BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 03:40 PM

The people shouting loudest about burning things down if racism continues, at the rally I attended, were white... methinks I am methinking too much.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 02:24 PM

Exactly.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 02:13 PM

I've never met a real person who's been afraid of a race war... seriously. In the Ferguson situation, it seems to me that the people who most give the impression of fearing a "race war" are those who would like to see one happen, so they have an excuse to shoot people in designated target races. Charlie Manson bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 02:02 PM

A teeny-weeny minuscule "segment" is "continually in fear of a race war."

And only a minuscule segment thinks about it at all. That should be made clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Sean Belt
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 01:30 PM

meself, Thanks for the clarification. Glad to hear that I was reading in something that wasn't there.

Ed T., A certain segment of the U.S. population is continually in fear of a race war breaking out. But it is a useful fiction that the neo-cons and Fox-news-commentator crowd can use to keep people stirred up, afraid and voting against their own economic and social interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 05:34 PM

Kind of - all them "people of color" should go back where they came from, is how I understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 05:30 PM

USA Mudcat folks, help required:
Is this "so called" USA race war somehow one with the Mexican people-related to the alleged missing children, annon. guest (he /she) refers to in the last post?

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: meself
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 05:13 PM

"to yet again start a race war" .... Huh? Did I miss something? I didn't see anything about a 'race war' on the news .... And "yet again"? By golly, how many race wars has this Obama fella started - and how come I never heard about any of them?

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 05:04 PM

Thanks for your "first hand", eye-witness account of all that transpired, Guest.
You more than likely "enlightened" Mudcatters of these, and other, USA events with that last post.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 10:40 PM

*Sigh* I went to an Anti Police Racism / Solidarity with Ferguson thing today, and got in all (mild) kinds of trouble for not wanting to accuse all cops, individually, of being racist... I was hoping for peaceful demonstration and while it was non-violent, there was a lot of threatening to burn things down if racism were to occur and other non-peaceful rhetoric, which I didn't want to act as if I supported.

I failed in attempting to convey that assuming all people wearing blue should be treated like the racist pigs you think they are is not an appropriate response to complaints about assuming all people with unpink skin should be treated like the criminal scum they think you are.

Bigotry is not the answer to racism, and violent bigotry is not the answer to racist violence. But I am told, if you aren't with us you're against us...

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: LadyJean
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 10:37 PM

I live in a Pittsburgh suburb that is not that differnt from Fergusson. The same things could happen here, easily. If you will go to Daily Kos, you can find a list of links to go to if you'd actually like to do something for people in Fergusson.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: meself
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 03:13 PM

You were right the first time - you were reading something that wasn't there. I WAS afraid that the quotation marks would be taken as sarcasm, but didn't have time to linger over the matter ....

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Sean Belt
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 01:36 PM

meself, Maybe I'm reading something into your comments that isn't there, but you seem to have a problem with my use of "handled" in regards to the way that the Ferguson and St. Louis City police approached the shootings of black men in recent days. I can't imagine what that problem would be. I merely meant "handled" as a way of saying "the approach taken". Would that have suited you better?

I'm sure that you're on the right track that the difference in how information has been released or not (just today the Ferguson police released an almost completely redacted incident report on the shooting of Michael Brown to the ACLU - ugh. Do they never learn?) has a lot to do with the apparent justification of the police actions. However, I'd say that one of the things we need to be working towards in this country is more open and transparent (and honest) dealings with the police. Maybe citizen review boards would be a step in the right direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: meself
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 06:09 PM

Of course, the decision to release details of a police killing is no doubt easier when the police actions seem to be justified. In other words, the problem in Ferguson may not only have been "the way it was handled", but that the initial incident (the killing) was outrageous in and of itself. Which may have been why it was "handled" so poorly ....

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Sean Belt
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 03:41 PM

The second shooting you are talking about happened in the City of St. Louis. Here, that 2.6 miles from Ferguson can mean a huge difference. Fortunately, the aftermath of that shooting was handled much better than the one in Ferguson. This time, the City Chief of Police and the Mayor of St. Louis both got out into the area where the shooting happened and were open and honest with the neighborhood about what happened. They have continued to be open and honest, releasing the audio of 911 emergency calls, video from surveilance cameras and cell phones within 24 hours of the incident. This went a long way toward keeping the neighborhood response small, peaceful and reasonable. As opposed to Ferguson where the police of that municipality did everything they could to surpress information and repress the resultant actions of the community.

It is, of course, a tragedy that a mentally ill man was killed. But having seen the video and heard the tapes, I can understand why the police did so.

Even so, it points out how much important work we have to do as a society to address mental health issues, inequality of the poor and disenfranchised, institutionalized racism and the lack of education and jobs in out region.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:46 PM

They should have hit him with the pepper spray. Someone who takes a knife to a gunfight is obviously looking for a quick end.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:14 PM

The article also says where this happened was 2.6 miles away from Ferguson, so it wasn't THAT far away. I'll tell you that if a guy's acting strangely and running at me with a knife, and I have a gun, I'd think about shooting him when he got a couple feet away from me, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:08 PM

The guy with the knife was in St Louis, and not involved in the demonstration, but in trying to steal a couple of energy drinks from a convenience store. I've heard that shooting described as "suicide by cop". From Newsmax:

According to local news reports, the 23-year-old suspect entered the store and stole two energy drinks, left the store, and returned to take a pastry.

The store owner followed the man from the store and police were called.

KMOV.com quotes police as saying that whens officers arrived, the man was acting erratically, yelling at officers, "Shoot me now, kill me now."

Fox2now.com reports that the man was warned repeatedly by the two officers on the scene to drop his knife, but he refused, instead charging at the officers. Both officers then shot the man, and he was pronounced dead on the scene.

Police Chief Sam Dotson told Fox 2 that the man was two or three feet from the officers in an attack posture when he was shot. The officers were not injured.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 09:07 PM

oops that was me

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 09:02 PM

The one who was shot by police was brandishing a knife, which counts as an OK reason to shoot you with most Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 08:57 PM

Two people have been shot during demonstrations - neither one by police.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: olddude
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 08:50 PM

Lots of eyes were on those firing shots into buildings also

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: olddude
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 08:48 PM

Ed I completely agree the vast majority are good people who are exercising their right to free speech. God bless them but work with the authorities to stop the looting and violence against your neighbors who live there and own business. Lots of eyes were on the guys stealing the complete inventory of the Tire guy

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 04:43 PM

Could it be that you are joking guest? Or, playing the devils advocate?

Or, another possibility could be you are using the annomous feature (no investment in a posting reputation, nothing to lose) to make some weird and IMO, somewhat nonsensical statements.

If you are confident in your statements, you could reinforce it, and register under a real posting game-nit one if the many annon. guests , to participate in the discussion in a genuine, and up front manner. If not, I suspect few will take your comments very seriously, making your viewpoints somewhat less important.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 12:47 PM

I was born in St. Louis, actually, but have no memories of it as I was still quite small when we moved to Abidjan.

There is an article in the WashPo by a cop, I am not doing the blicky because the name of the article says it all,
http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/08/19/im-a-cop-if-you-dont-want-to-get-hurt-dont-challenge-me/

Oh ok blicky.

There are claims that sound an awful lot like if you insult me I get to shoot you, which should be absurd. This is America, we can insult you all we want, you can't shoot us for it!

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 12:41 PM

Thanks for that close to the action summary Sean.

What concerns me most is the lack of leadership-that fuels distrust. Situations like this remind me of a small fire that, if not controlled early, turns into a difficult to control, and unpredictible wild fire.

There was a time, early, to show leadership to instill citizen trust. Unfortunately, that time has past, and, to make matters worse, there seems to be little coordinated leadership to even try and bring the issue back under control.

This citizen trust building leadership does not come from folks on the street with badges, shields, vests, helmets, smoke bombs and ample firepower.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Rumncoke
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 12:25 PM

There was a report just now on BBC Radio 4 as I was making a cup of coffee - one media on the spot British woman presenter was standing reporting on a confrontation with protestors, the police line broke, and then officers were called to regroup, several officers would not obey the repeated shouted orders to fall back, came closer to the media people and one, dressed in a black uniform (she thought SWAT team member) was sweeping his assault rifle up and down the line of reporters in 'a very menacing manner'.

What are they on?

Someone should take it away from them in case they start shooting at random right in front of the cameras - some units transmit live, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: olddude
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:20 AM

Sean
.
Amen for sure

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Sean Belt
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:09 AM

As one how lives in St. Louis only a few miles from the suburb of Ferguson, it's interesting to hear what the posters here have to say. All I can really tell you is that it's a big mess. There are and have been for many years issues with racism in St. Louis. We like to pretend that we're not a southern city, but our attitudes are very southern. Additionally, we have a failing and underfunded educational system, high drop-out rates, few available jobs, and generations of poor whites and blacks who rely on the welfare safety net because they don't have role models withing their families to show them how to get up and go to work every morning. This all leads to anger, resentment, and a feeling of hopelessness in the population of the poorer, inner-ring suburbs like Ferguson.

On top of all of this, the Ferguson police, St. Louis County (of which St. Louis City is not a part) government and our Governor Jay Nixon have made a completely botched almost every aspect of handling the shooting incident and the subsequent protests and outbreaks of violence.

Unfortunately, there does not seem to be any leadership emerging from the protestors to organize their actions or to help to quell the violent minority who seem hell-bent on causing trouble and getting more people killed.

Personally, my heart is broken over what is going on in my city. I pray that this will act as a catalyst for action and that we will emerge better as a region; that no more property or lives will be lost to the nightly violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 10:41 AM

Ed, if you meant my sleepless, partially-identified post from a tablet sans cookie, I'm a cowGIRL. ;~)

======

Here are some adaptable songs, ye protest-history folkies who remember converting Gospel songs to Movement songs:

Sing Justice and Peace for Ferguson

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 10:20 AM

Why were there not fully militarized police at the Bundy Ranch stand-off?

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 08:58 AM

Oh, c'mon Al - surely the T-potty drains bust.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 07:54 AM

its great to have someone from Republican think tank aboard....

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 07:33 AM

There is agreement that most of the looters are from outside the community: gang members, "revolutionaries," etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: GUEST,wys,
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 03:38 AM

As Keith Boykin said, "Until white people finally acknowledge the persistence and the depth of their own conscious and subconscious racial biases and assumptions, unarmed black people will continue to die from their mistakes."

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 03:19 AM

The second shooting looks righteous to me. A nutter with a knife is dangerous enough to take no chances with.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 03:01 AM

""But there is no reason for looting your neighborhood""

There have been reliable reports that some of the troublemakers are from outside tge area. Regardless, it is folly to link most of those who peacefully protest with the opportunistic crimes of a few. These good folks protest not only to ensure that proper and fair justice is done with the shooting, but, that the conditions underlying the causes of the shootings are also dealt with in a meaningful manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: olddude
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 11:28 PM

I wasn't there I won't coment but what does that nice black couple who owned the food store have to do with it when looters tore it apart and stole goods. Or the Tire guy thathad his store looted. Or the 100 rounds fired into buildings not by the police. Why what do they have to do with it and how can anyone justify it
I do think the justice system will sort out the shooting and take whatever action called for. But there is no reason for looting your neighborhood

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 10:43 PM

I remember the Syrians offering to send observers when we were arguing over the first Bush II election...

I hate it when we are the bad example. We could be the good example.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 07:07 PM

Seems like Egypt has taken notice of the unrest in Ferguson.


Egypt

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 06:59 PM

You mean like they say in movies?

And TV?

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 06:11 PM

Right, the convenience store thing is as irrelevant as Ghostbusters, I heard John Oliver say. As in, what does it matter if we killed him for no reason, he was a punk anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 06:05 PM

I am suspicious as the convenience store incident seems more like a "red herring" likely released to take attention away from the details of the shooting and possibly cloud over the related issues. And, it seemed to have worked with a few, most likely those who have already made up their minds about events associated with the shooting.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 05:53 PM

Sorry, same clothes, same cap. Same height and build too. And near the scene of the shooting. And his attorneys haven't denied it was him. Nor has his family.

If a man is stopped for jaywalking but knows he's just committed a robbery, he might well react combatively.

And am I correct in thinking that nobody is likely to go to a convenience store to steal a bunch of cigars and shove and threaten the clerk? My pure speculation is that some kind of argument occurred and quickly escalated.I could specvulate further, but it would be senseless.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 05:10 PM

convenience store incident unrelated to shooting-CNN 

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 04:49 PM

""I am unclear whether the officers involved in the shooting actually knew of the events at the convenience shop. ""

Police indicated after the video was released (not sure of the intended purpose in doing that) that the shooter was not aware of the video store incident at the time of the shooting.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 04:21 PM

It is clear: they did not know of the theft. Nor is it certain he did it (different clothes).
And now they've just shot another knife holdup artist dead. Looks like a showdown move worthy of Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 03:11 PM

It is hard to see shooting Brown to death as justified. Maybe (just maybe) disabling him was necessary. It does look a bit over the top to shoot him for jaywalking. That was the first issue - should he have been in the middle of the road?

I am unclear whether the officers involved in the shooting actually knew of the events at the convenience shop.   

The videos at the convenience shop are argued to how that Brown paid for all his cigars. That grossly overeggs the pudding. He approached the counter and left a packet of something (probably cigars) there. It looks as if he collected money contributions from his companions. A hand from behind the counter is seen to take some money. We know not for what. Then Brown picks things off the floor. Why would cigars he had paid for be on the floor? Switching to the second video, he is near the door. Someone approaches him - it is not clear who - and Brown thuggishly pushes them aside. At that time it is possible to see a number of things in his hand. They might have been cigars he had paid for, they might have been cigars he had not paid for. But his brutish behaviour is clearly to be seen.

I therefore have less sympathy for him.

On the other hand, I am clear that the USA is a racist place, that he would probably not have been hassled for jaywalking if he were white, and that he would probably not have been shot had he been white. If the police had had no guns, he would definitely not have been shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 02:59 PM

""None of which has any legal bearing on who did what or why.""

Maybe yes, maybe no in regards to the circumstances of tge shooting. But, I suspect ig relates in some way the protests, which seem to be based on a lack of trust in the local government and possibly the local police.

It seems odd that there would be more trust placed in a Highway Patrol officer (who is black) , by the protesters, and that he would have to be brought in by the city to deal with the protest situation at all. Most cities with a significant minority group population has officers who have the skills to reach out to the community. Ferguson has not seemed to have considered in giverning its minority group,( that is the majority in the population, but does not seem to be so in the government).

Subject: RE: BS: Ferguson, Missouri / Big Mike Brown
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 02:35 PM

it must be a tough call being a cop in a country bristling with guns. split second decisions.....its a wonder those decisions don't go wrong every day.

finding fault with public servants who have been placed in a shit situation because they have had the balls to step up to a dilemma that none of us would envy, is all too common. we saw it all the time in the bad years in NI. And you can read the petulant attitude to police officers who were in an operation against dangerous professional criminals in this thread.

you don't want officers to empty a magazine - arm them with muzzle loaders - that way they wouldn't have time.