Folk Clubs Dying Out

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 01:26 PM

I think we have to accept that its not us lot running things. the heroes of my generation have all gone - Gerry lockran. noel murphy, Derek brimstone, tony capstick, tommy Dempsey, alex Campbell, ian Campbell.......these guys and many more were all my nights out.

theres been a change of regime. theres some great stuff around....oh but I do miss those guys.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: growler
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 04:37 PM

Reading the above, we are lucky at The Good Intent in Rochester. The club welcomes anyone of any ability. The pub also has an 'open mike night'. It is well attended, despite other folk clubs within driving distance, the nearest being 300 yards away. I am proud of what we have achieved, over the last ten years and from my local experience, folk is not dying but becoming more healthy

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 05:13 PM

" folk is not dying but becoming more healthy "
I agree but the point under discussion is the folk club rather than folk generally. The two are not the same.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Rachel
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 06:00 PM

I regularly attend the folk club at the Good Intent too, having being involved in the 'Folk Club scene'for only about three and a half years; so compared to some I am a newbee really. The folk club in question, is highly welcoming, a place to grow and develop musically, listen to great music, enjoy collective singing where I'm beginning to learn a lot of the choruses...and with regard to the 'point under discussion', is certainly thriving.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:25 AM

It might be easier to form an accurate judgement as to whether or not "Folk clubs are dying out", if people were to give some indication of the number of people currently attending these clubs mentioned above on a typical night, and in particular, compared with 10 or 20 years ago.
If your club's been going for 10 or 20 years, are you getting smaller or larger audiences now than you were then ?
Just to take one instance from the post immediately above - Rachel - how many of an audience constitutes a "thriving" club these days ?
I've no axe to grind here, but am just genuinely curious.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:28 AM

I meant to say in my earlier post that we have many excellent young folk and traditional music artists up here. They haven't all been through the folk music degree courses or the Plockton "Centre of Excellence" school. It is easy for people to be disparaging about them (along the lines of "all technique but no musicality") but my experience of listening to them has, on the whole, been different. They get gigs at folk clubs as well as festivals, and usually bring in an enthusiastic crowd of young supporters to the audience, at least on those nights, if not every week: they mostly know their subject very well, having researched the provenance of any songs or tunes they do. And there are many great projects throughout Scotland to encourage young people to take up an instrument and play folk music.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:36 AM

Yes, well, in this country (UK) the folk world is a closed down community and woe betide ANYONE not of the right heritage (that being the folk world itself) who DARES to try and make it more popular...

You wanted it kept your own little world, you have it.

The one thing you all forgot was that you won't be here forever and instead of letting others try to get the word out, be they artists or those who love the music, you pounce on them, ridicule them, shut them out and do all you can to shut them up....

Ho hum

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:44 AM

I think that the trad music universities could do a module on ' running events'. ( from folk clubs to festivals).It would not be everyones cup of tea but event management is a growing occupation.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:50 AM

excellent,Flora, Very good idea.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:23 AM

Lizzie as usual goes right over the top but there is a germ of truth in her post.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 06:08 AM

A quick look at the on-line guide to the Newcastle degree suggests that they do an optional module on "enterprise" but it looks as if it is more about being a self employed musician rather than branching out into being a promoter or agent.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Tony Rath aka Tonyteach
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 06:37 AM

FAO Big Al Whittle

I agree about most of the names you quoted However they were persons who refreshed themselves frequently and with great damage to the internal organs

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 08:35 AM

the problem is not wit the maeketing opportunities or festival organisation.

on the contrary the middle class gang at bbc4,etc has given the folk world repeated creative opportunities ordinary musicians can only dream about.

the problem is the music. you have laboured mightily to create a style of music that alienates the general listener. you have suceded beyond your wildest dreams - now even great songs from the folk world are not making it to a wider market in the way that Ralph Mctell and the dubs did with in our generation.

all this stuff about the ist world war - where are Eric Bogle's - not in the charts. its old news to us, but might it not stir hearts that missed out June Tabor nearly forty years back. perhaps in a more accessible style.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 11:38 AM

another worthwhile idea in my opinion is to start Song Writing Clubs, Clubs where people can go to perform their own material and where the music is listened to in the same way as it is in Folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: mikesamwild
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 01:04 PM

When I got into Folk Clubs in the mid 1950s I wanted to learn from older singers and players and to sing to and with my own age group. After a while I joined the grownups and went into the public bar with traditional musicians. I still supported the clubs but agreed with Ralph Vaughan Williams' who said that the collecting and conserving etc of the first revival was really to give the songs back to the people. The second and now 'New English' third revivals are still doing that.

I don't think clubs will die as young 'Nu Folk' fans will still have to go upstairs in pubs and maybe other venues. They will also no doubt walk past the 'Nu Trad' singers and players in the bar on their way to rediscover and reinvent our heritage.

meanwhile if the music has permeated popular music in its many forms should we lose sleep? Keep it live and keep it alive!

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:21 PM

Not all of them Tony. Some are just too old to go out on the road - like Derek. Ewan - he's gone too - he was never a pisshead.

Ithink I would like to add - that maybe the tradition was too determined to look back at the past of the music - rather than forward at the audience - and their needs. Needs which change in every age - but was there ever an age with as much change as the 20th century,

It caught everybody out....church, state, political institutions, social frameworks.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM

@ Kenny
I can't make a comparison between numbers attending on a typical night now and twenty years ago as my experience only spans three years.
A typical night at my club has around 20 people attending. I've seen numbers reaching almost thirty.
From my own observations, as a relative newcomer, thriving isn't just about numbers attending. For me, It's also about inclusivity,diversity of players/singers, range of abilities, feeling safe to try something out and make mistakes without judgement, having a laugh, sharing ideas,sometimes instruments, a warm welcome for newcomers ( and there have been several while I have been attending,)masses of sandwiches served on the night( including cheese and onion!) good ales (although I'm a lager drinker, I'm afraid),regular concert nights, special folk events involving loads more ale and more sandwiches.
The regular folk nights sees regulars attending that neither play nor sing, but just like to listen to the music, as does the landlady.
This is my own definition of 'thriving'and it keeps me coming back week after week, work willing.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Rachel
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:23 PM

Sorry re. above post...that was me...Rachel

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Mandoman77
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:23 PM

Great idea Big Al, singer songwriting clubs, but wait a minute who would that leave to perform at Folk Clubs, but then again who cares if the bar is open.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 07:05 PM

it was me not big al, it would leave plenty of people in folk clubs , because there is nothing to stop people who are song writers going to both, or the many people who like blues and tradtional songs would still go to folk clubs,
mandoman 77 your comment is plain silly.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 09:21 PM

Got news for y'all. Folk clubs ain't dying out.

First, there are as many definitions of folk clubs as there are people.

Second, Dick Miles--with whom I have a love/hate affair unbeknownst to him--is correct. "if you are competing with open mics, promote the club, explain the advantages of the folk club, market the club, keep a data base, be positive."

I do disagree that explaining means much: it's better to show.

Folk clubs aren't dying, imo, folk singers are.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,#
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 09:22 PM

That was me.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 12:07 AM

I do like this idea of a singer songwriters club. Anyone interested in setting one up in Manchester UK?

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 12:56 AM

if people are singing folk songs,how can folk singers be dying?, of course we are all dying from the time we are born, generally I prefer to think that I am living from the moment I was born,the other philosophical outlook seems a trifle pessimistic.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 04:39 AM

Al yearns for the the same times as me, I think. My drinking apprenticeship was getting them in for Tony Capstick... But the problem is, we turn up at these "people sitting around with books" nights and try to compare them to folk clubs.

Perhaps we are also trying to capture a well misspent youth when bemoaning what people call folk clubs now?

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:06 AM

@Rachel - thank you for your reply. I'm afraid I can't agree with you, but wish you the best of luck with your music.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:29 AM

GUEST,kenny said
> @Rachel - thank you for your reply. I'm afraid I can't agree with you, but wish you the best of luck with your music.

Was that a reply to a PM? I can't see how it relates to her 27 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM post.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:41 AM

clubs whether they be song writing clubs or folk clubs or acoustic music or blues clubs are important in my opinion, because they have a root in a community, they are places where people make their own music, and where people turn up specifically to listen. open mics are not acoustic and there is in my opinion a tendency for it to be background music, when that happens, i feel it is disrespectful to the performer and the music. of course it does not mean that every open mic is going to be treated as background music, but ic acan mean that there will be a number of people there who are not there to listen to the music, unless the open mic is held in a seperate room.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 06:46 AM

For various reasons I've not been active on Mudcat for a few weeks, but I thought I'd just add a personal comment on a question that's cropped up here and there on this thread: Why did no-one take up the reigns of the highly successful weekly, Royal Oak Club in Lewes, after the retirement of Vic and Tina Smith?

When I heard the news that Vic and Tina were bowing out at the Royal Oak, I considered having a serious shot at running it - perhaps not in quite the same way as it had been run by Vic and Tina, as we all have our own views on how things should be done - but certainly with a view to keeping it going. I felt it was a great shame that such a successful club, with a number of good residents and an excellent reputation in the folk world, should just close. I had had experience of running clubs in the past, for example the BBC Folk Club (Clanfolk) back in the '60s. Having thought hard about it, I did three things:

(1) I set down on paper my own thoughts on how to keep it going and what I felt would be needed
(2) I contacted - and was coincidentally contacted - by two or three like-minded friends in the area
(3) I spoke at some length to Vic and Tina about the whole situation

Without going into details about my conversation with Vic and Tina, suffice to say that they were both very supportive of the idea, had a great of sympathy with many of my own thoughts, and had a huge amount of excellent advice for me on lots of practical procedures. They also gave me some insight into their own "succession planning" and how, for various reasons, it had not turned out as they had expected. So far, so good.

Armed with this data, I had more detailed conversations with the people who had indicated that they might like to be involved. It very soon transpired that, although there was a great deal of theoretical interest, there was - for various quite understandable reasons - a reluctance on the part of those same people to commit time and energy on a regular basis. In effect, it would have been virtually a one-man band - with me as the band. Quite simply, I couldn't do it on my own. None of the people involved, including myself, lived in Lewes, making publicity (and even travel in some winter conditions) a difficult task. None of the people involved could commit to a regular routine. None of us was getting any younger - I'm just a few months younger than Vic and reach my "threescore years and ten" very shortly.

Ironically, and without wishing to blow our own trumpets, those of us who had contemplated getting the club up and going again also had good performing and musical skills - I say "ironically", because, in the end, that was probably the crucial factor in not being able to commit to the club. We were just too busy gigging and doing our own things in performance to be able to spare the extra time needed to run the Royal Oak club. For example, I play jazz and ragtime in one duo, music hall and instrumental music in another, and play regularly in a ceilidh band. I help Stu Reed to run the monthly Brighton Acoustic Session, and I run my own monthly session/singaround in my local Sussex village. All of this as well as participating in other local sessions and musical events.

In hindsight perhaps it was just wishful thinking on my part to have contemplated taking on the burden in the first place - but I felt genuinely sad that the club had folded, and still do.

Subject: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 07:48 AM

@ Richard Mellish. No PM sent, only my post.
@ Kenny. No agreement or good opinion sought, only stating my perspective. Good luck with your music too.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 08:07 AM

I can't avoid the image of Big Al and Musket slumped in big comfy armchairs in their Home for Old Folkies grumbling that the weekly singaround organised by their kindly carers isn't like the folk clubs they remember from their youth.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 08:25 AM

well you can keep yer thieving hands off my ringbinder, musket! i'll have a chocolate hob nob with me cocoa and Countdown's on in a minute....anyway, what are you doing here?. i thought rich gits like you went in BUPA homes!

Didn't Tony Capstick have a beautiful voice. Who before or since sang the Bonny Bunch of Roses with a voice that could tear you heart out? I'm sure he got fed up with me requesting it.

'By the margins of the ocean.....etc'

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Mandoman77
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:13 AM

I think Will Flys post, illustrates the problem in a nut shell.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 12:39 PM

Aye, it was his party piece and I try to sing it to the same tune.

Incidentally, Amazon have an MP3 download of various live songs and intros of his on sale. I bought it. Yes, Bonny Bunch of Roses is on it, as well as The Recruited Collier, Wine with Dinner, Sheffield Grinder and a few more old chestnuts. Took me back to The Boundary, that did..

BUPA homes? Are you serious? They allow council funded referrals. I'm not cohorting with the proletariat in my dotage! It's going to have to be far more exclusive than that! Mind you, after a couple of years of inspecting the buggers as part of my work with CQC up till last year, I have mixed views on the whole idea..

You can't get stuck in any old home, they might allow the likes of The Snail in them. Clapton forbid who else from Mudcat you might bump into!

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 01:13 PM

OMG you might even have some "young" (60-ish) folkies come round and sing to you! And of course you would be expected to know "Keep the Home Fires Burning" and "Tipperary".

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 02:03 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQE3AS3Vzb0 a good version.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 02:27 PM

Meet me at the folk club, don't be late,
I need to sing some Richard and it just wont wait.
Blow out the candles and turn on the light,
I don't want to hear "The Bright Lights" tonight.

Naw, you're right. It'd be Tipperary...

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 03:42 AM

Folk clubs are a lot of work. The easiest to run are those that stick to the same format eg a guest every week or a session every week. The most time consuming are those that mix and match - club nights - open mikes - showcases of open mikers -the best open mikers supporting paid guests.
It helps if you have a supportive venue, real ale, free room, and donated food or raffle prize.
There is a case for paying admin fees to committee over and above expenses- but I'm not sure how the tax authorities would view this?
There is also a case for having a list of good agents. Some ask for thing like accomodation when the artist does not need it. Do agents communicate with their artists? Too many do not do their basic research, trying to promote artists charging £2000 when the club room takes 40.
Would mudcat be a suitable place for listing good agents?
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Vic Smith
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 05:50 AM

Would mudcat be a suitable place for listing good agents?

The problem would be to try to make the the listing anything more than experiential or anecdotal. I had a very bad time with one booking made through a Bristol agent, but others probably found him fine to work with.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 06:04 AM

"Do agents communicate with their artists?"
A club organiser who I know once received a contract that was pitched at a pop concert with requirements for a private dressing room with fresh fruit etc. She had known the artist for decades and on phoning was told to just put a line through those sections.

Admin fees - HMRC would expect their cut from the recipients. I would be more worried about the arrangement getting classed as employment with a whole raft of regulations to think about.

Agents - its a lot easier to do a single mail out than to customise each one and just because the club room takes 40 doesn't mean that the club doesn't get involved with bigger events either in it's own right or in conjuncton with others.

Which is of course another aspect of promoting the club, be proactive and get involved in local music and arts festivals to put quality folk music in front of a non specialist public and promote the club.

Remember a person doesn't become a prospective new member until:
1. They decide that they like, or at least want to try, folk music
2. They know that there is such a thing as a folk club

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:21 AM

As a young person it would appear a lot more attractive a proposition to go to a festival at the weekend - there are enough for every weekend in the year now - than to go down the local folk club and feeling in an alien environment with much older people. Although folk club s describe themselves as friendly it often means that folks who started the club together aeons ago are friendly to each other. Young can have chats with strangers at festivals and make friends. Not sure club give the time and space for that. Folk clubs are painting themselves into a corner.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 04:55 PM

Folk clubs are folk clubs, festivals are festivals, singarounds are singarounds, concerts are concerts and (Heaven help us) open mics are open mics. They all serve different needs and all make their own contribution. There is no need to set one against another.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Mandoman77
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM

GUEST spells out the problem. Unfortunately its irresolvable.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 03:20 AM

Young guest - what would you advise to change things?
In one folk club I go to a lot of the tables are reserved so the same people sit together so you don't get to know them. I would not recommend that.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 03:52 AM

FloraG: The youngsters I know don't see a need to change things. They have their own places to hang out musically, whether they be festivals, open mics or "acoustic evenings" at a local pub. The people who seem to want to change things are the existing, and largely older, denizens of folk clubs started in the 60s who's members have grown old along with the club and who now, finally, see the writing on the wall for their beloved institutions.

I've said here before that there's a vibrant musical scene all around where I live, but that the various age groups seem quite cut-off from each other, with a few notable exceptions. I've managed to get a number of young people along to some of the "established" folk clubs/ events in the area but they never stick. At least they give it a go...I've never yet managed to get one of my "more mature" acquaintances from one of these clubs to go along to an event organised/ attended by younger people. Too far out of their comfort zones I guess.

Personally, these days, I prefer going to open mics, singarounds and the kind of session that Will Fly alluded to that's held monthly in Ditchling. They seem a lot more relaxed and open to different styles of singing/ playing than a typical "old-fashioned" folk club.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Vic Smith
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 05:41 AM

Rob,
I would agree with a lot of what you said. The atmosphere at the Ditchling session is great (though I hated the acoustics of the room at The Bull) and open mics and singarounds play an important part.
What they don't have and what a folk club does and should have is the ability to bring a variety of the very best performers of varied ages and styles to an area. The ability to see top singers and musicians in an intimate atmosphere should be inspiring to non-musician enthusiasts and to the area's aspiring musicians. The folk club is in a unique position to do this and will only succeed if it takes on this role. If it descends into being a gathering of regular old cronies that does not seek to achieve the presention of excellence then inevitably it will fail.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,The Goose Is Out!
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 07:23 AM

many people on here saying that up and coming clubs don't run the 2 45 minute sets by guest artist and floorsingers format, we've been doing that since we started several years ago -

I see plenty of activity around and about from younger up and coming people starting their own clubs, It's quite refreshing.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,Mandoman77
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 08:32 AM

It is a fact of life that old and young won't mix. The very last place I wanted to be when I was young was with a lot of older foggies listening to the likes of Doris Day, Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald etc, thats one of the the reasons I went a Folk Club in the first place. Sure you will get some young people through the door, but they tend to go when they have done their spot and rarely come back. The only other youngsters who may stay a bit longer are the sons and daughters of the older performers. Its just the way the world works.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: GUEST,SqueezeMe
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 08:34 AM

I read this thread title as "Folk Clubs Drying Out". Consequently I ignored it till now as I imagined the op suggesting a return to the coffee bar scene of the '60s. But then again, perhaps this is worth some consideration (or not?) Certainly, the breathalyser has had some effect on reduced attendances, and there are a fair number of people who won't attend functions in pubs for other reasons.

MC (ducking to avoid flying glasses and bottles, though, luckily, no ashtrays these days...)

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs Dying Out
From: Vic Smith
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 10:03 AM

It is a fact of life that old and young won't mix. The very last place I wanted to be when I was young was with a lot of older foggies listening to the likes of Doris Day, Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald etc, thats one of the the reasons I went a Folk Club in the first place.

You may be right, but I, for one, find this baffling.

When I first started running folk clubs when I was 20. The guest performers that I booked included Bob Copper, Packie Byrne, Willie Scott, Seamus Ennis, Rev. Gary Davis, The Border Shepherds, Scan Tester etc. people old enough to be my grandparents. We had two families who had three generations as club regulars.

Last year, when I was 70, I booked Ben Copper, Jim Causley, Hazel & Emily Askew. Debs Newbold, Laurel Swift and a teenage quartet from Brighton. Matt Quinn was one of the club's residents. All these people are young enough to be my grandchildren.

I find it difficult to see what age has to do with it.