BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger

Subject: BS: A new form of discrimination?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 10:34 AM

I have read recently in features and reports on discrimination that red-headed children nowadays find themselves victims of hostility at school and among their peer groups. In my own long-since schooldays, and my own teaching career which ended nearly 30 years ago, I remember a redhead or two in pretty well every form or set or group; but I have no recollection of much more notice being taken than the convention of calling them "Ginger", just as anyone called Clark would get called "Nobby" as a matter of routine. So when did this unfortunate new form of discrimination come about?; and why? Any redheaded Catter any recollection of being thus picked on? Or anyone have experience of observing it? Or got children who have suffered from it? Or knows anyone who has?

Or has it always gone on and I have been missing something?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination?
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 10:43 AM

A rural American expression goes, "treated like a redheaded stepchild." That is, badly, like an unloved child.

Other than that, I've never observed the least special notice taken of redheaded children or adults.

BTW, generic nicknames like "Ginger" and "Nobby" are not used in this country. I believe they would be considered demeaning and insulting.

The only exception that comes to mind is 1950s baseball star "Dusty" Rhodes.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination?
From: Musket
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 11:08 AM

Ginger jokes have always been around in one way or another. Sadly, like many things, the idea is taken out of all proportion.

it isn't that long really since the Harry Potter films started but a joke I used to tell on stage and in clubs then wouldn't be advisable now, and that wasn't that long ago..

"Harry Potter? It's all fantasy! Who ever heard of a ginger kid with two friends?"

My very ginger nephew told it me for that matter.

In The Week this week, there is a small article where as a joke, some lads had a "ginger discount" card made for their friend for his birthday. The joke is all round because quite a few shops in his town have been honouring the 10% discount...

A good mate of mine wrote a song many years ago about being chatted up by a gay bloke. It "went viral" in the folk clubs and everybody loved the song. The pub where the event "took place" indeed did have a corner where a few gay men met for a drink and after hearing of the song, had a plaque made for their corner with the song inscribed on it.

Somehow, laughing at difference and hatred can get mixed up, and that is one good reason why I never ever give quarter to bigots, racists, homophones or Sheffield Utd fans.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 11:14 AM

Well, my wife agrees with me that she has been recognised as a cripple by local Council, having been awarded a Blue Badge!!!

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 11:16 AM

So when did this unfortunate new form of discrimination come about?

It didn't. Children make fun of each other for any and every reason they can think of. 'Twas always thus.

and why?

Due to someone's overheated imagination.

Another mountain created out of a molehill.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: olddude
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 11:32 AM

I think red headed women are hotter than a summer day in death Valley... Love em

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: gnu
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 11:56 AM

Ginger.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 12:00 PM

"generic nicknames like "Ginger" and "Nobby" are not used in this country. I believe they would be considered demeaning and insulting."
.,,.
Really. One knows from, eg Twain {Pud'nhead Wilson} & Runyon [passim] that nicknames are a part of your culture in certain circles & circumstances. How strange that they should be considered "demeaning & insulting" among schoolchildren. Ours have a battery of such -- some conventional, like "Nobby" Clark, some from physical attributes, like Ginger, Tich for the small, Lofty for the tall, & so forth. Not only in schools, of course; but in teams, the services, &c.

Ian -- was 'homophones' above in the list of those to whom you give no quarter, a joke or a typo? I think we should be told.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 12:13 PM

Is it really a bigger thing than "blond jokes" and the associated stereotypes?

My family has quote a few individuals with red hair, and I dont recall any issues arusing locally?

My red-haired niece once old me that whike she was on a vacation in Jamaca many of the local men seemed to be facinated by her hair-some asking to touch it. However, the light skin has caused some sun exposure issues. A few relatives have associated freckles which is always fodder for summertime jokes, when they are dominant.

Overly curly red hair possibly is a challenge, as it may be with other colours.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 12:39 PM

I remember while growing up that red hair was associated with a hot temper. I doubt there is such a correlation in reality.

The other day a foreign-born friend told me that in her culture where most people have straight hair, curly hair is considered a flaw, a warning sign of possible corruption or a touch of demons inside...

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 12:40 PM

Never noticed any until an auburn-haired friend in Ireland went brunette. Beautiful hair on a beautiful woman.

As for US nicknames: I grew up with guys nicknamed Birdwatcher, Moose, Fats, Jap (nisei), Dutch (German-American), Red, Mick, Fats, Rolf, Froggy, Bobber (from his swimming style), Fartsniffer. And this doesn't even begin to touch on the Army!

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 12:50 PM

Not always good news though - the African tendency to sacrifice Albinos extends in some areas to red-heads, and dates back to Egyptian times, so it's not as new as the OP thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: bobad
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 12:57 PM

I know a Norbert whose nickname is "Nobby" but have never heard of the "Nobby" Clark association. Where does that derive from?

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 01:03 PM

The only exception that comes to mind is 1950s baseball star "Dusty" Rhodes.

Well, there's Woodrow Wilson "Red" Sovine......

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 01:09 PM

Mountains and molehills?
Some children do suffer bullying and ridicule for their hair colour.
They feel it as deeply as any child laughed at for something different about their body.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 01:17 PM

Bobad -- Nobby is the absolutely standard nickname for anyone called Clark here. You will find a Wikipedia entry simply headed "Nobby" offering various explanations.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 01:19 PM

M, "Pudd'nhead Wilson" and "Harry the Horse" are fictional characters.

"Pudd'nhead" is clearly mocking (it means he's an idiot). As for Harry, it is true that career criminals tend to give each other jocular nicknames (at least according to news reports).

What is more interesting is that when I was a lad, people (mostly men) were frequently referred to by standard hypocoristic nicknames (like Jim for James, Jack for John, Chuck for Charles).

In recent decades that practice seems to have declined noticeably, possibly because there are more people whose birth-certificate names really are Jim or Jack or Chuck.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: mayomick
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 01:26 PM

It could come from Ireland , MGM. Red headed kids "carrot tops" can get a terrible time here .There's a superstition associated with the mysterious appearance of a red head child when neither the father or mother are redheads that they are born "on the wrong side of the bed". In the music hall song Salonika one woman sings: "Me husbands in Salonika I wonder if he's dead" Another woman replies mockingly: "I wonder if he knows he's got a kid with a foxy head"

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Musket
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 01:29 PM

Homophone? Methinks another name for the pink oboe... Freudian dear boy.

If it is not PC enough to refer to red headed people, two songs in my repertoire are buggered..

My red headed mot from Ringsend. (Learned during my days working in Dublin where a young lady from said district took my attentions, as Michael would have it said.)

1952 Vincent Black Lightning. Possibly one of the most wonderful songs the blessed RT ever wrote, and a contender for the best song I know...

As I said before, kids will be kids and differences are picked up on regardless. The problem with bigots is that they sometimes prevent us to from enjoying differences by using them for reasons of hate, having never quite grown up. My Dad died when I was small and some kids taunted me and started kicking me for having a dead Dad, till I grabbed the biggest of them and kicked the crap out of him. I was caned for that... You get over it, live with it and once you get older accept it adds to life's experiences.

On the ginger front, the one that got away was of said ilk... Wrote more songs about her than any other subject.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 01:38 PM

Luckly, "Ginger" got away and free- versus, being sacrificed to the questionable desires of Count von Musket:)

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Musket
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 01:45 PM

I prefer to think she cries herself to sleep every night...

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 01:58 PM

Some children do suffer bullying

Ya think, FKWT?

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 02:14 PM

My grandmother once showed me an envelope with a large swatch of her hair which was cut in about 1895. It was very red... not the 'bright orange' that is so eye catching, but a deeper, lovely golden red. My father was often called "Red" by co-workers.. but he was balding & turning gray by the time I was old enough to be aware of it.
   And my hair was called 'auburn' by many and just 'red' my others for many years.... and in just the right light you can still see faint hints of it in the gray. Same with my younger brother. (My mother's family doesn't seem to have had and redheads, so mine was less obvious than my grandmothers.)

So far as I can remember, none of us ever had negative attitudes expressed about our hair, and I don't remember any kids in school with red hair having problems.

I 'suspect' that hair color was linked in some cultures to those whose political or cultural leanings was at odds with their own. In the UK, that might be more common, but in the US, it was sort of standard to see all varieties. (I suppose that in the 19th century, immigrants were commonly rated by physical characteristics )


and I never heard of hair being called 'ginger' before now... *shrug*

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 02:32 PM

The punch line of the popular Gold Rush song, "Joe Bowers" (written about 1854) is that the clearly illegitimate baby had "red hair."

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Musket
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 02:34 PM

An aside but totally accurate, true and no embellishments.

I used to have a ginger dog, a mongrel, but with a lot of border collie and something ginger in him.

Down the road, a man kept a Rottweiler bitch who he wanted to lend to a stud etc to make good money out of the pups. She duly became pregnant.

I wish to point out that my dog did not, to our knowledge know how to escape the back garden. By deduction, the would be breeder reckoned there was only one ginger dog locally.

One day, he came to our door with a box full of puppy Rottweilers. Looked the pedigree in every way, except the colour.

I had to slam the door as he was swinging back to land me one.

Never saw him again mind. My eldest told his lad I expected the pick of the litter, which must have gone down like a pork chop in a mosque.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: olddude
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 02:42 PM

What ever you want to call them that beautiful redhead in 1973 rocked my world all night. Greatest one nighter in my history. Aww memories like the corners of my mind da da da however the song goes

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 02:48 PM

"M, "Pudd'nhead Wilson" and "Harry the Horse" are fictional characters.~"

... in realistic fiction, not fantasy.

I still find it inconceivable that your schoolchildren never use nicknames to or of one another..

They can be formed in all sorts of ways -- your "Chuck", as a conventional form of Charles -- unknown here, where it would be Charlie as in Chaplin; unlike Peppermint Patty's name for Charlie Brown -- ah so you have Charlie too: & how about "Peppermint Patty" then, eh?   Schulz just imagined the possibility a girl really called that, did he?, because Peanuts is fiction? Now come on, Lighter, of course your children use nicknames. It absolutely defies cred that they don't. Or that their use would be regarded as == wot woz it now == "demeaning & insulting". Boy, you kids must demean & insult awful easy!

I was "Jerry" at school, BTW, as was my father before me. "Jerry Myer". Geddit!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 03:04 PM

I didn't say "never." I said the practice has noticeably declined.

And I also made an exception for individuals like Harry the Horse.

The city I grew up in was well known to Damon Runyon, and I never met a child (not to mention an adolescent or a grownup) who was called by any sort of descriptive nickname like "Puddinghead." ("You shithead!" was common enough, but it was no nickname.) I recall one boy with a big nose who was known for a few minutes as "Pinocchio" before he set things right.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: gnu
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 03:30 PM

I was teased as a lad for being ginger. I ignored or laughed it off. But, par for the course, playground bullies would then tease me for such, calling me a 'chicken' for not standing up to the teasing. Sad for them they didn't understand my heritage. The redhead teasing was fine. The aspersions upon my character were responded to as any immature Irish boy would respond... by making red noses.

It's all part of growing up.

Hehehehee. I was working in Wabush, Labrador about 30 years ago. Rented a house trailer for myself and my supervising crew. My engaged came to visit for a week and, upon collecting her at the airport and driving her to the trailer, we encountered about 30 children playing on a street. ALL were blondes or redheads or of some same mix. Herself, with jet black hair and dark complexion, was rather surprised. It took me aback as I had never noticed it before that.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 03:38 PM

I was teased a bit for my pale skin & freckles which went with my reddish hair.... but the only name I was ever called was by some boy I didn't know, at the city swimming pool.

"Hey look", he said o his friend, " how white that guy is.. Hey, Whitey!" I didn't look at him or answer. I spent most of my youth either being sunburned or ...mostly...staying in the shade.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: fat B****rd
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 04:57 PM

Growing up in Grimsby/Cleethorpes it was par for the course for anyone with red/ginger hair to be called "Ginger". There was never any malice intended. Maybe it was the "Biggles" connection. But, not long ago two girls from the High School near where I live walked past me talking about that "Ginger Bitch". And it didn't sound merely descriptive. There IS a certain prejudice, maybe it's purely juvenile, regarding people with red/ginger hair. "Carrot-top " was another non-malicious term I recall.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 05:17 PM

I don't quite understand that Ginger and Carrot Top and the like are not meant to be derogatory - surely their use is not meant to be complimentary?

I have heard carrot top referred to in an descriptive way but I have never heard it as a nickname. For instance, there is supposedly a performer in the US whose name/nickname/stage name is Carrot Top. I have never heard him perform so I know very little about him- anyway, I was surprised a few years ago the first time I heard of him referred to in that way.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 05:40 PM

Nobby? One of a number of Navy nicknames associated with particular surnames and nothing more.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: olddude
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 05:47 PM

Flame was used in my school

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: gnu
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 06:16 PM

Carrot Top.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: JennieG
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 06:33 PM

In Oz redheads are often called "Blue" - which indignity I, fortunately, have never suffered. But when I was about 10YO a teacher in my brothers' primary school used to ball me "Ginger pink", which I hated with a passion......but in those far-off days adults had all the power and children had to suffer it.

Red hair runs in my family - my father had red hair, there were several red-headed cousins on his side of the family. It may have come from Scotland in the early 1840s with my g-g-grandparents. Or it may have come from Ireland at about the same time......or perhaps the convict ancestor from Wales, much earlier.......

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 09:43 PM

My newspaper had an article about prejudice against red hair in Europe. People spoke of being spat on in the street for having red hair. One man said he had left England and moved to America because of it.

Comb folklore and literature, and you will find references that show that red hair is not favored. Prejudice against redheads is not new.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 12:49 AM

Interesting responses. I still aver I never came across any such prejudice in my schooldays or army service, &c. Can you give any specific folkloric or literary refs, leeneia? See my comments below on the William books -- which I believe, from past experience of responses to having made them the subject of one of a series of parodies I published in Folk Review in the 1970s, of literature with an interpolated folk backgrounds [Sherlock Holmes investigating a folk club murder &c], that William books are not well-known in US, tho always v popular with children here, with several radio & tv series based on them.

Ebbie -- neither complimentary nor offensively-intended: just neutrally conventional names. Readers of the William books by Richmal Crompton will recall that the eponymous hero's best friend was always, & only, called Ginger, tho this was presumably not his baptismal name but resulting from his hair colour as it appeared in Thomas Henry's illustrations. It is presented as just his name, as the other members of the "Outlaws" gang are called Douglas and Henry. There appears to be neither favourable nor pejorative overtone to it: simply his name, by which everyone calls him, including parents, elder bro, & so on.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 12:56 AM

BTW -- the actress with the stage name of Ginger Rogers was a blonde, not a redhead. Her nickname came from her own family thru a young relative who could not pronounce her actual name which was Virginia.

The exceedingly popular Rita Haywarth, OTOH, embraced red hair which was by no means her natural colour. Didn't seem to affect her career adversely, even outside USA!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 12:57 AM

Hayworth, sodit!

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 01:09 AM

Re post above about the girls heard referring to a school rival as a "ginger bitch"; I think this rather implies that they would have been using any obvious attribute of hers as a stick to beat her with, rather than displaying universal prejudice towards all possessors of that attribute.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 03:17 AM

Mike, the MGM, I accept that you use(d) the descriptive name without malice or ill will of any kind. Can you be certain that the recipient receives it as such?

Reminds me too much of calling an overweight kid 'Fatty' or a lame person 'Clubby' or a virtually challenged person 'Shorty' or one with thin hair 'Baldy' or a kid with a large nose 'Schnoz'. Are you sure it doesn't sting?

I take back the 'Shorty' one. I knew a kid in school who, although not remarkably short, answered to Shorty and introduced himself as such. His real name was Carroll. Maybe that was why?

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 04:02 AM

I don't think, Ebbie, that I myself ever have actually used "Ginger" in addressing anyone; though I have had school friends, army friends &c, who were always called Tich or Lofty by everyone and never raised any objection. But I OPd this thread, not to justify any actual usage of my own, but simply to comment on a phenomenon that I had increasingly seen reported of late, but ran counter to my own observations & experience; so I was soliciting others' opinions or experiences.

Re Lighter's views of American usages & attitudes [reminded by a bit of Ebbie's post]: what about Jimmy Durante's familiar nickname?

Distressing extract from the Mail, Guest; but what the supposed relevance?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 04:47 AM

When my mother was growing up in Liverpool in the 1920's, the kids in the street would curse anyone who crossed them with:

      May all your sons have wooden legs and all your daughters have red hair

Clearly, having red hair was seen as an impediment amongst the children she played with. I suspect, though I have no evidence, that it might have been related to the large Irish population of Liverpool.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Musket
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 06:57 AM

When I was an apprentice, you had to put up with a nickname growing on you and that seemed to serve you throughout your career down the pit. The only ones who managed a new nickname were if they went prematurely grey, in which case, they were called Snowy.

There were many "Ginger" names, and as many electricians and fitters worked as a team, a Ginger's mate tended to be referred to as Fred. Some were more clever; one lad looked like a character from a Butlins TV advert from the '70s. UK catters may recall two blue spacemen called Toot and Floot on the adverts. Having decided that this bloke looked like their long lost brother, he was called Bloot throughout his career....

There were a few men with the nickname Tosser, and answered to it without irony. (A name given to those for whom as apprentices, didn't manage to either run fast enough or fight hard enough when confronted with the Swarfega initiation.)

I was Musket, as this came over from school days, although for a while, after I refused to carry a huge cable with me, demanding it went by haulage instead, the name No Arms stuck for quite a while. I was lucky, Mr Softy, Higgy Quickspunker and Follow Through kept their names indefinitely..

I had left the pit for nearly twenty years when my eldest started his apprenticeship there, and I was delighted to see that those whom had transferred to his pit when ours shut had kept their nicknames...

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 08:05 AM

I think I only ever came across one overt discriminator, an elderly music teacher in primary who took an instant dislike to one lad, sent him to the rear, and encouraged him to play up just so she could punish him. Character-building, I think she called it. Fortunately she retired after a year or she might have ended up murdered, the lad had a real shrunken head from his dad's days in the Diplomatic Service in Borneo.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: bubblyrat
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 09:05 AM

It is a strange phenomenon indeed . I once had a "party" ( nautical for girlfriend ) who had the most beautiful, natural, blonde hair, BUT ....I shall of course say no more ,except that Nicholas Monserrat wrote about something similar in one of his books ( Three Corvettes , I think ).

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 09:30 AM

Just because red hair is stigmatized in a few rather uncommon folk sayings is no proof that there is now (or even was) a significant societal prejudice against it.

To add to the mix, in Joyce's "Ulysses" (1922), Buck Mulligan (inspired by Joyce's friend, the brilliant Dr. Oliver St. John Gogarty) observes that "Redheaded women buck like goats."

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Musket
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 09:39 AM

?

Collars & cuffs, bubblyrat?

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: mayomick
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 11:13 AM

not conclusive evidence, Lighter .But do you think Irish people who say that there is or has been a certain level of societal prejudice against red heads in Ireland are making it up? It's nothing to boast about after all."How the Irish invented prejudice"

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: mayomick
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 12:36 PM

My red head niece had terrible behavioral problems up until she was six or seven when her parents brought her to the doctor in exasperation. It just so happened that their family doctor turned out to be an expert on "problem" children. He told them that the hot- temper stereotype isn't completely without basis ; you have to take into account that red heads are often more sensitive physically -their skin particularly-   and that this often manifests as touchiness on the part of the deveoping child

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: JennieG
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 06:15 PM

It is my opinion that there are two types of people in this world......those of us who are natural redheads, and those who wish they were. Witness the number of people who resort to the dye pot.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 06:22 PM

Oh for crying out loud, and this is a music forum. Haven't you heard Tim Minchin and the song about the very bad word with an n, 2 g's, an i, an e, and an r? It's called prejudice and I can't find a good version of it online, but it's not about blacks.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 07:31 PM

Making it up? No, if that's what they say.

My point was that the existence of a few phrases without direct evidence of the alleged phenomenon suggests little and proves nothing.

The phrases become significant only if there's real-world evidence. Otherwise the argument is simply circular.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: mayomick
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 06:22 AM

Lighter FFS we're not dealing with the Loch Ness monster. If you can't take my word for it ,this is on wiki.It's not of course conclusive proof of the alleged phenomenon's existence .
Modern-day discriminationn Carrot head" redirects here. For the French novel, see Poil de carotte.
In his book "I Say No" Wilkie Collins (1885) wrote "The prejudice against habitual silence, among the lower order of the people, is almost as inveterate as the prejudice against red hair."
In modern-day UK, the words "ginger" or "ginga" are sometimes used to describe red-headed people (and are at times considered insulting),[60]with terms such as "gingerphobia"[61] and "gingerism"[62] used by the British media. In Britain, redheads are also sometimes referred to disparagingly as "carrot tops" and "carrot heads". (The comedian "Carrot Top" uses this stage name.) "Gingerism" has been compared to racism, although this is widely disputed, and bodies such as the UK Commission for Racial Equality do not monitor cases of discrimination and hate crimes against redheads.[62] A UK woman recently won an award from a tribunal after being sexually harassed and receiving abuse because of her red hair;[63] a family in Newcastle upon Tyne, England, was forced to move twice after being targeted for abuse and hate crime on account of their red hair;[64] and in 2003, a 20-year-old was stabbed in the back for "being ginger".[65] In May 2009, a British schoolboy committed suicide after being bullied for having red hair.[66] The British singer Mick Hucknall, who says that he has repeatedly faced prejudice or been described as ugly on account of his hair color, argues that Gingerism should be described as a form of racism.[67][68]
This prejudice has been satirised on a number of TV shows. The British comedian Catherine Tate (herself a redhead) appeared as a red-haired character in a running sketch of her series The Catherine Tate Show. The sketch saw fictional character Sandra Kemp, who was forced to seek solace in a refuge for ginger people because they had been ostracised from society.[69] The British comedy Bo' Selecta! (starring redhead Leigh Francis) featured a spoof documentary which involved a caricature of Mick Hucknall presenting a show in which celebrities (played by themselves) dyed their hair red for a day and went about daily life being insulted by people. The pejorative use of the word "ginger" and related discrimination was used to illustrate a point about racism and prejudice in the "Ginger Kids", "Le Petit Tourette", "It's a Jersey Thing" and "Fatbeard" episodes of South Park.
In the United States, film and television programmes often portray school bullies as having red hair;[70] for example, Scut Farkus from A Christmas Story, the O'Doyle family in the movie Billy Madison, and Caruso in Everybody Hates Chris. However, children with red hair are often themselves targeted by bullies; "Somebody with ginger hair will stand out from the crowd," says anti-bullying expert Louise Burfitt-Dons.[71]
In Australian slang, redheads are often nicknamed "Blue" or "Bluey".[72] More recently, they have been referred to as "rangas" (a word derived from the red-haired ape, the orangutan), sometimes with derogatory connotations.[73] The word "rufus" has been used in both Australian and British slang to refer to red-headed people;[74] based on a variant ofrufous, a reddish-brown color.
In November 2008 social networking website Facebook received criticism after a 'Kick a Ginger' group, which aimed to establish a "National Kick a Ginger Day" on 20 November, acquired almost 5,000 members. A 14-year-old boy from Vancouver who ran the Facebook group was subjected to an investigation by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police for possible hate crimes.[75]
In December 2009 British supermarket chain Tesco withdrew a Christmas card which had the image of a child with red hair sitting on the lap of Santa Claus, and the words: "Santa loves all kids. Even ginger ones" after customers complained the card was offensive.[76]
In October 2010, Harriet Harman, the former Equality Minister in the British government under Labour, faced accusations of prejudice after she described the red-haired Treasury secretary Danny Alexander as a "ginger rodent".[77] Alexander responded to the insult by stating that he was "proud to be ginger".[78] Harman was subsequently forced to apologise for the comment, after facing criticism for prejudice against a minority group.[79]
In September 2011, Cryos International, one of the world's largest sperm banks, announced that it would no longer accept donations from red-haired men due to low demand from women seeking artificial insemination.[80]
A fourteen-year-old boy in Lincoln, England had his right arm broken and his head stamped on by three men who attacked him in 2013 "just because he had red hair". The three men were subsequently jailed for a combined total of ten years and one month for the attack.[81]

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: mayomick
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 09:16 AM

It's not such a hateful prejudice as racism is - more like the "specky-four-eyes" treatment that schoolkids with glasses used to have to put up with.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 09:26 AM

All I meant was that it's practically axiomatic that you can't draw any broad conclusions about society from the mere existence of some uncommon phrases, though they might suggest a question worth looking into.

Real-world evidence, however, is real-world evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: olddude
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 12:25 PM

Angie Everhart is a friend she was teased and called Dots from her freckles. I wonder what the boys thought when she grew up huh

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 12:54 PM

My father, who had red hair then, suffered chants of "Ginger, ginger, you're barmy" when he was at school. Since (IIRC) he was born in 1906 that makes him even older than Metro-Goldwyn-British-Lion (henceforth "Anglo-American Films").

My daughter, who is a redhead, told me this one. "What do you call two red-heads making love? Gincest".

On the other hand some male ginger-haired people are shatteringly ugly - take Chris Evans, for example - and there is a certain sameness about that strain of gingers, involving rounded potato-lump features. I have not noticed anything similar in female redheads.

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Musket
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 01:13 PM

I dunno Bridge. If I put Chris Evans and your good self in a nightclub, I know who'd get laid first...

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 03:09 PM

Sometimes I despair of my species.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: A new form of discrimination? Red heads/ginger
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 03:32 PM

Just "sometimes"?

What an optimist!