guest nights and singaround clubs

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 07:46 AM

"The joy of folk singing is giving your own interpretation of a song and not somebody else's - that was the privilege performing in clubs gave"
I am well aware of this., no one can accuse me of being a copyist, whether you like what i do or not does not concern me, but ido not sound like a copy of anyone else I sound like myself.
once again you have confused an interpretation of someone elses post here
"Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 04:59 PM

"Brooks Robertson, Tommy Emmanuel, Joe Robinson, Richard Smith, Buster B Jones, Martin Taylor, Earl Klugh, Frank Vignola, Doyle Doykes, Pete Huttlinger, Chet Atkins, Jerry Reed, Steve Hicks," - do what they do.
" Messrs Simpson, Carthy and Gaughan" - do something entirely different.
A bit like saying Tiger Woods is better than David Beckham -- ie, pure horseshit.

" God help us if everybody aspired to Martin Simpson's "standards".
If they did, the folk clubs would be full, not dying on their arse."   
guest poster is not saying anyone should copy martin simpsons style, but should aspire to his standards of competence and being well rehearsed and well practised, which seems to be what both you and I are trying to say.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 06:04 AM

Cross-posted
"it is about being well rehearsed, turning up on time, having competence in performance."
Nothing to do with being professions - it's what we expected of every resident in the clubs we helped to run - most times we got it without having to pay for the privilege - wee called it commitment
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 05:59 AM

"have you heard martin simpson"
Yes I have - do not attempt to impose your own questionable tastes on others.
My point is - not particularly with Simpson but all those 'superstars' who made instrumental accompaniment an object in itself rather than what it what it claims to be - 'accompaniment'
I couldn't count the number of times I've wondered whether I had time to nip down for a quick pee while the singer is getting it off on those long, interminable and unnecessary guitar breaks, before getting on with the next verse.
I particularly remember one of the electric groups (Steeleye maybe) playing a reel in the middle of a long, narrative ballad - utterly ludicrous!
I find this obsession with superstars very reminiscent of all those somewhat pathetic talent programmes designed to get youngsters to emulate Justin, or Robbie or whoever happens to be the flavour of the month.
The clubs began to career downhill when they filled with Waterson wannabes, or Joanie clones or Martin mimickers and when singers stopped trying to sound like themselves.   
The joy of folk singing is giving your own interpretation of a song and not somebody else's - that was the privilege performing in clubs gave us.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 05:58 AM

jim,
you seem to be confused about professionaliam,since you have asked me, here is my opinion, it is not just about being paid, it is about being well rehearsed, turning up on time, having competence in performance.
These are qualities that Martin Simpson has, he is in my opinion a good singer and a fine guitarist and banjo player who generally speaking accompanies his songs tastefully , just my opinion.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 04:46 AM

have you heard martin simpson, Jim, listen to his accompaniment to masters of war.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 04:29 AM

" God help us if everybody aspired to Martin Simpson's "standards".
First step should be raising your own rather than aspiring to anybody elses
Clever-clever guitar work has ****** up more good folk songs than it has actually helped to accompany
"Jim Carroll semms to be confused about the interpretation of professionalism"
If you spent more time telling us how I and others you make personal attacks on were "confused" about what we believe and a bit less on snidey sideswipes, you might have something to say.
I have asked you many times to stop stalking and will continue to do so until you go and get help.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 04:09 AM

Guest clubs and singarounds serve different purposes. However in both cases they are there for people's enjoyment, and the enjoyment comes both from singing oneself and from listening to others. It seems to me that for singers to be poorly prepared and unrehearsed is putting their own pleasure in singing over that of the people they are inflicting it on.

The people who attend singarounds presumably enjoy them for what they are. Of course, 'singaround' does not in itself mean low standards, but in my experience all to often that is what you find. The examples offered in this thread and others are not isolated incidents.

It seems to me that the majority of folk clubs now operate a singaround format, and that guest clubs, and especially those offering more than the occasional guest, are very much a minority, no doubt for financial reasons. When I first started going to folk clubs some 40 years ago I could go to any club with some confidence that I could expect to hear good music performed to a good standard, from both floorsingers and guests. I no longer feel that is the case when a random folk club is more likely to be a singaround, and that a newcomer to folk is more likely than before to encounter poor singing and poor preparation. Is it any surprise that the folk clubs are in decline and in particular struggling to attract younger people?

These days I spend most of my time in tune sessions, where similar issues arise about playing from music. However there are now far more learning materials to teach technique and there are beginners' "slow sessions" where they can learn tunes and build confidence. As a result, whilst good playing cannot of course be guaranteed, my impression is that overall the general standard of playing on all instruments is far higher than it was 40 years ago - the reverse of the position with song.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Musket
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 03:19 AM

And we keep wandering into entertainment v a hobby of filling a folder with words and sharing them. Many people get entertainment from the latter whilst performances can also share interpretations of the same songs.

There is an overlap. Which is why people who go to singarounds to listen to others and share their performance (as used in other venues) get irritated when people are too busy flicking through their bloody folders to give a rats arse about the poor bugger singing or playing, regardless of ability.

There is another active thread on Mudcat at present where someone with a quiet instrument is asking for views on particular battery powered speakers to use to get their instrument to the same loudness as others. A couple of people have pointed out they dont go down well at some Singarounds.

This reminded me of a bloke recently with a rather loud chest expander who happily listens to a lady who, when her "turn" reads out the latest email joke circulars someone sends her yet he says he would leave if the poor bloke who recently bought a semi acoustic jazz guitar brought an amp.

As our American friends would say, go figure.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 05:56 PM

fr the record, I think the striving towards good performance is important,I believe good performance may be possible with crib sheets, but I have seen it achieved only occasionally, but I am sure it cn be achieved if people are willing to practise and work at it.
I feel that music stands can act as a barrier between the performer and the audience, but I can think of exceptions,I would say that eye contact and looking at an audience is even more important if the performer is using words on a music stand

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 05:47 PM

" God help us if everybody aspired to Martin Simpson's "standards".
If they did, the folk clubs would be full, not dying on their arse.    very good point, because Martin is professional talented and well practised, professionalism is not just about being paid it is about practised, well presented, performance.McColl was another eample of professionalism.
Jim Carroll semms to be confused about the interpretation of professionalism, but then he appears to be frequently confused, he also frequently attempts to make out people have written something that they have not written.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Airymouse
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 05:28 PM

"As Guitar skills improve, Folk becomes a very unsatisfactory form of music. It is dull,repetitive and offers the player limited ways to develop."
At first I thought melodeonboy was just trying to stir up trouble, trolling, to use fishy internet slang. Having read some of the responses, it seems to me that there really is a schism in your singarounds. The singarounds I have attended have all been at someone's house, where all participants are invited guests. Is it true that at the English public singarounds there are two types of participants: accomplished musicians (guitarists, not accompanists; trained singers who have sung for decades in choirs, chorales, musicals and so forth) and others, like me, who have grown up singing songs Cecil Sharp would have collected had he had the chance, but who have no significant musical training? I'm not saying that no true musician learned traditional music from its source. Clearly Benjamin Britten was an accomplished musician, and I would guess that he had first-hand knowledge of traditional English music, but insisting on both criteria will result in song circles of small radius. Obviously someone on my side of the divide can learn from listening to true musicians, so I guess the gedanken experiment is this. Imagine the 13th singer in the singaround is Mary Lomax. Would you be put off if she accompanied herself badly on her Lone Ranger guitar and sang, let's say, William Bluett?

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 05:22 PM

There's a bad case of inverted snobbery here - we'd be pissed off if a 'professional' stood up with a crib sheet - it's already been claimed by the Skibbereen Stalker that you get a better evening from a paid guest than you do from one of residents.
If the is now the case, it is a sign of deterioration in the clubs.
The club scene I came into was one of night after night of good resident evenings of the type a paid guest was incapable of giving us, even the best of them - feature evenings were probably the best examples of these.
The clubs survived on their residents - the guests were to give the residents an occasional break, and to catch someone who perhaps wasn't a ful time professions - great artists like Kevin Mitchell (industrial painter) or Walter Pardon (rural carpenter), spring to mind.
Folk singing was never a 'profession' it was an art created and performed by working people.
If these egotistic people who tell us that in order to have a good night you have to book him, her.... whoever, then we have lost an important platform for the talents of those of us who have to do proper jobs to earn a living - that was why the clubs were set up in the first place.
Professional has never meant best.
"do not mess with Jim Carroll, it wastes a lot of time"
What a coincidence - I was just talking about you!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 04:59 PM

"Brooks Robertson, Tommy Emmanuel, Joe Robinson, Richard Smith, Buster B Jones, Martin Taylor, Earl Klugh, Frank Vignola, Doyle Doykes, Pete Huttlinger, Chet Atkins, Jerry Reed, Steve Hicks," - do what they do.
" Messrs Simpson, Carthy and Gaughan" - do something entirely different.
A bit like saying Tiger Woods is better than David Beckham -- ie, pure horseshit.

" God help us if everybody aspired to Martin Simpson's "standards".
If they did, the folk clubs would be full, not dying on their arse.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 04:56 PM

Actually I said it (the feeling of arrogance)but it wasn't in response to anything anyone has said on this thread, it was just a notion that I had felt from personal experience after some clubs/singarounds that I had attended over the last coupe of years.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 04:36 PM

someone[s] above thought that others thought them arrogant because they were able to sing from memory. I don't recall that being said. however, it might have been suggested that the arrogance consisted in demanding that everyone else be able to, or do a lot of practising to attain ,to do the same. I certainly would like to always do so myself, but it is not the be all and end all of a convincing song delivery.
I also am not impressed by participants spending a lot of time looking through their binders or whatever while others are singing, and I agree that they would be better participants by some preparation beforehand. however, people are rarely just as we want, and a heavy handed approach seems counterproductive to me. you could have a club that only accepts a certain standard, but I suppose the higher you set it, the fewer there might be......and eventually some of the complainers might fall foul of it themselves !

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 03:45 PM

aye, shimrod life is short and we have a long time to be gone

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 03:32 PM

" ... and many of those you go on to describe probably think so because they have read their way through a crib sheet and received the "sympathy-thank-f**k-that's-over" applause at some singaround."

And as the years go by the, so aptly described, "sympathy-thank-f**k-that's-over" moments seem to be happening more and more frequently - to such an extent that I've begun to think: F**k this! I'm sure that there are better things for me to be doing on a Thursday night!

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 02:29 PM

"there ain't time enough in one lifetime to mess about with two things as a musician."
do not mess with Jim Carroll, it wastes a lot of time, you are much better off practising music.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 02:14 PM

well it depends what you want to do......

an in depth study of the rev gary davis won't help you to become Doyle Dykes.

on the other hand -check out Scott Ainslie masterly analysis of Robert Johnson' technique. you will become wise to the rhythmic complexity of the pieces.

the blind alleys are in ourselves. its up to us to get out of them, whatever discipline we are immersed in. johnson is a good case in point. he was immersed in a tradition, but he saw that as the basis of a creative opportunity.

my dad (who knew everything) always reckoned segovia could piss rings round hank marvin. and andres could do what the shads did - if only he wanted to.
however old age and wisdom has made me realise that dad was possibly wrong on this subject at least, you get good at doing what what you do by practicing. and there ain't time enough in one lifetime to mess about with two things as a musician.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 12:50 PM

your opinion big nige, but not my opinion

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 12:43 PM

Big Al, Steve Hicks is a great player and a damn good accompanist, but he could if he wanted earn a living as an Instrumentalist, he is that good. Richard Smith actually went West, Nashville to be exact, saw him only a few months ago. If you read my original comment I merely point out that Folk and Open Tuning is limiting as a direction for instrumentalists. As someone who started out playing Folk and then graduated to Jazz, I happen to think it's a valid point.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Musket
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 11:55 AM

"Simpson, Carthy and Gaughan are not even on the radar."

I'd get the Rediffusion bloke out to check your radar mate...

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 11:28 AM

Steve Hicks is one of my oldest friends. he's actually a pretty damn good accompanist - ask Lynn Gouldborn.. Richard Smith is also a good chap - although i haven't seen him since moving south.

Still we can all put together lists of names. don't i beg you, ignore the abuse. your comments richly deserved it. you were talking tripe, making yourself sound a fool.

guitar playing has many byways in which to express genius. strangely - none of the great re-imaginers of the guitar Django, Hendrix, Jansch, Scotty Moore, not to mention Robert Johnson (what a loser -user of open tunings he was) -none of them were really orthodox good. too busy being brilliant to follow a metronome and give a dotted crotchet its full value.!

we are so lucky to have lived in an age that has shown such a marvellous flowering of talent.

breathes there a soul so dull whose heart doesn't skip when Wizz Jones plays Weeping Willow Blues. acompanying is an area of guitar playing worthy of your appreciation, awe, and dedication.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 09:39 AM

Well Big Al, I'll ignore the abuse,its a little harsh I thought especially when you can't know the first thing about me or my guitar playing. For your edification however,let me list a few guitarists, who I think might blow away the three names mentioned above, Brooks Robertson, Tommy Emmanuel, Joe Robinson, Richard Smith, Buster B Jones, Martin Taylor, Earl Klugh, Frank Vignola, Doyle Doykes, Pete Huttlinger, Chet Atkins, Jerry Reed, Steve Hicks, and these are just the ones I can remember. All the above are instrumentalist pure and simple. I'm sorry but Messrs Simpson, Carthy and Gaughan are not even on the Radar.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 08:07 AM

"Professional" in as much as he/she is good enough, competent enough and entertaining enough to actually be able to make their living from doing something that they obviously love. Not all "Guests" booked will be regarded by the entire audience as being the bees-knees, different strokes for different folks, but in general a professional performer is someone that can teach us amateurs a thing or two.

Oh by the way Jack, it is the fault of the so-called "Folk Clubs" that have allowed anything to be played that this "tradition" that you are on about (And obviously care about as do both Jim Carroll and myself) has become so diluted as to now be almost irrelevant.

"People who sing usually believe the(y) can sing."

Of course they do, and many of those you go on to describe probably think so because they have read their way through a crib sheet and received the "sympathy-thank-f**k-that's-over" applause at some singaround.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Musket
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 08:00 AM

Oh I don't know. I am sat in a cafe in Scunthorpe. I reckon that's how Martin Simpson started....

The rest becomes rather tricky.

There certainly are better singers of MacColl songs than he and Peggy at a technical level, but as I said above, folk is an excellent example of putting character over pitch and other musical requirements. For my wedding a few years ago, we wanted to walk out to First Time Ever I Saw Your Face. Now, nostalgically for me, Peggy would be wonderful but for our guests and to provide good musical value, we played The Stereophonics version (with Jools Holland and his rhythm and blues orchestra.)

This gets to the nub of sharing songs as opposed to entertaining others. Or singaround v guest nights.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 07:44 AM

The "professional" Guest shows the standard that "should" be aspired to

Why? Chances are they know less about the tradition they're making a living from than some of the floor singers.

Being a pro means you can put on a show that people are willing to pay to see. That doesn't mean you're doing anything worth emulating for someone whose main focus is continuing a tradition.

God help us if everybody aspired to Martin Simpson's "standards".

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 07:29 AM

"MacColl was a performer and entertainer."

He most certainly was - a natural singer however - he wasn't - compare:

Dirty Old Town - Ewan MacColl

Dirty Old Town - Luke Kelly

Dirty Old Town - Paddy Reilly

James Henry Miller came up with some great songs, powerful songs, written in the traditional folk idiom - he never purposely wrote a "folk song" in his life (said so himself), he wrote songs about folk and many of his songs were taken up and became "folk songs" in exactly the manner that Jim Carroll has described as "the process" (Which has nothing to do with the song writer, but everything to do with how the song is received by others), his most critically acclaimed song, "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face", is most definitely NOT a "Folk Song". Not the first or last songwriter to have his own material performed better by others - Bob Zimmerman is another icon who produced great material but was no great shakes as a singer.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: johncharles
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 07:12 AM

people who sing usually believe the can sing. I can think of several on this and other threads, who I have either heard or seen, and who in my opinion would not get a turn if I was MC , yet they feel free to criticise others.
Of course my opinion could be flawed I may be a crap singer myself, who is to say.
As Burns said
"Oh, wad some Power the giftie gie us,
To see ourselves as others see us!"
john

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 06:50 AM

My apologies Mr. Charles I thought I had:

1: If you can't sing don't
2: If you are going to sing in public have the decency to actually learn the song.
3: To those who aspire to act as MC at singing sessions within a Folk Club setting then accept responsibility for "Quality Control" in allocating slots, if asked afterwards, "Why wasn't I given as many opportunities to sing as A or B?" answer truthfully, "Because your performance needs improvement - more practice at home."

Folk Clubs who operate by incorporating "Guest Nights" with floor spots ARE the life blood and support system of the genre of music we all say we enjoy and support. There must be an MC who on "Guest Nights" must ensure a standard. The "professional" Guest shows the standard that "should" be aspired to and that "professional" Guest "should" be "man" enough to stick around and talk to his/her audience - it is after all only showing respect, consideration and good manners. As someone else stated the singaround sessions run by these clubs should be viewed as the audition settings to showcase your talents for selection to support "Guest Artists" if "performing" is your thing - If not then sit back and enjoy, listen, observe & learn.

"Folk Clubs" who operate solely as "singaround" performance venues to provide opportunities for anybody and everybody irrespective of material, talent/ability are basically doomed from the start, because they are inspiring no-one, they are teaching nothing, all they are doing is celebrating mediocrity.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Musket
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 06:49 AM

Dick makes an interesting point. MacColl was a performer and entertainer. He did many of the things some here feel is wrong in a folk club setting, such as false accents that were not his own. He gave a performance because he could. An accomplished actor from his time with theatre workshop.

His style wasn't Jim from Salford singing a Scottish crofting song. He tried to put over how a crofter might have sung it. That is a wee bit different to what we would expect friends to sing in a pub. If you want to live a musical dream, put on a stetson and a drawl and go to a country and western night.

John. Our friend Teribus is good at telling us their opinion but not very good at identifying whether it is based on understanding the issue.... Form will out eh?

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: johncharles
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 05:58 AM

Interesting ideas by Teribus. However, he/she provides no solutions to the problems identified.
john

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 05:50 AM

I was still going to see MacColl whenever he sang, right up to the point where he stopped singing altogether"
MacColl was a very good performer, someone whose presentation is worth studying, and someone we can all learn from.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 05:48 AM

Jim Carroll - Date: 21 Oct 14 - 02:41 PM

Great post, particularly liked the last bit:

"There really is nothing to beat a friendly ear prepared to listen to you and comment on your efforts AND NOT TELL YOU YOU ARE THE NEXT BEST THING TO A DOUBLE JAMESON 12-YEAR-OLD."

Invaluable.

Also agree with the uncertainty over the classification of "natural singer" Or should that actually be someone with a "natural singing voice"?

To me there are those who have been "trained" to sing and those who have not but can "naturally" hold a note and hold a tune in their head - If you have to accompany yourself before you can sing anything - then you are not a singer.

No idea of the circumstances but singing in school "music lessons" tended to be fairly rigidly structured the basic form being singing in unison from a book, which would then lead on to performances as part of a school choir for those selected. That does not suit many, which could possibly account for the opinion you received. It also depends upon your early environment and upon whether or not you as a very small child happened to be subjected to listening to another person actually singing (Mostly Mothers here, my own having been a very good Gaelic singer). By environment I refer to how much singing was natural/normal in the community, in Scotland there are local festivals with "town songs" that are sung and expected to be sung by all each year and the old style of New Year Hogmanay "First Footing" where, if you crossed the threshold you were expected to "entertain" the company. It all helps you to find out fairly early if you can in fact sing or not.

A "natural voice" to me is someone who can sing unaccompanied, can hold a tune in their head, someone who can sing in key when accompanied and someone who sings in their own natural voice without feeling the need to put on fake accents when singing a song. That to me is a "natural singer".

I also liked the post that followed from Dave Sutherland - Date: 22 Oct 14 - 03:13 AM

I am a great fan of singers sessions/sing-arounds/sing-alongs as they provide great places to pick up new songs and hear different styles and genres of song - quite happy to just sit there and listen and they are far, far better "fishing grounds" than listening to big-name acts at festivals where they will do their thing (Which you can get from listening to their CDs).

As to songs I know off the top of my head I would say that I could rattle off somewhere between 150 to 200 without the need of a crib sheet, but there again I came to it late, and that is not being arrogant, merely stating what to me is a matter of fact.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 05:09 AM

"For the people who preen themselves about always singing from memory: how many songs can you do it with? There are hell of a lot of floorsingers whose repertoire is something like 10 songs, total. You're boring. Go away and find more. If using a book is what it takes, fine."

I'll stay anonymous because I don't want to be accused of "preening" but I think you can't be going to the right singarounds!   I've been keeping a note of what I've sung so that I don't repeat myself too much, particularly at the same venue. I started the list at the beginning of 2013, so far 238 different songs (though I've repeated a few as well). I've got a list of 75 waiting to be sung – but then there may be others: last night I sang one that someone reminded me of that wasn't on any of my lists. I've never sung from a crib sheet in my life. There are plenty more like me at the singarounds I go to.

True, there are those with a repertoire of 10 songs but they're at least as likely (probably more likely) to be those with a ring binder of plastic-wrapped songs that they leaf through before finding the same song they sang last month which they put on the table or music stand in front of them and then murder. They lack confidence because they don't know their songs so first they rely on the crib sheet and then they also rely on "tried and trusted" material. I tend not to go to those clubs any more. Variety is good but it's not an alternative to quality and knowing your material. If you can't be bothered to learn a song, don't sing it. Why not just make an effort sometimes?

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 04:48 AM

Of course the greatest fallacy believed by many is that everybody can sing, sorry but the sad fact of life is that that is patently untrue. People who cannot hold a note should not sing and should not be encouraged to do so anywhere other than in their own homes and if they are considerate on their own. On that score I totally agree with GUEST,Howard Jones - Date: 20 Oct 14 - 11:24 AM

Encouraging someone to sing in public, in a folk club setting at a "sing-around" or sing-along" is one thing, but if the product is dire then that has to be faced with honesty and dealt with - people in a public place (i.e. A Pub, be it function room, snug, lounge or public bar) will not come back if the standard is poor and the singing and/or playing is dire, you will not get "new-blood" in through the door. So in that I disagree totally with johncharles - Date: 20 Oct 14 - 12:30 PM when he says that applauding and encouraging low standards "Harms no-one" it does significant and long term harm as Jim Carroll has pointed out (Jim Carroll - Date: 21 Oct 14 - 08:31 AM) - Crap DOES indeed beget crap.

As far as crib sheets and folders stuffed full of lyrics go, there is no evidence at all that they serve as aids. To most, as has been pointed out in this thread by others, it stems from pure idleness, indicated by the fact that there is over weeks no signs of any improvement, even although the same songs are repeated, nothing seems to stick and the quality of rendition remains "crap" - If you do not know the song then don't bloody well sing it - sing along with it by all means but do not try to "lead" it or perform it solo, to do so is an insult to the company, and a dis-service to "your" club.

Totally agree with the sentiment expressed by GUEST,Shimrod - Date: 21 Oct 14 - 04:51 AM

Another point taken up by GUEST,Howard Jones - Date: 21 Oct 14 - 09:49 AM related to the level of skill of "young musicians":

"this is happening at a time when the performance standards and technical skills of those young musicians and singers who do put in the work are extraordinarily high."

How many of those extremely skillful "young musicians" are studying their art on a university course? Where oddly enough, your performances throughout your course are critically examined and commented on, and you do have to constantly practice, show improvement and where you are not allowed to "perform" (i.e. play in front of anyone) until you have reached a certain standard.

To Jack Campin who remarked on this in his post of 21st October - 11:58 AM - If the older people you are referring to are the "crib sheet entertainers" only interested in satisfying their own need to "perform" then as they cannot be bothered to learn from their "crib sheets", how the hell can you expect them to learn from these budding and blossoming "young musicians"?

Totally disagree with Jack Campin - Date: 21 Oct 14 - 11:58 AM when he implies that the majority of those who sing from memory only have a limited repertoire - that accusation is more likely to be leveled at the "singer/songwriter", a number of whom who take an arrogant pride in ONLY singing their compositions and find that most of their output is not really all that well received and then have to trot out their own "ten greatest hits" time and time again - they then complain about difficulty in getting bookings in clubs and festivals - primarily because of their own self-restricted repertoire that everyone has heard time and time again - very boring.

From GUEST,ST - Date: 21 Oct 14 - 12:19 PM we got the following which raised a fairly important point:

"If it's concerned with the songs, good standards, people having learned songs before they try to perform them and people constantly trying to improve their performance then some will be excluded in some way. They may simply feel left out or, if the singaround has an MC, they may not get asked to sing, or given fewer spots. I think that's fair enough, I wouldn't expect to go to a blues club or a jazz club and expect to be asked to perform."

The point being that if you would, as an amateur, pay that respect and acknowledge your own limitations with respect to a "Blues" or "Jazz" club then why not a "Folk Club"?

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 03:46 AM

Back to the title of the thread.
I think one of the developments of technology has contributed to the change of attitude to guest nights.
We used to go each week regardless - and trust the judgement of the organisers. Now - we look on Utube and see if we like the guest - and sometimes we don't go.
last night - I looked on utube - a perfectly nice singer - but each of his clips sounded the same. A stay at home night.
FloraG

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 03:13 AM

Well said Jim. I am starting to get a bit worried the more these type of threads perpetuate that singing from memory seems to come across as a sign of arrogance. Over the last forty odd years, having been a resident at four clubs and a weekly regular at a couple of others, and more than often been asked to start the night, if you take things seriously you can amass a fair amount of songs over the years. Although I don't sing out these days anything like I used to do I still reckon that I could perform a couple of hundred from memory and if I thought about it for longer maybe a few more. Is that being boastful? - I don't thinks so; actually it is a paltry return for the number of active years and the opportunity for learning songs.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Musket
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 03:05 AM

Singer? Guitarist? All relative.

I am told I can sing. However I could never sing opera as I freely admit that there is a difference between following a tune and leading it a la opera or baroque for instance. My voice is a wee bit flat but no matter because those who like my singing mean the tone not the pitch.

If you listen to ten different recordings of Vivaldi's Gloria, you could never tell the difference between the soloists in Et in Terra Pax but each would be wonderful and pitch perfect. Whereas some of our favourite folk singers would never get through first audition for a professional choir, yet we recognise their voice immediately.

All relative and to say folk is limiting..,. Well, you've been reading those for whom folk is a narrow traditional field.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 02:09 AM

bignige. your ignorance on the subject of guitar playing and guitar players is profound.

on one level, its a bit silly arguing with opinions delivered from such a lofty height of unreality.

on the other hand - you should fit in well with Jim and his pals...

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 06:17 PM

Melodeonboy, I think your examples illustrate my point exactly. All the people you mention are open tuned players, a very limited formatt for playing the guitar. They are all really only accompanists not guitarists.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 02:41 PM

People who are not "natural singers" (never sure about that one) just have to work at it a bit harder, unfortunately
I was one of those who was told at school that I wold never make a singer while I had a hole in my arse -I grew up believing that util I got in with the wrong crowd
There really is nothing to beat a friendly ear prepared to listen to your and comment on your efforts AND NOT TELL YOU YOU ARE THE NEXT BEST THING TO A DOUBLE JAMESON 12-YEAR-OLD.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 02:21 PM

all really great singers inhabit the song, and know how they can sing every note and every word. then they surprise themselves and the audience with unexpected flashes of creativity.

however singing is a natural function like walking. a lot of the people singing are not great singers.

we have to face that fact. it brings problems.....life is never simple.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: melodeonboy
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 01:30 PM

"As Guitar skills improve, Folk becomes a very unsatisfactory form of music. It is dull,repetitive and offers the player limited ways to develop."

Really? Ever heard of Martin Carthy, Martin Simpson or Dick Gaughan, to name but a few?

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 01:16 PM

"how many songs can you do it with?"
I stopped singing regularly around 20 years ago and within the last couple of years I decided to re-start as the opportunity has now presented itself
At the height of my singing I had a repertoire of 300 plus songs and a basic repertoire of about 50 which I could pull together after a quick couple of sing-throughs - the rest took a little more work.
Those I never got to sing regularly (say once every year), I virtually had to re-learn each time, but I found they came back easily enough.
When I restarted, I found I had all but forgotten most of them, so I made myself a working repertoire of around twenty, which I worked up ober a couple of months, kept them as stand-bys and set to work on the rest - I'm now back to around 100 from my old repertoire and have added about a dozen new ones which I found I half knew from listening to others sing them on albums or way back in the clubs.
I have a test piece yet to tackle, a superb, longing Irish version of Banks of Newfoundland which I have only heard sung a couple of times - the acid test.
My short-term memory is not of the best, but my long term ability to recall seems to have shortened considerably.....now where was I?
I was still going to see MacColl whenever he sang, right up to the point where he stopped singing altogether.
Uncharacteristically, he had begun to forget words, but whenever he did he managed to bluff convincingly.
When we asked him about this, he said that the secret was to learn the song then learn the story of the song so you could re-tell it in prose, while using some of the verse lines interspersed - this could be done while you were not actually working on the song - in the car or around the house.
There were all sorts of other tricks, the favourite being to sing a song you wanted to sing publicly at double speed.
I don't believe there is any set method, it's just a matter of finding out what works best for you.
The Singers Club committee asked the main residents not to repeat a song over a set period (depending on the size of their repertoire - sort of like a golf handicap I'm tole (hate the game)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 01:07 PM

in my own experience, though I have the music stand, there are some songs which, because I have been singing them a few year, I don't need any aid. but not wanting to sing the same songs all the time, to regulars, I keep writing, and eventually those songs might not need the aid either.
I wonder whether it might be the case that songs that are traditional are memorized over the years, and very little new material gets added.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 12:21 PM

Well said Jack Campin. I suspect some of these self righteous gaurdians of whats right and wrong may not be as intesting as they think. My experience of singarounds and sessions, which admittedly is not great, is that most attendees are there to sing themselves and are not particulaly interested in what others do. In short its a rather narrow world of singers, singing to singers.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,ST
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 12:19 PM

I think one probably has to accept that you can't have a singaround/club that both expects and achieves high performance standards and consistently lets anyone sing/play anything they want regardless to of ability and application.

If it's concerned with the songs, good standards, people having learned songs before they try to perform them and people constantly trying to improve their performance then some will be excluded in some way. They may simply feel left out or, if the singaround has an MC, they may not get asked to sing, or given fewer spots. I think that's fair enough, I wouldn't expect to go to a blues club or a jazz club and expect to be asked to perform.

If your singaround is primarily a social gathering, then such standards matter less, you're not primarily there for that. However, singarounds and clubs are "public" places so, personally, I don't think that any of them can escape from the need to consider what is done there a "performance" to some extent at least.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 11:58 AM

For the people who preen themselves about always singing from memory: how many songs can you do it with?

There are hell of a lot of floorsingers whose repertoire is something like 10 songs, total.

You're boring. Go away and find more. If using a book is what it takes, fine.

A minute repertoire of highly polished stuff is what they invented CD players for.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 11:35 AM

'Perhaps for you the social element makes up for this'

Actually Howard, you have probably hit the nail bang on the head as far as I'm concerned, I do look at singarounds as more of a social thing, which would also explain our different opinions on 'performance' and 'audience'.

I would also hope that you are right and those taking part would strive to do their best, but at risk of sounding judgemental, I see a lot of folks at singarounds who either lack the technical ability or the skill to improve, (or perhaps the motivation, if it is something they just pop along to once a month) so they are what they are, and we either have to accept that or choose not to go to that particular singaround.

John