USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 11:28 AM

Could this sort of thing be part of the problem?

It is a perfect illustration of US Black internalized oppression, but that you posted it without removing the offensive language is part of another problem, sawzaw.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 12:06 PM

Who renamed this thread so nambypambily? They aren't lives LOST - they are lives TAKEN. They are DEATHS. They are not "losses" as if it were a game, or as if we didn't know what happened to them. Shame, Mudcat, shame.
And "Police action" pah! That's what we called the Korean WAR and it was a terrible thing to say then too! Whoever remaned this is whitewashing the fact that police are SHOOTING people TO DEATH. Seriously, what has happened to this forum?

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 02:40 PM

Mrr, since I am the OP, any complaints about this thread properly come to me, so I will answer yours. I proposed the retitle to clarify the direction for this thread, and a Mudcat mod made the requested change(s). If you know a better way to say what I said PLUS what you said, and fit it into a thread list, I'm listening.

You are free, as you know, to be the OP of any thread titled however YOU want to title YOURS.

Regarding your reactive rant:
Who renamed this thread so nambypambily? They aren't lives LOST - they are lives TAKEN. They are DEATHS. They are not "losses" as if it were a game, or as if we didn't know what happened to them. Shame, Mudcat, shame.
And "Police action" pah! That's what we called the Korean WAR and it was a terrible thing to say then too! Whoever remaned this is whitewashing the fact that police are SHOOTING people TO DEATH. Seriously, what has happened to this forum?


The point of any memorial is not to scream for the justice, but to remember the lives of the people lost. One goal in this thread (which you have apparently not read by merely reacted to) is taking the view of the whole person these victimized people were, not just the death images paraded through the media.

What has happened to this forum is that reactivity has lost us many good members. (I would remind people of those members who recently died or nearly died, who first stopped posting here on an active basis.)

IMO, there is no shame here, except maybe reactivity as a replacement for actual thought after mature reflection.

Please, take a breath, read my posts in this thread, and then contribute positively.

~Susan
(Who still can't get your ill considered Anne Frank joke out of my head.)

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 09:24 PM

Most of the killing of young black men is by gang warfare. Their problems with the police are largely due to gang culture also.

But the fact that so many black youths choose gang life is a sign of a racist society. They choose gang life because unequal educational and employment opportunity leaves them with little hope for a better option.

Society should correct that, and should take whatever steps are necessary, regardless of cost, to ensure that African-Americans have as much hope and as much stake in civil society as anyone else. Only long-term, deep-seated racism stops us from doing that.

Africans were brought to this country against their will, and were robbed of their culture and families. Nothing has ever been done to compensate for that loss. All other ethnic groups came here with family and cultural ties intact, but we disregard the tremendous importance that plays in human development, and the great advantage all other sub-cultural groups therefore have over African-Americans.

As John Gorka wrote:
If the wind is at your back,
and you never turn around,
you may never know the wind is there;
you may never hear a sound.

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 11:07 PM

Cops' Killer Angry Over Garner Death

A gunman who announced online that he was planning to shoot two "pigs" in retaliation for the chokehold death of Eric Garner ambushed two police officers in a patrol car and shot them to death in broad daylight Saturday before running to a subway station and killing himself, authorities said.

The suspect, Ismaaiyl Brinsley, wrote on an Instagram account: "I'm putting wings on pigs today. They take 1 of ours, let's take 2 of theirs," officials said. He used the hashtags Shootthepolice RIPErivGardner (sic) RIPMikeBrown.

Police said he approached the passenger window of a marked police car and opened fire, striking Officers Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu in the head. The officers were on special patrol in the Bedford-Stuyvesant section of Brooklyn.

http://www.newsmax.com/US/US-NYPD-Officers-Shot/2014/12/20/id/614257/#ixzz3MU9K4Hyw


Bernard Kerik: De Blasio, Sharpton 'Have Blood on Their Hands'

Former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik told Newsmax that Saturday's execution-style shooting of two uniformed police officers was ultimately encouraged by Mayor Bill de Blasio and the Rev. Al Sharpton — and "they have blood on their hands."

"de Blasio, Sharpton and all those who encouraged this anti-cop, racist mentality all have blood on their hands," he said. "They have blood on their hands."

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/kerik-police-killings-nypd/2014/12/20/id/614261/

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 12:13 AM

?What Anne Frank joke? Also, relevance of any of my jokes? Have I made any on this thread?

Also, I remain firm in my belief that the whitewashing of these deaths as losses, and of shootings as actions, takes away from the very tragedy this thread was originally intended. Shame on the whitewashers, I say, but I guess a little more quietly. Still. Really.

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 12:15 AM

Oops the above should have read "intended for" sorry.

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 09:08 AM

"Take your garbage elsewhere, eh Slack-Jaw? "

Why is it my garbage? It is Americas garbage. It is published "music". Why should I edit it?

It is the reality that some people want to ignore. If you ignore it it still exists. Young people listen to this. Does it affect them in any way? Could the existence of this be part of the problem? Why keep it out of the discussion?

Problems are not solved by focusing on one facet. You have to get to the root of the problem.

Does the term Slack-Jaw or Sore Jaw have any meaning other than to try to discredit someone in an ad hominem attack? Ad hominem attacks are not a solution to anything.

"Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. The result of an ad hominem attack can be to undermine someone's case without actually having to engage with it."

So it you want to disprove my statement, why not discuss the statement itself?

For example how is it garbage and why should it be taken elsewhere?

If you notice, I haven't attacked anyone personally.

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 09:21 AM

PS I meant to say why is it my garbage?

More on "tribal thinking":

The Tribal View

On the one hand, a tribal view takes membership in the group as the most important characteristic of an individual. An individual's worth and identity are tied to his or her membership in the group. So, for instance, in Rwanda, it mattered little that a person happened to be a good mother, a faithful wife, a generous member of her community or, simply, a human being. All that mattered in the spring and summer of 1994 was whether she was Hutu or Tutsi. No other characteristic mattered when the Interahamwe attacked.
Additionally, from the tribal perspective, the group itself takes on a kind of mythic existence. Its relationship to other groups may take on the quality of a morality play: a timeless conflict between good and evil. So, from a tribal perspective, even history can be understood only with reference to the group. Current conflicts are often "remembered" as past historical events.

The Enlightenment View

In contrast, an Enlightenment view sees individual rights, rather than group membership, as the basis for an individual's worth and identity. Because these rights are located in individuals, it does not matter whether or not the individual is a member of a majority or minority ethnic group (or any other type of group for that matter).

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 10:15 AM

I would ask Sawzaw's usual pissing-contest partners to leave those posts for my reply as soon as I can get to them. There is some thinking in the posts I would like to address, and I agree that ad hominem attacks are never helpful.

=========================

GUEST 20 Dec 14 - 09:24 PM,

I do not agree that gangs are responsible for deeply internalized white biases that preceded gangs in the US and that have killed people where gang activity is nil. This is why I disagree:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/11/science-of-racism-prejudice?utm_content=buffer71c92&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
herjones.com/politics/2014/11/science-of-racism-prejudice?utm_content=buffer71c92&utm_medium=social&utm_source=tw">The Science of Why Cops Shoot Young Black Men


=========================


GUEST 20 Dec 14 - 11:07 PM,

REMEMBER, not one police officer has been killed since Trayvon Martin was murdered, while several Black men and children have been.

1. I applaud the great restraint exercised since Trayvon Martin's death. Indeed I applaud the great restraint of Blacks since their arrival in the US in captivity, though it pains me to know how much that restraint has cost them and that it arises partly from fear
.
2. I deplore that Black friends are having to shout loudly that they are against the murder of these two officers AS IF they would not OF COURSE have NOT wanted for it to have happened, AS IF they must now share responsibility due to their skin color. This is another example of racism-- the co-opting of news to try to take the attention away from the peaceful and effective protests (multiracial, too) that have been so powerful of late.

~Susan

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 10:32 AM

W y s i w y G "I do not agree that gangs are responsible for deeply internalized white biases..."

No one said that. The post you replied to said that gang culture arises from conditions created by discrimination, not the other way around as you somehow concluded.

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 11:04 AM

I was referring to: Their problems with the police are largely due to gang culture also.

Please expand on how this does not form a basis for my response?

==================

And in case anyone doubts it, I deplore white deaths, too.

~S~

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 11:36 AM

The post was already too long, if you weren't willing to read past the first paragraph. Gang culture is just the latest of a long history of desperate responses to the conditions imposed by racism, but it's the dominant mechanism right now for African-American conflict with the police.

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 12:36 PM

Guest/11:36, the problem with our communication is not that I did notcread or understand all of your post-- much of which I might have said myself, I agreed with it so much. I just don't see what you mean when you say that gang culture is the main issue between US Blacks and police, so I'm asking you to say more so that I might understand.

From my view, gang activity has seldom been involved in the deaths cited. Pethaps the gang issue is a side issue better explored in another thread. (And I'd participate if you started such a thread if you used a consistent handle in it.)

~S~

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 12:56 PM

I would ask Sawzaw's usual pissing-contest partners to leave those posts for my reply as soon as I can get to them.

I don't know if I qualify as one of Slack-Jaw's USUAL partners, but will gladly step aside. "To you, from failing hands we throw the torch: be yours to hold it high." Have fun with the brain-dead asshole.

Just as an aside: why is no-one complaining about "white on white crime"- wich is considerably more prevalent than "B on B".

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST,sawzaw
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 09:13 PM

The medic, who works in Southwest Philadelphia, posted a photo to his personal Instagram account of two black men pointing guns at the head of a white police officer. The accompanying message said: "Our real enemy ... Need 2 stop pointing guns at each other and at the ones that's legally killing us and innocents."