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acoustic versus electric !!!???
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Subject: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 05 Sep 14 - 10:43 AM I posted this 'elsewhere' today, then thought it might be be about right time again to sound out opinions..........??? "Ok.. now that we've finally defined "Folk".................. [yes .. that's right.. sarcasm...] Can we now have a go at analysing why a new generation of young kids are still being brought up with the smug propaganda that Acoustic is morally superior to Electric...???" No sitting on the fence mates.. go for it full tooth and claw... |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: MGM·Lion Date: 05 Sep 14 - 10:55 AM Of course that one is morally superior to the other one: just as next Tuesday morning is morally superior to a jar of marmalade, or Arsenal v Tottenham to the Milky Way, or shoes and ships and sealing-wax to cabbages and kings. ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Leadfingers Date: 05 Sep 14 - 11:09 AM Acoustic = Difficult to deafen an audience Electric = FAR too easy to deafen an audience |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,bonzo3legs on holiday Date: 05 Sep 14 - 11:23 AM You could hardly have Home Service playing acoustic!!! |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Steve Gardham Date: 05 Sep 14 - 11:34 AM Acoustic, you don't need to hike a load of heavy electric gismos along, you don't need an electricity supply, audience can usually hear the lyrics. I wasn't aware they were in competition with each other anyway. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 05 Sep 14 - 11:58 AM I hear Dylan was booed and called judas when he first appeared with elec guitar and band. I guess they thought it cannot be folk if its electric. me... I think, horses for courses.. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 05 Sep 14 - 12:12 PM Style more than anything. Even with an electro acoustic plugged in, I am playing an acoustic style, finger picking, frailing etc, whilst once the Gretsch is plugged in, out comes the pleccy and an electric "style." A song is a song. Whether it's an elderly lady sat in a pub singing it unaccompanied or Led Zeppelin having Jimmy Page with a Les Paul, it's still Gallows Pole. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Jack Campin Date: 05 Sep 14 - 12:27 PM a new generation of young kids are still being brought up with the smug propaganda that Acoustic is morally superior to Electric...??? They aren't, except in the imagination of a dimwitted troll with an incomprehensible grudge. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 05 Sep 14 - 12:37 PM Jack, when I said "No sitting on the fence mates.. go for it full tooth and claw...".... what I meant was... oh well... never mind..... even your response is good contextual material regarding the topic under discussion... |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Phil Edwards Date: 05 Sep 14 - 12:45 PM Sticking to acoustic may seem retrograde and unimaginative, but it's so hard to get good pickups for your concertina. (A friend of mine sometimes plays an electronic melodeon, but that's another story.) |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: selby Date: 05 Sep 14 - 12:55 PM I hear Dylan was booed and called judas when he first appeared with elec guitar and band. I guess they thought it cannot be folk if its electric. And Florence and Zededee never forgave him |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Jack Blandiver Date: 05 Sep 14 - 01:30 PM ELECTRIC ACOUSTIC What's to choose as long it's a joyful noise? |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Jack Blandiver Date: 05 Sep 14 - 01:46 PM That said, I think ELECTRIC is the more NATURAL of the two & has the greater potential to be effective in terms of sonic procedure and process. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 05 Sep 14 - 04:18 PM Well, I love it in a UK folk club when everything is acoustic! Nothing - even a mic - is plugged in. Of course, ideally, the situation depends on the size and acoustics of the room. And, if the room is free from outside noise.. And without a bar with a till that clangs! Thankfully, I've known lots of situations like that. I love my telecaster, but really love the idea of a totally acoustic folk music club. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Jack Blandiver Date: 05 Sep 14 - 04:58 PM In a folk club, absolutely! Something very WEIRD happens to people once they get behind a microphone, and these feckers DARE complain about my electronic shruti box... I owe my current dependency on electronica to the fact that over the last 14 years we've lived in a series of old terraced houses that weren't built with crwths & fiddles in mind, so most everything I do here is through headphones which opens up all sorts of impossibilities. I used to use computers (I'm a confirmed Ableton freak!) but am now utterly hooked on Revival Analogue Synthesis c/o Korg; the MS-20 Mini redefined my musical thinking when it arrived back in May last year & the Volcas are just too much, though I've just acquired my SECOND Monotribe for stereo sequencing! Having tried and (mostly) failed with an electric violin, back in November I bought a baritone Fender telecaster which I play mostly with an ebow; in terms of Folk Song it sounds like this (which I'd NEVER do in a folk club, with or without a PA: THE TWA CORBIES (Tidal Leavings) - 12.12.13 |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 05 Sep 14 - 05:42 PM Jack Blandiver - terraced house, headphones -- DITTO !!! I've even gone to great lengths and expenditure to find the best compromise solutions to take a direct feed from the speaker output of valve amps so I can attenuate the volume to sensible levels that won't disturb neighbours or the wife when she's in bed sleeping... Heres's another reprint from a recent thread 'elseswhere'.. "Punkfolkrocker's very serious Mission Statement © [2014]: "To perform Traditional Folk songs with respect and empathy using vintage mid 20th Century electronic instruments and amplification technology; as if, in earlier centuries in an alternative dimension and timeline, this technology, and not acoustic instruments, had been commonplace at the moments these songs were originally created and perfomed in public."" |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Jack Blandiver Date: 05 Sep 14 - 05:50 PM Sounds good! Anything we can listen to, PFR??? * For listening pleasure I sit fairly close to my old JVC Mini-monitors hooked up to a THIRD SPEAKER that runs from the POSITIVE terminals of the L&R. Thanks to ENO for this ambient answer to quadrophonica - great for viol consorts & Daphne Oram at levels low enough not to piss off the neighbours. If we want LOUD, we go out in the car. It's all Metronomy just now... |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: MGM·Lion Date: 05 Sep 14 - 05:55 PM And I still maintain that oranges are morally superior to tomatoes... |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 05 Sep 14 - 06:03 PM I wonder which are the best continence products? |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 05 Sep 14 - 06:35 PM not that funny Musket...!! |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Don Firth Date: 05 Sep 14 - 06:39 PM I've played a variety of guitars over the years, mostly classics (nylon strings). I have found them perfectly adequate for my wants and needs, i.e., song accompaniment and some solo (classical) guitar. I played an electric guitar once. I dropped into a tavern in the afternoon to meet a friend and I was early. The place had a band entertaining in the evenings, but the place was practically empty. I knew the bartender, and he asked me if I'd like to try the electric guitar. "The guy who owns it won't mind," he assured me, so I figured, "What the heck?" I did a couple of songs with the electric, then a classic guitar solo, steel strings and narrow fingerboard notwithstanding. Then a couple of fingerpicking songs like "Freight Train." I began to feel All Powerful!!! Godlike!!! Then sanity re-emerged. I checked out all the gear sitting around me and thought dollar signs. Big amp with eleventy-fourteen knobs, and a couple of heavy-duty speakers. And the fact that I could not make full use of this beast unless I was with a cord's length of a couple of wall plugs. Not to mention lugging it around. No wonder the owner of the guitar left his gear here! I had been doing fine as is with my favorite classic guitar and bare nekkid voice, rarely using a mic unless the place where I was singing supplied it (often an outdoor venue). Okay, here's the "fang and claw" part: My ego doesn't need all those watts and amps, thank you. Besides, one of my nephews has that department covered. He plays in a Canadian rock group that, over the years, has practically cornered the market on Junos. The Tragically Hip. Rob Baker, the tall galoot with the long hair. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 05 Sep 14 - 06:47 PM You expecting A grade material without buying a ticket at the concert venue Al ? |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Leadfingers Date: 05 Sep 14 - 07:29 PM I personally prefer acoustic , but there are occasions when PA is a necessity . When I was in Fools Gold 30 plus years ago PA was the only way we could properly balance three voices and all the various instruments |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: PHJim Date: 05 Sep 14 - 07:34 PM I was so tempted to make a smart ass comment here. Why would anyone want to pit acoustic and electric against each other? I don't care if I ever hear ZZ Top unpugged and I don't have any desire to hear Doyle Lawson plugged in, but I enjoy listening to them both. You don't have to make a choice. mandolin versus banjo, blues versus country, beets versus carrots, tea versus coffee, pants versus shirts, standard notation versus tab versus ear... Each has its use and some can even overlap, but this is a silly thread. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Don Firth Date: 05 Sep 14 - 07:49 PM Verily and forsooth! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 05 Sep 14 - 08:51 PM I'm gonna make a wild guess.. It's 50 years since the Dylan 'Judas' earthquake rocked the foundations of 'folk'. I am guesstimating the USA now has a more mature appreciation of the symbotic relationship between acoustic and electic, than tight arse clenched cultural class ridden old blighty.. "an electric.. how dare the bounder... Smithers get me my shotgun !!!" |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 05 Sep 14 - 09:32 PM acoustic vs electric.... All I know is, don't bet on the white guitar. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 05 Sep 14 - 09:40 PM for 15 years I only bought black guitars so the wife wouln't notice the new ones... which white guitar.. at 2.30 in the morning that's well intreguing...??? |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,Stim Date: 06 Sep 14 - 12:04 AM Jack Blandiver--I firmly and resolutely believe that if you keep your eyes,ears, and mind open then you will find something wonderful everyday--today, it was your "Twa Corbies"--the way you let those voices ring and melt into each other was a pure delight! |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,Stim Date: 06 Sep 14 - 12:42 AM As to you, Don Firth, I feel truly and profoundly sorry for you. You've deprived yourself of the joys a multitude of sounds and expressions. No twang, no reverb, no echo or delay. No overdrive, no decay. You've never experienced the clear snap of a Strat--never played clean, cascading melodies on a Les Paul. You've never shuffled through the circle of fifths on an ES-175, or played Scotty Moore licks through a couple of P-90s. Never played the into to "Mr. Tambourine Man" on a Rickenbacker 12, and never played "Johnny B-Good". You haven't been able to be the lead instrumentalist in an ensemble, never been able to trade fours with a sax player or trumpeter, never vamped chords while the piano played a break, never traded off rhythms with a drummer. Make all the excuses you want, but the fact is that you've shut yourself off from playing a lot of the great music of the last 75 years. And that's a pity, because it was all right there at your fingertips. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: michaelr Date: 06 Sep 14 - 01:14 AM You're all being silly. Everyone knows that folk music can only be played on acoustic guitars. When you use an electric guitar, it's rock'n'roll. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Mr Red Date: 06 Sep 14 - 02:59 AM speaking as an electronic engineer who values his ears ACOUSTIC thankyou |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Jack Blandiver Date: 06 Sep 14 - 03:24 AM Stim! Thanks for kind words on my Corbies - much appreciated! * White guitars? Black guitars? Y'all on about Les Paul Customs right? In the latest episode of Siblings (BBC3 - repeated ad infinitum through the week no doubt) Dan does something unspeakable to a WHITE one, but I dream of a BLACK one. In fact, the ideal electric guitar of my youth was a black CSL Les Paul Custom copy which had the best action of any guitar I've ever played. Wish I still had it... |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 06 Sep 14 - 05:35 AM no I was on about Lesley Nielsen on boxing in one of the police file movies all i know is, don't bet on the white guy... actually a thing of beauty is a joy forever...creedence clearwater - the memory of that guy playing a gretsch white falcon..one of the good things in my life. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 06 Sep 14 - 06:14 AM I've got a Gretsch White Falcon, modelled on the Stephen Stills special. Sadly, I rarely get to play it live as it doesn't suit either my folk or rock playing. Stunning instrument though. It is on display in the study rather than in a case hidden away. Possibly the most I have ever paid for a guitar. Gretsch make excellent electrics, bloody good semis but in my experience awful acoustics. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,Desi C Date: 06 Sep 14 - 08:04 AM Electric guitars are simply way out of place in the average Folk Club, They are way too loud for what are mostly quite small clubs. Personally I find acoustic a much superior sound anyway and far better suited to playing Folk and the kind of music played in Folk Clubs. Finally American Country music went mostly electric over the past two decads and totally ruined the genre. Keep it acoustic |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 06 Sep 14 - 08:52 AM Funnily enough, the acoustic I play most, a Rainsong OM10, is possibly a bit too ruddy loud for most "singaround" folk clubs.... |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST Date: 06 Sep 14 - 09:07 AM Musket - Don't hit it so hard ! |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 06 Sep 14 - 10:36 AM It likes it, the little minx..... |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 06 Sep 14 - 10:51 AM i suppose the problem is that Billy Bragg has been one of the most influential troubadours of the last few years. his whole is determinedly electric. similarly - you couldn't really attempt many John Martyn. mature work on an unprocessed signal. whereas people like The Home Service are really acoustic players with no real afinity for their electric insruments. somelectric players have redrawn the musical landscape - the same goes for synths as well of course. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Roger the Skiffler Date: 06 Sep 14 - 11:05 AM Horses for courses. Things don't always have to be "better" or in competition, variety is good. RtS |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,Stim Date: 06 Sep 14 - 11:13 AM Desi-If electric instruments ruined American country music, they ruined the genre more than 60 years ago. It gives me a certain amount of delight to point out to acoustic minded persons that Merle Travis, whose "Travis Picking" is so much esteemed and imitated by acoustic guitar instrumentalists, performed and recorded on electric guitar. It is said that Merle's Travis-Bigsby solid body influenced Leo Fender in developing the Broadcaster/Telecaster, and, I remember that Fender was a regular sponsor of The Grand Ol' Oprey back in the Ryman days. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 06 Sep 14 - 11:37 AM Of course, Hank Williams had an electric lap guitar in his band. Indeed, I would say that electric country guitar is a lot more interesting than acoustic country guitar. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Jack Campin Date: 06 Sep 14 - 11:38 AM I mostly prefer trad music sessions to singarounds. And I far prefer the way a skilled electric guitarist can play traditional tunes over acoustic fingerpicking; the sustain provided by an electric guitar allows for a much more lyrically idiomatic style than the sort of robotic plunking pioneered by acoustic anoraks like John Renbourn. But... The charity shop next to where I am now has a Fender Rumble 100 bass box (with 15" speaker) for a good price. I'd love to be able to play an electric fretless bass through it. But I don't drive and it would be like carrying a piano on my back, it would never leave the house. The latest thing I've taken up is the dizi, it's helluva loud and weighs a few ounces. In decibels per gram it has the Highland pipes beat by a long way. I think the same problem is why a lot of young people use acoustic kit. They're less likely to drive than older folks, so it's more practical in situations where they won't have an amp already at the venue. The idea that this is motivated by acceptance of "smug propaganda" is just patronizing shit. They're perfectly capable of deciding for themselves what works. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: bubblyrat Date: 06 Sep 14 - 02:38 PM I have had an Avalon acoustic guitar (fitted with a Fishman Prefix Plus ) for some years now. I have enjoyed playing it in various "acoustic" venues , ie folk clubs ,the Herschel Arms Irish Session in Slough, the "singing train" at Bunkfest and in the Bedford at Sidmouth.However , when recording or playing for a dance band , I find the amplification facility invaluable ; I often practice at home with my "amp" set up for just a bit of "chorus" and the resulting sound is most gratifying !! What's not to like ?? It doesn't bother "Will Fly ", now does it ?? |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Don Firth Date: 06 Sep 14 - 07:11 PM Well, Guest Stim, I feel truly and profoundly sorry for YOU! You've obviously never appreciated the sound and feel of a top-quality concert classic guitar such as a José Ramirez or an Ignacio Fleta. Or an Arcangel Fernandez flamenco guitar. Or heard the sound of a Ramirez fill a large concert hall, such as the Seattle Opera House (3,600 seats) to every corner, with crisp clarity, purity of tone, and without electronic distortion or tinkering. This kind of clean, pure tone comes from fine tone-woods, well-designed fan-bracing under the soundboard, and very fine, careful craftsmanship. NOT from twisting knobs and routing current between wall-plugs and a half a ton of gear that you have to lug around. With the actual sound being produce by the strings you pluck (or pick), not by the undulations of a rack of speaker cones. I don't know the make of the rig that I was playing that afternoon in the tavern, but I DO know that it was totally inappropriate for the music that I prefer to play. Among other things, with the exception of working with Bob Nelson from time to time, or singing a couple of concerts with Judy Flenniken before she graduated from college, got married, and moved to Florida, I work alone. And I have no desire whatsoever to play lead in a group, rock, folk, or otherwise. Roger McGuinn gets a helluvalot of music out of his Rickenbacker and I enjoy his music generally. But—the collection of songs he posts on "Folk Den," although some good stuff per se, is grossly overproduced—which is a major flaw with otherwise fine musicians hooked on electronic gadgetry. YOU, Guest Stim, have obviously never experience the sheer joy of filling a concert hall with the cascade of sparkling, glittering notes of Tàrrega's "Requerdoes de la Alhambra," (Tremolo Study) or the simple, flowing beauty of "Romance de Amor," a Spanish folk song arranged for guitar solo by Vincenté Gomez—and played with the fingernails on a fine quality classical guitar—unencumbered by electronic amplification and distortion. Pure music. Not to mention accompaniments for several hundred folk songs and ballads, played on the same guitar. By the way, I carry the guitar around in a good, stout, hardshell case along with a spare set of strings, a 440-A tuning fork, and a polishing cloth. I don't need a whole road crew. Don Firth P. S. And "Travis Picking" works perfectly well on a classic guitar. P. P. S. On the tube a couple evenings ago, I saw a young Asian woman playing Irish music on an electric violin. Sounded kind of haunting. I didn't know there was such a thing. Here's an idea, Stim. Why don't you write to Itzhak Perlman, tell him to chuck his million dollar 1743 Guarneri del Gesu into the Dumpster and get himself an electric fiddle? I'm sure it would open up a whole new world to him! But—would he want anything to do with that world? |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST Date: 06 Sep 14 - 09:19 PM All this comparison of acoustic and electric is very interesting, but the question posed in the OP wasn't which is better, but this: Can we now have a go at analysing why a new generation of young kids are still being brought up with the smug propaganda that Acoustic is morally superior to Electric...???" This demonstrates the logical fallacy of unfounded premise. In fact, it's complete bollocks, given the number of young people playing rock and hip-hop. What, a bunch of young people that punkfolkrocker happens to know are being snooty about electric instruments and he thinks that means there a lot of young people who feel that way, and that some group of older people is making them that way? In the real world, young people playing acoustic instruments are about as common as old people playing acoustic instruments -- a distinct minority. And the reason this is happening even amongst that minority who play acoustic? As this thread demonstrates, some people just like it better. It's not really a conspiracy. Or even a movement. But getting back to the comparison between electric and acoustic as they pertain to the definition of folk music, I find it interesting that some people would argue both that Steeleye Span plays "real" folk music because it's mostly traditional and that Steeleye Span doesn't play "real" folk music because it's not aoustic. The fact is that there are two very different definitions of folk music, one that is based on process and longevity and another that is based on sound and feel. The process-based definition can and must encompass electric renditions of traditional folk songs. The sound and feel definition can't, because part of the sound and feel is the fact that the music is acoustic. Sorry, that sounded simplistic and like it was trying to be a clear definition. Really, there are no lines in the world, no black and white. Everything is in shades of grey. John P P.S: my music room contains two acoustic guitars, an old Martin tenor guitar, an electric guitar, a mountain dulcimer, a Celtic harp, an electric bass guitar, an oud, a couple of synthesizers, a Chinese yuan, an electronic drum machine, a lute guitar, and a large pile of hand percussion. There is no "better". There is only different. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,Stim Date: 06 Sep 14 - 10:01 PM The thing is, Don, you don't know what I have experienced, either thru listening or thru playing. Although you seem like a pleasant enough guy, I think you are very narrow in your interests and tastes. That is certainly your prerogative. My problem is that you are dismissive of those of us who have a broader sense of what music is. Also, it makes me feel creepy when I hear people talk about "Purity". And, by the way, Perlman likes rock n' roll a lot. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Don Firth Date: 07 Sep 14 - 12:44 AM And the same applies to you regarding your assumed knowledge of my experience—through both listening and playing. My interests and tastes are anything but narrow. Nor am I dismissive of other's tastes in music. And you would really have to go some to actually have a broader sense of what music is than I do. There are those who would consider me an old geezer, and they would undoubtedly be right. But all my faculties are intact. I grew up listening to the radio (pre-TV), listened to programs early on like "Grand Ole Opry," "National Barn Dance," "Manhattan Merry-Go-Round" "Your Hit Parade" (first national appearance of Frank Sinatra as a stick-skinny crooner—squealing girls and all that), the "Longines Symphonette" and the "Frederick and Nelson Concert Hour." And the "Metropolitan Opera Saturday Broadcast" (one entire opera, with Milton Cross outlining the action in each up-coming act). As a teenager, I first heard Burl Ives talking about historical events and singing songs that sprang from those events. I think I learn as much about history from Burl Ives as I did from most high school history teachers. And in greater detail. In college, I first majored in English Literature, but I frequented a student "hangout" called "The Chalet" where I met and listened to a couple of different jazz groups, and was friends with several of the musicians. Also from time to time, a student string quartet from the University of Washington. And I heard my first live folk music, an informal concert sung by an excellent local folk singer [look him up it the search box and / or Google him—Walt Robertson. Plenty of info there.]. Inspired by him and other singers I had heard, including Burl Ives, Richard Dyer-Bennet, and Susan Reed (never heard of her, have you--she was nationally known at the time and even starred in a movie with her Irish harp!), I took up folk music in a big way and changed my major from English Lit. to music. I got a lot of Stim, I could go on for pages on my background and the different musical styles I've become acquainted with—and in some cases, have played. But I don't want to brag and I don't want to bore everybody else. Suffice it to say that as far as the "narrowness"—or extent— of my interests and tastes" is concerned, you don't know diddly-squat. Over and out! Don Firth P. S. A couple of other things: have YOU ever attended a live symphony concert, opera, ballet, or recital by a prominent singer or instrumentalist? I have. Met and talked with Segovia on three occasions, French guitar duo Ida Presti and Alexandre Lagoya once, Pete Seeger twice, Peggy Seeger and Ewan McColl on a couple of occasions, swapped songs with Gordon Bok in a friend's living room when he was in town for a concert, Met Joan Baez on two occasions, and back in the early Fifties I spend plenty of time swapping songs with Sandy Paton before he went back East. Plus I knew a couple of musicians who played in the Seattle Symphony Orchestra. Not to mention my nephew, who is the lead guitarist (electric) in The Tragically Hip, a prominent Canadian rock group. Heard him in action many times. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Jack Campin Date: 07 Sep 14 - 05:07 AM And, by the way, Perlman likes rock n' roll a lot. Perlman is a narrow-minded bigot who dismisses the whole historical performance movement as a bunch of amateurs playing crude and second-rate instruments. He thinks his axe is the ultimate standard and if you don't sound like him you're a bozo. (Electric violins are not the only way, but for some settings they are the best choice and can do things that Perlman can't). I haven't bought a single Perlman recording after finding out about his attitudes, and I find less to appreciate in the old recordings of his that I have every time I hear them. He doesn't have a fraction of the sensitivity of Andrew Manze or Rachel Podger. I think I gave all my Segovia recordings to a charity shop. Dull as fuck. I was never going to listen to them again. I have heard some flamenco players who had something to say, but owning a flamenco guitar doesn't buy you imagination and passion. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Bounty Hound Date: 07 Sep 14 - 06:19 AM As pointed out above, there's not been much on an attempt to actually answer the original question, just lots of comparisons between the two. I suspect part of it is that 'folk' has become a broad church, and there are lots of younger singer songwriters who maybe would not cut it if they hung their hat on a peg labled with another genre, but can get away with selling their wares because it's acoustic and therefor must be folk. On the side issue of comparison, I noticed Steeleye mentioned earlier, and I'll just repeat a qoute from the late Tim Hart when challenged on that issue. Tim said that at the time the songs were written, they would have either been sung unaccompanied, or if accompanied, would have been accompanied with whatever was available at the time, and in using elecric instruments, Steeleye were doing exactly the same. Flawless logic. As far as I'm concerned. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 07 Sep 14 - 09:21 AM Tim Hart got it right, and having travelled far just in order to see Steeleye Span over the years, you can't argue with the finished product. Now... I have a particular acoustic guitar which has a very low action. I have a humbucker over the sound hole and I can use the saddle piezo for one song and I am playing acoustic. I flick the switch and the humbucker kicks in. Sounds (and plays thanks to action) like a telecaster. Versus? Not a word I recognise in this debate. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,Desi C Date: 07 Sep 14 - 11:41 AM I see most comments have compltely missed one point I made, which is that most folk clubs are just too small to wrrant an electric guitar. Particularly as most electric guitar players seem only interested in the noise level! |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 07 Sep 14 - 12:08 PM "Most electric players only seem interested in the noise level." Not much you can say to that. But I shall anyway. Most non players of electrics have penis envy. Most Bodhran players wish they were Irish. Most owners of Taylor guitars drive estate cars. Most Les Paul players like to strike a Jimmy Page pose. Most people with Takemine guitars only know three chords, four if include the bum note when they get it wrong. Any more absurd notions? |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Airymouse Date: 07 Sep 14 - 12:37 PM Warning. I know little about playing an acoustic guitar and have never played an amplified or electric guitar. Furthermore, I sing mostly folk songs from Virginia. There are plenty of examples of folk singers who accompany themselves traditionally with some sort of musical instrument; e.g. Larry Older (fiddle NY) Frank Proffitt (Banjo NC) Jean Ritchie (dulcimer, KY) Rick Ward (fretless banjo, NC), and in the acknowledgements to the Mary Lomax Ballad Book, Art Rosenbaum mentions that while Mary no longer plays her guitar, the instrument was part of her traditional music background. I think in Virginia almost all folk singers sang there songs without accompaniment. On the plus side, I have listened to Carlos Montoya practice the guitar in his home in Wainscott NY and every year I attend the International guitar festival at Radford University. Admittedly Covington Hall has incredibly good acoustics, but I still think I have heard what can be accomplished on a classical unamplified guitar. The right acoustic guitar in the right hands is like a one man orchestra. I have a colleague who plays an amplified guitar and who makes the case that with amplification you can get better sustain and better reverberation than you can get on an acoustic guitar of the same quality and cost. If you go to you tube and enter schang1971 you can judge for yourself (go to the practice sessions and skip all the maths lectures) Part of the problem the amplified side has is that much amplified guitar music is played badly. At least if you listen to S. Chang you will hear well played amplified music. By the way look at the finger nails on his right hand (They are not bits of tennis-table balls glued on.) |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Don Firth Date: 07 Sep 14 - 12:54 PM The bats must be out in force lately, because immense torrents of guano seem to be blizzarding down. First of all, Acoustic is not "morally superior" to Electric. Nor is Electric "morally superior to Acoustic (which is what a number of people who seem to regard themselves as discriminated against seem to be asserting—not surprisingly—as loud as they can). I mention that I tried a electric on one occasion (not the only occasion, by the way), but preferred to stick with my acoustic guitar for the kind of music (musics) that I prefer to perform. Then Stim, apparently feeling put upon by my esthetic choices, proceeds to attack my Ignorance of The True Path, and calls me limited and "narrow" in my knowledge and experience. The fact is, my choices were (are) based on my extensive knowledge of almost all kinds of music (some pretty exotic) and my experience playing and performing the music from that wide array that I prefer to play. And Jack, I had not heard that Perlman held this attitude. If true, I'd say that he could use a good, brisk dope-slap. As to Segovia, within his later years, he did get pretty dull. Played the same pieces too many times and apparently didn't bother to try to stretch himself. As to being able to play Flamenco is concerned, owning a Flamenco guitar isn't going to do it, but talking a couple of two-hour lessons per week from Antonio Zori during the six months he was here during the Seattle World's Fair in 1962 (accompanying dancers at the Spanish Pavilion) gave me a bit of an edge there…. This, plus other resources that are available. It's not a question of moral superiority. So let's stop getting our knickers in a twist and attacking other people whose preferences, especially when based on wide knowledge and examination of options, are different from our own. Other people's choices are not binding on you. And YOU may be the one who's missing something…. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,Stim Date: 07 Sep 14 - 05:44 PM You did say this, Don: "Okay, here's the "fang and claw" part: My ego doesn't need all those watts and amps, thank you." which seems to make it clear that you think electric music is about ego. The thing is, Don, I've been here on Mudcat since the days when Gargoyle posted under his own name. That means I 've read just about everything you've ever posted about your musical tastes, influences, and education, not to mention your performing career, and the gatherings that you've had at your house. I know about your broadcasting work, the operas you like, etc. AND--if you had paid attention over the years, you wouldn't have asked "have YOU ever attended a live symphony concert, opera, ballet, or recital by a prominent singer or instrumentalist?" cuz you'd know-- |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,Stim Date: 07 Sep 14 - 05:46 PM Ask to you DesiC-we didn't ignore your point, we were being polite. Read Musket's post. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 07 Sep 14 - 06:16 PM Whenever you need someone to be impolite just pick up the bat phone. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Don Firth Date: 07 Sep 14 - 07:06 PM Well, Stim, I was not referring to you. How could I when you hadn't even posted yet? I made my observations and expressed an opinion in the spirit of "fang and claw" as requested by the OP. I don't think my nephew has ego problems. If so, a mantelpiece groaning under the weight of all those Juno Awards undoubtedly calms his nerves. But YOU--having fourteen varieties of wounded-ego hissy-fit, proceed to charge into the fray and attack me--for insulting you!! It seems to me that YOU were the one who insulted yourself by loudly announcing to the multitudes that you thought I was talking about YOU--and then started hurling personal insults and attacks at me. Take a good look in a mirror, Stim! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Jack Campin Date: 07 Sep 14 - 07:58 PM most folk clubs are just too small to warrant an electric guitar I have played in Scottish trad sessions in Sandy Bells a few years ago round a small table in a cramped space at the back of the pub - much smaller than any folk club I've been to. The lineup was two harmonicas, me on recorder/whistle and Stretch Dawrson on electric lead guitar. You could hear every note from everybody, Stretch didn't have anything to prove with volume. And the electric technology was essential - I've never heard anyone get that sort of fluidity with melodic playing of those tunes on an acoustic guitar. (I've also heard him play jigs for a rapper dance practice - but I can't imagine any way he could done it for real performances in the usual settings). I heard one guy at Whitby this year doing something very odd with an acoustic guitar (great big wire-strung job). I think of it as the "Where's Wally?" school of folk guitar. A torrent of notes and if you listened very carefully and knew the repertoire very well, you could spot the tune's stripy jumper in the middle of it all, but it would take you about 16 bars. Only a hardcore trad anorak like me would ever get it. Very ingenious, technically amazing and musically pointless. Any musical genre has gone into a phase of degeneration when it becomes a combination of quiz show and track&field event. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,Stim Date: 07 Sep 14 - 08:47 PM We're done, Don. Musket and the always informative Jack Campin have covered the issue more succinctly than I. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Sep 14 - 08:58 PM yes indeed Jack. i'd forgot about that fluidity which folk players have done so well. immediately on reading your post, i thought of that group called Bully Wee - don't know if you remember them. not my cup of tea - but they were damn good. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Don Firth Date: 07 Sep 14 - 11:16 PM The electric technology was "essential" in a Scottish tradition session…. Words to live by!! How about electric bagpipes? And playing an acoustic guitar—OR an electric guitar—and doing something complicated to the point of incomprehensibility is not the guitar's fault, whether electric or acoustic. Don Firth P. S. It just occurred to me that those real cowboys out on the cattle trail that the Lomaxes collect real cowboy songs from back in the early 1900s must have had some really long extension cords.... |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Don Firth Date: 07 Sep 14 - 11:24 PM But then, you're right. We're done. Move on folks! Nothing to see here! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Don Firth Date: 08 Sep 14 - 01:03 AM Except, perhaps, this: One of my best friends, who, unfortunately, passed away some years ago—and whom I first meet when I was teaching guitar and he came to me for lessons—started out on a Harmony 173 classic (around $57.00 when he bought it and very plain-looking)—and played that guitar till then end of his life. He never missed a "hoot" (informal song fest) and hosted hundreds of hoots in his beach home north of Seattle, never missed a song circle until everyone started "hymn singing" out of "Rise Up Singing." He arranged for local folk singers to sing at Everett, WA's "Salty Sea Days Festival" and other similar events. And his little red Geo Metro was constantly zipping between Seattle, Everett, Bellingham, and Vancouver, B.C., where he joined in their singing groups and often arranging get-togethers between the various groups He played fairly simple, straightforward accompaniments, supportive but not intrusive, and he sang in a rich bass-baritone. One of his favorite singers, whose records he plundered relentlessly, was Ed McCurdy. They sounded a great deal alike. He knew hundreds and hundreds of songs, gleaned records and song books constantly for new songs, plus everything he could learn about the songs themselves. Check the search window for "John Dwyer-Songs & Stories" for reams of information about this remarkable man, who did much more to spread enthusiasm for folk music than anyone I know. And I've known some remarkable people. The only guitar I ever saw John play was that simple, inexpensive Harmony 173 classic. At his songfest and wake at Seattle's Camp Long (with dozens of people from all up and down the highway between Seattle and Vancouver, B.C. attending), a chair was reserved for John. Occupied by his inexpensive, simple-looking guitar. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 08 Sep 14 - 03:20 AM {Sigh}. I thought you said we were done? Dick Gaughan playing Crooked Jack. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 08 Sep 14 - 05:13 AM more of a soundscape than a song, jack, I reckon, but nothing wrong with that, and an interesting listen. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,Vince Date: 08 Sep 14 - 06:06 AM Big Al: "i suppose the problem is that Billy Bragg has been one of the most influential troubadours of the last few years. his whole is determinedly electric. " A few years back, whenever he walked on with an acoustic he would get the "Judas!" heckle. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Jack Campin Date: 08 Sep 14 - 06:16 AM The electric technology was "essential" in a Scottish tradition session Essential if you were to play those tunes (roughly, the sort of thing you hear on Take the Floor) on a guitar. Other instruments (accordion, flute, violin, pipes, piano) don't have a problem giving them the right flow and expression, an acoustic guitar does; the unevenness of timbre, absence of ornamentation and the slightly off timing required by acoustic guitar picking disrupt the tune. (Almost any recording by John Renbourn can stand as a ghastly warning). Come to think of it Kevin Macleod does pretty well, but he uses a resonator tenor guitar. It sounds closer to an electric than to a normal folk guitar, and he plays it almost like an oud - no chords at all and lots of very subtle pitch bends. How about electric bagpipes? Most of them have design problems that limit their usefulness, but they're basically a substitute for smallpipes and work in the same situations - far more sensible than Highland pipes (or even some border pipes) in a small room. And they will probably get better. The best electronic pipes aren't much cheaper than acoustic ones, though. Iain Grant (one of the harmonica players I just mentioned) could play duets with himself on mouth organ and electric bagpipes. Stuart Cassell (formerly of the Red Hot Chilli Pipers) has appeared on stage with a Deger electronic chanter taped along the side of his Highland pipe chanter so he could switch between natural and MIDI sound in a flash. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 08 Sep 14 - 09:15 AM Fundamentally, we have been skirting around the issue. Electric guitars get you laid. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 08 Sep 14 - 10:33 AM there goes Musket, boasting again - pretending that he knows all about girls' bottoms......as if any woman would reveal her most intimate jewel to a low character like him..... |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 08 Sep 14 - 10:57 AM Their bottoms are not their most intimate jewel. It's Akenaton who has the fascination with what people use their bottoms for. Listen, all male guitarists went through the pain of reading The Bert Weedon Play with Yourself in a Day book because we thought it might increase our chances of getting laid. When did a fit lass at a gig last ask if the drummer had a girlfriend eh? Rhetorical question anyway. Rockin' with short & curly leads.. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: dick greenhaus Date: 08 Sep 14 - 11:14 AM Without taking sides, I'd only like to point out that there's a vast difference in sound between an amplified acoustic guitar and an all-electric one. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Roger the Skiffler Date: 08 Sep 14 - 12:30 PM If you think drummers luck out then pity the poor washboard/kazoo player! For years I waited for some chick* to ask me: "Is that a kazoo in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?" before I realised it was never going to happen. Herself loves me for the size of my repertoire even if my performance often falls short.(Boom Boom). RtS (*shows how long ago!) |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 08 Sep 14 - 01:06 PM I'm surprised Roger.. You should have led with the washboard, they like a man willing to scrub his own Y fronts.... Mind you, I used to know a washboardist called Les, and let me tell you. He wasn't backwards at going forward, despite being old enough to be their granddad.... Dick, the difference can be blurred these days, especially with the low actions you get on some acoustic guitars of late.. My electro acoustic Rainsong can be whatever it likes and play how I like. The only difference being whether I press the foot pedal on the DI to go straight to mixer or to my effects processor.... Technology is allowing some interesting combinations.... |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 08 Sep 14 - 01:16 PM so what was it kicked off puberty - the blue tailed fly, or there is a tavern in the town? |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 08 Sep 14 - 01:24 PM Bobby Shafter... |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Don Firth Date: 08 Sep 14 - 01:36 PM So you missed all that about the musician and singer of folk songs that I was talking about, eh? About a person who dug into folk music with a passion, learned immense amounts about it, and learned a staggering number of songs, which he sang tastefully and entertainingly, often sparking the interest and enthusiasm of many others to do the same? And obviously found a great deal of joy and fulfillment in learning them and singing them. And he did this for years and years, singing for and with hundreds of people? And he did it using his intelligence, his voice, and his plain, inexpensive acoustic guitar. You missed all that, right? Or did you even read it? I thought this was a folk music site. But I seem to have wandered into the Land of the Philistines. Don Firth P. S. "Electric guitars get you laid." Ah!! The crux of the matter. You need it as a prosthetic! Sorrowful, Pop-gun, really sorrowful! |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 08 Sep 14 - 01:39 PM Ah, but we don't have the advantage of your wit, wisdom, charm and good looks Don. Some of us have to depend on a strat' and a large willy. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Don Firth Date: 08 Sep 14 - 02:10 PM Well, that's true.... But doesn't the Depends kind of--spoil the moment? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 08 Sep 14 - 04:19 PM It depends... |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,Stim Date: 08 Sep 14 - 06:00 PM Don-Though I'd said I'd leave you to the mercies of Musket, I'd be remiss if I didn't say that I looked up your friend, and I even listened to a couple of his tracks at the Bob Nelson Collection, specifically, Ben Backstay and The Foggy, Foggy, Dew. He had a pleasing voice and seemed entertaining. As he was a friend of yours, I am sure he is sorely missed, and I extend my sympathies to you and such others as may have known and been touched by him. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Don Firth Date: 08 Sep 14 - 08:47 PM Thank you, Stim. And those others number in the hundreds, and they all have rich, fond memories of him. With spirit, a unique take on life, enthusiasm for the songs, a pleasant, listenable voice, and a $57.00 acoustic guitar. Those truly interest in traditional folk music--and the occasional newly written folk-like song--could (should) learn a lot from those rare people like John Dwyer. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: ripov Date: 09 Sep 14 - 02:09 AM Electric instruments don't have to be louder than accoustic, this is up to the performer. Ahd the the OP asked about type of instrument, not volume. Due to the difficulty of obtaining the appropriate traditional instruments (serpents, sackbuts and bass viols), bass instruments at sessions are frequently electric bass guitars with tiny battery amplifiers, which are also much more portable than double basses or cellos. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine Date: 09 Sep 14 - 04:18 PM Well if it came to blows, I'd sooner have a solid-bodied electric in my hand than a hollow piece of finely-crafted tonewood. Moral superiority? That's fighting talk! |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Don Firth Date: 09 Sep 14 - 08:27 PM It strikes me that, although highly similar, and played essentially the same way, acoustic guitars and electric guitars are two different breeds of cat—different instruments. Willie Nelson plays a beat-up old Martin classic with a pick, and Chet Atkins plays an electric with his fingers. Both produce some pretty fine music. I once heard Chet Atkins play Tàrrega's Requerdos de la Alhambra on a José Ramirez classic (on the Glen Campbell TV show, complete with close-ups of his hands). Beautiful job! J. S. Bach wrote his "Toccata and Fugue in D minor" for the organ (he was a church organist as well as "Kapellmeister"). I've also heard it played on the harpsichord. And the piano. And a full symphony orchestra. Different sound. Same music. Sounded good in all four renditions. I've also heard "The William Tell Overture" ("Hi-Yo, Silver!") on the hammered dulcimer! This whole matter of which musical instrument is "morally superior" to which is a debate that amply demonstrates that the debaters don't really know diddly-squat about music. Certain instruments may be more appropriate for a particular piece of music. But "morally superior?" Asinine!! Try this on your nose flute: Taking in a performance by two friends of mine ("Mike Neun and Brian Bresslar: An Act as Exciting as its Name."), Brian sang "Hey, Mr. Tambourine Man" complete with a damned fine approximation of the accompaniment Roger McGuinn plays on his Rickenbaker—but on a baritone ukulele!! Brought the house down! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 10 Sep 14 - 05:02 AM As a child, learning violin, I had to play toccata and fugue, although in Dmaj not min. This was part of my grade 7 exam, and an excellent study in using the middle two strings for having two tunes running simultaneously. Many of Bach's cadence pieces play well on different instruments and I used to weave in bits of the first cello suite (in Gmaj) as part of a solo on my gretsch back when I played rock. Old Johann, being a particular hero of mine gets to influence me. Don, you will find his work on more instruments than either of us could imagine. Classical guitar was after his time yet I have an excellent Julian Bream recording of many of his shorter pieces. Still, not too sure of what your point is regarding acoustic v electric? |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 10 Sep 14 - 09:49 AM is there no start to this man's talent! |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) Date: 10 Sep 14 - 03:34 PM Soundscape,huh? I confess I've lost interest in music, but the old sangs still have me beguiled... This is what I meant earlier by electronics being more Natural because you're engaging with organic process - it's more about sound / noise aesthetic than playing notes which has never interested me too much. Thanks, Pete7*! Much appreciated. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Jack Campin Date: 10 Sep 14 - 04:05 PM J. S. Bach wrote his "Toccata and Fugue in D minor" for the organ Current thinking is that it was not a toccata, was originally in A minor, was intended for the violin and certainly wasn't by Bach. It sets some kind of record for misattribution. Andrew Manze has recorded a terrific version of the violin reconstruction. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: kendall Date: 10 Sep 14 - 07:44 PM I avoid places that allow electricians. ACOUSTIC |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Don Firth Date: 10 Sep 14 - 07:57 PM Guys, I DO happen to have some acquaintance with the works of J. S. Bach. At both the School of Music at the University of Washington and in the Music Department at the Cornish School of Allied Arts, going through folios of the music of Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart with a pencil in hand was central to the classes in music analysis and the more advanced classes in music theory. Speaking specifically of J. S. Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor, BWV565, after the class at Cornish had spent the better part of a week analyzing it as described, the professor, John Cowell (who happens to be a reasonably well-known modern composer) convened the class at a large Episcopal cathedral in Seattle where he was the organist on Sundays. He demonstrated the church's organ (pipes ranging from as large as tree trunks down to smaller than a penny whistle), showed us what could be done with different manuals and couplers, then uncorked the monster with a couple of selections, one of which was the aforementioned Toccata and Fugue in D minor, BWV565. Standing around the console and within a few yards of the banks of pipes, it was pretty impressive, to say the least! I know that there are chickens out there squabbling over whether Bach wrote Bach or did Buxtehude write Bach, did Mozart really write Mozart, or was that Rossini on vacation in Vienna? I've heard some of these mewlings and pewlings, but I've neither heard nor seen anything that could qualify as definitive proof. There is no shortage of twerps out there. Conspiracy theorists fall into the same bucket. You did know, of course, that Marlowe wrote Shakespeare. Don Firth P. S. By the way, I don't think that pipe organ at St. Marks going full blast would be all that great an instrument for accompanying a solo-voice rendition of, say, "Wild Mountain Thyme." Not immoral. Just tasteless. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine Date: 11 Sep 14 - 05:58 AM "Certain instruments may be more appropriate for a particular piece of music. But "morally superior?" Asinine!!" Nail on the head, Don. Love playing Bach on guitar. I'm mostly a steel-string acoustic player. Mind you, Toccata and Fugue in Dm- if there's ever a piece that ought to be played on electric in a rather-over-the-top way, that's got to be it ;-) |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Jack Campin Date: 11 Sep 14 - 06:35 AM There is not a flicker of evidence that Bach had anything to do with the "Toccata and Fugue in D minor" and a lot of stylistic reasons to suggest it was somebody else's work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toccata_and_Fugue_in_D_minor,_BWV_565 Don, you had the misfortune to be at college during a bad period for Baroque historical scholarship. People only started sorting Bach's attributions and chronology out properly after you left. This is not "nitpicking" and it isn't conspiracy theory either, it's mainstream musicology. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine Date: 11 Sep 14 - 07:49 AM You learn something new every day Jack. I was once at a wedding where it was played as the bride entered. Wonder how that ended? |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 11 Sep 14 - 09:09 AM Dunno about you Al but my talent had a serious end. After breaking my wrist at 16 my violin days were over. Got as far as 2nd violin in Notts Youth Orchestra and Nottingham does have its own Albert Hall.... So bragging rights till you have to own as to which Albert Hall... Don. In Dmaj, it sounds slightly different of course but an octave in Dmaj takes you through first position of the middle two strings D and A, hence the study piece for exam. Electric violin? Yeah, heard Swarb, Kennedy and all the usual suspects. I can get my wrist around a viola (just) and the idea of a Yamaha empty frame model is something I am pondering over. Out of interest, I haven't decided yet whether my Rainsong OM10 is electric or acoustic.. Come to think about it, both jazz guitars are loud enough unplugged for a pub singaround. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 11 Sep 14 - 10:19 AM Just skimming through my collection. I have a single violin playing Toccata and fugue in Amin on a BBC disk from 1999. Jack. I hear the arguments and whilst no musicologist, I would put forward the view that cadences that have no beginning nor end are a trademark of JSB, being his "infinite glory of god" approach. This work is full of them. Compare that with say Handel or Vivaldi, where the end is always in sight and..,. Oh. Sorry. Les Paul every time. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,punkfokrocker Date: 11 Sep 14 - 10:35 AM ....just poppin' in for a few moments after nearly a week's self imposed exile from the distractions of the internet...... [real life elderly parent stuff to take care of..] Bach ???.. ok fair do's... so why not try to manoeuvre wobbly thread drift into 'thread relevance'... Wendy / Walter Carlos - "Switched-On Bach" it's almost getting on for 50 years now.... "A publicist for Colombia Masterworks said at the time, "Employing a repertoire of works by Bach for this unique recording, makes sense." "The composer sometimes wrote without specific instruments in mind, being more concerned with the actual musical lines." As a result, the Moog synthesizer may be considered a valid musical instrument. More accurately it might be said to carry the listener beyond the limits of conventional instruments toward a new universe of sounds. Summing the emergence of the Moog synthesizer, Benjamin Folkman (Carlos' associate and musicologist) stated in the liner notes for the album: "Like any musical instrument, it has extraordinary capabilities and maddening limitations. Playing it beautifully requires as much skill, practice, talent and taste as playing any instrument beautifully, plus the need of a composer's ear for new and different sounds." The rest as they say, is history!" |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 11 Sep 14 - 10:46 AM 100 |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Don Firth Date: 11 Sep 14 - 08:13 PM "Don, you had the misfortune to be at college during a bad period for Baroque historical scholarship. People only started sorting Bach's attributions and chronology out properly after you left. This is not "nitpicking" and it isn't conspiracy theory either, it's mainstream musicology." And exactly when was this "Dark Ages" of Baroque historical scholarship that existed when I was at college (one college, one conservatory, some years apart)? AT THE TIME it was noted in class that there were those who claimed that J. S. Bach was all written by Dietrich Buxtehude—or Pachelbel—or that the Toccata and Fugue in D minor was written by Felix Mendelssohn, trying to trade on Bach's reputation. Many such conspiracy theories were noted as being bruited about by people with, apparently, nothing better to do. Jack, I'm certainly not going to accept what you are asserting on the basis of an article in Wikipedia claiming that Bach did not write Bach—NOR do I accept your accusation that my music professors were wrong and did not know what they were talking about—without some pretty authoritative and convincing information from several highly authoritative and reliable sources. If you can cite some of these authoritative and reliable sources of this wondrous new scholarship so I may update my antediluvian musical education, I will read them with great interest. To claim that a toccata is not a toccata or a fugue is not a fugue…. These are patent asininities that can be refuted simply by examining the music itself without having to know who wrote it. That's like looking at paintings and claiming that a portrait is not a portrait or a still-life is not a still-life. I alluded to Marlowe and Shakespeare above. I have found a couple of different web sites—including an entry in Wikipedia—citing "evidence" that Shakespeare did not write Shakespeare. Marlowe seems to be the favorite among the conspiracy theorists, although there are a number of other candidates. In a Shakespeare class I had in the English Lit. Department, these conspiracy theories were duly note. The professor, after discussing some of the allegations, remarked that at least it kept the conspiracy theorists off the streets.... [Emotional principle of conspiracy theorist: "I know the hidden truth! YOU are a hopeless DUPE!" A crutch for a lame ego!] Be it duly noted that NONE OF THE ABOVE, be it accurate history or pure blather, invalidates the point I'm making in my post at 09 Sep 14 - 08:27 PM. Scroll back up, read my post, and try to understand what I said. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Jack Campin Date: 11 Sep 14 - 08:55 PM If you can cite some of these authoritative and reliable sources of this wondrous new scholarship so I may update my antediluvian musical education, I will read them with great interest. There are plenty of references in the Wikipedia piece. That's what Wikipedia is for. I was familiar with these arguments before Wikipedia existed, though. And the more I hear it the less like Bach it sounds to me. (I kinda fancy having a go at the solo alto recorder arrangement by Aldo Bova - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odko2FccBo0 - in many ways it's an improvement on the organ version because it leaves unnecessary notes out, the harmony is just as clear when left implicit). |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Don Firth Date: 11 Sep 14 - 09:58 PM Jack, I will check the references--and a couple of my music professors who are still around, plus a couple of new people I know. They're not the kind of people who get left behind. BUT--that still does not invalidate my point. In fact, the recorder link reinforces it. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Don Firth Date: 11 Sep 14 - 11:39 PM Jack, I took another look at the Wikipedia article that you linked to claiming that Bach did not write "Toccata and Fugue in D minor," and noticed that at the top of the article, large red letters that read" "We need your help documenting history." This notation is posted when Wikipedia considers the following entry as questionable. And scrolling down, one finds a box enclosing the following request: "This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed." Apparently Wikipedia considers the article "iffy"—and asks for verification of the assertions. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: MGM·Lion Date: 11 Sep 14 - 11:47 PM All these tedious conspiracy theories of authorship [Bach/Buxtehude, Shax/Bacon/Marlowe &c] were hash-settled IMO by Mark Twain when he wrote "The works of Homer were not written by Homer, but by another man of the same name living at the same time" -- altho, oddly enough & despite that, Twain was a leading Baconian... ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Don Firth Date: 12 Sep 14 - 12:59 AM But the problem with that, squiggleMsquiggle, is that Bacon was actually written by Shakespeare.... And you wouldn't believe what was going on between F. Scott Fitzgerald and Ernest Hemingway! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 12 Sep 14 - 02:34 AM And when Billy Bragg wrote the first lines of New England, Paul Simon shouted "Oy! Now then twat!..., oh, its tribute. Gee etc." |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: MGM·Lion Date: 12 Sep 14 - 03:28 AM Why should that be a "problem", Don? Tho I never heard of old Will writing "Bacon"; are you thinking of "Ham(let)", by any chance? Best of squiggles 2U |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 12 Sep 14 - 08:30 AM dear oh dear... whatever next.. will all these expert musicologists be telling us "The Archies" never wrote "Sugar, Sugar" !!!??? "Josie And The Pussycats" and "The Banana Splits" never wrote their immortal theme songs !!!??? "The Monkees" were actually a real band and not chimps dressed up in latex face mask 'human' costumes... .. when will all earth shattering crackpot conspiracies ever end.......??????? |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 12 Sep 14 - 08:36 AM oh yeah.. almost forgot... "acoustic versus electric !!!???" "The purpose of this column is to prove that acoustic players have more prestige than electric guitarists. Here are some reasons why people who play acoustic guitar deserve more respect than electric guitar players. 01. Acoustic guitarists must keep the rhythm of the song going throughout. A lot of electric guitarists pull out solos and no one knows what's going on or whether or not it's being played correctly. Electric guitarists can afford mistakes on stage whereas acoustic guitarists can not. 02. The sound of an acoustic guitar is delicate and precise and pleasing to the appreciative ear. I have heard bands playing electric with the distortion turned up so damn high you can even tell what chords are being played. 03. There are a lot of great songs out there that can be played solely on an acoustic guitar without the backup of a band. You cannot perform a solo electric number nearly as well as a solo acoustic performance. Examples of this are Chet Atkins, James Taylor and Tommy Emmanuel. Acoustic guitar sounds much better. 04. The great acoustic players such as Tommy and Chet are good role models for the kids and are (or in Chets case were) good standup decent members of society. Electric guitar role models such as Jimmy Hendrix advocate the use of drugs and alcohol which demeans us as the guitar playing community. 05. You don't need an amplifier to play an acoustic guitar. You can sit on your bed playing without disturbing anyone and listen to the beautiful sound. You never heard of the neighbours complaining about an acoustic guitarist playing too loud. I believe I have illustrated my point sufficiently to prove it. Comments are welcomed." Nostin - 06/18/2004 - "ultimate-guitar.com" |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: PHJim Date: 12 Sep 14 - 10:11 AM punkfolkrocker, An electric guitar does not have to be played with "the distortion turned up so damn high". It doesn't need "the back-up of a band". While Joe Pass was a drug addict, he spent the last few decades of his life sober. Joe Pass Merle Travis Ed Bickert |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 12 Sep 14 - 10:33 AM PHJim - yeah I know... I was quoting a hilariously contentious guitar forum thread OP 'Nostin', I found through random googling yesterday... |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 12 Sep 14 - 12:23 PM It gave me a giggle too.. Hank Marvin is as clean, well mannered and sober as you can get. Bert Jansch could drink you under a table, and once did when we booked him and he stayed over with us. Jimi Hendrix demeaning the "guitar community..." Priceless. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Keef Date: 12 Sep 14 - 04:45 PM Not just talking about electric guitars but about amplification in general. LEVELS...it's all about levels! Just because you can go to ELEVEN doesn't mean you have to! Even a small amplifier has enough power to turn the audience into GOLDFISH! mouthing the words to the chorus but being impotently inaudible. Compare that to the audience in a village hall or church where every voice gets the chance to add to the glorious harmonies! Please....just TURN IT DOWN A BIT....... Later on in the evening if everyone wants to get up and boogie,,,, CRANK UP THE VOLUME!!! ROCK AND ROLL!! |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Keef Date: 12 Sep 14 - 04:53 PM Whoops, I'm not suggesting that you go to church (I'm a devout atheist) but I do like the acoustics of the buildings. Public toilets have nice acoustics too but they smell bad and you might meet some strange people there! |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: olddude Date: 12 Sep 14 - 04:58 PM Only music the troll jack campin can make is a fart in the bathtub.. Ignore the ass Acoustic or electric in the right hands and right song is always a pleasure. And so is a banjo |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Jack Campin Date: 12 Sep 14 - 06:24 PM Let's hear it for Cornelius Heinrich Dretzel: http://www.jonathanbhall.com/dretzel.html Not the only candidate - Kellner was the favourite when I first heard about these doubts - but that's a pretty persuasive stylistic point. And in the process Hall seems to have revived a nearly-forgotten piece well worth reviving. (He credits Isolde Ahlgrimm with the first step in the identification - never very well known in the UK, she was a terrific harpsichordist; an EP of a Bach harpsichord concerto by her with Erich Fiala was one of the first records I ever bought, and I've still got it). And we can add Davey Graham to the list of acoustic guitarists with electric habits. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Don Firth Date: 12 Sep 14 - 06:46 PM Sounds about right. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,John P Date: 12 Sep 14 - 06:57 PM A friend of mine had an acoustic guitar with a pickup under the saddle. He attached another transducer directly to the back of the soundboard. He took the output from the saddle pickup, ran it through his effects pedals, and back to the soundboard transducer. The result was an acoustic guitar with distortion, delay, chorus, etc. The sound was produced completely by the soundboard of the guitar vibrating, just like any other acoustic guitar, and at the same volume -- no amp, no external speakers. Acoustic or electric? I'm amused by all the comments about electric guitars being bad because they are played too loud. This is the fault of insensitive musicians, not the type of instrument they are using. Amps have volume knobs, and electric guitars can be played substantially more quietly than acoustics and still sound good. There are also lots of insensitive acoustic players who drown out other instruments. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 13 Sep 14 - 02:57 AM Dan, I was with you, musically speaking, till you got as far as "banjo." The output on my variax, which is very much electric, includes a number of established acoustic guitar waveforms, including Gibson Hummingbird and Martin D45. Kind of screws the argument for me. Also, my Gretsch can easily handle finger picking. So I think people are confusing source with volume here. Acoustic guitar vs accordion? Bagpipes? F#*%!g banjo? |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Sep 14 - 03:31 AM in a straight fight between a Gibson j200 and a black Taiwanese telecaster.. The American looks out of condition and carrying a bit too much weight despite its undeniable class. I'd say with a vox ac30 in its corner, the black guy looks unbeatable at this stage. musket - i never doubted you for a minute, as Private Fraser said. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: MGM·Lion Date: 13 Sep 14 - 05:08 AM Don't knock banjos. I am very fond of mine, which came to me quite by chance as a dear friend inherited it from his father who had picked it up years ago as part of a sale lot and had no use for it & let me have it for £10, & I taught myself to do a bit with it. I like its tone, & find it pleasurable to play, & find it appropriate for many of the songs in my rep. Hear it on my youtube channel. & for crying out loud, forswear prescriptiveness -- it's the 8th Deadly Sin! ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Sep 14 - 09:45 AM I grew up as one of the 1970s 'punk rock' generation. A cultural 'movement' well noted for irreverently debunking received wisdoms and myths, and striving to demystify and democratize the means of art/cultural production... So I'll just add.... [ and if I can do this, anybody could...] With a reasonable quality low priced solid body guitar and a minimum of affordable & easily portable battery powered equipment [ie. fits in a small sportsbag or shoulderbag] an electric guitarist can now create a full range of 'convincing' classic vintage, and even the heaviest metal, rock tones at less than normal conversational speaking levels of volume. Yes.. that's right.. punk and metal guitar tones that can be drowned out by the noise of an average irritating drunk windbag over-opinionated pub bore... |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Sep 14 - 11:05 AM ... and I know I've mentioned these somewhere here in the last couple of years... VOX APACHE electric travel guitars https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE-JCdRIxr8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAtd0slsqH8 |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Sep 14 - 11:26 AM the international language of music........ ..a quiet intimate informal Japanese elecoustic blues session... can you turn the guitar up, you're speaking too loud.. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Musket Date: 13 Sep 14 - 11:30 AM I have a banjo myself and for that matter, have another one on approval as I might buy it. My comments still stand. No. Seriously.. I can (and have done on many occasion) listen to a good player such as BanjoRay (we haven't seen for a while in The Mowbray Ray!) and I love to thrash out a tune myself when inclined (horizontally..) But we are comparing two branches of the most influential, versatile and accomplished instruments ever here. Leave plucking a pigskin to Hamie and the Four Skins. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST Date: 14 Sep 14 - 06:36 AM One session I used to attend had banjo's, fiddles, mando's, bazouki and guitars by the dozen, mostly thrashing around to interminable jigs and reels, sometimes even in differant keys, and I thought a bit of bass might help. But, my electric bass wasn't really welcome, "this is an acoustic session" I was haughtily informed - so I took my sousaphone. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: olddude Date: 14 Sep 14 - 05:58 PM I just inherited a cello have no idea what to do but I may get a book maybe fun but I will suck for a long time |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST Date: 14 Sep 14 - 06:10 PM my partner plays cello, violin and clarinet (not at the same time) and we regularly play at folk and acoustic sessions - at the previously mentioned "this is an acoustic session" she was informed that her clarinet wasn't traditional! And people wonder why some folk clubs struggle to survive! |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Jack Campin Date: 14 Sep 14 - 06:57 PM interminable jigs and reels Describing the repertoire of the session that way suggests that the problem they had might have been with your lack of understanding of the music rather than with your instrument. Electric basses are usually welcome in otherwise-acoustic sessions, most people know the volume knob doesn't have be up at 11. But it does usually require conscious thought to get them to fit in with guitar chordings, particularly if the guitarists are doing more adventurous stuff like Willie Johnson Shetland style. The one time I've been in a session with a regular bass player, she worked off written charts for a couple of years. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: Don Firth Date: 14 Sep 14 - 07:21 PM Clarinet may not be traditional in the Shetlands, on the Isle of Man, or the Scilly Isles, but it IS tradition in Klezmer music. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,Bloody amazing Date: 14 Sep 14 - 08:18 PM TRUE musicians listen to what is going on around them. I have just attended a concert where 1 accompanist drowned out the vocalists 1 by 1 whilst the other accompanist listened and supported his singers. They played on the same acoustic grand piano. Whether electric or acoustic is irrelevant - it is HOW it is used. Lead guitarists in particular -Take note. |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,kendall Date: 15 Sep 14 - 07:39 AM "If it sounds good, it IS good." If it doesn't.... |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: MGM·Lion Date: 15 Sep 14 - 07:58 AM Ah, now don't forget Mark Twain's assertion that "Wagner's music is better than it sounds"! ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: acoustic versus electric !!!??? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 15 Sep 14 - 08:29 AM BBC news... "The electric guitar has overtaken the violin in a list of most popular musical instruments for children to play, says a music exam board. Top instruments 2014 Keyboard 30% Piano 28% Recorder 28% Classical guitar 20% Drum kit 14% Electric Guitar 13% Violin 12% Percussion 6% Bass Guitar 5%" Electric guitar overtakes violin in music lesson boom The article goes on to emphasise the extent to which lack of education funding and low income inhibits children from less well off families from learning to play any instruments. |
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