BS: Last of the Yazidis

Subject: Last of the Yazidis
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 09:43 PM

"From: robomatic - PM
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 09:32 PM

In very little time a great deal more violence is being exercised on the Yazidis. For those who overuse the word 'genocide' this is a real case:
The Last of the Yezhidis
I'm waiting for someone to start a thread on this."

Done!

Subject: RE: Last of the Yizhidis
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 09:45 PM

Tried to correct spelling of the victimized group in Subject. Maybe a Mod can. Thanks.

---

There were several spellings in this thread alone. This mod has defaulted to the spelling available at USAToday ---mudelf

Subject: RE: Last of the Yazidis
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 05:23 AM

They are the victims of an evil philosophy that will not suffer to live anyone not accepting their exact belief system.
Cruel fanatics driven by intolerance and hatred.

Their flag is flying over part of London.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 12:44 PM

Robomatic, I have culled postings regarding the Yazidis from the Caliphate thread so you will know they have been disussed. I have cut and pasted them exactly, except that I have (deleted) references to other religio-ethnic confrontations (if they did not affect the meaning of the post) so the focus is solely on them.
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From: bobad - PM
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:43 AM

"Iraq's Yazidi minority has fled from Islamic State fighters as the UN says 'a humanitarian tragedy' is unfolding in Sinjar."

Al Jazeera
(deleted)
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From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 09:27 AM

I have an idea. The USA can take its aid from Israel and give it to the Yazidi.

I did however think we were all agreed that ISIS were uncivilised wankers - and the further they go the more Muslims say that ISIS in no way truly represents Islam (as neither does Boko Haram).   Or do you differ, Poo-bad?
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From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 11:32 AM

Iraq's jihadis have vowed to wipe out the Yazidis. Who are they?
The ancient religious group, concentrated in Iraq, have been targeted for extermination by the so-called 'Islamic State' that seized a number of towns along the Iraq-Syrian border this week.

Christian Science Monitor By Lydia Tomkiw
46 minutes ago

The arrival of the self-styled "Islamic State" (IS) in the northern Iraqi town of Sinjar over the weekend sent the native religious minority fleeing. Yazidis, labeled by IS (formerly the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, ISIS) "devil worshippers," have a long history of persecution.

Forty Yazidi children were reported killed and reports of forced conversions and murders have now emerged. A Yazidi parliamentarian fleeing northern Iraq told the Washington Post, "In our history, we have suffered 72 massacres. We are worried Sinjar could be a 73rd."

The Sinjar area, near the border with Syria, is strategically important for IS, just 50 miles from Mosul. The United Nations has said close to 200,000 have fled the area, calling it a "humanitarian tragedy."

http://news.yahoo.com/iraqs-jihadis-vowed-wipe-yazidis-144449482.html
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From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 12:09 PM

BBC same story.

"The UN children's agency has expressed "extreme concern" over reports that 40 children from Iraq's Yazidi minority died after an offensive by jihadists.

Unicef says reports indicate the children died as a "direct consequence of violence, displacement and dehydration" over the past two days.

Thousands of Yazidis fled into the mountains after the Islamic State (IS) overran the town of Sinjar on Sunday.

Yazidis follow an ancient faith that jihadists condemn as devil worship.

"Families who fled the area are in immediate need of urgent assistance, including up to 25,000 children who are now stranded in mountains surrounding Sinjar and are in dire need of humanitarian aid, including drinking water and sanitation services," Unicef said.

BBC Arab affairs editor Sebastian Usher says the Unicef statement goes some way towards confirming some of the most disturbing reports coming out of the heartland of the Yazidi community.

Images posted on the internet showed small clusters of people gathered on the sides of a canyon in the Sinjar mountains.

There have been unconfirmed reports of massacres in Yazidi villages by the jihadists, our correspondent adds"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28663926
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From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 01:50 PM

There have been unconfirmed reports of massacres in Yazidi villages by the jihadists, our correspondent adds.

Jawhar Ali Begg, a spokesman for the Yazidi community, said on Monday that after overrunning Sinjar, IS (formerly known as Isis) had given them an ultimatum to convert to Islam, pay a tax or face death.




There are estimated to be around 500,000 Yazidis worldwide, most living in Iraq's Nineveh plains
In August 2007 jihadists attacked Yazidi villages in Nineveh, killing between 400 and 700 people


400 to 700 out of 500,000-

Compared to 1,900 out of 1,800,000 Gazans- YET NO_ONE HERE CALLS IT GENOCIDE.
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From: bobad - PM
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 04:43 PM

Kurdish members of Iraq's Yezidi religious minority in Sinjar are being massacred by ISIS if they refuse to convert to Islam. They're ancient fire-worshipers with roots in Zoroastrianism and they long predate the Koran.

More than 300 of them so far have been murdered for their religion alone.

Killings of this sort on a large scale are called genocide.

ISIS Exterminating Minorities in Iraq
(deleted)
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From: bobad - PM
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:05 PM

Where's the UN on this one?

BAGHDAD — Stranded on a barren mountaintop, thousands of minority Iraqis are faced with a bleak choice: descend and risk slaughter at the hands of the encircled Sunni extremists or sit tight and risk dying of thirst.

Humanitarian agencies said Tuesday that between 10,000 and 40,000 civilians remain trapped on Mount Sinjar since being driven out of surrounding villages and the town of Sinjar two days earlier. But the mountain that had looked like a refuge is becoming a graveyard for their children.

Iraqi Yazidis stranded on isolated mountaintop begin to die of thirst
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From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 04:33 AM

Guardian 3 hours ago,

"Tens of thousands of members of one of Iraq's oldest minorities have been stranded on a mountain in the country's north-west, facing slaughter at the hands of jihadists surrounding them below if they flee, or death by dehydration if they stay.

UN groups say at least 40,000 members of the Yazidi sect, many of them women and children, have taken refuge in nine locations on Mount Sinjar, a craggy, mile-high ridge identified in local legend as the final resting place of Noah's ark.

At least 130,000 more people, many from the Yazidi stronghold of Sinjar, have fled to Dohuk, in the Kurdish north, or to Irbil, where regional authorities have been struggling since June to deal with one of the biggest and most rapid refugee movements in decades.

Sinjar itself has been all but emptied of its 300,000 residents since jihadists stormed the city late on Saturday, but an estimated 25,000 people remain. "We are being told to convert or to lose our heads," said Khuldoon Atyas, who has stayed behind to guard his family's crops. "There is no one coming to help."

Another man, who is hiding in the mountains and identified himself as Nafi'ee, said: "Food is low, ammunition is low, and so is water. We have one piece of bread to share between 10 people. We have to walk 2km to get water."

"At least 500 Yazidis, including 40 children, have been killed in the past week, local officials say. Many more have received direct threats, either from the advancing militants or members of nearby Sunni communities allied with them. "They were our neighbours and now they are our killers," said Atyas.

"It's not like this is a one-off incident," said the Unicef spokeswoman Juliette Touma. "We are almost back to square zero in terms of the preparedness and the supplies. Enormous numbers of people have been crossing the border since June.

"The stresses are enormous; dehydration, fatigue, people sometimes having to walk for days. The impact on kids is very physical, let alone the psychological impact."
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From: Teribus - PM
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:11 AM

"Doesn't seem very relevant to the present, though, as ISIS is not making its territorial gains through air power." - Richard Bridge

Sorry Richard I thought your concern was for those about to be butchered not exchange of real estate.

Relevance as I seem to have to spell out for you in the light of the question you originally asked is as follows:

In 1991 Saddam Hussein threatened and attempted to kill thousands of Iraqi Kurds in retribution in the immediate aftermath of his defeat Desert Storm - The UK from NATO bases inside Turkey mounted a land and air operation to prevent that.

Today ISIS forces threaten to kill 40,000 of Iraq's Kurdish Yezidi religious minority - You asked who could come to their aid - at least that is what I thought you were asking? Answer of course would be the Iraqi Armed Forces provided that waste of space Nouri Al-Maliki can get his act together.
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From: bobad - PM
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:23 AM

(deleted)

The poignant lament of an Iraqi named Karim, quoted in this short newyorker.com story, captures the helpless frustration of many minorities facing existential danger in areas controlled by ISIL, the terrorist group, while much of the world has been transfixed by the war between Israel and Hamas. While both Israelis and Palestinians have carelessly bandied about the word "genocide," it is a real threat for the communities in ISIL's crosshairs.

Genocide watch: the Iraqi communities most endangered by the rise of ISIL
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From: Teribus - PM
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 08:15 AM

" Iraq was decimating the Kurds through use of air power. The operation you describe sterilised that air power."

The Kurds were being attacked by both the Iraqi Air Force and by the Iraqi Army.

"ISIS is not decimating (or worse) the Yazidi through air power but through land power."

Ah so that's alright is it? They are not decimating those they have trapped they are intent on slaughtering every last one of them. Yet as others have said not one yelp of objection can be heard above the roar of "Save Gaza, save Gaza".

"So how do you think the Iraqi forces can resist that land power? The last rumble between Isis and them ended, did it not, with the Iraqi's abandoning their weapons and running away?"

The Iraqi Army and the Shia Militias will do it, might take time but they will do it. The last time? Well they were for the most part Police and Border Police Units with some Army units - I note the ISIS "drive" on Baghdad has halted? Changed their minds have they? Or has something else changed it for them?   

"Israel could be stopped by cutting off arms sales to it and cutting off the massive US subsidy."

Possibly could but we both know that that is not going to happen don't we?

"Isis? Last I heard the assets they seized made them richer than the rest of Iraq. OK, maybe I exaggerate, but how far off is it?   They are apparently not susceptible to financial pressure, only military."

And what good are those assets? Can they produce oil? Can they transport it to any loading terminal? Can they sell it? Rhetorical question Richard the answer to all is a big NO, so those assets are of no use to them whatsoever.

"Similarly apparently Boko Haram outguns the Nigerian army (and like the Viet Cong hides in dense forest)."

Early days yet for that bunch, but their time is coming, their métier is destruction - they have no future.
(deleted)
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From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 12:05 PM

(deleted)

The Islamic State has put Iraq's survival as a unified state in jeopardy.

The capture of one of the towns, Sinjar, home to many of Iraq's Yazidi minority sect in a weekend offensive could lead to a humanitarian crisis.

Yazidis, ethnic Kurds who follow an ancient religion derived from Zoroastrianism, are at high risk of being executed because the Islamic State militants view them as devil worshippers.

Yawar said 50,000 Yazidis now hiding on a mountain risked starving to death if they were not rescued within 24 hours.

"Urgent international action is needed to save them. Many of them, mainly the elderly, children and pregnant women, have (already) died," he said.

"We can't stop the Islamic State from attacking the people on the mountain because there is one paved road leading up to the mountain and it can be used by them. They (Islamic State fighters) are trying to get to that road."
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From: bobad - PM
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 09:15 PM

Good on the US but shame on Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan who have hundreds of aircraft and could easily have helped rescue the Christians, Shias and Yazidi Kurds, but chose not to.

President Obama approves humanitarian air drops in Northern Iraq
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JotSC

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 12:55 PM

Many have taken refuge on a mountain. The U. S. Air Force is providing supplied, and is bombing the (Islamic state) ISIS assault forces with both aircraft and drones.
Most have gone to Irbil (Arbil), also being protected by U. S. aircraft.
This was mentioned in the Caliphate thread, but that thread has been taken over by the usual crowd of S--- posters.

500,000 Yazidis in Iraq, 60,000 in Germany, 50,000 in Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 01:08 PM

Thanks for the additions. My post was made before they appeared.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 01:16 PM

John From The Sunset Coast: Well Done!
One of the problems with genocide is the perpetrators do not as a rule allow unbiased reporters in as witnesses.
This is a case of a relatively peaceful area being overrun by a well-armed militia of fanatics who have, allegedly, given the inhabitants a choice: Conversion or Death.
It appears as though a dire beginning is being ameliorated somewhat by American action.
Within the last two days, U S President Obama has seen this plight as an example of genocide and he has made the decision both to drop supplies to stranded Yazidis and use air power to knock down the militants (to an extent).
There is an interesting interview of President Obama by Thomas Friedman in today's New York Times:
""When you have a unique circumstance in which genocide is threatened, and a country is willing to have us in there, you have a strong international consensus that these people need to be protected and we have a capacity to do so, then we have an obligation to do so," said the president."

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: GUEST,#
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 07:46 PM

Sure ain't too many of the usuals who blame Israel for killing Arabs but find it necessary to be contrite when Arabs kill Arabs. Their silence speaks very loudly.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 08:44 PM

Silence doesn't always speak loudly, Guest #. I suspect that we are all holding our breaths right along with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 08:52 PM

"Silence doesn't always speak loudly, Guest #."

I agree with Guest# that it does in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 03:56 AM

And what makes you the judge of it, bobad?

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 06:34 AM

Latest BBC reports suggest IS massacring civilians in retaliation for US air strikes.......whither now?
Catch 22. Does President Obama suspend bombing, or will we see horrific slaughter for every bombing raid?

Humanity is totally fucked up.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: bobad
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 07:13 AM

"And what makes you the judge of it, bobad?"

Judge????   I think you're missing the point of both Guest#'s post and mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: bobad
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 07:28 AM

Ake, ISIS's intent is to kill the Yazidis trapped on Mt.Sinjar. According to CNN the US strikes are in support of Kurd forces attempting to rescue the Yazidis.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: bobad
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 11:07 AM

Where are the hordes protesting this atrocity?

BAGHDAD - Militants from ISIS have killed at least 500 members of Iraq's Yazidi ethnic minority during their offensive in the north, Iraq's human rights minister told Reuters on Sunday. Mohammed Shia al-Sudani said the Sunni militants had also buried alive some of their victims, including women and children. Some 300 women were kidnapped as slaves, he added. "We have striking evidence obtained from Yazidis fleeing Sinjar and some who escaped death, and also crime scene images that show indisputably that the gangs of the Islamic States have executed at least 500 Yazidis after seizing Sinjar," Sudani said in a telephone interview. NBC News could not immediately independently confirm his remarks.

The minister's comments could pile pressure on the United States - which has carried out air strikes on ISIS targets in response to the group's latest push through the north - to provide more extensive support. "In some of the images we have obtained there are lines of dead Yazidis who have been shot in the head while the Islamic State fighters cheer and wave their weapons over the corpses," said Sudani. "This is a vicious atrocity."

NBC News

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 11:50 AM

It appears that one element of the horror is being eased. The visual of thousands of people trapped on a mountain by people seeking to kill them was intolerable. Now, at least, there can be a next step.

"Barbahari, who is in charge of the Fishkhabur crossing with Syria, told AFP: "The Kurdish peshmerga forces have succeeded in making 30,000 Yazidis who fled Mount Sinjar, most of them women and children, cross into Syria and return to Kurdistan. Most of them crossed yesterday and today, this operation is ongoing and we really don't know how many are still up there on the mountain."

Iraqi MP Vian Dakhil, who is from the Yazidi minority, said 20,000 to 30,000 had managed to flee the mountain they ran to a week ago when militants overran the Sinjar region and were now in Iraqi Kurdistan. "The passage isn't 100% safe," she said. "There is still a risk."

Some Progress

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 11:58 AM

The question still stands regarding the US bombing.

What happens if every raid is answered by the massacre of civilians in retaliation.....this is the politics of terror folks.

It really starts to get complicated when others don't stick to the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 02:30 PM

If a military raid results in the massacre of civilians, ISIS is just looking for an excuse to kill. At this point it appears that they feel all civilians are expendable if they are not adhering to ISIS's strict interpretation of morality and religion. Those civilians are at high risk in any case. If the raids can reduce the risk by reducing the number of radicals, I say, go for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 11:22 AM

But suppose Isis surrounds itself with refugees.
Some here think it would then be a crime to stop them committing their atrocities.
Right Steve?
Right Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 11:42 AM

results in the massacre of civilians,

And then there are the U.S. drone strikes that do exactly that......

Or the Israeli bombardment of Gaza.......

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 11:48 AM

I have no truck with any religion, but one thing is for sure. These nasty, thuggish and money-grabbing people may claim to be acting in the name of Islam, but it isn't any form of Islam I've come across or read about. And I'm no friend of Islam.



And try to not be stupid for a change, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 09:46 PM

"Some here think it would then be a crime to stop them committing their atrocities."KoH

Do you really want to be dismissed as a troll? Put the stick down.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 03:08 AM

You must be joking Ebbie, Keith is no troll, he has spent an inordinate amount of time explaining his position to those who do not wish to hear.
You on the other hand jump in very occasionally make some sort of controversial remark, then disappear.

Exactly how do you define troll?

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 04:32 AM

Ebbie, Steve and others have argued forcibly that it is a crime for Israel to strike back at Hamas because they are surrounded by civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 04:59 AM

"it isn't any form of Islam I've come across"

.,,.

Then what precisely was it 'a form of' that knocked the Twin Towers down or blew up tubes & buses in London in 2007 or tried to cut that soldier's head off in the streets of our capital or attacked the Danish editor or killed the Japanese one or (cont p94)????

'Try not to be stupid for a change' right back 2U Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 08:57 AM

Apprise me of the bits of the Holy Book that sanction those things, Islamophobe. There are over a billion Muslims on this planet, almost all of them peace-loving people. If you define Islam by those atrocities (and atrocities they are), you are defining yourself as a bigot and an Islamophobe. Your choice.

Ebbie, Steve and others have argued forcibly that it is a crime for Israel to strike back at Hamas because they are surrounded by civilians.

The overwhelming feeling I get is that the IDF don't really care who they are "striking back at". As they kill mainly civilians, including children playing on the beach, young men watching the World Cup in a coffee bar, people in an old folks' home and families sheltering in school buildings run by the UN, one might conclude that they aren't very good at "striking back at Hamas", even in these days of smart warfare. One gets the sneaky feeling that it doesn't matter if they kill 500 or so children in a month because they will always be able to blame Hamas for using them as human shields. Something for which you haven't got a scrap of evidence. Look back at every recent conflict involving us versus Muslims. The Muslims were all using human shields. According to us, of course. It's the modern way of explaining away, er, "collateral damage", Keith, trotted out routinely, always without evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 10:52 AM

SORRY -- DON'T KNOW WHY THAT PRE-POSTED. SO TRY AGAIN....
-----------

"Apprise me of the bits of the Holy Book that sanction those things"
'..'.'

No good asking me -- I haven't read the Koran & Shuras, have I? So I rely on those that have to tell me what they say...

So ASK THEM! Every time they knock down a building full of people with planes, or cut a soldier to pieces in the street, or kill an editor, or (cont p94), THEY SAY THEY ARE DOING IT BECAUSE THEIR IMAM QUOTED A BIT OF ONE OF THE BOOKS TO THEM & TOLD THEM TO BECAUSE IT WAS THE WILL OF ALLAH. You know they do. Every time. The brave woman who confronted the guy holding the machete covered in the blood of Fusilier Rigby got a mouthful from him about how it was a war that the book said was the will of Allah. He never even denied saying it; just said it again. And again. And again. Pleaded not guilty at his trial by saying it, if you don't mind!

So, again, murdering-Muslim-lover; don't ask me: ASK THEM!

& all this 'there are billions of peace-loving...' rubbish. So what? There are billions of people in the world who commit no crimes. Does that mean that the ones few who do happen to be criminals can just be left to get on with it then?

Oh, what's the use....

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 11:02 AM

As they kill mainly civilians,

If that is really true, why are the dead mostly young men?
In previous incursions Hamas counted its dead fighters as civilian casualties.
It seems likely they are doing it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 11:15 AM

BBC.
11 August 2014 Last updated at 14:30
"Caution needed with Gaza casualty figures
By Anthony Reuben
Head of statistics, BBC News"

"An analysis by the New York Times looked at the names of 1,431 casualties and found that "the population most likely to be militants, men ages 20 to 29, is also the most overrepresented in the death toll. They are 9% of Gaza's 1.7 million residents, but 34% of those killed whose ages were provided."

"At the same time, women and children under 15, the least likely to be legitimate targets, were the most underrepresented, making up 71% of the population and 33% of the known-age casualties.""
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28688179

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Musket
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 11:53 AM

Fascinating how the usual fools try putting words into the mouths of Mudcat members who haven't even commented yet. Or take lack of comment as meaning something.

The world is getting on with trying to address this humanitarian disaster whilst the sanctimonious pricks here jeer anyone who doesn't share their general Islamophobia.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 11:58 AM

Just as anyone who doesn't share your Islamophilia is a "sanctimonious prick", eh, Mr Mouthie-Mather?

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:54 PM

"Islamophobia, a word created by fascists, and used by cowards, to manipulate morons."

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:08 PM

MGM, our mayor here in Calgary (a city of 1.2 million) is Muslim, much liked by all regardless of stripe.

There are many fine Muslims here, one is visiting as I write..

So label me a murdering Muslim-lover, my acephalic friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:24 PM

Not at all, Q. I have had many Muslim friends in my life. But that is not the point. I view Islam as a faith of misanthropic bent, inward-looking and truculent: purely from a pragmatic pov, that is; by their fruits ye shall know them, and I know of no others in the modern world whose adherents commit so many anti-humane acts on the explicit plea on their own part [like that murderer of Mr Rigby I ref'd above] that such procedures are enjoined on them by their faith in the teachings of their Prophet. That will not prevent many of its adherents being good and worthy people; mayors of communities, professors, whatever!: but I can't feel they have the best send-off for life in a broader community.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 03:11 PM

No good asking me -- I haven't read the Koran [sic] & Shuras, have I? So I rely on those that have to tell me what they say...

In other words, you speak from ignorance. Didn't we just know it. Well let me apprise you: you won't find the Qur'an advocating mass violence against non-Muslims.

"An analysis by the New York Times looked at the names of 1,431 casualties and found that "the population most likely to be militants, men ages 20 to 29, is also the most overrepresented in the death toll. They are 9% of Gaza's 1.7 million residents, but 34% of those killed whose ages were provided."

That being the case, Keith, why doesn't the IDF just round up all the blokes aged 20 to 29, line them up against a wall and gun them down? Just think of the advantages: no women and children killed, no homes or schools or hospitals bombed or bulldozed, peace at last...

Now tell us what proportion of the UK army or the US army or the IDF are blokes aged 20 to 29. Oops, sorry - terrorists aren't allowed "armies", are they, Keith? Twat. Oh, and by the way, 34% is just about one third. Tell us about the other two-thirds, Keith. Oh, and by the way again, Keith, there are far more than "1431 casualties". There are tens of thousands. I suppose asking you whether you mean dead people would be too much for you to bear. Even that's a damn sight more than 1431. You are a horrible little man, aren't you, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 04:47 PM

,you won't find the Qur'an advocating mass violence against non-Muslims.' ____

I certainly won't find it, because I won't look, you fool. But those of them that want to blow us up or cut us down will, won't they? They always have before. Or do you deny that every time we get another of their enormities, they claim they are doing it because their Prophet told them to.

So why don't you just stop being so perverse and stupid, and face up to the reality of the fact that there are those among them, the ones that you had better watch out for, who will find enough warrant there [or their imams will tell them it's there] to do the lot of us in if they can. What do you think IS and the Caliphate are, for crying out loud? Or where do you think they get their justificatory impetus from? Stop being such a bloody ostrich? It's unworthy of your intelligence.

And less of your bloody patronising sic, if you don't mind. Koran is a perfectly permissible traditional spelling and you know it!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 05:59 PM

Well it's a tad lazy is "Koran". A man of your ilk could easily look the thing up. No we will not all be blown up, etc. A billion Muslims want nothing to do with "Islamists" who feel like blowing us up. Yes there have been atrocities (and atrocities they are). But we over in the west are fine ones to talk, aren't we? A hundred thousand Iraqi kids dying in ten years of sanctions? A million Iraqi civilians killed as a result of warmonger Bush and warmonger Blair pulling the wool over the eyes of the world? We stand by whilst Israel commits war crime after war crime, slaughtering five hundred children and still stealing Palestinian land? The yanks supplying Israel with more bombs as they used up their supply in Gaza in the last month? Etbloodycetera? I hate those atrocities as much as you do. But at least I'm not blind as to what our side manages to do as well, unlike you. That's what makes you an Islamophobe. By the way, do calm down and stay ice-cool, dear. Like me.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 01:07 AM

Steve: I don't deny being an Islamophobe. Can't see it as any sort of pejorative. Actually, 2nd thoughts; yes, I do deny it. I don't hate them, as the -phobe suffix might imply. I'm just scared to death of them and anyone who isn't is a fool & an ostrich IMO. Have been into all this before 100x on this forum, & so won't spell it out here. I'll give you refs to previous more detailed posts if you want them; but I bet it'll be yet another case of 'cba'. And when you live, if you keep going long enuf, to see your granddaughter caned publicly 100 strokes on her bare bottom in Trafalgar Sq for showing too much ankle, hope you'll take some retrospective heed! It's what's happening in Saudi & N Nigeria & Yemen right now, you know.

There are billions of people who don't rob banks; so does that mean the ones who do can just get on with it?

I have looked it up, again, just now, in my Chambers. "Koran" is main entry, with a tailpiece saying "also Qoran, Quran and Qur'an", and if you look any of those up it says "see Koran". So stick that in yer ice·cold pipe, Mr Clever-Clogs. Er, I mean "dear".

Best regards as ever, me old Hen...

still ~'the'~ 2U if you like, despite change of designation

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 01:22 AM

"A hundred thousand Iraqi kids dying in ten years of sanctions? A million Iraqi civilians killed as a result of warmonger Bush and warmonger Blair pulling the wool over the eyes of the world?" - Steve [Qur'an] Shaw

PROVE IT

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Musket
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 03:08 AM

"Some of my best friends are Muslims etc"

Followed by

"I'm an Islamaphobe. I'm scared to death of them."

Nothing like living on the edge eh Michael?

This coming from someone who when I mentioned his newsagent or doctor or other upstanding member of his community may be Muslim, he said yes, but he may have a nephew.....

It's a rather thin veneer. It has large cracks in places.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 03:25 AM

I still don't see what point Mr Mouthie-Mather thinks he is making by constant iteration of my IMO perfectly valid point that, tho many Muslims are indubitably benign respectable worthy citizens, any of them might well have a relative who is less so — (anyone might -- my 1st cousin once removed Donald Murray did three years for fraudulent conversion in the 1940s, but what of it?). And in the case of the particular demographic under consideration here, this "less so" might well take the form of Islamist militancy. It seems to me that this is an incontrovertibly reasonable postulation. Why silly old Mr M-M keeps going on&on&on&on about it as proof of some sort of culpable hatred on my part of it's·not·quite·clear·whom, I am buggered if I can see.

Still --- it's his hobby and he seems to have become a bit addicted to it, so he might just as well carry on with it. Doesn't do me any harm so far as I am aware.

See you next outburst then, Mouthie-Old-Fruit.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 03:36 AM

And if you must quote me, get it right. I withdrew the admission of being a -phobe to replace it with the admission of being scared: I did not run them in parallel as you misquote. If you hope to carry any sort of conviction, get things right. Accuracy matters -- even to Mouthie ones...

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 03:57 AM

Keith, the objection so many have to the conduct of Israel is not so much their fight against Hamas but their killing of children and non-combatants. Even if Hamas take hostages to use as human shields (it seems more plausible that in a place as densely populated as Gaza it would be difficult for Hamas to put themselves somewhere there were not many children and civilians) you are supposed NOT to kill the hostages. Given that Israel has some of the most sophisticated and accurate weapons in the world it looks as if they are not bothering to try to achieve that end.

Now, back to the Yazidi. Fox is reporting problems (as I predicted in the Caliphate thread) problems with trying to solve the crisis with only air power. The Iraqi army is a broken reed. And Iraq doesn't want to give the Kurds much better arms - because when and if Isis goes away the Kurds will turn those arms on the Iraqi army as part of their demand for Kurdish independence (foolish as current events may seem to make that aspiration).

Ah, yes, the report -   http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/08/12/iraq-militants-changing-tactics-complicating-us-airstrike-mission/

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 04:59 AM

Shifting ground for the Islamic State over the past few days:

1: US air support to Iraqi Government Forces and more importantly to the Kurdish Peshmerga Militia

2: US supplies of arms and ammunition to both Iraqi Government Forces and to the Kurdish Peshmerga Militia

3: Deployment of Special Advisors to Kurdish areas - As they did in Afghanistan operating with Northern Alliance forces in the period October to December 2001 they will identify, nominate and "paint" the IS targets to be hit from the air. In Afghanistan the combination of local ground forces, special advisors and air power ran the Taliban and their Al-Qaeda "guests" out of the country in seventy-one days (The Taliban had previously been unsuccessfully trying to defeat the Northern Alliance for seven years).

4: It would appear that the Iraqi Government is starting to get its act together re Nouri Al-Maliki. That will take time but it will be done and then they can proceed against IS "fighters" and any Sunni Tribes inside Iraq who support them.

Good article by Tim Collins in the Telegraph today:

Telegraph Tim Collins Article

"The sectarian dictatorship of Nouri Al Maliki, the now ousted prime minister of Iraq, has alienated the Sunnis once more. He systematically erased Sunnis from public life. He then purged the army of its US-trained officers and, in a festival of corruption, made himself minister of defence and interior, and assumed many other offices that allowed him to distribute favours to his cronies.

When IS turned from attacking the Assad regime in Syria to helping the tribes resist Maliki's regime, they found it an easy task. While the Syrian army is a professional force, the Iraqi army – superbly equipped by the US but led by Maliki's friends – crumbled. As the officers ran, so the soldiers followed."

The Islamic State will fail in Iraq exactly as "Al-Qaeda-in-Iraq" failed - WHY? Because they have nothing to offer anyone - exactly as Hamas have nothing to offer anyone in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 05:11 AM

Richard Israel can not resist Hamas without endangering the civilians all around them.
Because Hamas commits the crime of not evacuating them from around their positions does not mean they must be allowed to continue their other crime of indiscriminate attacks on civilians.
The law was not intended as an aid to terrorism but to reduce suffering in war.

Steve, re the casualty figures.
They prove that Israel is not killing indiscriminately.
Children and females are under-represented, all males are over-represented, and young men very over-represented.

That anomaly requires explanation.
The most likely would be that Hamas is lying about the status of its casualties.
Have you another?

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 08:23 AM

"A hundred thousand Iraqi kids dying in ten years of sanctions? A million Iraqi civilians killed as a result of warmonger Bush and warmonger Blair pulling the wool over the eyes of the world?" - Steve [Qur'an] Shaw

PROVE IT


DISPROVE IT

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:07 AM

Simple [Qur'an]:

If 1 million have died then there must be 1 million bodies loafing about somewhere - True?

Someone would have to have seen them die, treated them as they were dying, buried them once they were dead - True? (Unless of course you subscribe to the Christmas theory that bodies are secretly removed by God knows who and disposed of in some unknown manner - as he fervently believes happened at Jenin)

Now as far as Iraq goes, their Health Ministry, their Interior Ministry and a whole raft of NGOs can only produce evidence of ~150,000 deaths - So where did Steve [Qur'an] Shaw's 1 million come from? The answer to that is:

ESTIMATES of numbers of Iraqi civilians who MAY HAVE DIED obtained from Batch Sampled Surveys undertaken in conditions that could only be described as being far from ideal.

Iraq Body Count does a rather good job in rubbishing your figures perhaps you should read it - although I doubt that you will - you and such as yourself do hate it when your inaccurate and dearly held myths get exploded.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:19 AM

Jaysus. First google entry and he stops looking. :-) OK, you find the littlest numbers, I'll find the biggest. Try wiki. Here's my bit:

Opinion Research Business (ORB) poll conducted August 12–19, 2007, estimated 1,033,000 violent deaths due to the Iraq War. The range given was 946,000 to 1,120,000 deaths. A nationally representative sample of approximately 2,000 Iraqi adults answered whether any members of their household (living under their roof) were killed due to the Iraq War. 22% of the respondents had lost one or more household members. ORB reported that "48% died from a gunshot wound, 20% from the impact of a car bomb, 9% from aerial bombardment, 6% as a result of an accident and 6% from another blast/ordnance.

If that's too much for you, try the Lancet survey (same page).

Trouble with "body counts" in wars, old chap, is that bodies get shoved in piles in ditches, in mass graves, rot in the heat, get lost or get missed. Or get blown to smithereens. Nice. But uncountable.

You say tomatyto, I say tomahto. Wottevah. But the point I made in my post stands.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 10:24 AM

FFS, Keith, where are Hamas going to evacuate other people to? Gaza is a densely populated prison camp, or hadn't you noticed?

And to return to the point of Isis and the Yazidi, what is "shock and awe" going to do with Isis working like guerilla insurgents? Napalm anything vaguely brown that moves? That worked REALLY well in Vietnam, didn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Musket
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 11:04 AM

If I were Michael, I'd hide under the bed in case a Muslim is nearby.

I'd advise a Bacofoil helmet as well. You can't be too sure.

Amazing what outrageous shit you think you can get away with once you reach an age and mental state that precludes normal people taking you seriously.

Considering there are more Muslims in this country than there are stupid old men with prejudices that have no place in decent society, the majority are safe from the minority.

Good job he said he would never read my posts again. Doesn't stop him from spouting off, all the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 11:45 AM

Oh, I'm reading them again, now'n'again. Source of infinite amusement: the incomparable Mr Mouthie-Mather, world-champion point-misser and leader of the all-nations nastibuggaz.

Wonder the spiteful little heap of useless protoplasm doesn't poison itself with its own acidulous scummy spit.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 11:50 AM

But isn't its forum-name, when one comes to consider it, a piece of remarkable self-knowledge? -- named for an obsolete inaccurate ineffectual liable-to-recoil maker of loud noise to little purpose. Real inspiration, it seems to have had just that once.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 12:14 PM

Richard, if you intend to fight from a civilian area, you must remove the civilians.
Many were evacuated but not by Hamas.
Gaza has an area of 139 square miles, mostly open ground where emergency accommodation could be provided.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 12:23 PM

Honey bee farm Khan Yunis, Gaza.
http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/young-palestinian-men-work-at-the-honey-bee-farm-of-news-photo/483549771

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 04:14 PM

The Israelis emptied a wide swatch of land in the search and destruction of tunnels; the civilians had no place to go that was safe.
The killing of Gaza civilians, destruction of hospitals and schools, and destruction of infrastructure (water and fuel lines, etc.) will cost at least $3 billion dollars to repair.

The Israeli bombing and shelling of Gaza ranks high among recent war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 04:23 PM

The Israeli bombing and shelling of Gaza ranks high among recent war crimes.
Says who?
Hamas commits war crimes when it attacks civilians with missiles and mortars.
Hamas commits war crimes when it operates from civilian areas without evacuating.
It is not a war crime to resist war criminals if you take precautions to minimise civilian casualties.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 05:11 PM

"the civilians had no place to go that was safe."

Bullshit! Take a look at Gaza with Google satellite - plenty of open land. Israel also notified the civilians of safe places to go where they would not target. The usual lying crap to demonize a country that is legally justified in defending itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 11:50 PM

Keith, trying to minimise casualties of non-combatants in Gaza is precisely what Israel does not do. And I am pretty sure that Isis doesn't do it either. Strange bedfellows, both sects believing that their imaginary friends give them rights to occupy wide swathes of land.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 02:14 AM

Ah [Qur'an] Jaysus - INDEED!!!!!

First google entry and you should have looked, read, analysed what was being said - If you had you would have discovered that your little Cut'n'paste supports precisely what I said:

Opinion Research Business (ORB) poll conducted August 12–19, 2007, ESTIMATED 1,033,000 violent deaths due to the Iraq War. The range given was 946,000 to 1,120,000 deaths. A nationally representative sample of approximately 2,000 Iraqi adults answered whether any members of their household (living under their roof) were killed due to the Iraq War.

An estimate []Qur'an] is exactly that - an estimate - it is not a hard and fast number - the number of people who died at any particular incident is - the number of people who die in hospital is an actual number not an estimate - the number of people who are buried is an actual number not an estimate.

A batch sample - you ask 2,000 people from a country with a population of of 30 million then transpose their answers to reflect it as though that was applicable right across the board - how f**kin' stupid can you get.

Iraq Body Count give two figures a low and a high, they then add what they call the Wikileaks factor which IIRC is around 13,000. The low figure comes from instances where people have died and that death can be verified and has been confirmed by two independent sources. The high is where people have died and that death can only be verified and confirmed by one independent source.

ORB and the John Hopkins Study (It was only reported in The Lancet - and you have the gall to criticise my research you Muppet) have both been comprehensively dismissed as being wildly inaccurate and both were timed for publication with the sole intent of influencing the elections in the USA - Ask George Soros he paid for and orchestrated the John Hopkins one - the study that refused to submit its data or its questions for critical peer review - the man actually in charge of the project was subsequently dismissed.

Now then were these 946,000 to 1,120,000 violent deaths all executions? Because for those numbers to be true they would have to be wouldn't they? Because if these 946,000 to 1,120,000 violent deaths were caused as a result of combat operations ("Collateral Damage is the popular phrase isn't it?) then what are the numbers of wounded and more importantly where were they treated - You see Stevie old son there are no records of them and as the ratio of wounded to killed in a straightforward combat scenario (Armed forces fighting one another) is normally 3:1 then for your average 1,033,000 dead you would have 3,099,000 wounded some of whom might just have needed an "elastoplast" and an asprin but most would not (particularly if bullets and bombs were the culprits). But we are talking about civilian casualties here aren't we - not straightforward combat casulaties - SO the ratios of wounded to killed in urban terrorist attacks is more in the order of 17:1 (According to Hamas - In Northern Ireland it was 11:1) So Stevie we are now looking at 1,033,000 dead and anything from 11,363,000 to 17,561,000 wounded - That Stevie represents 41.2% to 61.9% of the entire population of Iraq either killed or wounded - now rationally and logically I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT SOMEBODY MIGHT HAVE NOTICED THAT - Damned odd that they didn't eh? Which leads me to believe the figures given by Iraq's Ministry of Health, Ministry of the Interior, various NGOs and IBC.

So I will ask you again 946,000 to 1,120,000 deaths - PROVE IT

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 02:40 AM

Richard:

"FFS, Keith, where are Hamas going to evacuate other people to? Gaza is a densely populated prison camp, or hadn't you noticed?"

Your question denies the reality that there was never any attempt by Hamas to move people to a place of safety, and reports of them actually ordering people to remain in the full knowledge that their rocket launching sites would be targeted, and in spite of clear warnings by multiple methods being broadcast by the IDF.

But to humour your idiotic question - "Where could Hamas evacuate people to" - the concrete air raid shelters they had built for "their own people" perhaps? To the defined "open spaces" declared by the IDF? To "open spaces" defined through negotiation between Hamas/the UN/ICRC/IDF? But as both you and I know Richard, Hamas did not make any attempt to save civilian life in Gaza because that is not on their agenda is it? Saving civilian life in Gaza does not work in Hamas favour does it - Hamas actually wants civilians to die - so that useful idiots such as yourself, Christmas, Greg F, Musket and Steve [Qur'an] Shaw and many others on this forum can witter on about it from your collectively, highly selective and biased view point.

And by all means let us return to the point of Isis and the Yazidi:

"... what is "shock and awe" going to do with Isis working like guerilla insurgents?"

Ah but Richard ISIS was not "working" like guerrilla insurgents were they? They were acting like a victorious conquering power, right down to the parades of captured prisoners, public executions of the same and displays of war booty taken. And what a "teeny-weenie" little exposure to "shock and awe" has done is to stop them doing that hasn't it. Just this morning on the Beeb we've had reports of any emergency evacuation of refugees by airlift from the mountain top is now no longer necessary because those people are now able to make their own way off the mountain - WHY? Because these brave Jihadis who only seem to be brave when faced by defenceless civilians found out that roaming about in their "Technicals" blasting away at unarmed people sheltering in the hills resulted in a visit from a Hellfire missile, so they've run and they've dived for cover. Their choice now is to slink away them selves to find some sort of position they can defend or just simply run, because they know that fairly soon there will be people on the ground backed to the hilt by that air power coming to get them.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Musket
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 02:52 AM

If I get this right, you can terrorise Gaza, bombing schools, hospitals and residential areas but if the leader goes on the telly to say they are minimising civilian casualties, Keith reckons that isn't a war crime.

It'll be interesting when Netanyahu and his generals end up in The Hague then, they can have their solicitor instruct Keith. Judges are more convinced when advocates actually believe the shit they come out with.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 04:06 AM

Funny thing Musket - I can point you to examples of the IDF giving warnings to the civilian population of Gaza with a view to civilian casualties being minimised - but I cannot find one single example of Hamas doing the same. Perhaps you could? But I will not be holding my breath waiting for your answer, the question like most put to you will be ignored.

Hamas/Fatah/Islamic Jihad will fight to the very last drop of innocent civilian blood in Gaza and then they will slink away to relocate in the West Bank, Syria or in Lebanon to valiantly continue their doomed struggle. Their leadership will be slightly "miffed" about this as they would have lost one of their main income streams.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 04:16 AM

Clear warnings by the IDF "We will kill civilians if they stay there" - it says it all really.

But to stay on the Yazidi and IS - one swallow does not make a summer and as of a little while ago "shock and awe" is going to be just as useful as it was in Vietnam. IS are detestable maniacs but believing that they will run rather than hide in plain sight is unrealistic. Do you really believe that depopulating most of the middle east is acceptable or a long-term solution? How well did it work for the Romans?

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 04:26 AM

That is unfair Richard.
You accept that Israel has the right to defend itself against the rockets and tunnels.
That requires hitting their sites.
Because civilians have not been evacuated as they legally should have been they give warnings, even though it gives advantage to Hamas.

It is unreasonable to deny Israel the right to defend itself from the war criminals just because they are war criminals.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 05:00 AM

Yes clear warnings Richard - Did Hamas give any after they no doubt noted the likelihood that some of their rockets were landing inside Gaza? (Roughly 1,000 of them) - Naw thought not - Hamas gave no warnings at all, after all why should they, they are a terrorist organisation and terrorist organisations do not give a flying f**k for civilians or civilian casualties.

Shock and Awe:
"Shock and awe (technically known as rapid dominance) is a military doctrine based on the use of overwhelming power, dominant battlefield awareness, dominant maneuvers, and spectacular displays of force to paralyze the enemy's perception of the battlefield and destroy its will to fight. The doctrine was written by Harlan K. Ullman and James P. Wade in 1996 and is a product of the National Defense University of the United States."

Sorry Richard but the Vietnam War ended as far as the US was concerned in 1972 and as far as the Vietnamese were concerned in 1975. Tactical and Strategic Air power was deployed during the Vietnam War and both were successful - had the US been prepared to support the South with air power between 1972 and 1975 then the NVA would have succumbed to its effects just as their Viet Cong predecessors ( Failed Tet offensive in 1968 - after which the VC played very little part). First talks were the result of US bombing in the North and the mining of Haiphong.

Desert Storm - won by gaining air superiority, determined by air power
Bosnia & Kosovo - determined by air power
Sierra Leone - determined by air power
Afghanistan - determined by air power
Iraq - determined by air power
Libya - determined by air power
Mali - determined by air power
Syria - being determined by air power

In all of the above "shock and awe" was only ever applied once against Iraq in 1991

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Musket
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 09:34 AM

If a burglar breaks into a burglar's house to steal, it isn't a problem for the magistrate to ignore the status of the owner of the house.

When people point out the atrocities the Israeli terrorists carry out, pointing out the status of Hamas is totally irrelevant. Both sides say they are defending their people.

Two wrongs remain two wrongs. Israel is wrong and the reason for stating it is the sickening defending of their crimes going on around here.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 11:06 AM

Except, Musket, Israel is NOT committing any crimes, according to the Palestinians.


Only the Anti-Semites here have been accusing Israel of crimes.

Hamas on the other hand has committed war crimes, and even admitted it.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 11:08 AM

"The Palestinian Ambassador to the U.N. Human Rights Council, Ibrahim Khraishi admitted on a live television interview recently, in a moment of extreme candor, that Hamas are the ones perpetrating war crimes against Israel and not the other way round.

His comments, which were made on a Palestinian Authority TV interview in July and translated by MEMRI, are particularly interesting as the U.N., over the last few days, has put together a panel of so-called experts to compile a report on alleged Israeli war crimes against the Palestinians. The claims arise over Israel's actions during its recent defensive war against Hamas in Gaza, and its response to the launching of thousands of rockets and the digging of dozens of terror tunnels.

For fear of being taken to the International Criminal Court for prosecution, Khraishi advised his interviewer that it was best all round if the issue was not raised with the U.N. In his own words, "each and every" Palestinian missile fired on Israel constitutes "a crime against humanity," while he admitted that Israel "followed the legal procedures" when carrying out retaliatory attacks against Hamas terrorists, who purposely embed themselves within civilian populations.

Even a Hamas spokesman admitted on a TV interview recently that: "The Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. As for the missiles launched from our side, we never warn anyone about where these missiles are about to fall or about the operations we carry out."

U.N. Watch, an NGO body that monitors the U.N., reported that Ambassador Ibrahim Khraishi wasn't coy in his assertions of Palestinian war crimes. As he said himself:

"I am not a candidate in any Palestinian elections, so I don't need to win popularity among the Palestinians. The missiles that are now being launched against Israel, each and every missile constitutes a crime against humanity, whether it hits or misses, because it is directed at civilian targets."

Khraishi spelled out very clearly the fact that, in his opinion, the Israeli side followed proper war protocol, unlike the terrorist factions occupying Gaza:

"Please note that many of our people in Gaza appeared on TV and said that the Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. In such a case, if someone is killed, the law considers it a mistake rather than an intentional killing because [the Israelis] followed the legal procedures."

The new U.N. commission, which was just announced, is being headed by well-known anti-Israel genocide expert William Schabas. Undoubtedly, it will make a mockery of the real facts on the ground in the ongoing conflict between the Jewish State and the Palestinians, and will likely echo the previous discredited inquiry chaired by Richard Goldstone.

based on past performance, the U.N. is unlikely to bring Hamas or the Palestinian Authority to task for firing thousands of rockets indiscriminately on Israeli towns and villages. The Hamas policy, which it does not deny, is to purposely fire those rockets from schools and mosques in the hope that Israeli retaliations would cause maximum Palestinian civilian casualties and garner world support against Israel.

The fact that Israel is being taken to task by the U.N. for alleged war crimes in Gaza is absurd, and a disgrace to the United Nations whose whole purpose is supposed to be to champion human rights and not oppress them."

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 11:18 AM

Musket, if your view is contradicted by the Geneva conventions and the laws of armed conflict, who give a shit what an ignorant buffoon like you thinks?

You have had it explained to you in the simplest of terms, but it all went right over your silly little head.

But yes, you have managed to learn some naughty words.
Be content with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 03:16 PM

I haven't noticed any anti-semites here.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 03:31 PM

So, Steve, you keep your eyes shut and don't read the posts by the three stooges?


Or are you lying?


Which is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 06:18 PM

I've spent my whole life taking on and distancing myself from racists, including antisemites. I worked in the East End of London for thirteen years (including several years living in a council flat in Poplar), working in schools in one of the most ethnically-diverse areas of the country. I fought racism in my classroom, as a trade unionist and in the community. I was a member of the Anti-Nazi League and was a good friend of Blair Peach. My anti-racism antennae are extremely sensitive and I don't need ignorant and bigoted dolts like you to try "educating" me about the matter, thank you. I have yet to detect antisemitism here. Your saying stupid things, as in your last post, does not change that. Your best bet would be to calm down (dear) and give us some direct evidence of any antisemitic things you've come across anyone here saying. Perhaps you need to consult a decent dictionary first to find out what the term means (you seem pretty clueless about it). Let me start you off: criticism of the actions of the Israeli state is not antisemitism. Criticism of Jews for being Jews is antisemitism. I have no time for Hamas, but one thing is for sure. Contrary to what you think, Hamas has not murdered every single Palestinian child who has died in this conflict. That is just stupid, brainless, bigoted - and racist. Now go off and do your goblin dancing, you clown.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 06:40 PM

Well, Teribum, I must say I love all your extrapolations. I'm not wasting any more time bandying numbers with you because you'll always get stupid about it all, as you've demonstrated. You're very much like Keith in a lot of ways. A lot of people get killed in Gaza, he's embarrassed about it, but he dwells on just the ones he supposes (without evidence) were "soldiers" and prattles on vaguely (without evidence) how all the other two-thirds, who were definitely not soldiers, got killed because they were human shields. Well I suppose a photo on a highly-biased Israeli's blog might have been "evidence" of some sort. Do they have Photoshop in Israel? You have failed to address the substantive point I made in the post of mine that got you so animated (which, as we know, was you faking), in spite of my now mentioning it quietly for the third time. Do go back and take a look. On second thoughts, don't bother. We don't want your blood pressure up. Israel needs you. Don't forget to tell them about all those "terrorists" who should all be summarily killed without trial, etc. Gosh, where would western civilisation be without your sort?

Amazing, innit, how a dodgy photo and a hazy video clip represent Israel's sword of truth, whereas five hundred dead kids and thousands of demolished homes in Gaza merely prove that Hamas do nothing but lie. Oh, and murder. Murder everybody. Everyone dead was murdered by Hamas. Gosh.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 07:07 PM

Yazidi Kurdish girls being sold by ISIS jihadis for $10. Unbelievable, but Sharia permits taking non-Muslim female POWs as sex slaves.

Yazidis tormented by fears for women and girls kidnapped by Isis jihadis

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 07:16 PM

The US executes over a hundred people a year. Unbelievable.

We could try fighting injustice everywhere, minnow, instead of revelling in instances you think you've found that do nothing save feed your prejudices.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: pdq
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 08:10 PM

"The US executes over a hundred people a year. Unbelievable."


For the record, the United States has executed an average of 35 murderers per year since 1976 when a moritorium was lifted.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 09:06 PM

"The US executes over a hundred people a year. Unbelievable."

You are right Shaw, it IS unbelievable. Since 'over a hundred' is a nebulous quantity, I can only say that your post overstates the number by much MORE THAN DOUBLE in the last 4 years, and MORE THAN 3 TIMES on average since executions kicked back in in 1976 (average 36 executions per year in whole of USA). It took me about ten minutes to get the actual numbers by from several sources by google searching "USA executions", "Prisoners executed USA" or similar.

Have fun checking it out, pal.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 01:47 AM

Qur'an, so far you have made no point at all let alone a valid or substantive one.

As for your disdain for bandying numbers about, I see you are not particularly averse to doing the same yourself:

"The US executes over a hundred people a year. Unbelievable."

Your only problem with numbers Stevie old son is that I tend to get mine correct and you tend to get yours wrong, e,g:

The US does not execute over a hundred people a year - FACT

The number of Iraqis killed in the period March 2003 to December 2011 was nowhere even remotely close to your 1,003,000 it was just over one-tenth of that number - FACT.

If you are going to make definitive statements then you had best be fully prepared to back those statements up - so far you haven't.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 01:59 AM

If I were Michael, I'd hide under the bed in case a Muslim is nearby.
I'd advise a Bacofoil helmet as well. You can't be too sure.

========

Yes yes yes. Mock away. Have a ☯ taking the piss.

Then reflect that every great change that has happened over the last couple of centuries -- universal manhood suffrage; votes for women; abolition of cap-pun -- has come about quite suddenly after public agitation by a smallish pressure group [Chartists, Suffragettes], or even an individual [Sydney Silverman MP; Violet Van Der Elst, the American woman living in London who would make an impassioned speech outside every prison where a hanging was taking place], who have invariably been mocked & scorned as loonies & eccentrics: till all of a sudden - BOOM! - it has happened after all.

And now the same sort of contemptuous ooh-hahaha laughter for those of us who admit to being scared at what ISIS might just achieve here. ISIS are the ones with that sort of impetus now; and they are, true to form, getting exactly that sort of mockery from fools and ostriches like the poster of above paste & his mates. Who may yet, I say again, live to see their granddaughters publicly caned on their bare bottoms in Trafalgar Square for showing too much ankle [which is happening in Saudi & Yemen & N Nigeria right now, as even a fule kno]. Then they may laugh on the other side of their priggish self-satisfied faces -- as long as their heretical heads remain on their stupid shoulders.

So go on then: giggle away while the going's good. You'll learn...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 04:41 AM

Steve, he's embarrassed about it, but he dwells on just the ones he supposes (without evidence) were "soldiers" and prattles on vaguely (without evidence) how all the other two-thirds, who were definitely not soldiers

No!
I just say that the figures prove Hamas lies about how many civilians have died by counting its fighters as civilians.
That is a fair and reasonable comment.

The photos were to rubbish your claim that Hamas has no army.
They call themselves the al Qassam Brigades and here are some photos from a very non-Zionist site.
http://abuhudzaifahthalibi.wordpress.com/2014/07/
http://abuhudzaifahthalibi.wordpress.com/2012/11/21/tentara-cengeng-vs-tentara-allah/

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 09:13 AM

Oh bugger, both hands in the air on that one. :-( On one of my non-drinking days as well!

But still not very nice, which was my point really.

But not on Iraqi civilian deaths. You can shout FACT in capitals as much as you like but your FACTS were based on a bunch of outrageous statistical extrapolations. It's still there for anyone to read. You do seem to confuse fact with fancy, even more so than me with my duff execution figures. There are several interpretations and ways of collecting data. Rattling on about whose is better than whose is just digging holes. It was a lot of people and it shouldn't have happened and it was our fault and it helped to generate another era of terrorism for us to confront. First and foremost, it generated much misery and instability in Iraq, and we're reaping the whirlwind once again.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: GUEST,ollaimh
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 11:29 AM

there are many minorities being wiped out in Iraq and on the levant by militant islam. it's genocide.   however it doesn't excuse the western interference in the region--mainly American,which has always resulted in violent and unintended consequences, because those formulating policies are about as ignorant as keith or terribus on this list.

destabalizing Iraq, at tremendous cost, was evil and foolish and now the chickens are coming home to roost. saddam was bad, but if we have no way of crating anything but chaos we in the west should stay out.

destabalizing iran with the mozedheg coup was equally evil and foolish and made irian an enemy. they never learn.

and Israeli has commited major war crimes. no recognized world class ngo has supported the Israeli claim that hamas uses human shields. that's propaganda. hamas is evil but that's what you get when you take all the land and water. if Israeli had stopped it's settlements after oslo(almost 25 years ago) then they would have a chance at peace now. they have continued to steal land and water and now neither gaza nor the west bank are sustainable states. they depend on united nations handouts and money in aid. Israel created this situation and a few rockets are the least they should expect. they killed hundreds of civilians. gaza is a genocide in progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 11:50 AM

The crime of using human shields refers to Hamas operating from civilian areas so the can not be hit without hurting civilians.

That they do this is well known to everyone and anyone who has any knowledge at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 12:00 PM

This is one of the few times I agree completely with ollaimh.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 12:18 PM

AMEN!

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 03:01 PM

So you do not believe Hamas operates from civilian areas, and you do believe Gaza is experiencing genocide?

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 04:31 PM

You claim, groundlessly, that Hamas employs human shields. You have no evidence for this, and you have no evidence because it isn't true. The people of Gaza don't complain about it and there are one and three-quarter millions of them. You must think they're all mugs or something (I wouldn't put it past you as you are so racist). If you have real evidence for human shields in Gaza, let's be having it. You seem to think that saying things like "all the world knows..." seals your lies as facts. Well they don't. Evidence please, or just shut up about it. Or, in your case, do us all a favour and just shut up anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 04:49 PM

Sorry, misquoted you. You didn't say "all the world knows". You said "that they do this is well known to everyone and anyone who has any knowledge at all" (I knew a bloke down the pub who was so knowledgeable about 501 that he could do the maths in a split second, but who was as thick as pigshit when it came to anything else). Actually, what you said was worse. However, they're both prime examples of weasel words (do look it up on wiki), so well done.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 04:44 AM

I also agree that we should never have become involved in destabilising Iraq and Libya, but SRS, we have to deal with the consequences which have arisen from our foolish, or politically motivated actions.
The senseless slaughter of women and children by lunatic fundamentalist terrorists must be stopped, as the fear it engenders could spread the virus of fanaticism and provide a huge power base for radical Islam.


If they, the Islamists, ever get into a position to dictate their agenda, we are all truly fucked.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 04:52 AM

Steve, let me explain once again for you.
"Human shields" refers to Hamas operating from civilian areas, which they do.

We have two current threads about Israel.
This thread is about a desperate people experiencing actual genocide while its women and children are sold into slavery.

There are other issues in the world than Israel!

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 07:26 AM

Definition of Human Shields -
"Human shield is a military and political term describing the deliberate placement of non-combatants in or around combat targets to deter the enemy from attacking these targets. It may also refer to the use of persons to literally shield combatants during attacks, by forcing them to march in front of the combatants. A third meaning is when a combatant holds another person in front of them to shield them from projectiles (usually bullets), often by holding then in a headlock or nelson hold."

Nowhere does it refer to defenders against aggression taking positions among the people they are defending - that is an Israeli redefinition of the term.
If opposition fighters were st take positions in the open, as is being demanded, they would be wiped out immediately and those under attack would be left defenceless.
Israeli troops have mounted indiscriminate attacks on civilians for four weeks now, slaughtering opposition and non-combatants alike.
If the U.S. ever allows an enquiry to take place (it is doing its best to prevent one) I have no doubt that it will be found that war crimes have been committed to a massive degree.
Hopefully, this will include the Israeli 'death squads' which have gone about executing survivors.
Jim Carroll

KILLING SURVIVORS   

ISRAELI SOLDIER ARRESTED

EXECUTION

WAR CRIMES

EXPERIMENTAL WEAPONS

US ARMING WAR CRIMES

ETHNIC CLEANSING

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 07:33 AM

Wrong thread Jim.
This is about the extermination and enslavement of a people.
Everything is not about Israel, except inside your prejudiced mind.

You have two current Israel threads for your hate, and another hundred that you could refresh, or you could start some more, but this thread is about the genocide of an ancient and gentle people.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 01:23 PM

Another massacre of these dwindling people is reported today.
"At least eighty men" executed, and the women and children dragged off into slavery, victims of cruel, intolerant fanatics whose intention is to expand their caliphate ever wider.

Subject: RE: BS: Last of the Yazidis
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 02:02 PM

Some reports say 350 Yazidis massacred and a thousand women and children abducted.