BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation

Subject: BS: USA - a rogue terrorist organisation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 07:00 PM

http://www.theguardian.com/law/2012/dec/13/cia-tortured-sodomised-terror-suspect

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 07:23 PM

[sigh]

Extraordinary rendition and torture - relics of the George W. Bush administration. It will take a long time to live those down.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 08:48 PM

YOU, Mr. Bridge, could have noted that this was a 2012 report on something that occurred in 2003-2004.... and you could have made that post with a less sensational headline.

... ah, but that wouldn't satisfy your hobby of USA bashing at every opportunity... and inventing an opportunity when none was immediately obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 09:25 PM

I suppose it's possible, but is the Guardian a reliable source for anything other than girly photos? I guess the girly photos are more the province of the Daily Mail, huh?

Maybe the allegations are correct, but it does seem like there's some context missing.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 09:32 PM

Yes, Joe, the Guardian isa reliable source - its a real newspaper as compared to the crap media outlets masquerading as news that infest the U.S.of A.

So Bill- because it happened a while ago it absolves the U.S. from any responsibility??? If the "Best Country In The World"[sic] fucks up, are we supposed to ignore it or be classified as "USA Bashers"? Gimmie a break-

SRS- I don't know if we'll EVER live down the legacy of Dumbya, Cheney & Wolfowitz.

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 10:12 PM

Nothing 'absolves' anyone of anything! That is not what I was talking about. I was referring to the sensational, misleading title!

I don't use phrases like "Best Country In The World", and I am more aware than most how many problems a very large, complex country has. But when people focus on nothing BUT the negative and somehow miss ... or ignore... the stories of good people trying very hard to solve and mitigate those problems!

".. compared to the crap media outlets ..." Then read the good ones, for cripes sakes!
I know how to locate, compare & evaluate different sources.... it ain't that hard.

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 10:17 PM

Go HERE look in the right hand column for a dozen good sources.. If that doesn't seem like enough, follow the links further down to USA & world newspapers... then click on a few dozen and compare!

Want more suggestions? Just ask......

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 10:40 PM

But Bill, knowing the facts about something or someone you want to trash might pull the rug out from under you!

Mustn't do that. Spoils the fun!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 11:17 PM

It was modified from the original heading that didn't name the CIA, just said the USA did this. It looked like another Songwronger thread to start another cycle of fighting.

It is too easy to miss the date of original publication on news stories, just as it is difficult to sometimes pick the satire from the real - too many bizarre things keep happening so many stupid things that comes along seems credible.

Richard, if you're looking for a good target for US nonsense at the moment, use the keywords "TeaParty" "GOP" "Koch Brothers" "George W. Bush" "Dick Cheney," and for pseudo-journalism, "Breitbart" is a good one as a source of some of the most evil stuff. Everything seems to be the fault of Obama, according to some crackpots, even though it happened way before he came into office. And other things just have a life of their own, like "Bengazi," which is got out of hand because of a reporting cock up by an American news organization (CBS) reporting bad information (from unreliable sources) about the causes of a tragic event.

Please tell us more about how the politicians in the UK are dismantling the social safety net and the NHS. We'll feel like we aren't the only ones living in a World Turned Upside Down (as song my father used to sing, along with parodies).

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: olddude
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 11:50 PM

The cia has had its sins however so has ever other like agency in ever other country
Without it and like organizations those who would do us harm would succeed. There are also good people who work there and retired. Those guys put there neck out for others and not even there families know what sacrifice they did to keep everyone safe

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 01:47 AM

Don't imagine that Obama is any different. In fact, in terms of agenda Obama is George On steroids. It's not him- but. he kept all those neo-cons on board. I blame Biden. He steered him wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: olddude
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 01:48 AM

Talk about ball's they work in pair's or alone in the most dangerous regions of the world. There is not a hundred guys with tanks and weapons protecting them. When they get caught no one does anything. When they die they get a star on the wall with no name and their families get told it was a car accident. When they get a medal for valor it is shown to them and then taken away with no record anywhere. And they are paid crap. A thankless job but thousands owe there life to them and don't know it

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 02:26 AM

It's kind of short-sited to blame Biden, or even Bush and Wolfowitz--We've been preaching self-determination and democracy while overthrowing governments we don't like since the 19th Century. But if we don't do it, who will?;-)

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 03:27 AM

There's no doubt that the CIA has engaged in torture and other illegal and unethical activities throughout its history. The U.S. Senate is conducting an investigation (click) of the CIA's torture practices right now, and the CIA is doing its best to thwart that investigation.

The fact that the investigation is going on, however, does a fairly good job of refuting Richard's characterization of the US as "a rogue terrorist organisation."

Every nation, every organization, every church, every family, every Website (even Mudcat) has problems, and that makes it easy for cheap-shot experts to issue blanket condemnations of just about anyone or anything.

But that's what they are - cheap shots.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 09:27 AM

The USA denies responsibility for the CIA? Wow, that is REALLY alarming irresponsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: GUEST,Norman Simpleton
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 09:43 AM

I've seen "Red" and "Red 2".

Don't tell me they are not true expose docu-dramas bringing to public light
the corrupt machinations of the CIA, KGB, and MI6.

Or are you going to tell me Helen Mirren and Bruce Willis are outright liars !!!???

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 10:55 AM

What the CIA was doing under Bush II was hardly Rogue, since the gubmint sent'm to do exactly that.

Worse, I think, that they weren't rogue, than if they had been.

Hee hee, actors don't lie, they act! That's why it's called "acting" and not "living" or "being" - but funny!

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: GUEST,#
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 11:06 AM

"Or are you going to tell me Helen Mirren and Bruce Willis are outright liars !!!???"

Perish the thought, heaven forfend and no way Batman!

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 12:06 PM

Well, Mrrzzy, that government policy makes the USA a rogue terrorist organisation - as I first said.

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 12:10 PM

the CIA was founded by the same guys who ran the OSS - our answer to espionage during WWII to fight Hitler & Mussolini. It was war and anything went...

Unfortunately, the end of WWII led us into the Cold War with Stalin and later communist regimes... and this supported the "need" to continue under a "new" title. It was "the end justifies the means" mentality... and still is. Not condoning... just providing historical background. And like any other organization... it will continue until the people have the will to bring it to an end.

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 12:21 PM

"The USA denies responsibility for the CIA?"

Sounds like a question a prosecutor would ask a witness, followed by "Please answer yes or no!"

Look... in any police or security agency, the problem is to recruit and hire officers/agents/directors...etc. who are competent to do the job, but who are willing to follow the (sometimes ambiguous) rules and submit to control & review from above.
    The very system that gives them freedom to search, detain, question and imprison possible criminals also tempts some of them to stretch the rules and apply their own standards to the situation. In fact, because they spend enormous amounts of time dealing with acknowledged 'dangerous elements' can alter and distort their motives for being in the profession.... and let's face it... some join these organizations, from basic police to the most secret govt. agencies, BECAUSE they have a personal agenda.

   So, the question about whether the USA "denies responsibility" is an equivocation based on de facto using two concepts of "responsibility" in the same question. 1)Did we hire & train those guys and send them out to do a job? and 2)can we efficiently monitor & control the details of what they do!?
In the simple case of a policeman, we currently have the situation in Missouri, where it looks like a seemingly trusted and average policeman went way over the line and executed a young man in a highly dubious manner. Who is "responsible"? Maybe that officer will be punished for flawed behavior... maybe not. Now, suppose they fire the police chief and everyone who trained him.... is the city/state still "responsible" for what he did? The real answer is yes AND not. The state may have to pay damages, but the new police chief and the governor of the state are not "responsible" for the guy's shooting.
   In the case of the CIA and the US congress, it is many times more complex, partly due to the importance of the issues, partly due to the overlapping "responsibilities" of Congress, the president, the director of the CIA,and the various levels of agents who carry out actions. The need for security & secrecy in certain areas means that it is often the case that those who are ultimately "in charge" may have little of no idea what is happening at the agent level until things have gotten out of hand.
And yet... you want to make sweeping statements about 'the USA denying responsibility!' for something that happened 10 years ago, with a different set of managers.
What they are "responsible" for is changing the system and trying VERY hard to root out the problem agents and to provide some sort of oversight & openness in an agency which, by its very nature, is required to be secretive & closed to most scrutiny. (Now.. throw in the NSA and the FBI and a few others, and write, in your copious spare time, using *the wonderful, intelligent, help of the dedicated members of Congressional committees*, *choke*... a few laws & rules designed to avoid embarrassing headlines in the future. Do this while the media & amateur pundits write scathing headlines about "denying responsibility"

Oh, it IS easy to point at problems... and almost as easy to just paint an entire country as failed and flawed because of the errors of a few.

Lots of work, hmmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 02:54 PM

Well, Mrrzy, that government policy makes the USA a rogue terrorist organisation - as I first said.

No, rogue means NOT government-sanctioned. If they had gone off on their own, yes, rogue. But since they were following government orders, not rogue. And I think that is worse. As I first said.

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: olddude
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 03:44 PM

I think a lot of people confuse Cia with black Ops those guys are contractors and may not play by the rules but the vast majority do. There is far less control on them

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 04:13 PM

The CIA raised hackles around the world?

Sounds like they were doing their job!

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: Musket
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 03:34 AM

I suppose Hollywood et al have something to answer for. Not only CIA but via James Bond and others, our version of Dept of Paranoia too.

The good guys rip up the rule book and get results (God bless America.). Life can then get on with imitating art. When they go beyond protecting a geographical entity and start exporting a flawed political philosophy though, Bridge begins to have a point. Our alleged complicity in extraordinary rendition will eventually put senior politicians in gaol. Whereas in The USA, the end is portrayed as justifying the means.

Even Obama sadly started recognising that.

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: GUEST,Bloke who watches too much telly
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 09:50 AM

Interestingly, the rogue CIA boss gone murderously mad and bad, corrupted by South American drug cartel money,
is a staple convention, even an overused cliche, of many a current day Hollywood action thriller.

Saw another one last "2 Guns"

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 11:42 AM

dirty tricks seemed so normal & necessary back in the day, when the Cold War really did scare the crap out of folks... The television show Mission:Impossible offered hope that we could "weed out the bad guys"... only to later find that Pogo had it right. We have met the enemy and they is us.

As for the OSS, England had their own version that worked along with the OSS. Can't recall their title. oldtimers & too lazy to google.. lol

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: Musket
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 12:19 PM

You don't need to google OSS. I can tell you what it is;

It's a horse in a field just outside Barnsley.

Subject: RE: BS: USA - CIA a rogue terrorist organisation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 12:26 PM

SOE- British Special Operations executive. Dissolved after WW2, but MI6 carries on surveillance.