewes Arms by a school friend whose professor dad would play us Woodie Guthrie, Seeger plus Django...no escape really.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 10:18 AM

if you are competing with open mics, promote the club, explain the advantages of the folk club, market the club, keep a data base, be positive.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 10:16 AM

if folk clubs need reviving, then revive them, people like Vic who have organised clubs for many years should perhaps advise
in the meantime i will repeat my suggestions, folk clubs should try and do a club swap with places like sam lees nest collective, to bring down the age barrier, then try this... reduce prices [and publicise that] for students and people below the age of thirty,and for young unemployed people.
explain to older people why you are doing this.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Brimbacombe
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 09:52 AM

As a semi-lapsed folkie (as far as attendance goes) still desperately clinging on to the last flushes of youth, I have had some unusual experiences of folk clubs. Being steeped in folk tradition, I generally love them for what they are. But I always find it interesting when someone asks me to introduce them to a folk club.

I must admit that I do tend to try to steer them more towards a day at a folk festival as an introduction. The variety and freedom on offer means, I think, that they're more likely to return/explore further. However, the handful who have said 'no, I'd like to try a folk club' have generally not enjoyed it I'm afraid to say. Each time I've tried to take them to see a headline act that I think will entertain a newcomer (based on many factors including mid-song conversation, liveliness of songs, etc…) they've generally already made their mind up by the time the feature act has got started as they've sat through floor singers of, let's say, variable quality. On more than one occasion the length of time the floor singers have taken up has eaten into the time the main act had.

This isn't an anti-floor singer tirade, however. I have nothing but admiration for anyone who has the bravery to stand up in front of a group of people and sing unaccompanied, and I have seen plenty of very good floor singers in my time. But the thread is based around what folk clubs can do to increase their chances of survival/attract new attendees. Based on my admittedly limited experiences on this score, if folk clubs want to attract more 'passing trade' (and that's a big if - of course folk clubs shouldn't change everything that their regulars hold dear in the hope of attracting a handful of newcomers who may or may not stick around) then this is something that a good many could better address.

Poor-quality acts hogging the limelight isn't going to pack in the punters. The better/more established clubs are probably aware of that and have ways of limiting it when they have featured acts on, perhaps by giving these singers more time on open-floor nights. But for all but one of the half-dozen people I've taken to folk clubs, their first time was also their last, I'm sad to say.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 08:19 AM

"Audiences need to have more say in who gets booked? "
Unless the organiser is funding the club as a vanity project the audience has the ultimate say. If a guest can't bring in enough punters to cover the fee then they don't get booked again. That's how the market works.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 05:57 AM

I think Vic's example of Alasdair Roberts is a good one.

Though Ali has early grounding in folk music, in so far as his Dad was a folk musician, he didn't arrive as a performer via the usual 'new generation of folksingers' route. He first came to music fans' attention via his experimental indie/folk band, Appendix Out, who were far removed from the folk scene in terms of the venues and events they played, the range of music they played andf the fact they released their albums on the US indie label Drag City. They built a small but loyal fanbase completely outside of and independently of the folk scene.

When he released his first solo album of traditional songs, 'The Crook of my Arm', this was seen at the time as a brave move - the scene he played to was largely made up of people with little interest in or knowledge of traditional songs and ballads, so in a way he was sticking his neck out by nailing his colours to that particular mast. Since then he has continued to release both traditional albums and albums of his own songwriting - influenced by folksong but, lyrically especially, taking in a broad range of influences. Even when he has done versions of traditional songs, he has made few concessions to the expectations and norms of the folk scene. In fact, it can be argued that he aleady had a fine track record as a folksinger before the vast majority of people in the folk scene had even heard of him, and I'd wager he is still a mystery to many.

The point of this is to say that the folk club scene is only one aspect of how folk music gets out into the world. Historically, it was an important one in the UK context, without a doubt, but is far from the only model for the future. Like Vic, I listen to a lot of folk/traditional influenced music from other parts of the world, which has survived and thrived without the benefits of a folk club scene. I'm firmly of the opinion that the particular cultural and sociological phenomenon of the folk club, which undoubtedly had its heyday in previous decades and is now possibly entering its dotage, served a fantastic purpose, and for a relatively small number of people still does, but rather than mourn its passing or try to maintain it by means of a variety of life support machines of varying effectiveness, we should celebrate what it has given us and meanwhile let the young people do as they see fit. If some of them learn from, replicate or adapt the model, all well and good, but if they don't, it takes nothing away from what came before. Times change, nothing lasts forever. Those who want to play folk music will do so.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 04:39 AM

Audiences need to have more say in who gets booked?

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 04:06 AM

I think I might be to blame for the decline in folk clubs.
There was one on last night with a guest. A good folk club - and we are members. I usually help with the chairs at the end and play support if asked. I thought - OK, the guest is not totally my cup of tea - but add entrance fee £8 each, rounds of drinks at nearly £8 a go, petrol - its a bit of a distance and of course the raffle, and decided I did not rate the guest that much.
Is going to a folk club a habit that we have grown out of - less of a club and more like choice of entertainment for the night - as it is now not an inexpensive mid week option.
FloraG

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:57 AM

if young people only want to go to folk clubs that have people of a certain age,their own, that shows that primarily they want to be in the company of their own age group, I dont accept that all young people are concerned about primarily mixing with their own age group., it may be a factor, but it is not always more important than the music
here is one way that folk clubs can increase audiences regardless of age, keep a data base of all visitors ,exchange info with other club organisers, organise a club swap with one of the clubs mentioned that has a predominantly young audience, that is one way to break down age barriers, each club has to make the different age group welcome.
    Vic, has just given his subjective opinion about a performer he thinks is talented, undoubtedly he is, but he cannot expect another organiser to have exactly the same booking policy as him, here is an example I have been booked 25 times in fifty years at Stockton folk club, 10 times in 35 years at Faversham folk club, 3 OR 4 TIMES AT LEWES SATURDAY CLUB and once at Vic Smiths old Lewes club, would it be correct for the other organisers to suggest to Vic that he should be booking me more often, in my opinion it would not., because the organiser is the one who carries the financial burden , he therefore has the right to make his own decisions based on his knowledge of his audiences preferences it is unfortunately not just about talent.
Vic if you bring up an issue and make this statement," All true, but we must not run away with the idea that it is the only route to performing success. I have seen great performers in the five countries that I have been in this year and many of them will not even have heard of folk clubs." you must expect it to be answered.
I will continue to point out that your comment is weak, because we do not know whether there would have been more great performers if there was a folk club floor spot system in those countries.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:50 PM

"Vic,but we are discussing the uk folk clubs. wht happens elsewhere is not relevant to the discussion,"

Without getting bogged down in an argument which I won't do on Mudcat, let's consider someone that I have mentioned previously - Alasdair Roberts. I became aware of him through receiving review copies of his albums and playing them on the radio. It was clear to me right from the start that here was a major talent with a precise knowledge of the Scots tradition and who had a totally engaging way of performing Scots songs and ballads. He is a fascinating, interesting man to talk to with a deep understanding of the tradition. The first four times that I saw him was in concerts. I urged him to try to get bookings in folk clubs and he told me that he had just signed for one of the leading folk music agencies in the hope that this would happen. We booked him for our club in Lewes and he was very well received - but he has not become a folk club fixture. Look at his website; you will see that he has a full diary of dates but not one of them is to at a specialist folk music venue.
By not taking him up - and by not taking up others new names , all very talented performers of traditional material, the folk clubs have done themselves a great disservice.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Oggie
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 05:46 PM

Dick, what is happening around the world and in the UK is very relevant. The unpalatable (to some) truth appears to be that Folk Clubs (as in booking guests on a regular basis so that said guests can earn a living) are dying out. That doesn't mean that the music is dying, that young people aren't making it, they (and a large band of older ex-folk attendees) are doing it outside the traditional Folk Club circuit.

There are notable exceptions, they're noticeable because they are the exceptions, but I have been to too many truly lousy gigs in traditional Folk Clubs in the past decade for me to make a point of visiting one. Given a choice between a concert style gig and a folk club I'll now take the former anytime even when it's in a non traditional (often standing) venue.

I'm also finding that a lot of folk clubs (for understandable reasons) play it very safe. The same guests seem to come round on a two or three yearly cycle. Is that helping young talent along?

There are exceptions, but many of these are the ones that break the mold, concerts on a Sunday afternoon, guests and promotions aimed at a festival event later in the year etc. I regretfully think that the fact that Vic couldn't find someone to take over a good folk club on his retirement says a lot about the way folk clubs are perceived and going.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 05:22 PM

old people must not enjoy themselves they must die disgracefullyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NOZH0y7VxE andWhen you walk along the street
How often times you'll meet
Some poor old man who's getting old and grey
His age is feeble spent
In his pockets not a cent
And for shelter he has nowhere to go
His relations by the score
They'll turn him from the door
They'll meet him on a street, they'll pass him by
If you ask them why they do
They'll answer you and say,
"He is poor, he's old, he's only in the way"

Now let us cheer them all
For they won't be with us long
Don't point at them because they're old and grey
For remember while you're young
Old age to you will come
And you'll be old and grey and only in the way

There was a time, I hear
When young was not so queer
But since that time there's been an awful change
Young men with strength and might
To the parents they would strike
Yes, it happens every day, that's nothing strange
They strike for fear of toil
Whose children they would spoil
And sure for death ofttimes they do pray
For himself and faithful wife been toiling all their lives
To find they're old and only in the way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT1TRFrIeXI not bad for an old one, when you young whippersnappers can do better, put it up if you cant shut up

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:58 PM

I'm still at a bit of a loss to know what folk clubs can do to bring younger people in. The answers I seem to be getting are for folk clubs to stop being folk clubs and for organisers to stop being old.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Oggie
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:27 PM

Singers and musicians are getting their experience at open mikes, the unpaid part of the bill at festivals, local music venues, on the streets wherever music is being played.

Blackbeard's Tea Party was mentioned, they are long time buskers on the streets of York where their ability to hold an audience and perform was measured by the takings in the melodeon case.

Most of the singaround clubs I've been to recently certainly won't teach anyone how to perform or put a set together with a format of one tune/song around the room.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 01:40 PM

Vic,but we are discussing the uk folk clubs.
wht happens elsewhere is not relevant to the discussion, because we do not know if their had been folk clubs in those countries whether more performers would have benefited, we simply do not know.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 12:57 PM

To the above list of new London folk "clubs" I'd like to add Woodburner, The Lantern Society, The Folkroom Fortnightly, Tooting Folk. Noticeably none of them call themselves "clubs", which can give outsiders an impression that non-members are not welcome.

There are certainly plenty of talented young folk musicians around today, and looking for places to play. Just look at Folkstock .

Some established folk clubs work very hard to discover and encourage new, young, up-and-coming talent, whereas others simply book known acts that they know will bring in their regular audience. However the support & main act format naturally lends itself to fulfilling both of these needs. I have new discovered many great new artists originally as support acts.

Folk clubs (and folk music) is bound to evolve and change with the generations, particularly now, having skipped the last one or two generations. So there is definitely going to be a bit of a step change.

I think most folk clubs - and festivals too - could do A LOT MORE to really encourage and support new artists. But in many cases they need to discover these new talented artists first. They're all out there with their own websites, Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, SoundCloud etc. and presented to you on a plate by songsfromtheshed.com, Ont' Sofa Gibson Sessions, Sofar Sounds, Folkstock etc. etc.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 12:22 PM

Would she have got where she is without folk clubs?

One of the most important functions and successes of the folk club movement has been the way that the floor spot system has enabled a wide range of performers to develop their performing skills, their confidence in front of an audience etc....... All true, but we must not run away with the idea that it is the only route to performing success. I have seen great performers in the five countries that I have been in this year and many of them will not even have heard of folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: davidharley
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 12:13 PM

Living for a while in an area of the South that was virtually devoid of folk clubs or even acoustic sessions, I found that open mic audiences didn't necessarily regard a PA as a licence to talk over the performance, and that a very mixed audience was often very receptive to folky material (I mean real traddy stuff, not just acoustic singer-songwriter stuff.) Obviously all open mics are not the same, just as sessions and folk clubs vary widely. But they're not the work of the devil. :)

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 12:12 PM

Bryan wrote:-
" I take it they didn't offer you a floor spot. "

None of the venues that I mentioned in my post above are run on folk club lines. Main/support artist is the norm - just as if you were going to a concert at The Dome, The Hawth or wherever in our area, though the numbers at the smaller venue gigs that I mentioned are generally under 100.
They present country, folk, a little jazz, singer/songwriters and rock bands (generally fairly unknown ones that have more intelligent lyrics. The venues are catering for an audience that does not see itself committed exclusively to one genre but will give anything that has a reasonably cerebral approach a listen. I reckon that this is a very common attitude amongst the rising generation of intelligent music enthusiasts.
I am totally committed to traditional music and song, otherwise why would I have been running a weekly folk club for 50 years..... but I don't think that music begins and ends with English folk music.
Yes, I was at the utterly hardcore traditional festival last weekend, but tomorrow I am very excited to be off to four days of lovely music from all over the world at WOMAD. I have been to a jazz event and two concerts by leading African performers during this July. I have also played five gigs this month - all with our dance band and none of them for a folk music crowd. We are playing traditional dance tunes to people who would never otherwise get a chance to hear them. Nearly always there are one or two people who come up to members of the band and ask about the music, its background, the instruments etc.
I think that it would do a lot of folkies good to get out of their ghetto and enjoy a wider range of music. Certainly, in terms of organisation, of the way we present out music, we have lots to learn.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Nick
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 11:14 AM

York also benefits from a university and there has always been a fair degree of cross over between the university and the various venues in York itself - for example the Victoria Vaults Friday night session is always generally frequented by a fair number of young players during term time.

And quite a lot then spill over into playing at festvals etc - eg Blackbeards Tea Party were originally started from university folk though personnel has altered over time.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: r.padgett
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 11:00 AM

I certainly applaud all the initiatives which have been instigated as well as those in Sheffield which have afforded the necessary exposure to folk song traditional music etc

Sheffield is a two University city and as such has a large catchment of students as well as many other people from other Nations and Irish and Scottish ~ this has helped foster the playing of music in the pubs and of course specific work on Sword dancing by Ron Day and Paul Davenport and continuation of Ceildihs has all contributed to folks future development ~ outside of folk clubs and Concert clubs

Wakefield is a City but devoid of Universities has few folk clubs but similarly has live folk music and traditional song sessions, sadly few youngsters have made it yet, however Sarah Horn has recently graduated with degree in Physics and was encouraged by her school music teacher [Graham] and is now a highly accomplished fiddler. Watch this space ~ I believe she and James Cudworth are at Warwick ff this year

Amy Condrey is an other name to watch, who has been at college in Barnsley

BTW I am more than happy for new initiatives in Barnsley, for example Alan Jones's Celtic session and Flash sessions have all raised the local scene and attracted excellent comments about live music

Takes years to develop musicianship and longer for singers unless naturally gifted
Ray

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 10:56 AM

ic, the Alasdair Roberts, Elle Osborne event sounds great but I take it they didn't offer you a floor spot. Two well established professionals providing quality entertainment but how did they get there? I first remember Elle as a teenager doing floor spots at the Royal Oak. Would she have got where she is without folk clubs?
good points

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 10:03 AM

GUEST,Peter
In London try Softly Softly, Jamboree, Upstairs at The Ritzy, The Glad, The Harrison, Nest Collective, Ceilidh Club and more that I can't remember.

Thanks, Peter. That tells me some of the "where" but I'm not sure it helps with the "what". Apart from the excellent Nest Collective which few of us can hope to emulate it seems to be a rag bag of sessions and events barely distinguishable from folk clubs. Perhaps the critical factor is selected acts and "No Bloody Floor Singers".

Vic, the Alasdair Roberts, Elle Osborne event sounds great but I take it they didn't offer you a floor spot. Two well established professionals providing quality entertainment but how did they get there? I first remember Elle as a teenager doing floor spots at the Royal Oak. Would she have got where she is without folk clubs?

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Nick
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:48 AM

The one certainty about the future is that it is unpredictable.

Or is it?

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:09 AM

i am entitled to dismiss opinions on the future, because the future is unpredictable

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:18 AM

unfortunately, good soldier, s, I find that going to a folk club is not always a guarantee that everyone listens, but thankfully on the other hand sometimes most people at an open mic might mostly listen.
wishing open mics away might not benefit folk by disappearing. folkies at open mics, might even broaden musical interests.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Nick
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:17 AM

I can predict the future. These are all the winning lottery numbers for ALL the forthcoming weeks -
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,49
All you have to do is pick out a few each week...

We have a very well known and supported Folk Club in the Black Swan in York (mostly a concert venue with a singers night once a month) but Roland has his hands full each year - and a measure of risk - in choosing a diverse range of acts across a year that will attract bums onto seats and keep the clubs finances on an even keel. He manages it very well but he can't really predict what works and what doesn't even with his (good) judgement based on years of doing it.

It ranges from unaccompanied singers (Hissyfit were well received and supported recently) to bands either at the pub or at a larger concert venue.

There are buckets of people though who come to something like Steve Knightley playing in our local village hall (I know a fair number of people but recognised perhaps a tenth of the audience). There are a whole other group of people who go to festivals and pubs and see a band like this - Holy Moly and the Crackers who you would not see at a folk club. And you probably wouldn't see the (young) people in the band at a folk club even if their roots are (self professed) in folk amongst other genres. I pick them because I know some of them through my son and have enjoyed a sing with them in the past in a local pub and at a party in their house; they are typical of many similar groups of people appealing to people of a range of ages.

I think this discussion has been had many times on here.

Folk clubs have this weird personality disorder. To those who don't go to them they have an image of jumpers, beards, fingers in ears and long unaccompanied dirges with lots of death; they aren't. To those who used to go but don't so much they are places that have become divorced from their roots of proper folk music because its purity has been tainted over time; they probably aren't this either. To those who go they are curious mix of wannabe players who may either be good or not supporting artists who will put bums on seats and be something linked to a broad definition of folk.

I'm sure that the ones that do well are the ones who have a very clear idea of what they are doing and delivering to a known (and hopefully evolving) audience, and have a clear idea of market they are in without a need to compromise their vision. Whatever that vision is.

I haven't been to Lewes but, from the outside, am pretty sure that they will survive and grow as they seem very clear on what they do. The Black Swan will keep going for as long as Roland and his team of helpers and supporters choose. Somewhere like Wigan folk club (which I haven't been to for a long time) was a very well supported but very different sort of place. Swinton was another that comes to mind.

My personal experience has been that it is difficult to maintain something that is relatively broad church. There seems a constant pressure for factions to convert a club/gathering into their particular narrower passion. Depending on how popular that particular interest is to other listeners is where it either succeeds or falls on its ass.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:03 AM

"Folk Club according to model of floorsingers and guests, with a trad-only policy etc, yes that'll probably die out within 20 years."
I seem to remember that being said back in 1991 when we started up Traditions at the Tiger/Tigerfolk.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:55 AM

Two variables;

Folk versus what the hell is folk anyway?

Singaround versus audience

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:27 AM

A lot of clubs have "painted themselves into the corner" by developing a demographic where the youngest person in the club is well over 50. You aren't going to get an influx of twenty somethings once a club has reached that position.

The few club organisers who are under 40 need to be aware of how that problem developed and work continuously on keeping a demographic spread and not letting the club develop into a group of mates who all left school within a few years of each other.

I agree with GSS (which makes a change) on the value of the club format in developing not only performers but also the appreciation of the music by the audience. However it certainly isn't my place to tell others that their chosen way of experiencing music is wrong and mine is right.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:18 AM

There'll always be young people who are interested in folk, but they'll always be small in number and they'll invariably want to sing their own songs that they've written as well as trad ones. That's just how it is.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Fyldeplayer
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:08 AM

Having spent a lot of time recently digging the internet for club info in hope of gigs/contact, I find a high percentage of 'folk club' links end at what is clearly a non-guest oriented gathering, fine, I attend similar which is titled Acoustic Club.

I think there is two issues changing 'folk clubs' young musical people generally hanging out 'somewhere??' other than FC's and older people with some dosh prefering the comfort and style of concert venues.

This is however a very localised 'southern' view - I expect a bigger view as described by Paul Davenport would show otherwise.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:07 AM

Folk Club according to model of floorsingers and guests, with a trad-only policy etc, yes that'll probably die out within 20 years.

But I don't see why regular acoustic nights that encourage traditional singing, with a mix of singer-songwriter and "Proper Folk" stuff shouldn't continue til the earth becomes uninhabitable.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Mandoman77
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:51 AM

We are all entitled to put our opinions on the future GSS, you should not dismiss them just because you don't agree them. Whilst I understand where you are coming from, things are evolving and its better to along with it, than to keep harking back to a world that no longer exists.

My early contact with Folk Clubs was in the days of the Clancy Bros, Spinners, McCalmans, Corries, Diz Disley, Derek Brimstone, Jasper Carrot etc etc, all of which usually involved singing our heads off by 11pm. However, somewhere along the line something changed and it became an exercise in navel gazing, being thoughtful, being responsible, the agony of the worlds problems and the like. Whilst I would not wish to make light of such things, its not going to form the basis of a good night out. Now I don't know if this has anything to do with the demise of the Folk Club, but it sure can't help.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Graham Carter
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 06:41 AM

We started a new Folk Club in Strathaven, South Lanarkshire recently which has proved popular and been well attended by young and old alike. As a performer myself it gradually dawned on me that it's no good moaning about lack of suitable places to play if you aren't prepared to do something about it yourself. Having been a regular attender and performer at Folk Clubs for several years now, I can't speak highly enough of them. If you want to learn about Folk Music and meet people who walk the walk and talk the talk, they are THE place to go. Where else can you meet people who have seen Big Bill Broonzy live!   I hope others take the plunge and get some more new clubs on the go.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:53 AM

there are people who state categorically that something is the future [how do they know?]if you can predict the future please tell us all the winning lottery numbers.
one sensible person Vic Smith talks from his own experience [he was welcomed]. open mike is not good it encourages the music to be treated as background music, this music should be shown the same respect as classical music ,the words are important and it needs to be LISTENED too, the sooner open mic goes out of fashion the better in my opinion

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:51 AM

Steve Gardham writes; 'In places where the old guard have allowed things to evolve, like Sheffield, there is a vibrant scene with plenty of mixed generations.'
The story there is a salutary one; the old guard didn't 'allow' things to evolve, they created the evolution! Basically two things happened at the same time. Firstly, the South Riding Folk Network was created to 'join up the dots' and secondly the University 'Folk Society' changed its name to the 'Ceilidh Society' or 'CeilidhSoc'. The movers and shakers at the Uni were involved with, and even become officers of, the SRFN and we all played and danced together for a long time. Sheffield's folk life ad the very successful Sheffield Folk Sessions Festival (see; http://www.sheffieldseshfest.org.uk )   
are all the result of a lot of people's hard work and dedication over many years.
By the way, please visit the website and, better still, come and try our festival over next Easter weekend.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:31 AM

I've just come back from Tolpuddle. For those who have not heard of it, its the location of 6 agricultural workers who were sentenced to transportation for union oath swearing. Each year the TUC put on a weekend festival and march the union banners up the high street.
I am always surprised at the number of musicians/singers who go - not just the paid acts. Many write their own songs - often on the protest side.
Artic monkies pay your tax
its our money and we want it back etc.
There is a wide age range.
I do wonder where they go the rest of the year. I certainly have not seen them at my local folk club.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Roger in Baltimore
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 06:06 PM

I currently live in musically sparse location (if you don't count bluegrass. There are three "folk clubs" within a hundred miles of me. These are church venues who offer folk music on a once a month basis. Before I left Baltimore (which has one club run by the same dedicated people) that presents music a few times each month.

What I still hear a lot about are House Concerts. These are performances in people's home that accept donations. In Washington, D.C. they still exist, and I suspect in Baltimore.

I remember the "'60's" when there were regular places where music was presented on a near daily basis. In Baltimore I attended "The Foghorn" and in D.C. "The Cellar Door". There were more I attended, but my memory does not evoke them.

Folk Music is not as popular as it was back then, but it still exists and it is still presented, just not with as much regularity. There are young people who are presenting and they add their own personalities to the music. There is a thriving system for singersongwriters individually in groups. Much of what I hear is "new music" with is presented acoustically by itinerant musicians. So the music has evolved. We can play traditional or we can play "new music."

Much changes, but there is still much music.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 05:20 PM

That's the problem with the real world.

I endorse everything pete just said.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:08 PM

I really only started to get an interest in "folk" when I was looking for an open mic, following the closure of another open mic.
the folk club alternated open mic and singaround, with guests also, which it seems were paid largely from raffle proceeds, though I think the landlord also chipped in.
I find that most young people are in the open mic scene , and I have often been encouraged by young interest in my songs.....though admittedly I am not exactly traditional folk. but I have also seen folk acts well received by all ages at open mics.
so it may well be that for interest in folk to stay healthy that the emphasis needs to be on acoustic and open mic, rather than appear specialist.

on the subject of performers using books or sheets, or these days I-pads on music stands, i think it best not to complain, unless you want even less participants. having said that, it is discouraging to see everyone else fussing about what they will do next, and hardly anyone listening.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:07 PM

Davemc - ok you prefer concerts, but where do you think the performers acquired their performance skills in front of audiences...?

Kitty

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:04 PM

It's harder for clubs to find venues where people feel comfortable performing and listening - as mentioned above by Mandoman777, you can't expect young people to take on the financial responsibility of paying for a room and paying artists and hoping to get enough bums on seats if it's a concert club, but even finding venues for informal singarounds and open stage clubs without paid guests is tricky, especially if the venue has to be paid for.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,davemc
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:04 PM

Hardly ever go to my local folk club, these days. I'd rather see folk acts in arts centres and other comfortable venues where I don't have to humour resident singers who get in the way of the act I've really come to see. The tickets cost much more but the enjoyment, in my view, is usually greater.