BS: Ebola and the Missionaries

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 01:10 PM

As I posted, lumping all missionary groups together is wrong, since medical missionaries would be included with the religion salesmen.

Has anyone got a list of the main "missionary" groups? How can a mudcat evaluate their efforts without names and details?

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 01:29 PM

Some mission groups who definitely are not needed.

Heartformissions.com, Includes Africa Inland Mission- "Seek to spread the good news of Jesus Christ to the peoples of Africa."

International Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention.

African Christian Mission- from Ghana. No medical branch.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: Musket
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 01:41 PM

The scope of cosmestic surgery is quite well defined, internationally. My point is twofold.

1. If someone wishes to pay for cosmetic surgery, it's their money.

2. What that has to do with ebola is beyond me.

Bugger two. Make it three.

3. Necessary cosmetic surgery gets lumped into the term, which is used then to describe vanity surgery, a small section of cosmetic surgery.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 02:51 PM

I agree that it's their money, but I think it is a less shallow decision to use that money to help medical people stop other people from dying by the thousands of something preventable by medical supplies like gowns and gloves, than to spend your money on having people use those gowns and gloves on you. For beauty.

Vanity surgery is a much better term I hadn't encountered. I did mean to restrict my recommendation to that segment.

Also, calling anything actually medically necessary "cosmetic" smacks of insurance scam to me.

Also, I think a big hospital like the one in my town, if they didn't do vanity surgery for a week, say, would actually be able to donate a respectably large amount to the effort. How about if they did it for the duration of the outbreak? How about if other major hospitals got into the act? A bunch of rich people would have to be satisfied with the bodies they either grew or ate themselves into, and a bunch of well-trained experts in making them prettier would go without excessive fees and probably be fine for a while. Maybe have to give up one of their Mercedes, or clean their own house, or do their own landscaping, what a concept. I know, I know, I'm being silly, but you get the idea.

But back to the actual thread, sorry this is more for the general ebola thread.

I did title this thread "Ebola and the missionaries" as a catchy thread title, but the issue was intended to be (and originally was, fairly well) the question of whether religion/superstitious belief in general is in the way of medical efforts in this outbreak.

The answer seems clearly to be Yes, as well as non-religious distrust of foreigners, especially ex-colonial forces, even if they come bearing gifts. Timeo somebody et dona ferentes is alive and well in West Africa, and who can blame them.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: mg
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 03:57 PM

Some nuns and priests of caritas seem to be doing a great job.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 06:38 PM

Indeed. Many many missionaries and other religious people are there on the ground in the muck and mire doing their best to stop the disease as best they can, and bully for them. (But the ones using science are doing a lot better job than the ones trying to use prayer.)

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 06:46 PM

Cosmetic surgery inc. vanity is performed by a number of specialists with reconstruction of bodily features. That is their field, and they have received extensive training in the surgery involved.
They do not have extensive experience with viral diseases such as Ebola. Are you suggesting that they stop work?

You also seem to be suggesting that their gowns, safety and operating equipment are the same as that used in treatment of Ebola.

Like Musket, I fail to see what the field of cosmetic surgery has to do with treatment of viral diseases.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 07:08 PM

I would assume that their gowns and safety equipment at least are somewhat superior to the old plastic bags on the feet and hands of nurses and/or caretakers of the ill, and the old uniforms they cut up to use as coverings for their head. I suspect if we sent them all our John Edwards for president T shirts that it would also be a vast improvement.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 09:39 PM

Also gauze, tubing, anesthetics, and everything else, and yes, if they stopped doing nose jobs and tummy tucks and boob jobs and facelifts for a week, say, it could divert a HUGE amount of stuff from vanity to necessity. And probably not bankrupt any plastic surgeons/liposuckers/whatever. I'm not suggesting that they stop doing anything necessary, just stuff that only rich people can afford and don't need anyway. Just for a week. Or something concrete.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 12:36 PM

Johnson and Johnson and the other large producers of gauze, tubing, clothing &c are capable of turning out more product than required.

I find the attempted uniting of cosmetic surgery and the Ebola situation is untenable.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 07:08 PM

*sigh* does the forum have a better idea for incentivizing rich people and hospitals to stop wasting desperately needed resources and diverting them to where they are actually so desperately needed?

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 08:06 PM

If there is a bright side to this, it's that Africa and the World at large don't have to depend on this forum for solutions to the Ebola problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 08:14 PM

this forum and a million probably like it are a lifeline..some will read it directly..some might get inspired to donate..some might find a solution through surfing the web, talking to friends, reading the literature. for people in such dire circumstances, in a way they are dependent on this. silence will kill them.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 09:42 PM

Well Mrr what exactly do you want us to do? Us at Mudcat. Not African countries or US policy.... right here. What plan do you want us to join you in.... and how, exactly?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 10:16 PM

Why not do what I've already thought of instead of spending time and energy telling me how it won't work? I've sent the requests to my local newspaper, city council and hospital. Why not do the same? What would it cost us, the Americans, Europeans, and others on this forum? Or, think of something you think would work better. Or might work at all. Maybe this *is* a dumb idea, but it is the only thing I could think of that would directly, instantly and (what is the word for taking only what would otherwise be wasted and nothing being sacrificed since it's only coming from the icing, not the cake) free up medical supplies, which are what are directly and instantly needed.
Personally, I thought it was a clever idea for that exact thing. I still do, but would love to read of a better one. "I don't understand your thinking" isn't a better idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: mg
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 11:03 PM

Send money to doctors without borders, mercy corps etc. If no money encourage others. Sell excess on ebay and donate. Rethink holiday expenses.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 11:38 PM

Right, people are already doing that. I'm also trying to get *medical supplies* re-directed from the wasteful rich to the bleeding crowd.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 12:55 AM

Mrzzy, Hospitals buy those supplies with the money that the "wasteful rich" pay for the "unnecessary procedures". No procedures, no money, no supplies. Get it?

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 02:45 AM

Wow, Stim, are you a plastic surgeon?

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: GUEST,Srim
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 04:16 AM

No, but I am not immune to the obvious. Does NIH know about you?

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: mg
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 11:56 AM

There are groups, religious and.other..they have collected supplies Naand need money for shipment.. Just. Google shipping medical supplies to liberia etc.aa

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 12:52 PM

OK, guest, are you really claiming that without tummytucks, a big hospital like MassGen or Brigham & Women wouldn't have supplies to do emergency appendectomies? Or do you mean that without tummytucks there won't be later supplies for tummytucks, because they've all been sent to where they were more needed? In which case, start doing tummytucks again, I *did* say stop for a week.

I find it an extraordinary claim that stopping vanity surgery for a week would have any negative impact on necessary surgery supplies. I also find the fact that they *do* tummytucks to be evidence that they have more supplies than they need for those appendectomies.

And I repeat, do you have a better idea? Seems from your attempts to be offensively condescending that you just do not like anything I could possibly suggest, rather than actually thinking about the actual idea. Or coming up with a better one to divert the supplies from tummytucks to ebola. That hospitals need to be able to buy more supplies for tummytucks would be a lousy reason to keep doing tummytucks instead of using those supplies on ebola, if that's what you meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: Bettynh
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 12:57 PM

Not missionaries, but Christians with a mission within Liberia are having an effect. This from NPR (I've copied the text since PBS, I know, doesn't get out of the USA and I'm not sure about NPR).

"Night clubs have shut their doors. Soccer leagues have been suspended. And a strict curfew is keeping the streets empty at night.

But there's one place in Monrovia where people continue to gather despite the threat of Ebola: Sunday church service.

Since Ebola broke out in Liberia's capital city, more people have started coming to Sunday service at Trinity Cathedral, says the Very Rev. Herman Browne. And like many priests across Monrovia, Browne has been spreading the word about Ebola prevention through his sermons.

But Browne's message this week was personal. It came from his family's encounter with the virus.

For the past three Sundays, the reverend had been under a volunteer quarantine. This week he returned to the pulpit and explained to his congregation what happened.

It all began when his wife, Trokon Browne, went to see a close friend. "The friend ... broke down, fell on the floor and started to cry," Herman said. "Some illness had returned to her, and she was explaining it to Trokon."

These were warning signs about Ebola. Trokon knew that. But her nurturing instincts kicked in. She embraced and fed her friend anyway.

"I said that was a crazy thing to do," Herman said to his congregation, "because the lady was vomiting and had diarrhea."

Two days later, the Brownes learned that the friend had Ebola.

One of the reasons Ebola continues to spread in Liberia is that people who know they've been exposed to the virus often keep it a secret until they're desperately ill and highly contagious. They fear the embarrassment, the stigma and the prospect of losing their income.

But the Brownes went public.

"I left work immediately, wrapped up everything, called the treasurer, the bishop, my colleagues," Herman said. Then Trokon and Herman quarantined themselves for 21 days.
Even their children were not allowed to come upstairs until the couple knew they did not have Ebola.

Herman said he was hoping his congregation would learn a powerful lesson from his family's experience: "Once you slip mentally, in terms of being aware and conscious, the smallest slip could cause you grave harm," he said after the church service.

That's a message Liberians have heard constantly from the government. But many people in Monrovia say they don't trust the government. They consider it corrupt. So the messages can have more of an impact when they come from a spiritual leader.

Herman Browne began educating his congregation about Ebola long before it affected the family directly. And it's clear the message has been received at the church. People sanitize their hands before entering the cathedral. A priest delivers the Holy Communion wafers with tweezers. The church program tells the congregation: "Do not hide sick persons."

But Trokon Browne says those are relatively easy steps. What's harder, she says, is to keep a safe distance when a friend or family member is sick, perhaps with Ebola.

"I cannot see my husband sick and not touch him. Or I cannot see my child sick," she said. "Ebola might as well kill us. So it's still very hard. Trust me, it's still very hard."It's also hard for some people to accept the way Ebola appears to punish those who are trying to follow Christian teachings, Herman Browne said. That's why some in his congregation consider the disease demonic.

"Those who don't care and those who don't want to express their care are those who survive. Those who actually care are those who die," he said. "At the heart of it, for some of us with religious eyes, is an anti-care, anti-love message. And that can be very draining."

This time, the message is less harsh. Trokon wasn't infected. And her sick friend is one of the lucky ones who survived Ebola."

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 01:14 PM

The hospitals will use the supplies, regardless of what for.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: GUEST,#
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 01:20 PM

"If there is a bright side to this, it's that Africa and the World at large don't have to depend on this forum for solutions to the Ebola problem."

Amen to that!

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 02:37 PM

Never claimed anything like that.

I am saying that your idea is based on a false assumption-and that is that you'd create a useable surplus of protective garments by eliminating certain kinds of elective surgery.

Your basic assumption, that there is a shortage of protective garments, is also false. As Q established, the producers of these garments seem to be able to produce and deliver as many as are needed, where ever they are needed. Given that the US has committed $500 million dollars to this effort, and that other governments,including the affected ones, have committed funds, there appears to be no problem in paying for them.

So your idea, which, rather than your character or intellect, is what I am talking about, does not seem to be useful.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 03:21 PM

of some subet of international funds that were promised, I just read this morning that only one country has paid up..and that was Colombia, $100,000. Many millions are left unpaid. other countries have of course contributed in other ways or paid into other funds or directly shipped supplies. one country that seems to come through very rapidly in some disasters, such as earthquakes, seems to be turkey.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 03:25 PM

Much better argued.

Yet, there IS a shortage of all kinds of medical supplies for the region for the issue. That is a fact. Here are some sources for that:

Try < href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/ebola-outbreak/">this, or this, or even this.

And rich people in rich countries DO have unnecessary surgery for vanity. That is also undeniable. And why we have the term "vanity surgery" at all.

So there ARE supplies being used unnecessarily that are needed where the outbreak is. Not just barriers, but all kinds of medical supplies. That seems also to be just plain fact.

So trying to divert them to where they ARE needed does not seem to be a bad idea. Feasibility may be problematic, but that is a question of priorities.

I do understand that some people won't want to, and hospitals may not want to, and plastic surgeons probably won't want to, and people who want vanity surgery might not want to, and that one particular guest really doesn't want them to, but how can we know till we ask?

Maybe it would actually get some supplies where they are needed without having to ramp up production of said supplies, using more resources and causing more waste probably, but simply re-distributing the wealth that already exists. And maybe, as a side effect, it would get some rich people to rethink their priorities.

And, yet again, do you have a better idea?

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 01:38 PM

interesting post, bettynh. it would be good if compassion and carefulness could be achieved together, so as to limit infection.
btw, might you be the lady who is organizing a charity event at farningham on Friday ?.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: Bettynh
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 12:45 PM

Pete, I'm not that person. I'm in NH, USA and don't know any Farningham.

I think I read somewhere that the US military will include chaplains/counselors in their group. Certainly they will be useful both for the people in Liberia and the troops who will be witnessing this epidemic.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 05:04 PM

thanks bettynh. and i'm sure you're right.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 08:26 PM

Counselors, indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: Bettynh
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 08:07 AM

Hmm, are we looking at yet another cross-Atlantic misunderstanding? In the USA, a counselor counsels and emotionally supports a person. I understand that in the UK a counselor is a lawyer. I meant the first definition (or is there a spelling difference I missed?)

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 01:31 PM

i read from doctors without borders info that 75% people survived in Guinea I think..maybe Sierre Leone...with treatment. I am going to set up an automatic payment to them each month. Does anyone recommend any other charities?

We are lucky that for most of us we just can send money...please do if you possibly can.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 01:38 PM

Right, that was me, I meant people who help others with their emotions, not lawyers. Good point.

Subject: RE: BS: Ebola and the Missionaries
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 01:41 PM

I think the first definition will be understood here also, and especially in this context. I think in law, the term -counsellor for the defence- or similar is used.